Harold B. Lee and Forgiveness Part 2

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Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 as a research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. So glad you can be with us for this addition viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Eric Johnson.

My colleague at MRM yesterday. We began looking at a book that was written by Harold B. Lee the 11th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If the book titled stand ye in holy places. First of all, Eric is this book really all that important. Even though it was written by the president of the LDS church.

Is it really all that significant. How would an latter-day St. answer that question. I think a lot of Latter Day Saints might say well he's a dead prophet. So what is he say it doesn't really matter to me but I meant to say that the church leaders considered it to be so important that in 1995, the first presidency made up of Gordon B. Hinckley is the president and counselors Thomas Monson and James Faust gave away a copy of this book made in leather. It's a very expensive book and you can't buy it unless you want to go on eBay. It was never for sale but given away to the church, employees, and there was a little note along with a Christmas card with the picture of the first presidency on it. This little note says this second paragraph there's two paragraphs and it says please enjoy this special edition of stand ye in holy places by Pres. Harold Bailey the 11th president of the church.

Then it says the teachings of this valiant servant of the Lord are timeless and will be most helpful to all who humbly seek the Son of Man, 1995 and they're saying that what he taught was timeless and I would agree if he's using Scripture as he does to support his points. Latter Day Saints going to have to show how he has misinterpreted the Scriptures that is using which were in a talk about today.

As you mentioned you use the phrase dead prophet. We've talked about this on a number of occasions on the show out and just to say it again.

If you're new to this program. We personally view that argument that you don't. A dead prophet with a living prophet has been really one of the silliest notions you could ever imagine for a number of reasons. One reason being, why wouldn't you want to compare what a dead prophet in the Mormon church is said to the living prophet if they're all getting their information from the same source.

Why would there be a contradiction. The fact that there are many times contradictions between current leaders and past leaders is because they're not getting their source from God, but yet they're implying to the membership that they are and that's a deception that needs to be exposed and so I would say for that reason alone we have a problem with that type of teaching don't pit a dead prophet with a living prophet but then we also have another problem and that is many of the church manuals that the church produces there full of quotes from dead prophets. So even though you might have some members of the church including Ezra Taft Benson, who in his 14 fundamentals and following the prophet speech, who said not to pit the dead prophet with a living prophet.

He's been inconsistent and I would guarantee you if you go back and you look at the writings of Ezra Benson, he too often quotes dead prophets so it's even hypocritical for a Latter Day Saints who's written a book.

For instance, and included quotes from dead prophets to say you shouldn't listen to dead prophets of the wire you quoting them for Pete's sake, you should be quoting them at all.

Just put them in the past. Ignore them never to go to them again, but as I said many of the manuals that the church produces is chock-full of quotes from dead prophets and there was manual that was produced in 2012 called teachings the presence of the church, Harold B. Lee. That book was studied by the church in 2013 that's not that long ago. These quotes came from a number of works but of vast number came from stand ye in holy places.

I think there's another reason why we need to seriously consider this book to be authoritative. The reason why I want to talk about this particular section of his book, beginning on page 184 is because he says some things that I think are contradictory and on that explain the we get to that point, but certainly there's a lot of things that are in this particular part of his book that need to be examined. But yesterday we were relating the story that Harold B. Lee tells on page 184, when he is talking with his second counselor Marion G. Romney, let's read that paragraph again Lester B listeners today that did not hear yesterday show because it's important to hear what this story includes some years ago president Marion G.

Ronnie and I were sitting in my office. The door opened and a fine young man came in with a troubled look on his face and he said, brethren, I am going to the temple for the first time tomorrow.

I have made some mistakes in the past and I have gone to my bishop and my stake president, and I have made a clean disclosure of it all and after a period of repentance and assurance that I have not returned to those mistakes. They have now it judge me ready to go to the temple, but brethren, that is not enough.

I want to know and how can I know that the Lord has forgiven me also.

Okay he says I have made some mistakes in the past and I have gone to my bishop and my stake president, and I have made a clean disclosure of it all and after a period of repentance and assurance that I had not returned again to those mistakes.

They have now it judge me ready to go to the temple this idea of a period of repentance. Now what is that mean to us that are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because something like that doesn't even make sense to us. But remember, as I mentioned yesterday, the church claims that it is a restoration of how the Christian church believed and operated in ancient times did the first century church.

The church that we read about in the book of acts was there really up. Of repentance and certainly with their beautiful period of repentance that would prevent you from going to the temple. We don't see anything like that in the New Testament, though we do see Christians occasionally going to the temple. It wasn't to perform endowments as Latter Day Saints would believe today.

Actually the temple as it was understood in the Old Testament as well as the new was a place to go to offer sacrifices you mentioned yesterday Eric because they recognize their sinfulness if they recognize their sinfulness. Why in the world would you prevent somebody from going to the temple and Old Testament context. You wouldn't I would think that the Rabbi would encourage you to go there if you recognized your need to repent of any particular sent. They wouldn't prevent you from going to the temple.

So this obviously should strike us as being very odd or even absurd in light of what the New Testament teaches forgiveness in the New Testament was always instantaneous money just give you a couple of examples in acts chapter 16 we have the Philippian jailer when he realized that Paul and Silas might have escaped in his life was going to possibly be lost.

He was about ready to commit suicide and pulses, don't harm yourself. We are all here. Verse 29 of acts 16 says the jailer called for lights rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked Sirs, what must I do to be saved, they replied, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved you and your household will turns out that they end up getting baptized in fact it says that they all came to believe in God. He and his whole household. Verse 34 we see the same thing happened in acts chapter 2 at Pentecost when Peter gives a sermon. 3000 people become Christians, we see this in acts chapter 10 the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost and that they are speaking in tongues and then they get baptized continually throughout the New Testament.

It's instantaneous. There's not a time period that you have to work out for you to ever receive full forgiveness of sins that the jailer was told that if he believed he would be saved. Where do we get any understanding that that was only a partial salvation, it was understood to be a full salvation, full blessings, you might say of what God gives those who come to faith. Now you might say but he went and got baptized will of course he did. If you look at the book of actual find that that was commonplace when a believer came to confess Christ, they were baptized in water now in the 21st century context.

A lot of our churches don't do it quite that way anymore. We have a day set aside for that but nowhere do we believe that if they were to die from that point of confession to the time they were baptized if they were to die in between that time but somehow they would be lost now. There may be some that hold to that, I don't see any scriptural support for that at all. Why because it's our faith that saves us, but when this man talks about after a period of repentance. Now they say I can go to the temple this individual realizes going to the temple is not enough, and I knew what I have to commend him for that. I don't know who this individual is, of course, but how many Latter Day Saints probably look at their ability to go to the temple as a everything is okay. Even though you were to ask them what are you sure all your sins are forgiven because Eric you've done a lot of outreaches that temple open houses and one of the things that you like to do is you will go around in the neighborhoods and you will drop off our temple handouts at the homes that are around the temple because Latter Day Saints do tend to buy houses that are around the temple.

They just do that well in places like Idaho and Utah.

Naturally, these bidders going to be a lot of Latter Day Saints anyway. But when you talk to people at these homes, because sometimes you will have conversations with them. Do they sound like they are assured of their forgiveness. I do not meet forgiven Mormons. They know that they are not forgiven until they have kept all the commandments of God and they know they're not.

I can't tell you how many times I have talked Latter Day Saints. Even at their doors or in front of the temple and asked them if they were to die right now if they would go to the celestial kingdom and they say will know I'm trying I'm doing my best. When you haven't done everything you're supposed to do and they admit that they're not, so I don't think that Latter Day Saints understand what it means to truly be forgiven their striving for that. They're doing their best and that's admirable but that's not what the Bible requires believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Jesus talks about this in the book of John chapter 10 we see this talked about in the book of Romans we see this talked about in the book of Galatians is not based on you keeping the commandments. It's based on you receiving the free gift offered by Christ and what you just said concurs with what is in their scripture in doctrine and covenants section 1, verse 32. Nevertheless, he that repentance and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.

There's the order you repent, you do the commandments and then you're going to be forgiven.

So this is why they don't have that kind of assurance not as I said before, I commend this individual in the story of realizing just because he's going to the temple. It's not enough. There are a lot of Latter Day Saints thing that is the goal. Once you've received your temple recommend, and you've proven to your Bishop that you're doing everything he requires of you off of his checklist and folks yes there is a checklist.

I know they act like there isn't, but there is you have to be doing certain things in order to get the temple recommend, or your little card that gives you permission to go into a temple and participate in the endowment ceremony and be married in the temple and do baptisms for the dead, so forth and so on.

This individual gentleman wants to have an assurance that he is forgiven.

The problem that we run into is how Harold B.

Lee answers this person's question and that's working to talk about in tomorrow's program. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding his research ministry.

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