Paul's Story, Pt. 2

This is conducive to light shines in this darkness, so you never, never really felt like you had a spiritual witness of book of Mormon. The truthfulness of the church is that what started you down the path leading leading away from the church or was it something else. Maybe something doctrinally or historically that will let you that way. I think the main question has always been around archaeology so I taught Benson era the book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion era so I feels everything fails which is which is a very logical way to think about things right if Joseph Smith did by the power of God translate ancient record as a young man.

If that's not what the book of Mormon is been asked. This so the idea that it would be an ancient record is indispensable. Right. That's what it claims to be an ancient record found by man inhaling New York and translated by the young man into English in its spoliation record people's real peoples who lived in the Americas so that idea was indispensable for me before my mission. Just a few few months before my mission, the Dead Sea Scrolls were on exhibit on loan to BYU traveling exhibit I see a couple of times I've seen it once therapy arguing I was here in Cincinnati a few years ago, but I went to that exhibit at BYU and I remember standing in front of the large Isaiah scroll, which I understand is not the actual Isaiah scroll was a replica of the second round of the traveling exhibit, but some it's a complete replica of the full Isaiah scroll was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and a rumor standing there listening to the cassette tape description of what I was looking at Walkman that they have a minimum exhibit and just being kind and carried away thought when the cassette tape described Isaiah scroll is as natural engine record that came out of the dust and then tried to make a comparison of back to the book of Mormon because I was like, well, we don't have the plates. Not only do we not have the plates that we don't have anything like a predecessor to the place on parchment or anything that would demonstrate that place, or the English translation of what actually represent an ancient artifact and that leads into why I was in the headspace in my mission thinking about archaeology because that definitely has always been the linchpin and while I was on my mission to talk about the city thousand 700 was a college town.

I was there knocking doors with companions on a hot summer day and we were out this this neighborhood houses knocking on doors and Congress have a weird place to exist behind the Iron Curtain, so people have high iron fences or stone walls around their yards where you have to ring a bell rings inside the house in order for them to come out and open the gate for you to see in their yard. There's a lot of remaining anxiety and fear of their neighbors that comes from the communist era so right about this one house and instead of coming out the gate did this house set right on the sidewalk so there were windows of the house right on the sidewalk instead of coming out of the house and opening up to date. The man stuck his head out the front window and asked us what we wanted and saluted.

Explain who we were the one tell about an ancient record found and have some time to talk about it and is kind of an eccentric guy is like wall. Would you be interested in reading a real ancient record that was found as I sure so he disappeared back into his house and came back to the window and held out to me like a sheet of papers that looked like it been photocopied off of something and he headed to Mimi's. I hear here's a real ancient document that has been found in these like I'll tell you what, I'll take your book and I'll read it.

If you'll take this book ends and related but you have to bring it back. Is this my only copy and you got it from creditors. So, my companion, but I was crazy that I made a deal and I took that she papers back to our apartment that night and I read it and you know I was describing a war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. I have no idea what I was reading. I realize now what I didn't know the characters on one side of the paper and then there was an English translation of the soul is like a translation of Dead Sea Scrolls that turns out. Now is a translation of the war scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls and I hadn't argued what was at the time was 20 years old in reading and reentering more scholarly than I was but took it back to them the next day. I remember just kind of being struck by that there were actual schools being found.

Again, I was struck by the actual school being found that demonstrated that the culture of ancient Judaism actually existed and was a real thing and there's nothing like that. Nothing tangible like out of the book of Mormon is just so long story short, it's always been archaeology so freely came down to archaeology and so so so is that the last so that the final straw that made you realize that you really wanted something tangible to prove or to provide evidence for the book of Mormon is that is that really what sealed the deal for you as to why you no longer believe the teacher now site is not the final step we discussed moving the assembly searching sure yet so so how did you what led you after that experience on your mission.

What led you after that to start questioning and searching for answers.

My mission like this. I try really hard on the masking I was in full on struggle because I wanted to some type of evidence alive. I came home and I I subscribe to forms foundation bridge researching Mormon studies is not a maximalist data publication Journal they produced quarterly cultural book of Mormon studies. I subscribed to that and read it every quarter will come out and what I found there is that most often the scholarly papers that were written in that journal were mostly walking back overly optimistic claims that have been made about archaeological findings and Mesoamerica 50 years prior and ends that bothered me.

So as I was just looking for something to hold onto. I still enjoy the culture of the church. I still enjoyed the fact that wars will generally welcoming place it did in the family outside of my family but I probably use of my beginning.

The question was, was knitting my wife and ends in her family so when I came home I was back to work at the same company rumor that was working small electronics firm soliciting and was working there with a friend of mine from high school and she would come in after the weekend and there was a mutual friend of ours who was starting to girls online, the Internet, really came into being.

During my early high school years is as a thing that the people actually had access to dial-up people out of their homes and so it was kind of weird idea that this mutual friend of ours was knitting girls online so I printed recommended tell about their religion escapades where we go out dancing or whatever they were dealing in this mutual friend of ours with some girl there that he had met online and he was always frustrated that the recording family didn't turn out to be like what they presented themselves as online solution. We would sit at work and talk about that laugh about it and he devised a science experiment that we would conduct where we would create a profile for ourselves classes where where is where is this friend of ours is girls told it is knitting cycle LBS matchmaker.com. We decided to do you really trust his his judgment because my friend Jason is grossing pre-goal is like on Wednesday, Nesbitt is to pity or whatever, but also revise the science experiment will create a profile of ourselves we had to respond to anybody who might have upon profile and strike up a conversation with us and we were just, you know see what kind of ice weed out there was no intent merely to meet anyone.

It was just kind of is kind devised this experiment to test our our mutual friends judgment and so I created a profile and within a couple hours I had probably six or seven emails of girls at the one you were interested in talking to know each other. What else was from girl out here around Cincinnati area ass that's weird that's a long way away right so responded to her email. Was Angela and we started talking, started chatting online using ICQ's old checkpoint and the then eventually it got to the point where we were talking on the phone, and no cell phones were really thing men since 1999, so the rat ran a big long distance bills, but eventually got the worst. It was fairly serious. After several months, to the point where she invited me out here to be her day to her sister's wedding. So I flew out in November 99 attend her sister's wedding as her date at a Baptist Church suggesting how the other side lives comes to weddings and this while I was here proposed bans.

She said yes. So I went back I flew back to Utah with intentions of moving out here at the end of 99 after Christmas last Christmas and my family could be a good idea to have come home from my mission below that year and my family before spending Christmas with them so decided to spend Christmas with them and not here to Cincinnati area solicited back here and it's went to work initially at Fidelity investments doing seasonal work there pairings stock portfolios for tax season. The documents that the people to those of their accounts and then eventually got a job working for an insurance company that had Medicare contracts and means was working there.

There was a security guard in Charlotte.

She was notably African-American woman and we would talk often and when I would go down to Millburn to get the mail. Talk about religion because I was still in the mindset of being a good Mormon and I was really trying to because Angela had gotten baptized today after I got home from my mission so I came home on May 14. She was baptized in the church on the 15th and we both got assigned.

I then the wedding approaching.

I was feeling the pressure of being a good priesthood holder good representative of the LDS church. Both within my relationship with Angela and also in my work relationships so I would try to do missionary work with Charlotte else I could talk to eventually got in my conversations with Charlotte, where she was taken missionary discussions. She's reading the book of Mormon and one day when I thought things were going fantastically well came in the work and talk to Charlotte and she looked upset. She had to be back tomorrow night dinner that had posted notes that she is stuck in there should read and studied and she said I can't do this anymore. I asked her why she said she talked to her pastor that he had told her that the Mormons were racist and I tried to argue that point because here I was, everyday talking with her.

I certainly wasn't racist.

Having racist tendencies. She agreed with that question. She handed me a stack of papers that are pastor printed off for her that went into the church's history with Laxton Kristin and Stassen searching on that issue, which centered on the rabbit hole of LDS Church history and doctrine.

Changes in policies and development world Arcos sure now if you have seen my action with any of the other policies was the races in the main why did I get you to slip the other ones under the rug before me. Yet polygamy was a show about so dad reasonably soon come back to bite me like that was tough because I remember sitting member of the mission. I have a goal that I talked about right to lead all the standard works without a course included the official declarations during the Pearl of great price right so the official declaration, including the official declaration and the ban on black, pervasive and so I remember being troubled by both of those but you need and put them up on the shelf. You don't touch and leave them there until they cannot fall off the shelf at a time when the expected so we do a similar thing as well so so was Michael. You're not from Utah but not more so. You may email your resume with us little bit like an Utah policeman I was growing up there and others squirm when I was a young man to be ready to go on a mission of the young man having just come home from a mission I'm good elders quorum that was like speculation time right that was time for every body in the ward to start speculating about when were going back to Missouri when his polygamy, back those types of things are outside the mainstream of of obvious thought to hang onto their new top and so I was swimming in a pool of no people suggesting that there was a time when polygamy was coming back and do you know how you handle that right so Angela and I met on my flight back from from attending her sister's wedding. I had a layover in Phoenix and they overbooked the flightto get from Phoenix to Salt Lake City so they were offering $500 flight vouchers for anyone who would be willing to take a later flight.

Look at time of $500 flight voucher would buy a lot, so I agreed to take a later flight through Denver to get back to Salt Lake and the fibrillar flight voucher and I sent it out here. Angela know something I have mentioned until now but I will now is that when Angel and I know she had two little girls already know one of the things that people are concerned about around me and and they heard was that I would have a ready-made family and they wondered what I was old enough and wise enough to manage that which I can totally understand your concern but that $500 flight voucher was going to allow her to travel out there with Kelsey and Holly knew my family so flight voucher. She flew out there and while she's out there we took a drive and we went out into the southwestern corner of the Salt Lake Valley which at the time was just farmland by Herrmann is nothing but farmland. Now it's all Dr. Seuss. The houses out there in the dayspring CIBA Matthew or not but this is just the house now, but anyway, we took a drive that was one of my favorite things to do in high school as dictator drive out there by the copper mines. It was dark out about in the Valley got away from from light pollution of the city to see the stars cited isolate drive out there and so I took her out there to share that with her and you were driving along and I'm thinking you know nothing about one of those conversations in elders quorum about what will you do, including back and here I am. You know, engaged and married to this woman I'm thinking like what I do a clinic in back is slight, strike up a conversation with her about know some people speculate that someday please get back in the church would you think about that bad to say I'm surprised she actually married after the conversation, but… A blessing to do the delete anywhere good.

Yeah that's that's kind of thing that most just an idea, so she must love you a lot. She said she good and it's been 20 years next year so I guess the conversation too much. I talked a lot about archaeology. Polygamy is one issue where there are those the main issues are that it was or anything else that was kind of detrimental to your faith or something that made you? Or do you have anything else you would like same about Excel I just got to the point after after years of study, so I talked about experience to Charlotte and how that some young on down the rabbit hole of searching Google searching various issues and build his church and that limits to into discussion boards online. Started out it believes net.com discussion board there on Mormonism and then several of us that discussed regularly. There and elsewhere. Eventually found our own private message board where we discussed things even got together in person once in Salt Lake City to discuss things and event group of men and women really kind and it was indispensable to have them help you know, hoping through things help discussed things that I was learning. I think probably one of the one of the straws. It was almost too much on the camel's back was was reading. Rough Stone rolling and just, realizing that there were logical and rational explanations for what Joseph Smith produced both in terms of his writings and in terms of the success of the LDS church that the goals resulted in the God and so I reach a point probably around 2007 or so where I didn't know I wasn't a liberal believer in more in the LDS church is truth claims, but wanted to stick in for the cultural aspect of it, didn't want to lose my family want to be that strong personal that help his family together and so I kept pushing and gets Trying Michael did you into my time teaching elders quorum I would I would teach lessons and be very open so tobacco investment, a number of years in young men's organization where I didn't feel as safe to be open about my doubts. I felt like there.

I really had our line because the responsibility on my shoulders to raise up the next generation of latter-day St. Knuth in a faithful way and so I just swallow my doubts while I serve bear. But when I moved my was moved from men's organizations. The other squirm. I for one thing, the two men that I was in elders quorum presidency with order. They were willing to be open to and so we had discussions that were somewhat refreshing but I would teach lessons that in which I was very open about my doubts about the book of Mormon about whether or not Joseph was actually profit and spark conversation the other squirm and people would come and tell me I remember Cummins only that they appreciated my candor… It was refreshing. I never got in trouble with the bishop or anyone else over. But notice it was a difficult time because I was still trying to be so try to be faithful trying to find goodness in my church activity trying to find community of like-minded people who would be for me in person.

What I have experienced online. The people and eventually a point where just working more than once per for a number of years. There is kept pushing the skip trying to skip time and snow. Angela and I were very open throughout all of that about what we were going through what I was learning she was learning.

No time when I read the book in sacred loneliness, which is provided read some history of Joseph Smith's wife's hands in their own words describes no what's living polygamy was like for them and I was a rough book to the. I remember hiding it from Angela divided wanted to harm her faith and she found it one day while I was at work and I spark a conversation totally wasn't sure that I believe in God and more sure that I deleted in the church and more that crush her, remember her crying and she just insulated all you don't believe you have the truth so you know throughout the years we were we were open to talk about things and she is supportive and got to the point where she tried. She pushed the time around 2008 or so when our bishop had challenged the Lord to the book of Mormon through and she had never done it will try to read it together but never really interested her assumption about a time when the bishop challenged abortion. She decided about the shooting.

Think about challenging she got the book of Mormon on on CD and shoe sinlessness. He is really long and she went through the entire book in a couple weeks and member feeling a little bit excited because I cannot hope that I have never seen the witness but if she receives the witness than is still hope for me and had a conversation after she read it and I asked Serena what the think now having run all the way through her responses was very disheartening for from where was the time she said that she struggled to believe it, or should read it over threw them out should read it all the way through. She was certain that it's not what it claims to be. And so from that time on she she kind of fell off attending church for the most part I would try to push her to go take the kids and go and a lot of times she would, but sometimes I would nurture until she would go with us come home from church on Sunday afternoon and sit down to lunch and I can just see in her eyes that I described at the time and still be a good look in her eyes. She was not being fed a church and I thought you know that we just Just kept trying to eventually work out and so one day she one Friday – work and she said really, really need to talk and she said let's go, let's go grab some dinner ticket to go to a park and just talk. So let's grab dinner went to the park and sat down and I was fully prepared for her to tell me she wanted a divorce because I was. I knew that church was working for her and I have been pretty clear with her that although I have my doubts in my questions about the obvious church that I didn't think I could ever be Mormon.

Her family the southern Baptist so she felt like she had someplace to go back to.

I decided going to be anything other than Mormon, a member of his so I thought we reached a point where no irreconcilable difference of religion and I was certain about, so she can tell me that I park is not what you told me what she did tell me was that she could not go back to the LDS church and more ginger provided, but she couldn't. She would like to take the kids and try to find somewhere else to go to church and its Muslim and I wonder if she wanted if I wanted to, the stay on the obvious church that I can do that to. It was like it was like a weight lifted off me. I felt free to say. Now let's go let's go try something else. So that's what he said next week we started church hopping around the area until we landed at Lakeside Christian church. So Paul is only one church every year just wondering as I know that in my experience. At first I brought Mormon right you just expect the church to be perfect. Did you find yourself criticizing churches at first like her little little flaws were things that you thought were imperfections now so I guess from years had been going to services at my in-laws Baptist Church for some years with her students were Christmas cantata over Easter morning service attended services. There are so often that it I had kind of gotten away from the idea of criticizing it up when I was really open and I wasn't always that way. So I remember going to one service of my plan was Baptist Church when our oldest daughter Kelsey was probably seven or eight years old and was working service.

It was, it wasn't. I don't recall service was but it was but we had gone and the pastor preached and amended an altar call and Kelsey got up out of the pew and went for the altar call that she must've been a shoes just baptized. Remember that that's why I was freaking out so she reportedly altar call and I'm nudging annual like what is she doing what is she doing would really just like she can't be doing this and I remember taking our son Almon all. Tom Martin, you know, Angela is gone with her Angela grandma Baptist, so herbalists not anything to see someone go forward for an altar call and for her and I was a legitimate expression of one's need for for Seder and so she went up there to be with Kelsey are some certain fossil of us want to come out in the hallway. I remember just pacing the hallway, freaking out like they didn't know where Mormon really just a cappuccino form for an altar call it the student had a sense in my Mormon brain at the time. I'm thinking this is she's she's been impressed by by Satan because that's what attractions are so but by the time we left. I was so far beyond that mindset that I was just open and ready to see what else is out there. So in terms of whether charges one church, and so Lakeside Christian churches directly across the street from the stake center where he attended Mormon services for a decade and so we tried to avoid that church. We tried a Methodist, not a Methodist Church.

This this nearby were are some of our children went to preschool we liked it. They had both of a traditional service and the contemporary service agreements and traditional him service the first week because you talk about more like will use to youth pastor for the church movements heard her backyard fence backed up against our backyard fence knew her fairly well. We thought we might go back to the church the next week for further contemporary service bites.

I was, I kind of forgot a little bit and start researching with the community of Christ and tried to take us in that direction because I thought well enough or not Mormon solid Mormon in some way right so it kinda certain corresponding with the a female pastor from Christ's congregation. That's near here but kind of barter when one travel for church and have them implement plans next to go there deciding not to do that because it was like an hour an hour away in mid-March, for church so we decided not even to investigate that but made a decision on Sunday morning so the stay home this week and early this is when we decided just okay whatever venture Lakeside.

The reason we tried Lakeside because I could see. I can see when I was sitting in them in the foyer with our kids in the Mormon church. I can see people going in the Lakeside and they always look so happy. I was not happy no discharge of upland people going Lakeside was a copy they look like they were excited to go to church and that's not what I saw at the Mormon Chickasaw people struggling to get a bunch of kids in church's saw no muscle near realizing that no good you know how long I go on and on this mask, and so this wasn't happy and ends so I I want to try Lakeside have agreed that we were going to because it is directly across the street and what our Mormon friends to see us going in the Lakeside and it's a very casual environment like sizable wear short shorts and a polo football vibrator team jersey so it's kinda the complete opposite terms of style and culture than is churches say so, you are there a lot of reasons why the universe we walked in there and worship for the first time. It was like wow this is this make sense just felt like home from from beginning, and people welcomed us and made really good relationships there so let what was the point where was there a point where you really just had a thought like a good place and I would never return to Mormonism and did that take a while. It did take a while because I've known are in my mind sweetheart I alluded to an online discussion group because it took him a private and I've known people in that group who had gone to become evangelical Christians and then you know find out that after four years were eight years. They're going back to the obvious church.

So I do for a while think you know is this just another mass company on now or will the stack and aside, I didn't.

I spent a year more than a year knitting year and three months really kind of digging in and trying to learn and get my bearings before I was a point where I K I am ready to make it official and join this church by by being baptized and becoming a full member of this church so we left in May 2010 and Curtis and I were baptized in the summer baptized in August 2011 so that as I said, is probably the point where were you I was I was ready to say I'm ready and ended up until that point I did. I do do doctrinal compare, as far as what the church goes I was I wasn't critical of the church per se. I was curious to know how it's different right now structure. Is there anything like priesthood curious about all his campaigns wasn't I wasn't critical with you guys nearly as critical as I wasn't critical just just very curious. So yeah, my question I've been asked is so throughout this process of leaving a discharge fighting the church right now and feeling like your home.

If someone were to ask you at what point you feel like the Lord saved you. Could you give a specific moment time was it back in your mission, your praying for Jesus to save you or is it will be difficult to nail down a specific time. I think it's hard specific time.

I do believe I was saved before I left the church because as as I became sort of a just when my collar progressive Mormon in regards to my beliefs about the LDS church and ministry claims. The nonnegotiable's Jesus hands so although I do teach the lessons in a form where I openly shared my doubts about the adjuster's history claims. Most of my lessons were focused on Jesus and what he did for us when sacrifice was for us that's that's really where my heart wasn't in time and so I guess I guess that's why church at the end of the time the street became significant is because I kind of grown weary of studying out on this church is documenting issues. I really just want to focus on Christ and his love and I wasn't getting it there and so became Canada, difficult enjoying enjoying teaching lessons to elders quorum our realtor focusing on on Jesus side. I do believe it was before I left my car told the story.

I think the more conversation sent out a shirt. Now, with new Matthews well. There was a time when I was still struggling with this would've been when this was a time to jump on with your wasn't probably the mists spring or summer of 2004 bridges gone through a miscarriage as a couple. My wife miscarried and I was incredibly difficult for her painful hands awful for me as well and we were greeting from that trying as a couple to navigate through that payment and still remain connected as a couple and ends. Do remember in your Mormon head to go to a really kind of unhealthy space and when things like that happen sometimes where you think you must've done something wrong, you must not of been as faithful as you should've been without having to deal in slots, the headspace I was in at the time and I was just still just bring up a time to to know whether I was accepting God and nobler the couple short stories during the time that it's touch on the headspace that I was in the various things of the characters do and say. And I was writing one where you know a character realizes that he's never really heard from God and that was representative of what I was going through the time runs realizing I I've never really heard from Robin Bradford wins in the book of Mormon witnesses chosen as a prophet all that for years about 20, realizing a really heard from God and I remember thinking that it was odd that I had never dreamed about Jesus because Jesus had been really important really important part of my life for a very long time about the way and I never dreamed about Jesus was weird because about all kinds of stuff seem things to know and secure on things mundane things you know never about Jesus and remember mentioning that Angela that I was changing one of our conversations and just kept just kept praying know if I was those accepting of God and one day when in the bedroom to lay down for an afternoon nap and closed the door behind me examples out the front room of the kids never more than supposed to remind him. I got taken out and as I was laying there I heard a voice whisper my name. The settlement was right next to my ear. I have bags close… John must've missed Angela coming in known I must've dozed off an initiative in which I would be up you know so my eyes and there is nobody there. The door was closed, but in no particular voice say your name so I close my eyes and the WebEx try to go back to sleep and ends her divorce dad but you know that's really weird. My time I got up out of bed and walked over the door and opened the door and listened out to the hallway to see what was doing and I could hear that they were out in front room watching TV and playing around a massive area so I close the door in Megan's was a weird experience but never strays living like that before and then I don't know how much longer how much after that it was meager to his.

I don't know the one night I had a dream that I was walking up the hill and so when I was on my mission.

There was a hill in Buda where I'm assuming church.net had set up like statues in each of the 12 apostles Micah around hill in the walkway around the outside of it up the top and long walkway there were statues of 12 original positive Jesus in the top there were three crosses and this normally would recommend and I kinda stumbled onto that one day will route attracting and knocking on doors and murmur that I was skeptical Stacy down the middle of this field, and so they will have the stream where do dreamed I was walking up this similar hill and got to the top and looked up and there were there was Jesus hanging on the cross and that the same voice that I heard while trying to grab said my name and ends in your mind and ends it up about a lot. I don't want to make of it. That's kind of because that's what I said. I think that that was saved before about the Otis churches who have experienced and try to observe everything. It's a lot of great stuff maybe and maybe we can. Is there any final thought you like to say or do you think they were talking in the grips of ends and carbon got here about the fears that are involved in this church and making a transition into broader Christianity things that really can open up when laughed as I know really when we left I made mention of the fact that I kinda grown weary of studying out obvious church history issues and doctrinal issues and policy issues and when we laughed.

It's like the world opened up to me.

I suddenly had desire to study. I was I've always been someone who studies things out and wants to learn as much about things that can and will be left is like the world of the Otis churches teachings on the great apostasy. How broader Christianity is apostasy.

My fear about studying too much about other churches ordered extra Christianity and and really that there is a sense in which I felt like it was. Not my right is the obvious church has its Genesis 1930 and like everything before that is broken so why would you look at and remember making a comment to someone online because they were very surprised at how quickly I made the transition from studying Mormonism so deep in this with this person is common to the sum of been in private discussion group with me. Also someone I met in person and become a friend of it to commenting about making this transition like really fast. Jump headfirst into studying out Christianity and was like yeah about no psych.

All of that history all about doctrine is mine now. It wasn't before it was broken.

I didn't touch it, but it's all mine now, but I did get to look at a negative reason. Think about it and so I think what I'm saying is that the world is out there and this is really amazing, beautiful stuff in historic Christianity. Whether it's in the writings of Augustine's confessions or its writings of St. John of the Cross or its experience of Martin Luther and John Calvin over whoever else is a lot out there is just waiting to be discovered RA while thank you very much. Here witness your testimony of Christ.

You've already read explain how you at your belief in Christ and him that how he's how God is called you to him really think you fair witness and that her sharing that with us today. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the apprentice podcast we like to hear from you.

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