Truths without the Truth—How Christians Should View Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Et Al?

Without help. Christensen view Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others like them.

That is a topic will discuss today right here in the Christian worldview radio program for the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christian and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God in faith in Jesus Christ, I'm David Wheaton, the host of the program website is the Christian world you.there is a pushback taking place against the ever-increasing totalitarian impulse of the left which seeks to redefine all that God has established regarding marriage sexuality, gender, individuality, freedom of belief, thought and speech which punishes or quote deep platforms.

Those who dare dissent leading this pushback are popular thought leaders such as Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, and others who hold tremendous sway with millions of followers who wash their speeches or videos and read their books.

They resonate with people from all walks of life. Conservatives and liberals, libertarians, and yes Christians who see the tyranny of political correctness and identity politics. These men espouse degrees of truth, but none believe in the way and the truth and the life. Jesus Christ, in other words, they each have an intelligent and highly developed worldview, but not a biblical one that includes an accurate view of God, man Christ and redemption. So how should Christian view these men in the front lines of the battle with cultural Marxism, which seeks to topple the oppressor of Christianity or simply make it irrelevant are they helpful allies are actually distractions to the gospel for joining us today is Travis Allen.

He is the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

He was the featured speaker at the Christian real you conference in 2016. He was also a former managing director of Grace to you and a former Navy seal before we get to the interview with Travis. Let me just give some background on who Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are in case you haven't heard of them are not familiar with them. This from Jordan Peterson's website. Dr. Jordan Peterson was 56 years old, is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto is a clinical psychologist and the author of the multimillion copy bestseller 12 rules for life. It was number one for nonfiction in 20 in 2018. In the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, the Netherlands, Brazil, and Norway, and now slated for translation into 45 languages he lectured to more than 200,000 people across North America, Europe and Australia. In one of the most well attended book tours ever mounted his videos on YouTube featured Dr. Peterson's University in public lectures has 1.5 million subscribers with 70 million views his videos derived from his online content, but others have been viewed more than 400 million times his podcast with more than 50 episodes has attracted 750,000 listeners per episode with 60 million downloads. His public lecture tour.

The 12 rules for life tour has now covered more than 70 cities drawing 200,000 ticketed attendees now to his worldview. He is known for being against political correctness will get more into that today against identity politics from laws forcing the use of preferred pronouns for people who are transgender. He's against the push to emasculate men, the New Yorker, wrote his central message is a thoroughgoing critique of modern liberal culture which he views as suicidal in his eagerness to upend age-old verities and he has learned to distill his wide-ranging theories into pithy sentences, including one that has become is de facto catchphrase sort yourself out.

Paco politically Peterson to describe myself as a classic British liberal in a stated that he is commonly mistaken to be right wing. He is a philosophical pragmatist in the matter of his religious beliefs and whether or not he is Christian Peterson has emphasized that his conceptualization of Christianity is probably not what it is generally understood, stating that the ethical responsibility of a Christian is to imitate Christ for him.

Meaning quote something like you need to take responsibility for the evil in the world as if you were responsible for it to understand that you determine the direction of the world weather is toward heaven or hell unquote. When asked if he believes in God. Peterson responded, quote I think the proper response to that is no. But I'm afraid he might exist unquote writing for the spectator. Tim Lott said Peterson draws inspiration from Young's philosophy of religion Carl Young and holds views similar to the Christian existentialism of Soren Kierkegaard and Paul Tillich.

Lott also said Peterson has respect for Taoism as a views nature is a struggle between order and chaos and posits that life would be meaningless without this duality. Peterson is married and they have one daughter and a son.

Now that was from probably from Jordan Peterson's website, probably from the New Yorker, probably from Wikipedia. Now let's move on to Ben Shapiro, the second person will be talking about today on our topic of truth without the truth how Christian should view Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. This is from Wikipedia, Ben Shapiro is an American conservative political commentator, writer and lawyer. He's 34 years old. He is written seven books the first in 2004, titled, brainwashed how universities indoctrinate America's youth. Shapiro begin writing this book. At age 17.

Also at age 17. Shapiro became the youngest nationally syndicated columnist in the United States. Shapiro writes columns for creators syndicate in Newsweek serves as editor-in-chief of the daily wire, which he founded and host the Ben Shapiro show a daily political podcast and radio show skipping two grades third and ninth grades, Shapiro one from Walter Reed middle school to yeshiva University high school of Los Angeles where he graduated in the year 2008 16 he graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from the University of California, Los Angeles in 2004 at age 20 and then cum laude from Harvard Law school in 2007 he begin the daily wire in 2015 he is the editor-in-chief as well as host of the online political pop podcast, the Ben Shapiro show which is broadcast every weekday. As of November 20 17th. The podcast was downloaded 10 million times each month. Now to his views.

Shapiro's views them and describe the New York Times as quote extremely conservative. Shapiro, however, in a 2016 interview with the Rubin reports Dave Rubin describes himself as basically a libertarian. He accuses contemporary liberals of creating an imaginary hierarchy of victimhood and glorifying perceived victims, leading to identity politics has been called the voice of the conservative millennial movement.

He has three sisters.

He married more Toledano, an Israeli citizen of Moroccan dissent and she is a doctor to get a David daughter and a young son and they both practice Orthodox Judaism.

So with that at some background on Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. Let's get to the first segment with pastor Travis Allen. As we discussed how Christians should view men like these and others who hold viewpoints that we can sometimes agree with. In light of the fact that they don't believe in Christ or the all sufficiency bottom-line truth of Scripture, Travis, it's great to have you back on the Christian Rove your radio program. Thank you for taking the time today. I like to start out by reading a couple paragraphs from the most recent edition of the Schwartz report and the starts out by saying the first time you up to him or her. Jordan Peterson speak in a YouTube video. He thought his voice sounded like Kermit the frog's and like Kermit, this 56-year-old University of Toronto psychology professor was a skilled communicator hands gesticulating and browse furloughing as he spoke about personal responsibility and bearing one's suffering. At that time timber a 30-year-old data analyst from the Netherlands was battling suicidal thoughts, desperately clicking through streams of motivational videos for inspiration to live on and he says he found it in Jordan Peterson and that video Peterson was unpacking the meanings behind the biblical story of Noah and the flood be prepared. He warned become storms of tragedies are coming life, he declared, is quote really complex short finite full of suffering and beyond. You it doesn't take much to suffer, but if you lie around, merely suffering then it accumulates returns and the Dragon of chaos.

It waits until you're not at your best, and then eats you timber was transfixed every word from Peterson struck close to heart. He had been doing exactly that long depressed mulling over how he had gotten the job he wanted, but still couldn't find meaning in it. He was struggling with marriage and financial issues tension with his parents. He felt unhappy and directionless until he heard Peterson's challenge, pick up your cross and walk up the hill and use of profanity before saying cross. Yes life is painful and unjust. Sorting to do about it accepted voluntarily and try to transform as a consequence, it's a message that falls far short of the gospel view the writer of this column writes but it spoke to Tim or nobody have been able to reach him and his darkness not even psychologist or his baby daughter, but for some reason Peterson did. The way Peterson use biblical stories to illustrate his points made sense to him. Mystery one more paragraph your Peterson's three hour lecture center on ideas such as one all human beings are capable of unspeakable evil, especially the name of good. Number two change starts with the individual. Number three ancient stories from the Bible to Egyptian mythology hold profound still applicable. Truth about human nature and life Travis, I just give you a little snippet of who Jordan Peterson is will get into Ben Shapiro in a second and maybe to a somewhat lesser extent Dennis Prager all three of these are intellectual, philosophical thought leaders of our day who are pushing back against this totalitarian impulse of of the leftist cultural Marxism. So my first question for you today. Travis is why are Jordan Peterson and Ben Schapiro so popular and how are they different than someone like more conservative political guys like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levine or Mark Stein what I grew and watch some of the videos and read the articles that are coming out about these guys and from these guys was similar lectures unit is a difference or contrasting to groups of social socially popular thinkers and pundits, and I think I think the difference between Peterson and Shapiro is apparently going to need just the surface political conversation. I think you're going to need the day by day blow-by-blow Twitter verse kind of chatter and I think you're going beneath that to talk about things that are better deeper underneath the surface, so I think are scratching where a lot of people are itching and I in a secular age. You know there's a spiritual vacuum that is massive and secularism cannot fulfill or satisfy all belongings and the cravings of the human heart is because God is put eternity into the heart of man, according to Solomon Ecclesiastes is that's that's exactly the way were designed.

We are not satisfied with simply staying on the surface of a conversation we have, but we have to understand issues of meaning and significance my link up with how Christians should view Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro another more conservative thought leaders who are believers in Christ, but with whom we do share some common values, much more coming up in the crystal review after this, I'm David. Social justice is the gospel that this is become the mantra of many evangelicals rectifying perceived inequities of race, gender, sexuality, poverty, and immigration amongst others is considered a top priority. But what exactly is social justice is working for social justice.

The biblical mandate and application of the gospel Kalb Eisner has written an insightful booklet entitled social justice. How good intentions undermine justice in gospel. Also included in this revised 44 page booklet is a copy of the just-released statement on social justice in the gospel. You can order the social justice booklet or donation of any amount to the Christian world go to the Christian worldview.org or call one AAA 46 2233 right to Box 401 Excelsior, MN 55331. The mission of the Christian world is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ for when Christians have a stronger faith. And when unbelievers come to saving faith lives and families and churches. Human communities are change for the glory of God.

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Thank you for your support, your radio program. I'm David Wheaton website is always the Christian worldview.org topic today is truth without the truth how Christians should view Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and others are believers with whom we share some common values. Our guest is Travis Allen the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Let's get straight back to the second segment of the interview. Do you think that Jordan Peterson and Ben Schapiro.

They have hundreds of thousands of followers on twitter, Facebook, millions of views of their videos and speeches. There must be a lot of people who consider themselves to be Christians following them. II know of some who are younger and really pay attention to what these guys are saying, what have you heard from being a pastor with maybe the younger folks in in your church or that you know you been playing among younger younger people probably found in my experience, effort to be more men than women, young men and young women.

I think part of that comes out of the academic and university environment where men are feeling more and more pushed to the margins and think continually assaulted and insulted just for the fact of being male. Their terms like inter-sexuality, micro-aggression, toxic masculinity that are put forth in classroom settings and in other places as well.

Also, not to mention both the LGBT Q etc. etc. ethos bets that pervaded the college campuses that is trying to find men from being men. And so men to emasculated in the public square like they can't speak up and say anything.

I personally witness this not too long ago my son was taking part in ethics competition with his university and they were visiting colleges and universities, each with teams of students who were debating, and a mild debate form ethical issues and especially on some issues.

Women were given the floor put on the pedestal, especially when it comes to issues like one question was asked about the limits and the definitions of consent in a romantic relationship and it was the men were falling over themselves to try to put the women in the driver seat on the conversation. One of the one of the judges I thought judges were supposed to be unbiased, unprejudiced, but the judge introduced into the room.

The concept of toxic masculinity and pose the question to one of the female and she waxed eloquent about how much we have to have conversations in this toxic masculinity is assumed. This male patriarchy is an assumed un-debatable fact of human existence, and so the men I think so. Listen to that. I think that many of them don't agree the one to do give verbal assent I think are doing so because it's it's popular. There's a peer pressure is a fear of man is she going on there or if your woman might say, there are many men who just sit back from that conversation. Watch it happening and feel like they have no place at the table. So when they click on a Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro video that tells the challenges this idea of the assumed idea of this continuing male patriarchy that's that's held women down that's destroying women and upholding male power and dominance and violence against women just by men being in positions of authority. I think I find it very attractive and so I think there are young Christian men as well young Christian women were tired of that narrative and are finding that a Peterson Shapiro have a voice to push back against that which really is the feel of an increasing totalitarianism from the left with us today in the Christian Realty radio program.

The senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

He was also our featured speaker in the Christian review conference in 2016.

I like to play a soundbites of both Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro to solicitors have an idea of who they are, what they speak like what were some of the topics they speak on this particular Psalm but they were actually both being interviewed on a program I think it was by the Dave Rubin program and their sitting side by side there being interviewed about some of the contemporary issues of our day.

They talked in this sound but about individuality versus communitarianism and I will display the soundbite let you comment here Jordan Peterson first but the first minute and 1/2, followed by Ben Shapiro. There really was an attempt on the part of the postmodernists and this is allied I think with their fundamental Marxism to demolish the idea of the autonomous individual. So, for example, one of the things it's really interesting about the current free-speech debate is that it really isn't a debate because you have to be in the Judeo-Christian/Enlightenment tradition. To believe in free speech because to believe in free speech.

You have to believe that there autonomous individuals who have their own viewpoints who can spontaneously generate creative ideas and then who can engage in an active dialogue in in a manner that that is that consists of fundamental goodwill and truth and that you can change each other's opinions and that you can come to a negotiated agreement. You have to believe all of that including the autonomous individual in that concept the logos which is what Dirk Derrida was so so what he criticized so heavily that idea of local local centrism to believe in the autonomous individual and the postmodernist and the neo-Marxists they don't. They believe that the individual is a mouthpiece for a power assembly and that there's no such thing as free speech, which is why the platform is not well, it is so the debate about free speech is way deeper than who should be allowed to talk to debate about free speech is whether or not there is such a thing as free speech outside the power game that neocolonial Europeans are plank and so what I'm doing and what you're doing with me and I think what everybody in the IDW was doing to some degree is speaking to people as if they are autonomous individuals who are the bedrock of civilization and sovereignty and that is absolute, and anathema to the radical left and so they that they see that is a fundamental challenge which it is okay now will go next to Ben Shapiro so in that soundbite Travis were hearing from Jordan Peterson talking about no were not just a collective like the communist think of us were were individuals and we want free-speech and is based on that neither side doesn't believe in free speech so I think many Christians we hear what he saying there and think, well, I can agree with a lot of that was going to Ben Shapiro and see what he has to say and I think this goes to the fundamental conceit of folks on the left which that they are more sympathetic human beings and people who oppose them politically or unsympathetic human beings in this goes back to the individual versus communitarian distinction (individual. This means that you are inherently unsympathetic to others because your individuality stands against the collective.

If you remember the collective then you can show that fire the amount of sympathy that you have for other people and so I think but also for the collective is also very weird form of sympathy because the collective doesn't suffer individuals suffer no end and that's it. And then the other thing that's interesting about that reflexive identification of sympathy with virtue is that it's actually extraordinarily immature. As far as I'm concerned because most complex problems aren't art solvable by reflexive sympathy, reflexive sympathy is more like it. It's more like an instinct. It's more like anger words more like jealousy or rage or love, for that matter. It doesn't have that cognitive component that enables you to take apart complex systems and to analyze them and determine what the problem is and what a solution might look like and then to lay that out in a cold and calculated manner toward some positive and it's this automatic assumption that because you're overwhelmed with pity. Let's say that that somehow makes you morally virtuous and it normally does it not make you morally virtuous. It's often the case that that this is the big Freudian observation that that all-encompassing pity actually has a devouring component notes that overprotectiveness that while the Jonathan Hite and and Lou get off of been writing about.

For example, when it's very it's it's that interferes with the development of people's autonomy and so the reflexive idea that because you're a sympathetic person your good right is is bad enough.

In addition to the fact that well all the sympathy is on the radical left, which it certainly hasn't no doubt these guys are intelligent they're talking about the deeper things of life and I think they're diagnosing the left and that the cultural Marxism that seeks to impose its worldview on this country and specifically to try to undermine and topple the oppressor as they see it of Christianity. So neither of them are evangelical Christians, neither are born-again Christians. Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew, Jordan Peterson asked when he does he believe in God is a well meant take me a couple hours to answer that question certainly not born-again Christians but could she stay still say their allies of Christians when it comes to values because they're pushing back against the anti-Christian cultural Marxism of our day. That's all. Some people would see them okay so stay tuned. Travis Allen will answer that question after this next break of the day on the Christian rule of your radio program just to clarify, were not picking on Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro were just using them as examples of our day and their others beyond them who are Christians but are pushing back against the ideologies that are undermining Christianity and Christians in our society today. And remember the big distinction between guys like Peterson and Shapiro another more political conservatives like Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh and others is that Hannity and Limbaugh and others like them, tend to despite the left versus right battles. Whereas Peterson and Shapiro are more at the ideological philosophical level, answering some of the big questions of life that really Christians in the church should be boldly answering both in the church and in the public square, rather than those who aren't believers who are really just borrowing from the Christian world of you for some of the nuggets of truth that they do say but also mixing it with lots of humanistic thought that is contradictory to the biblical worldview, so stay tuned. We have much more coming up with Travis Allen today in the Christian world view.

I'm David Wheaton in his DVD, the death of discernment. Mike Gendron uses the analogy from a W to those red cells are like faith that carry life-giving oxygen to every part of the body white cells. On the other hand, are discernment they pounce upon dead and toxic matter and carry it out of the body.

Each member in the body of Christ is white blood cell, we need to identify doctrinal error and make sure it gets out of the body. That's the only way that the body of Christ can remain strong. The death of discernment DVD contains two messages by Mike Gendron.

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Your email and mailing address will never be shipped and you can unsubscribe at any time: one AAA 646-2233 or visit the Christian world.welcome back to the Christian Realty radio program. We have a full segment ahead with Travis Allen the senior pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. As we talk about how Christian should view non-Christian thought leaders like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro was get back to the interview. I think they're diagnosing the left and that the cultural Marxism that seeks to impose its worldview on this country and specifically to try to undermine and topple the oppressor as they see it of Christianity.

So neither of them are evangelical Christians, neither are born-again Christians. Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew, Jordan Peterson asked when he does he believe in God is a well meant take me a couple hours to answer that question certainly not born-again Christians but could she stay still say their allies of Christians when it comes to values because they're pushing back against the anti-Christian cultural Marxism of our day. That's all. Some people would see them here. I agree with you is just about sound bites. If you if you were to extend those soundbites and their hour-long videos and lectures here for the same. I will read educated very articulate. Obviously, clear thinking, bold and in a sense they're simple to understand. They speak, they speak with the with the humanity, especially Luke Wilson and Jordan Peterson talked about that issue of sympathy on how it's the individual who suffers, not the collective but suffers, and as he's interacting there was Shapiro and sometimes Jordan Peterson can sound so sympathetic some of described him like a philosophical father figure. I get that. He seems that he really gets the plate and the suffering of the modern age. So they sound like they are innocent allies with Christians pushing back against the liberal Marxist social totalitarianism that is really setting the narrative, not just for the left, but it's all through the universities and colleges.

And that's really all the way down through primary education Ameritech, and there is vision so that I think why they're such sympathetic thinkers and spokesmen for this perspective.

That said, there are throughout their lectures.

Many un-argued assumptions just like their philosophical opponents so went by pretty fast there. We might think we agree with this. Peterson spoke couple times about the autonomous individual. The autonomous individual pieces.

That is the product of the Judeo-Christian worldview and is what gives us this concept of free conscience or free speech. That's why he pushes back against this Marxist collective consciousness idea that there needs to be the autonomous individual autonomy means self law at its root, and so the biblical position is not about the autonomous individual.

The biblical position is about the responsible individual or the accountable individual and it's our responsibility before a holy God who is our creator, lawgiver and judge our accountability to him that produces that concept of a free uncoerced conscience before a holy God to speak according to conscience that comes that truly comes from Scripture from old and new Testaments, but the autonomous individual is something that snuck in there is a product of the Enlightenment, not Reformation thing, but enlightenment thinking today in the Christian Realty is talking about truths without the truth how Christian should view Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and others who had a is strongly pushing back in a more conservative libertarian way against the ever-increasing totalitarian impulse of the left in this country and around the world. So what is the concern then Travis for Christians who love these guys who follow them, who are being influenced by them. What's important to understand about their their worldview. What's really important understand that they are not true allies with the Christian world you may appear to be at least seem to be at a superficial level, perhaps, but I really concerned for Welford for young people but for all people who find some some voice in these guys know. Again, I want to express. I get it I II can sometimes cheer some of the things that they say that you are so clear and such as a bold, unapologetic pushback against the system. You might say that we find ourselves in today but my concern is that to close alliance with these types of thinkers and spokesmen is actually an unnecessary and real distraction for Christians because it's only in Christ and Christ alone that Colossians 23 and him are hidden, not just most of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, but all of them so finding Christ to be our champion Christ to be our spokesman Christ to be our example for all things. That's where I want to point Christians is to him and not to cultural social warriors like these guys even if some of the things they say sound similar. I think we really need to not just on not just look at the similarities we find sympathy with.

We need to look at the differences we need to see there are distinctions between the way we brought up the one with the autonomous individual.

We do not. The Bible does not teach it.

We do not want to teach or enforce reinforcing anybody's thinking human autonomy. We want to understand that we are under the law of God. That is the best, safest, most joyful place that human conscience can be is underneath the law of God in Christ love God out of Christ, not in Christ. That is a terrifying place to be, as Martin Luther that was a part of his own testimony that drove him to Christ.

But in Christ to be under the law of God into to live out his commandments, that is, that's a great joy in such ultimate freedom to have accountability and responsibility to him.

You're not gonna find in any system promoted by Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro some concern about that. There is a superficial feel-good experience that many people have as you follow the videos in the teaching of these kind of in-your-face pushback of the social warriors and they feel good for the moment, but the end of the day, and again like Colossians 2 says 223 they have only an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body in a year. A lot of that in Jordan Peterson's just suck it up, go, or whatever. He will make your bed.

Life is suffering that used to make some of yourself.

That's Colossians 223 right there but none of that has any value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

That's my real concern the end of the day. Peterson Shapiro, they are just yet another dead end and that they will share an eternal fate with the leftists that they oppose so I wanted to want to turn Christians not to those thinkers, though spokesmen want to want to turn to Christ for salvation and him and him alone with us today in the Christian Realty.

The senior pastor of Christ Church in Greeley, Colorado is also the former managing director Grace to you and a former Navy seal. I like to play another soundbite where Ben Shapiro gets into the idea of presuppositions. I think you can explain this Travis how understanding what presuppositions are in a couple other big words, metaphysics, epistemology and ethics how those three things are the foundation for every worldview, so let's listen to the soundbite by Ben Shapiro and then I'll follow up with a question thereto using enlightenment. One is that injectable birds words. It was a miracle that sprang from nowhere. Suddenly, reason dominated of revelation and crushed revelation and in the wake of that crushing came the full flowering of economics and humanity and freedom of liberalism and those things were opposed reason revelation were that these were an anomaly that the intention they were falsely opposed to theirs. For that reason, revelation, our intention, but is also true. Certain assumptions undergird the assumptions of reason to believe that reason exists is just a evolutionarily favorable firing of neurons, then you have if you like Sam's position and objective truth exists in the absence of anything remotely approaching a a a system of assumptions is unsupportable excluding insupportable. I think that I think because you are billed to create more little copies of you reminisces evolutionarily speaking what you are created to do has to do is discover an objective truth is utterly beyond me. So the end and what has to do with the existence, objective truth in any in any case, enlightenment is based on certain fundamental assumptions based on the idea that you can act as an individual freely by making rational decisions in a predictable world of loss right all all and every one of those assumptions is ungrounded in a world of pure scientific determinism just doesn't it doesn't exist. So what happened is as I'm seeing right in the enlightenment wise and I think that using some conscious Dienst counties.

All the species that this trouble is coming and he attempts to reinject religion and spirituality and dive back into a moral system without actually saying so is not actually Scott is actually trying to create a rational basis for Christian revelation and Christian reasoning so that he can avoid the trap of having to cite the Bible but he couldn't say that all of this makes sense anyway okay Travis there was a lot in that particular soundbite night. I know you're speaking is such kind of a high intellectual level, hard to follow but some of the things that I heard from that soundbite from the standpoint of the difference between reason is just that comes in the mind of man versus revelation, that which comes from Scripture and then he talked about that you can have these objective truths in life without having some assumptions some presuppositions, like Pierce explained that and finally he talked about Immanuel Kant, the philosopher of way back when, who tried to take revelation of Scripture and input reason to it.

So people wouldn't have to say the Bible says there was there was reasons to believe in the revelation. What we need to know with regards to presuppositions, metaphysics, epistemology and ethics as related to the Christian really that we should have all right get ready to put your thinking cap on. As Travis Allen answers that question after this next break of the day in the Christian real, I'm David. Here's my kindred fee, kneeling his DVD and apostasy will see how apostasy is the result of Satan's relentless attacks on the church will also looking for steps that characterize a churches drift into apostasy, then will look at the history of the church, a chronological development of the Roman Catholic religion and its drift into apostasy and lastly and most importantly, what are you and I to do in the midst of this great apostasy on the growing ecumenical movement DVD is titled Roman Catholicism's drift into apostasy and contains two messages, you can order it for a donation of any amount to the Christian world. Normal retail is $15 plus the Christian world.or or call one 846-2233 or right to Box 401, Excelsior, MN 55331. Social justice is the gospel issue. This is become the mantra of many evangelicals rectifying perceived inequities of race, gender and sexuality, poverty, immigration, amongst others, is considered a top priority. But what exactly is social justice is working for social justice.

The biblical mandate and application of the gospel.

Caleb Eisner has written an insightful booklet entitled social justice. How good intentions undermined justice in gospel. Also included in this revised 44 page booklet is a copy of the just-released statement on social justice in the gospel.

You can order the social justice booklet or donation of any amount to the Christian will go to the Christian worldview.or call one AAA 46 2233 right to Box 401 Excelsior, MN 55331 final segment of the day here in the real view radio program sure to visit our website Christian worldview.or meaningful gift. At this time of year, or if you missed any of the interview Travis Allen today we have a full segment head to look at straight back to the interview Travis Allen the difference between reason is just that comes in the mind of man versus revelation, that which comes from Scripture and then he talked about that you can have these objective truths in life without having some assumptions some presuppositions, like Pierce explained that and finally he talked about Immanuel Kant, the philosopher of way back when, who tried to take revelation of Scripture and input reason to it. So people wouldn't have to say the Bible says there was there was reasons to believe in the revelation.

What we need to know with regards to presuppositions, metaphysics, epistemology and ethics as related to the Christian world you that we should have backed away from that say that everything one of them have a worldview.

We have an understanding of how we got here what happened. What went wrong with the world how it gets fixed. Where were going where history is heading. We all have an understanding of those of those things of the world you it's it's it's what you might call a metanarrative or something like that and at the basis of that worldview.

Even if we don't unpack better look carefully examine the foundations of it is a view metaphysics metaphysics is a fancy word for issues like ontology you know what we understand about being the nature of being what we are is as individual human beings who God is and what he is is a divine being angels all the rest.

We have an understanding of cosmology. How everything the cosmos is ordered how it got started with the nature of it is that's all in metaphysics we have an understanding of epistemology, how we know what we know how we think and reason.

One of the limits of human knowledge.

We all have an understanding also then coming out of that of morality and ethics that which is right and wrong with our world. Our standard of moral law is and then how we work. That standard of moral law out in our practical day-to-day decisions. Is it okay to must we always tell the truth. Further exceptions to that. Can we at times lie like when the Nazis are knocking on our door, looking for hidden Jews.

Is it okay to live in that circumstance must we always protect the weak disadvantage or can we take advantage of the weak, those are all ethical questions live the questions that you hear in the public discourse today are not examining any of those foundations they are people shouting back and forth at one another. Whether it's on twitter, Facebook, whether it's on your media outlets there shouting at the level of ethics what they think and perceive to be right and wrong, good and bad. Most beneficial for society are most damaging and destructive to society.

That's the level that their arguing on but the ethics are built on the understanding of morality. Morality is understood is based on a on a view of epistemology, how we know what we know and all that is based on metaphysics specially ontology and cosmology in that soundbite you heard Ben Shapiro getting down.

This is I think one of the reasons why he and a guy like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are attractive to to people is because they are actually dealing with some of these issues that are there so glossed over and most of the public discourse.

That's an angry discourse these days that people are tired of that may want to get down to actual thinking and reasoning and so that's what that's what Shapiro is talking about the said debates with Sam Harris, Sam Harrison, atheist, and you know who believes in his clerical materialist evolutionist.

He does not he denies the supernatural. He denies the existence of the immaterial spirit believes all that exists with most of the ancient this goes way back. All of existence atoms all the existence matter and matter.

You know that the real logical filter spells I will problem with that is it. If you believe that all that existed matter. You got to go back to the point of origin say weighted matter, and so you you get into the problem of this law. This infinite regression of matter that matters, eternal matter itself is eternal and so you're assuming something of matter that it cannot support the other problem with this atheistic materialism. Strict empiricism is that it cannot explain everything else in life like why we have standards of right and wrong why we have a sense of beauty and love words poetry come from where these expressions come from nothing about the evolutionary worldview can give a rational explanation of any of that until Ben Shapiro's pointing that out. Going back to the Enlightenment and the reason versus revelation. As Christians we do not see reason and revelation as opposed to one another. We believe as Christians in this goes back to our understanding of epistemology and metaphysics we go back to the central truth of the Christian world you is the triune God. God the father, God the son God the Holy Spirit, infinite, eternal, simple, immutable, impassable God omnipotence and omniscience on the benevolence omnipresent.

This God who is by nature pure spirit who is the source of all being, who is the start of the origin of the universe. He is the creator of the lawgiver and the judge and it's out of him but comes revelation general revelation and creation conscience. The law of God written on every human heart and then special revelation in the old and new Testaments of the holy Bible revelation. Christians believe our reason must be subject to revelation, we reason from from a standpoint of very strong standpoint of believing and trusting in the word of God and what he revealed. So, reason and revelation are not opposed to one another, but revelation supports the basis of all rational human thought so these two thinkers don't necessarily think that I think Ben Shapiro is trying to say something like that, but they're really saying that reason, revelation or post now in the Enlightenment know that what I just described about revelation being primary and foundational. That is the Reformation point of view. The Enlightenment project borrowed and stole some of the Reformation ideas that were swirling around the cultural ethos of the time and they want to set God aside and see promote human reason and it's and this is again Jordan Peterson's comment as the autonomous individual individual who is a law himself to his reasons and was the real reason is what guided all visions by feeding and sporting expressing exercising human reason gives us all the wonderful things we have been Shapiro was contrasting that with Judeo-Christian worldview wasn't the Enlightenment that brought us those benefit talks about the iPhone technology in medicine dollars will all right that's all we have time for today.

Thank you for joining us on the Christian world view part two is next week so hope you can join us for that.

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