What About Religious Freedom and Respect? with Jeremy Howard (Articles of Faith Series)

Beginning with all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son.

We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening. However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry that is angry.

That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan cult member is a hot button for Latter Day Saints. I remember during the 2012 US presidential election season, when Pastor Robert Jeffress was asked about then Republican firmament Romney stated the Mormonism is a cult and then had to make the rounds on cable news programs to clarify the use Mormonism as a quote unquote theological cult distortion of Christianity, but not the type of sociological cult represented by Stanford Temple or like Heaven's Gate, is a former Mormon is now an evangelical Christian. Avoid using the word: reference to Mormonism because I don't think it's helpful, but in 2011 when Jeffress made his comments. I'd only been out of the LDS church for little over a year and I was intrigued by his clarification with regards to Mormonism being a theological cult even when that distinction is made. Christians can sometimes have sociological cult in mind when talking about Mormonism working Mormons and one can hardly blame them, they see in the news. Things like Warren Jeffs and his trials related to the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which really does operate like a sociological cult we see stories like a murder case against Chad DiBella morning fallow in the deaths of Lori's children Jocelyn timely. Some of the details of that case seem to point to date on Balogh being involved in the subculture within Mormonism that has associated sociological cultlike qualities, members of the mainstream LDS church in Salt Lake City bristle at the dreaded C word being used in reference to their religion.

They ask why such an offensive term has to be used at all with regard to their religion when it comes to the distinction obviously protest that they are Christians.

To some people should just leave them alone about their beliefs. Some people who have left the LDS church and harbor anger also toss the trim around without any distinction this topic a list strong emotions among Latter Day Saints. If you're listening from your blood boil.

Stay tuned going to be respectful.

That's always what we aim for here on the outer brightness podcast today were talking about whether or not there is any warrantee using the term theological cult in reference to Mormonism LDS article of faith states claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege.

Let them worship how we are or what they may help us untangle just why the term theological cult without sociological baggage may be appropriate, Jimmy Howard Junior is a Christian pastor at Orchard Hills Bible Church in Payson Utah Jeremy, welcome to the outer brightness podcast when she tells little about little bit about yourself and about Orchard Hills Bible Church yeah so like the Pioneer Mormons able. I made the trek from Missouri to my wife and I are both from Missouri and over six years ago, about six years ago and we came out with church Bible Church in 1970 medical equipment history there and it's been great love with God is all now in our burden and really didn't do enough course evangelized in each community for Christ but also just did our part discipling believers that are air a lot of the churches here. Small and black resources wanted to be part of the solution there strengthening the church.

Jeremy also has a podcast called to theology which she does with his friend Ken.

They recently did a series of episodes discussing a chart. Jeremy created that brackets primary, secondary and tertiary doctrines. I very much enjoy those episodes under podcast and thought that the charter can serve as a useful framework for our discussion today and will put up a link to Jim's chart with the national notes before you jump in your charging me with your thoughts on the introduction is is using the workload helpful in any sense when sharing the gospel Latter Day Saints well, so much of what is helpful when talking to Latter Day Saints and on the legacy that is not a model out there so that I think generally we try not to use the word Colts sharing the gospel with them proclaiming the good news of Christ is illicit so many strong emotions that it would take so much exclamation in that those types of conversations that might not be logically sharp able to do that and podcast episode like this is a great place to hash it all out. Understand what I will say that in-house as far as Christians training other Christians in thinking through world religions that work will not just for one sector or wallet a large swath of religious people who do that definition of Colton, so it I think context is really important that Latter Day Saints talking to perhaps work that person understand where you're coming from but definitely at house. I think it's a corporate board.

Michael Matthew Robert Jeffress Jefferson Davis comments can become a media firestorm. I do remember that and the fact that he was calling it a theological cult to me as a latter-day St. at the time didn't seem to put the fire out as far as I was concerned I was still pretty upset about it.

You know I'm like okay you just playing with semantics now. I mean you still use the see where you still called us to call you know, I'd like that's is not okay plan to run revocable. I think that I was already kind of writing a biblical defense Mormonism but things like that were definitely adding fuel to the fire. You know Mike, I'm going to prove these guys wrong. Yeah, I was still in diapers and remove all wow, thanks for the Paul Knaus you know I was kind of out of the game. At that point in 2011.

Just because I was his May is probably my most busy year in my undergraduate program.

The junior year in engineering is always really rough so I was I was kind of aware of some the things are going on at the election cycle, but not. I honestly don't remember him saying that, but I'm sure I would've taken it if I did hear that you know like you said, I think I think most of this are sensitive to the C word, so I probably would've taken offense to you. Matthew if you need to come back for Paul.

It's that he'll be in diapers in the year or so after while Michael nice eyes so we'll your charging me when when did you create the chart and why was its purpose and commuted by listeners, brief description of the chart there. I chart 1000 Bible college when all people are at the pinnacle of logical understanding. I was interning as a youth pastor at a church and had a very small modesty group and I became aware to me, especially in fundamentalist Christian circles, but in all Christian circles might on yourself and that people always want them importance on the doctrines they want to place a lot of importance on and then production just kind of like over there when we get the thing that's okay. It's like were really emphasizing something that was kind of uncertain and were rejecting neglecting us a better term things that Scripture is very clear on the so what I did was I made this chart.

That's fine and has three columns primary, secondary, doubtful primary doctrine lays out Christian orthodoxy. Secondary doctrine lays out these doctrines that are a result of exegesis, but they aren't definitional to Christianity boot so we can have someone balloon descriptions and disagreements in the third column. Doubtful things are personal conscience issues like do you do you have a sip of alcohol you listen to certain types of music that that sort of thing that really fired up about and what I did when I first came up with that idea felt like that was good direction to go is when I was with that you could buy movies posterboard sheets that reflected the three columns and we made them all cut out slips that had different doctrines on and we gave the big posterboard to group students and gave them a little slips of doctrines that okay no place the doctrine where it needs to go. They each had like 15 doctors and what came out of that is one of the group split abortion in the third call of doubtful and that was the moment quick reading like okay we need to talk about this more that so often we talk about things as we go through Scripture verse by verse. But we neglect to talk about the importance of trying to away from raising essential and nonessential.

But what is the first importance. That's the biblical way of grace and so that's what the podcast is about the chart is about stressing what is the first importance what is not meant how to navigate this Christian life making appropriate calls on can recommend highly enough to theology podcast where Jeremy can go through the chart. There's probably nothing for five episodes devoted to it and it's it's very useful information in terms of understanding and what are those things that are primarily the things that Christians, regardless of denomination agree on a line on one of those things are secondary and one of those things that are kind of opinion is German was was mentioning so recommended. If you're interested in something like that.

Go ahead and give those episodes listen okay Jeremy ski. The next question so Latter Day Saints, they will often say, hey I believe in Jesus, who lived and preached in Palestine died and was resurrected. Does that make me a Christian. So how would you respond to such assertion lead many of those things. The pilot aired Nero believe all those things and other non-Christians.

They are not born again in mere acknowledgment of facts is not what makes somebody Christian what makes somebody Christian is genuine. They repentance the living God. As a result of the gospel and set aside the definitional disagreements that we have Latter Day Saints maps very significant disagreements about the mission. Jesus is what he accomplished on the cross.

Set those aside and say agreement definitions and some installments that state.

I believe that uses Princeton died and rose again will Christian the only thing that makes someone a Christian is that that person has been justified by the gospel that they asked to be a gentleman pay the true gospel acknowledging facts doesn't mean anything.

They true faith means every so from there we do need to get the definitions Latter Day Saints because of the fact is Jesus.

They talk about that. We got our conversation, I have not been the entire conversation is a follow-up with a quick observation to that whenever I talked Latter Day Saints to about the topic and assembly by the same gospel. You know he was born of the Virgin Mary and only preach the gospel he died, rose the third day etc. etc. but I was go back to. I think the epistles of the New Testament are so important, I mean primarily you see the epistle to the Galatians that the Judaizers they could affirm everything that the Christians were affirming the ACLU believe the gospel lewdly crises a Messiah that was prophesied for so long, but if you're Gentile, you just need that one thing you just need to be circumcised and everything's fine. You know, and part of really strong words to say about just adding one little thing to the gospel and everything about adding just that one little thing the gospel when you there's also no discussion but what are they also trying to enforce the various Jewish calendar and things like that but it seemed like they were destroying these title things of the gospel. But Paul had me and I said there were fallen from grace.

There cut off from God. And so if we just just adding one tiny little thing the gospel can cut you off grace.

I mean just compare that's all the doctrines that were added in that you know the clinical restoration of the LDS church. There's just so many new drop doctrines are added.

So what it would what you think about that or would you agree with that. Certainly yeah we there's no doubt that were dealing with two fundamentally different at the end of the day. I had some dialogue with Jackson Washburn theology podcast that we went through and talk about some of those things along the questions I asked him was white. Some latter day saints what is Christians early seem to have much of an experience with that circle, but I certainly see it everywhere. So many of our neighbors want to say Jesus will Christian, but the reality of it is said the added doctrine because of the added Scripture because of the claims with two totally different religions say the name Jesus Muslim say the name Jesus told witnesses say the name Jesus also said that we have to recognize that a fundamental level, not same gospel singing for Prairie after not answer my question. I wouldn't have podcast notes, but I figured it was a good follow-up for a living mentioned to you like I talked Latter Day Saints quite a bit and they'll pull the unit. We believe in Jesus to card, or are we also Christiansen, one of the places that I tend to go and I can know what your thoughts on this Jeremy but all will often say you know it's it's not about the religion or what church you're going to it's about your faith in Christ is completely personal thing and it's a different way of thinking about it when you're Latter Day Saints is clearly assets know I'm I'm in the church.

I am holding a temple recommend. You know you look around and you say everybody here is going to the celestial kingdom me were all can have eternal life. You know, in my experience it's it's really personal, and I can't look around. Even at my church and assume that everybody there has that personal relationship with Christ and I can assume that everybody in the ward doesn't have that relationship with Christ. And so I think it just changes the dynamic coming. Do you think that would be a route that you would go or that you would recommend going with the Latter Day Saints hard thing to remember that Scripture does say what people are going great and their death. So that's what makes it ever got conversation challenge is that we are relying solely on the spirit of God and that our tactics and perspective are always fall short. But there is a reality and a sense on the system. Latter Day Saints hunting gear you're told what to wear where to go, how to serve as part of the system is very impersonal.

You want to express the Christian life like we come to realize the freedom that's in Christ.

How organic a local church really is how God is building his church this morning. Organism and it's a totally different experience to express those things that I'm sure there are many Latter Day Saints out there like part of the system. All experience, but if they're not getting the nice to see your ears is never going to get it. That's work morning. It is is just an interesting save a lot of friends out here is kept close contact with and still have a good relationship with really fascinated by the Protestant life.

You know, and so the last sale a lot of questions and you assign one of them, like yeah we we struggle to find a church, you know, when around three or four or five churches before finally settling down and he's like you, I never thought about that you having to use agency. You know you decide where to go there so many different factors and you know it is just just blew his mind because it wasn't something he ever had to think about, you know where my going to go to church and why am I going to go there. It's just manufactured so they have agency and opening except and what callings you will have and what you will wear to church all that and asking the next question here before on the outer brightness podcast about how Christians are united on the essentials by your chart. Jeremy those are first column issues correct. What are some of the big essentials on which Christians and Mormons are not united yet so like I said, I like to use the word of first importance of primary essential those centuries, but yeah I mean when it comes to defining what Christianity is defined by doctrines and its certain doctrines, we can't say that every doctrine out there is definitional Christianity because how you end up that everything was dictated down to the leather freedom of interpretation. There is no freedom of expression like when it comes to how we are how we differ from the church of Christ. Latter Day Saints of primary doctrines, the reality of it is every single one of them disagree because of our definition.

There is literally not one primary doctrine that I can say we agree on. Because our definitions way that those their church has chosen to interpret certain things so a lot of them. They want to dispute that.

The argument that I bought Latter Day Saints one Bible verse to agree on a definition and that you will raise your eyebrows, but it's true.

So just the old Mormon apologist to me is like wanting to jump out right now like what about the which you say that the resurrection is not essential doctrine that we agree on with Mormons is there definition difference there was the one who walked out of the great Jesus is so yeah I mean when it comes down to agree that the same person walked out.

That's true. I can't. I can't fight you any more on that to follow up on the two because a lot of times Latter Day Saints will push back and they'll say well we believe the same Jesus right we just believe different things about him you know. So how would you rebut that argument. Jeremy yeah well it is not God and that absolutely drastically utterly thoroughly destroys my entire world so we want to try to minimize his nature by saying well. We can believe in God are these not the one true God and believing the way trivializing something that is of first importance that changes absolutely everything not trivialized Jesus Christ because it is the one true God that does change, so it's hard to know I found when talking with Latter Day Saints in the groups that I I'm kind of a more when I was out as soon as Margo McConkie. I know I liked. I really like the hard lines in the sand. You know like work here, you're there. I'm not try to blur the lines you know you are part of secular Christendom, which is apostate etc. etc. now it's like when I don't Latter Day Saints. They say it's only things I never would've affirmed has Artie saying I never heard church like I try to make the distinction between what you are saying real Christians.

Orthodox Christian. We believe that Christ has eternally been God he can find plenty of quotes where there are Latter Day Saints prophets and apostles were they say that Christ is a spiritual offspring are spiritual child of a location and he attained unto godhood and Ivan made him a note on Facebook because only people fought against that that had to just copy paste that will quotes all the time and they say no. We believe Jesus is eternally been God and I'm like why it's like I didn't believe is what it is saying. I believe that you know this salvation is that not everybody know there's a process of attaining godhood than you have children and then your child attains godhood and he becomes a Savior, etc. etc. and scan the continuing cycle. What is this idea of Jesus being eternally God and latter-day St. mine and it's really difficult because I think there's blurring on both lines of the divide I think there's Christians that want to kind of invite Mormons in the folding kind about fellowship with them. Despite all these doctrinal differences and then there's Latter Day Saints. The want to be considered Christians, along with the rest of us. So it's really difficult to kind of interact Latter Day Saints to witness to them for all feeling like rail on the same group together. I wish there were more McConkie ice.

That's a lot easier in conversation with the differences that recognize but man I I have to imagine that there was like a McConkie night conference for Latter Day Saints that were monitored and somewhere there really be like People stating around drink punch whatever so many Latter Day Saints today just seem universalist.

Basically the system with the Richards have been all that baked in that way were well world and end up your indigo where you want to go got what you wanted. Yeah it seems like when McConkie died a lot of very nobody will want to take more time. Eli found his new temp New Testament commentary set for like five dollars stranger and you know Matthew.

I did get them to take a hard line on something the other day that is that I'm going to outer darkness, so will the name of our podcast is just play on words like yeah yeah's reality said that Michael Hall. It was a while back in the group is Latter Day Saints. Mike asked them if you know I would accept. There's a chance at except the gospel in the next life like no you rejected in this life, so you rejected in the next is interesting, sometimes the go there with us. In a sense they wanted an offer. Their greatest splicing along� You had the true line knowledge enough to rejected and situated abuse on the position something attention summary actually took a position with the couple is three guys kinda telling me that I was finished so interesting, so the German first call omission is what wire the first column issues. And what does that have to do with Mormonism being labeled a theological cold way. Think about it when it comes to primary doctrine. That means these doctrines or definitional Christianity.

So when you think about what Christianity is so often people want to say what you have association with Jesus at any level here Christian. That's one definition is that it definition is that a good definition is that people definition what God's definition should be asked and if we believe that the Bible is the word of God, then we need to look to Scripture to see what makes Christianity. Christianity finds so as you look calm on my chart is not necessarily comprehensive that there is a lot there and say okay well this is clearly taught in Scripture and therefore must be our parcel to the Christian and gospel than that of the Trinity is included in that hell the second coming of Christ. The morale of Scripture is just now getting around what if you have a valid hermeneutic around those doctrines.

So that makes religion that disagreements with doctrines that make that movement a theological call. They have transgressed God's clear revelation of what is truly one's life so the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints along the sufficiency of Scripture may reject the crab may reject the cries may reject all these things that are so clearly taught in Scripture.

They are by logical call, as they have transgressed the clear teaches a clear answer is 100 shows because is think chart is a really good framework for trying to express some differences that we as Christians have with Latter Day Saints that sometimes will raise questions like the one that was referenced earlier like Jesus is just plain different things about Jesus you know you have to look as dead as you said, if you're going to rejected Christ and of Christ is revealed in the Bible and you are going to fall outside of Christian orthodoxy and so I think this is a good framework to tuner reminds me when I was still questioning Latter Day Saints. I was buying up theology books and trying to compare them to. I believe is latter-day St. in one of the first things about was that ESV study Bible have articles in the back and one of them was talking about. It was like close another religion world religions. In the first religion. It says on the first pages Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a caveman told him in a cold. That's not cool but yeah like looking back you know it makes sense that that the primary doctors are so different between historic Christianity and latter-day St. doctrine that I mean, like you said you kind of have to be spiritually compromise or spiritually blind to the truth in order to not recognize those distinctions and that's kind of why we try to share these things with Latter Day Saints to show them like no one will be safe. Not the same thing is what you're saying you know when we set you like. We don't like we said gently when we say I believe in Christ, like those those those those several words are so different between Christians and Latter Day Saints that we really have to unpack everything it since they say it's like you know it's half the battle is just vocabulary or maybe even most of the battles vocabulary so trying to dissect that is important. So I think this chart is really really useful for helping Christians understand why know where we stand away why we can consider Latter Day Saints are our brothers in Christ.

So is okay if we move on the next question lessee so we talked about the primary issues and enter the primary topics.

So let's go on to the second column issues.

So many of the distinctive LDS doctrines are second column issues such as history, qualifications such as they believe in an exclusive LDS priesthood authority church government and structure where they believe that their profits and apostles, with special authority church membership when they believe that there are the one true church on the face of the earth on methods of baptism when they believe the they baptized by immersion by withholding proper authority, and they also baptize those who are above the age of the only so what is it about the way the eldest treaty secondary issues that places them at odds with Christians. And why is it problematic and why does it matter is interesting about theological colds is fine in them is that they find everything to see all the way across the board and everything is primary syndrome as witnesses would be a pretty good example of this where they define everything from their what their gospel messages all the way down to help with the holidays and blood transfusions all that stuff. Everything is defined to see and then elevated to primary and there is no concept of secondary or tertiary or whatever everything of importance and everything was interesting about the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is that most of the first column things just get placed into a box called doctrine right. The mystery box and a lot of the first column things we would consider the first call a lot of Latter Day Saints going to think too hard about those you have several secondary things and all whole lot of column personal conscience issue, things those albeit defined to exceed elevated to the first call again going back to what you can wear them when you can wear what you can drink. You know what you can do in your church to serve when you go to church all those types of things that are personal conscience issues elevated up to first column. Those are first and back with is a religious system that doesn't have much spiritual sense, and that's what I see going on in the church of Christ. Latter Day Saints had this system organized. There is no real spiritual substance there because anything that reminds things of God kind of just inflatable ministry that will never be able to figure out and it gets neglected so that you can elevate these things that that's in my actually have notice that as someone who was never meant Latter Day Saints because a lot of folks like Jackson were maybe some others that we interact with on Facebook and younger generation and selling my own generation would say that their experience aligns with what you just said in terms of the practical day-to-day worship style and experience within the culture of the Latter Day Saints church is devoid of spiritual substance and going back to what Matthew said about him having been a McConkie I don't know that I would call myself McConkie and certainly when I was on my LDS mission experiences. His writings quite a bit and his son some of the sermons that David BYU but I just when I get desolate was I grew up in a church in the latter's interest that was much more farm on on those first column issues and taking the stance that Hayden was really important that we understand that we believe is Latter Day Saints that God is embodied that she was once a mortal man.

Some of those things are downplayed now and as you said kind of put off into the category of mystery were much more hard-line issues when I was growing up as Latter Day Saints and is interesting to see younger generations, Latter Day Saints, as noted, put those up in the category of mystery and I try to remind him you hated that's what you're going to do with things that should be of primary importance.

When you have some significant differences in status Christians versus Latter Day Saints if that's what you're going to them. Why should I become Russia and go back to Latter Day Saints. As if there's no one's no certainty about the nature of God and God is from Christ is really you don't have anything to offer me when you're saying what the claimant was clinical restored really doesn't have anything to offer so sua sponte, Lisa people out there who are very fired up about lots of things being one of the Made up Politics and You'll Get All Kinds of Indians and Even Nuance. You Obviously Goaded Them a Very Conservative but Got Now You Got Trumpeters Never Trump All That That There Working for Themselves for the Most Part on That Gets to the Realm of Religion They Take More about Shut up Frustrating for Me.

It's like, Well, That Agency so Much That When It Comes to Religion. It's Almost like You're Part of This Country Club Got a Little It Is Amazing. It's Amazing How Intelligent You Know Letter Study Sense Can Be Successful in Business and Educated and Then When It Comes to Religion. There's No Thought That Goes along with It and Totally Agree with You That There's Steel These Rules That You Just Have To Following I Think Colin and Massey.

You Guys Probably Seen This, but Illegally Serving a Mission There. There People Who Went out There That Didn't Want to Be out There If You Know What I Mean. People Went out Just for the Pressure Will Because Their Girlfriend Wasn't Going to Keep Dating Them If They Weren't Return Missionaries and I Had One Companion Who Went out and Said He Prayed about Whether or Not to Go and He Said He Got an Answer Not to Go but When Anyway Because She Just Didn't Feel like That Was Acceptable to Not Go so It's Just like, Okay, You Don't Really Have a Choice and They Talk about Praying for an Answer All the Time, but in Reality There's Only One Answer That Is Acceptable and When You Know That That's What You're Going to Decide I Should Decide." It's Not a Real Decision Regimen Real Quick Just Liquid, I Was Going to Mention to You That When We Bring This up Is Latter Day Saints Still Say the Bring up a Quote.

I Think from Brigham Young Where He Says We've Given Them the Revelations Are Given in the Scriptures with Them.

Pray on It and Let Everybody Receive Revelation Confirming What We Said Something to That Effect. So Basically E Sensor Told What the Prophets Say, but It's up to You to Be Responsible to Pray to Know Whether It's True or Not.

And so in That Sense, They Kind of Made the Resolve the Issue of Single Week. We Know We Don't Just Believe Blindly What Our Leaders Teach and I Never Really Found That Argument Very Compelling Because I Latter Day Saints. We All Recognize That Your You Are Asked in Basically Every Conference and Every Baptismal Interview at Every Wordiness Interview to Attend the Temple You're Asked Do You Sustain Local and General Leaders of the LDS Church and Part of That Is Agreeing Are Submitting to What They Teach so You Can You Can Say That You Have Freedom to Accept What They Teach Are Not, and That You Should Prayed to No One an Extra Nap. In the End the Only the Only Acceptable Checkbox Is Yes, I Believe What They Say Is from God.

So It's Kind like a False Sense of Freedom. If You Think about It That Way. Have Any of Her Conversations Jeremy to Disagree with Your President in Charge of Your Recognition, Which Is Your Ticket Sales Freethinker so That Way You Know Your You're Free to Rebel against the One Who Holds the Key. Basically They Are Not Well Yeah It Is a False Sense of Freedom and That's a Very Simplified Way of Looking at It Back and Jump to the Next Questionnaire. Let's Unpack the 11th LDS Article of Faith. LDS Will Often Cite This When Reacting to Christian Seeking to Preach the Gospel to Them.

It's a Way of Saying Hey Just Leave Us Alone to Worship As We Please and We Will Extend the Same Courtesy to You and She Had a Family Member. When I Was Telling Him That I Had Left the Church. This Popped up Immediately. You Know I'm Not Going to Discourage You Were Try to Dissuade You Because You Know the 11th Article of Faith We Allow All Men the Privilege to Worship Whatever or Wherever They May Say How Would You React to That First Link with the Latter Day Saints. We Should Recognize the Common Goal of Missions and Preaching the Gospel Now What That Looks like Is Different. We Have an Idea of What the Gospel Is below Have a Conviction That Admissions Are Important and Preaching the Gospel Is the First and See What I Think Talks about That Goes into Detail about Been Entrusted to Go out and Preach the Gospel so That the Conviction That We Have in Both of Our Religions, so It's Not like That's Not the Goal. But Secondly These Are Matters of Life and Death and Milk from the Christian Perspective. This Has Eternity Riding on and It Would Not Be Loving Me Inconsistently My Fate. This Led by Eisai, No Heaven Is Real Real and Where Where You Are in Relationship to the Gospel That Determines Your Eternal Destiny by Saying That Is True and I Also Believe That on the Instrument of God's Going Good.

The People on Monday for Me to so I Think from a Logical Standpoint, They Should Be Able to Understand That That's Not to Say so Therefore You Should Go Worship in Your Church You Should Go to This Nation That You Know Christian Should Never Be like Slashing Their Tires Go to Church or Whatever Know That's Not the Idea.

The Idea Is As Long As You Have Breath in Your Lungs and I Got Breath and Mine Have Some Shift That Is Centered around Gospel Conversation Constantly. Whether That Means I'm Not by God's Grace Continue Talking about the Gospel in This Article Is Problematic to Use a Christian Goes beyond Just a Statement of Religious Tolerance Respecting Charity.

Can You See Yourself Agreeing with It If It Was Proposed in Addition to Your Church's Statement of Beliefs and Why or Why Not Block the Formation Right.

But That Statement Is Some Sort of Lease This Idea That Men Are Free to Worship According to Their Conscience, and I Think That's the Way a Nation Should Be Run Where Americans Rightly Believe That Freedom of Expression.

Worship Is Great Things about You. As Far As Being a Christian Statement Being Added to the Doctrinal Statement Search Yeah I Don't Know about That Is Stronger Statement Acknowledging That Just Because People Are Free to Worship As They Please. That Doesn't Validate Worship or Worship. They Are Free to Live Worship Right Again Were Not Looking to Chain Them off, and Them from Doing Something That at the Same Time Were Not Saying Because the That That Means There Is Valid or or Worship There Is Such a Thing As False Worship in Their Brain That They so Choose.

That Method Does Make a Good or Right Side Is Fine Statement Now Historic American Tolerance and Respect for One Another As It Is a Very American Statement, Which Makes Sense for an American-Born Religion like the Church to Discuss a Letter since the Questions Were Where Can Get Problematic Is Where It Almost Becomes a Justification Universalism Is Kind of Okay Right or Even like to Suggest That We Shouldn't Have Authentic Religious Dialogue As You As You Are Known in Germany so I Think for That. In Essence, What Is This Used in That Way by Latter Day Saints Seems Problematic Problematic Today. So Just Real Quick Site Not to Interrupt, but Just to Say in Their Policy Was Sizing about Those Kind of Statements I Would Make Them All the Time Is You Know the Truth Doesn't Need to Attack Another Belief System like If You're Secure in Your Truth.

You Can Just Talk about Your Own Beliefs and There's No Point to Try to Find Clinical Falsehoods and in Somebody Else and There's Actually a Christian That Said to Me like You're Just You Just Try to Preemptively Stop Me from Saying Something about Your Face, and He Was Absolutely Right. You Know, so I Think That Is Use That Way A Lot so I Want to Ask You Jeremy off the Cuff so It Sounds like Your You're Not a Fee and All Agreed Construction Is Done. No Economies. Very Intriguing. I Find It Fascinating. But No, I'm Not Where like Gary DeMar or Some of Those Other Guys Would Be No Creating the Guys. More. I Think They're Very Fond of. So We Were Originally Going to Record Another Episode. After This Just with S3 about Politics in Us, Had Been Studying All the Different Types of Political Structures and and I Find Yummy Fascinating, I'm Sorry Side upon Michael to Start This Aside, but yet I Find It Fascinating and I Think There Is like It. There's Truth to What They're Trying to Do the Trying to Honor God Not Only in the Church Life but Also the Secular Life and They Want to Have a I Think They Have a High View of God's Law, but I See It, Is What You're Saying in the Seat Is Kind of like Enforcing God's Law As They Did in Ancient Israel, but in Our Modern Context Where the New Testament Is Really Talking Such a Context Is More Talking. It Assumes That the Church Is Going to Be a Minority Assumes Were Going to Be Oppressed and Persecuted in the World Is Also Because I Go Back to Its with What You're Talking about. But Religious Tolerance Yeah It Is Interesting Because As As a Missionary.

I Kind of Recognize That What What I Was Doing Is A Lot Of Decent Missionary in the World Was Offensive. I Was Going to Cause Offense to People. I Had a Very One. My Best Friends from the Mission. You Know, We Go to Houston We Would Knock A Few Times or They Would Have the Gate Closed and He Would Say Well You Know They Probably Won't Be Left Alone Should Bother Them and Open Again. They Said Look Were Here to Bother People. That's Her Point If Were in and I Think Christians Agree with That. You Know Were Not Here to Make People Feel Comfortable Were Here to Show Them That There That We Are Sinners and That We Need Repentance to Avoid the Wrath of the Holy and Just God, Accepting His Mercy and so It's It's Something and I Think Maybe Maybe We Can Ask a Quick Question about This. Do You Think You Know with the Political Climate, Things Going on. It Seems like More People Today Are Easily Offended at Being Told That They're Wrong or Being Told That They Need the Gospel or They Need Jesus. You Think It's Becoming More so. That Way, or Is It Just May Be the Internet Climate That's Changing Things Where People Are Not Willing to Be Challenged on Their Beliefs Are Not Willing to Think Critically.

What Are Your Thoughts on Yeah Romans 11 of the Interpretations That Exist out There. One Is That It's the Decline of the Society As Head of the Order in Which Society Begins to Decline As God Said, and I Think It's Become Abundantly Clear in Our Society Today Is That We Do Not Have a Common Understanding of the Problem. The Problem Being Sin Not Just Sin As It Exists out There in the Culture As a Amorphous No Concept of Floating around but Sin That Begins in Human Hearts That We Are All Fundamentally a Part of the Problem We All Need to Change and When You Don't Have That Understanding Is Common Grounds. Anything That Comes after That Just Isn't Going to Make Sense.

We Have More and More People Believing That They Are Intrinsically Good There Virtuous Matter How Contradictory or Inconsistent.

They Are There Worldviews Right and Good and Pure and the Delusion and Scripture Says in Thessalonians 2 That There Will Come a Time When God Will Send the Strange Delusion on the People Will Not Understand and Whether This Is Whether This Is a Foreshadowing of Thank You for Not yet. He Said A Lot Of Really Great Things. It Reminds Me Saying I Struggle with Some Things That They Taught Her That They Believe Because on One Hand They Would Talk about How It Was the Protestant Reformation's Fault for Showing Man Is Being Inherently Sinful and Needing Change Needing to Be Born Again, and That It Was Joseph Smith and the Restoration about Back This Inherent Goodness and Man and at the Same Time the Book of Mormon Talks about How the Natural Man Is an Enemy to God, Unless He Yields to the Enticings of the Holy Spirit, and so I, Wrestled with That and I Think We've We've Talked by That Another Episode Stuart Seems like This Is a Good, Dichotomous View of the Nature of Man, of the Nature Formatted Cycle. How Do You Reconcile Those Ideas and I and I Think Is Latter Day Saints, Back and Forth.

I Generally Thought People in the World Were Generally Good People Just Kinda Made Some Mistakes, You Know, I Didn't Really Have an Understanding of the Depth Send out the Weight of Sin and the Offense It Is to God and so Really Learning about That from the Bible and from from Christian Doctrine and Theology, and Really, I Mean, I Kind of Knew That I Was a Sinner before but It's like When You Read It's Kinda like When Paul Says He Know When He Understood the Law He Yelled That He Understood the Weight of His Sin. No Heat in a Certain Sense. We All Know Are Sinners When You Really Understand the Stuff in the Spirit Witnesses to You. You Are Completely Lost and Needing Salvation. It's Just This Is the Most Humbling Experience, You Realize I Don't Have Anything to Offer God and Agree with You That I Think That Is, an Essential.

I Know That There Might Be Some Christian and Also Christian I Pass out There That Would Say That Would Agree That You Know People Are Generally Good and so Were to Try to Help Them Have a Better Life. That Kind of Thing but I Don't I Don't Think That's a Good Solid Foundation for Preaching the Gospel Know You Can Lose and Use Gospel. Thank You for That. So His Last Question, so What Would Be the Appropriate Christian Response to Those That Are Not of Our Faith, Love, from a Pure Heart, Conscience, That's Gotta Be a Response. We Don't Have Love or Not Right with That Love for Each Other. That's Her Testimony World's Mormon Song Is There That John 13. We Might Want to See If You Don't Want Us to See Breanna and Jan Michael Please Honor Do That Again Will We Have To Have That Local One Know That. Is There That Is Our World, but Then We Also Loved the World, and No What Christians Truly Believe the Doctrine of Hell, If We Truly Believe That These Human Beings That Are around Us Are Made in God and That by Their Objection of the Gospel. They Will Spend Eternity in Hell, Then the Only Loving Response. We Can Now Is to Proclaim the Good News of Christ and in Prayer That God Moves Us to Reach Their Heart Studies so We Had to Have Love to Have Enough Love to Confront People and Have Our Conversations That That's Really What Comes from Law, Not by Competition, Not from Wanting to Win an Argument, but Yeah Just a Little Bit That Gina Had a Couple of LDS Missionaries Stop by My Apartment Last Year and We Had a Couple of Discussions and I Usually Don't Even Jump Right into Doctrine When I'm Talking to LDS Missionaries.

I Know They Want to Talk about It Just As Much Light, so I Think That First Visit. We Just Talked about How When They Were from Other Missions Were Going to Stay Talk to Crazy People Just Have Exchanged Mission Story Is Gone through A Lot Of the Same Stuff That They Had and We Got around to the Doctrine and Talked about It in the Balls Reached out to Me Months Later Saying That They Trusted You Nauseous like Man like This, There's A Lot Of Christians That I Talked to Who Witness to Latter Day Saints. You Know Online and They Don't Think That It's Possible to Get to That Point. So I'm Just Wondering What Would You Say to Somebody like That They Were Telling You That They Just Didn't Think It Was Even Possible to Get to Have a Positive Conversation with a Mormon Is Some of the Missionaries Is Not Gonna Let Let You Get Close Legislative Number Missionaries Were Very like Business Minded or Not There to Build a Relationship or Friendship Me There. There for Business Came and Got Way That They Are but We Can Control the Way They Are Weeklong Control and so Will We Use the Open Seek Neither Friends, Especially the Missionaries Advised That We like Gay People Is Buying Pizza Sit down with Them and Talk Long Because They're Lonely Their Wife and Family Are Gone.

I Don't like This Guy Got Paired up with and so Probably Have a Rough Time Paren and Let the Lord Use That Love Them Enough so Much to Say to That yet.

Thank You for Saying Understanding That Missionaries Are People, First and Foremost We Can Think of Them As I Go Those Mormons in a Box and Sale.

We Can't, We Can Talk to Them Because There Mormons but Their People Know We Were All Missionaries and You Know Not All of Us Were Blessed with the Opportunity Served Stateside, Michael Let You Know. So Paul Paul Certain Hungry and I Served in Belgium and I Could. There Are Times I Didn't Have Any Meals with Any Church Members for an Entire Month and so We Were Eating Pasta and Sandwiches Every Day and I Got Really Boring. You Know Two or Three Meals a Day of the Same Stuff Every Day. So Just Add Some Nice Meals on the Just Spending Time with Them Talking to Them.

I Really Enjoyed Those Appointments of My Fondest Memories of Those You You You You Go Those Connections in That Office.

I Have a Hard Time Sometimes Remembering of LDS Things Are Christian Things, but I Think It's a Universal Truth You People People Really Care a Whole Lot about What Your Teaching Unless You Show Them First How Much You Care about Them. So If We Just Come at the My Car Salesman You Know I Recognize That Is What Is a Missionary That I Didn't Work Too Well and I Think I've Seen That Same Approach. On the Other Side Now Talking to Latter Day Saints in Chat Rooms See the Same Thing You Know, If You Just Come at Them and Say You're Wrong. These Are Heretical Heater Paint. Sometimes I Know Sometimes Approach Is Warranted. You Know Someone Not Depend on the Conversation but Same Time You Show You Still Need to Build up the Relationship Beforehand.

You Know If You're Just Laying down the Head of Justice All the Time. I Saw Christians Tell Me That You Know They Were Just Calculations One You Know Your You're Not Familiar Copier Cut off from God Is like Okay Well I Still You Know I Don't Want to Talk to so You Have Any. We Need At Least Some Kind of Connection Some Kind of Richness Hopefully Will Retry Due To Podcasting and Am Hope for and Relate Your Chart You Know the Primary, Secondary, and Another's Doctrines and I Don't Think That You're Trying to to Do That Right.

You're Not Trying to Divide Us in the Sense of Saying Were Better Than You Are Somehow Smarter Is Just Saying Look, Here's Where We Are His Worry Archaeologically and the Other Certain Things We Just Cannot Compromise so You Gotta Have Definitions Say That Anything Is Anything Any Other Kind of Embolism and Said That's Christianity, for Obvious Reasons. So We Have To Have Some Concept Is What Makes a Valid Genuine Framework and God of the Bible Absolutely Right. Good Discussion Tonight Guys. Jeremy, Thanks for Joining Us Listeners in Utah Valley Would like to Visit. How Can They Get More Information about Bible Church, Formerly Known As Payson Bible Church Yeah Yes I'm Getting Confused Here, but How Can Listeners Tune in to Your Do Theology Podcasts. Yes, over the Church Ordered Obama Church.com. We Have Found Bible Teaching. We Have a SoundCloud Account so Podcast Search the Bible Church Are Gastric Based on Sermon Series on Their Books of Galatians Esther around Me to Start at First Corinthians James All Bunch of Stuff on Their Bible Teaching Systematic Theology Class of the Year and We Started That Again so We're Happy That so Lots of Good Teaching and Podcast Theology.com Search Theology Podcasts Were Podcast Is Your Son Fun Conversations When Thanking Right and Had Some Interesting Guests on Their Religious Release.

The Couple Episodes Just over Sumter, but in Listening Recognizes Names but You Should Listen Longer Check Servicers of the Bible Expository Preaching Yeah Work or Committed Verse by Verse Chapter by Chapter Nolan. We Went to the Book of Esther Were Doing Chapter 2 at a Time. In Deuteronomy Did Very Slow down in Some Parcel of Verses Got of the Law. The Chapter That It's Time Now. Like in First Corinthians Pretty Slow Galatians James First and Second Thessalonians Slow Series. That's That's Awesome I Love That This Is Latter Day Saints.

The McClanahan Recent Entrenched Book of Scripture Once Every Four Years When We Really Think about It the Way That That Is Don't Study Matthew You Not Going to Read Everything from Matthew Is Selected Versus the Support Letter They Sent Doctrine Is the Last Year and I Physical Copy of the Sunday School Curriculum Are Just Dying. I Was so I Romans Was Two Sundays Six Chapters of Romans Two Sundays Chat so Far. Listeners Who Are Curious Who Post Latter Day Saints to Consider and Find a Church If You Can Find One like like Which Is Held by the Church or His Spinal Church. Check It out Because Expository Preaching Is Awesome. When I Was Next. Latter Day Saints Newly out and I and Tricia Was Doing Expository Preaching Me Away and I'm Unlearned Things and Heard Things from the Bible That I Had Never Heard before. Literally Never Heard before. So Check It out.

Think That's Awesome Jeremy That's Committed to the Sufficiency of Scripture Because Scripture Really Is God's Sufficient for All Things to Life and Godliness Will Best Slow down and What's Thanks Again Jim for Joining Us Normally Go out with Adam's Rib of Michael concerning This Again and Will Lose That Is around Us. Trying to Make Us Lose All of Our Listeners Getting Unsubscribe by the Patient Is Granted Is A Lot about Music to Me. We Should Get Mike on a Kazoo or Something like That or Harmonica. We Thank You for Tuning into This Episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd Love to Hear from You.

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