Rob Bowman on the Trinity Part 2

One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective view .1 Mormonism sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome of this additional viewpoint on Mormonism under hospital material founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Dr. Rob Bowman. Rob has written a number of articles on the subject of the Trinity. Even a book dealing with it, although Rob the book that you wrote on the Trinity deals more with Jehovah's Witnesses and their denial of the teaching of the Trinity is that not correct that's correct. In fact, one of the things that I bring to the subject of Mormonism and the Trinity is an awareness of how various religious groups have distorted or denied the doctrine of the Trinity, not just dealing with one group, but with several that gives me a little. Interesting perspective when a group like Mormonism or somebody in Mormonism like Dan Peterson says well we agree with a lot of what you're saying here.

We just disagree with this one point over here being aware of how different religions have revised Christian theology in the area of the doctrine of the Trinity has given me. Maybe a special sensitivity to the way certain people think that their understanding something the same way when they're really not. And that's what we're doing today. Yesterday we began looking at an article by Dr. Daniel Peterson, you mentioned to him.

He's a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University and he is as I think I said yesterday. He's kind of the go to guy when it comes to defending the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He wrote an article back in April 2018.

I admit it's not a new article but yet this topic is not really even new to Dr. Peterson is written on this before but as you mentioned yesterday, Rob, this is kind of a summary of some of the other things that he said about the doctrine of the Trinity, but what caught my attention, especially in this one.

When you read the opening lines from this article defending the faith where the disagreement lies that's the title. If you are the average Christian reading this I cannot see how you would not walk away thinking that he is saying that he agrees with everything that we would agree about the tritium and let me explain myself to her listeners. He goes through five points. He says traditional mainstream trinitarianism rests upon five propositions.

Yesterday we read them and I want to recap, in case of the didn't catch yesterday show one.

The father is God to the son is God. Three the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is God for the father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is not the father.

There is one God and only one God. I don't think most Christians would deny what he says in those five points.

But as you were saying yesterday. Towards the end of the show we have to understand what they mean when they use these particular words one at you elaborate on that.

Yes, the sentences that he gives to express the five basic propositions of the doctrine of the Trinity are good sentences.

The problem is is that Mormonism means different things by most of the words that her and Ali sentences and the key word here really is God Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity do not mean the same thing when they talk about God. They don't understand God in the same way.

So a big problem with this entire article and and it with much of the discussion. I am afraid that goes on between traditional Christians and Mormons is that they want to talk about the doctor, the Trinity, without bringing in other aspects of Christian theology, and you really can't do that and be accurate because the Trinity is an aspect of the Christian doctrine of God what he is.

Nature is what he's like and that needs to be fully brought into the discussion. In order to understand the real big differences between what Mormonism says about the father son and Holy Ghost and what Orthodox Christianity says what he says in this After reading the five points. As I mentioned, both mainstream Christians in Latter Day Saints except all five statements and as you said those statements certainly need to be clarified if were going to really understand each other otherwise will do what a lot of people do when they're talking with her Mormon friends, a talk pass them just assuming that they're saying the same things when they're really not that of course becomes problematic. Then he goes on in that paragraph Dr. Peterson says they have little alternative since all five are clearly scriptural take number five, for example, the number five was, there is one God and only one God Dr. Peterson when he says take number five for example sites. Deuteronomy 6 for here oh Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and then Rob.

He also puts in parentheses compare Isaiah 44 646 nine Mark 1229 and James 219. In the New Testament. Those are passages that I've often presented to Latter Day Saints and I have found that most of the time when you get to the Isaiah passages. For instance, Isaiah 44 six that they will try to say well that's only referring to idols only referring to idols and certainly it doesn't speak to the oneness of God as traditional Christians would understand it. Now let me just go to Isaiah 44 six and this is what it says I'm reading from and I would I like to do this because it kinda takes that argument away. That is, the Bible is not translated correctly but this is the Joseph Smith translation that I reading from right now, which is very similar to the King James where it says in Isaiah 44, six thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts, I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

Now Joseph Smith in this passage, he touches the word. Besides which, in the King James is beside so he puts in S on there but the meaning is basically the same. I'm the first time, the last, and besides me there is no God. Okay, most Mormons is that let's talk about idols, but Dr. Peterson doesn't seem to take that position. Is he well he doesn't say what he thinks that verse means in context.

All he's doing is saying that Mormons agree that there is only one God. The problem here of course is what do you mean when you say there's only one God, now I have found Jehovah's Witnesses say they agree with these verses, Mormons say they agree with these verses, Unitarians say they agree with these verses, and yet they have radically different concepts of deity radically different concepts of the relationship between the father and the son. They're not the same belief systems at all and they all have to understand a verse like Isaiah 44, six differently even though they are going to affirm that they agree with it. Many people don't seem to understand. Just because people say that they agree with the statement in the Bible doesn't mean they believe the Bible there believing whatever belief system they have and then they are in many cases simply accommodating the biblical texts to what they've already decided to believe and that's certainly the case here because Mormonism as it developed through Joseph Smith's later theology completely abandoned the biblical monotheism that we see in passages like Deuteronomy 64 and Isaiah 44, six, it no longer believes that doctrine now it's stuck with the words and like other anti-Trinitarian theological systems it's stuck with the words and so it tries to accommodate those words those biblical passages to what their system of theology now teaches, but they don't really believe the Bible anymore. There believing their theological position that they hold on other grounds and then there trying to make the verses fit and I think I we can backup this accusation. It is an accusation I can backup this accusation. Just as we go along will see as we talk about what Mormonism actually teaches that they don't believe the statements at all. He uses Isaiah 44 six. But if you look at verse eight and Mrs. in my experience in talking to Latter Day Saints a difficult passage for a Mormon to explain when verse eight says is there a God besides me. Yea, there is no God. I know not any right doesn't become difficult for the Latter Day Saints position because if you believe that the father the son and the Holy Ghost are three gods within the one God had in there one in purpose and that's often how they explain it, wouldn't you think that these three gods in the one Godhead are unified in purpose must know each other.

You would think. And just to make matters even worse in traditional Mormon doctrinal understanding the speaker here is Christ is Jesus Christ the son, who is identified as Yahweh or Jehovah in the Old Testament Africa's verse six says, thus says the Lord. And that's Jehovah in, or Yahweh in Hebrew the King of Israel. He's the one that says these things. He's the one that says is there a God beside me. I don't even know of any now in Mormonism Jehovah. The sun isn't subordinate deity under the rule of heavenly father who was identified as Elohim in the Old Testament is different God who is a superior God over Jehovah. So how can Jehovah be saying to Israel.

I don't know of any God besides me. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In the context of Mormon theology.

You would think so, but that's also simple to us but I've often find that a lot of Latter Day Saints. They do tend to stumble over this and they can't really explain it. And again, going back to what we would call the tri-theistic view of the Godhead. You would think that certainly these three gods would have knowledge of each other and recognize each other if they are in fact one in purpose as LDS members insist, and I would say even as the LDS church insists I want to continue looking at what Dr. Peterson is said about this very quickly.

He also goes on in this paragraph he says in the New Testament. First Corinthians 86 also plainly teaches that there is only one God, though it actually seems to distinguish Jesus Christ as the Lord from that one God the father, a formulation that seems more congenial to the Latter Day Saints view than to Orthodox court." Trinitarianism could you talk about that very quickly before we in the show yes well to be very quick here what Paul says here in first Corinthians 86 takes the words the language of Deuteronomy 6, for which we mentioned earlier, the Lord our God is one Lord, and it applies this affirmation of monotheism to both the father and the son. So one God, one Lord, all of that language comes right out of Deuteronomy 64 which was the Jewish creed. So what Paul is doing is he saying we are monotheists.

There is only one God and we see this one God in the one God the father and in the one Lord Jesus Christ. These are not two different deities. This is the one God of Israel, now known to include the person of Jesus Christ were talking to Dr. Robert Bowman if you want to see more of what he is written on this and other subjects.

I encourage you to go to Robert Bowman.net Robert Bowman PO WMA and dot net and you'll get of variety of topics that Rob has written on tomorrow. We want to continue looking at this article by Dr. Daniel Peterson defending the faith where the disagreement lies.

Thank you for listening. If you would like new information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you will join us again as we look at another viewpoint is