Immersion In Mormonism — Part 3

One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism.

Our thanks out program for that musical introduction welcome to this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM we continue looking at a book written by a man by the name of Charles Abbott.

He is an attorney I'm assuming he's probably retired by now.

Eric lycée Molly visits 70s when he wrote this book right and so I 76 in 2014. I'm sure he's been long retired. While the book title is immersion in Mormonism, especially for new members and also teams and members who struggle and again you might be asking why are we looking at a book that isn't written by anyone in the Mormon church has really any authority to speak on behalf of other people. I think it's good to look at some of the books that have been written by lady members in the church because of nothing else that gives us an idea of how they view their own faith.

We certainly don't want to use strawman arguments when we speak with Latter Day Saints. Although I do think there are occasions when Mr. Abbott does that in his book regarding what he thinks we believe, but we don't want to do that we want to be as upfront and understanding, Mormonism, to the best of our ability and so I think it's good sometimes to see what laypeople are saying and listening to the stories of how they converted to Mormonism so far and looking at just a few pages within this book. I would say that I see some flaws in Mr. Abbott's research that perhaps led him to some of the wrong conclusions that made him embrace Mormonism in the first place. I've written a review that's on our website MRM.org. If you go there and let/habit review with a hyphen between Abbott review and Abbott is spelled ABBOTT and you can see more than what were talking about here on the show's will. So far we've looked at some I think important doctrines of the Christian faith of obviously Mr. Abbott being a Mormon does not agree with. He's talked about the Trinity and he's talked about the great apostasy and such. But then, on page 16. He says that in his studies, he started to learn that there are numerous scriptures testifying of persons who saw God face to face and face to face is in quotation marks and or parts of his physical body.

Then he gives a number of verses from the Bible which we would consider to be merely theophanies, Christoph, and he but he assumes as most Mormons do that this proves that God has a body of flesh and bones that some of the verses I don't think support his position. For instance, he has Revelation 1912 and 15 and then he cites again. Revelation 1911 and 13, but those passages in the book of Revelation are speaking about God the father at all.

So I don't know how that would justify the Mormon position if they're trying to say that this proves that Joseph Smith could have seen God face to face in what's known as the first vision, but one thing that I found interesting in here. Among his many proof texts as he leaves one particular passage out that I think might put all of this into perspective. And it's a verse that I don't see a lot of Mormons citing either, at least not from the Joseph Smith translation and that's found in Exodus 33, beginning with verse 20 it says and he said unto Moses, thou canst not see my face at this time lest mine anger is kindled against the also and I destroy the and I people for there shall no man among them see me at this time and live for. They are exceeding sinful and no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time that shall see my face and live.

So here we find in the Joseph Smith translation in Exodus 33 that no sinful man at any time shall see the face of God and live will that's pretty telling when you consider that Joseph Smith admits in his testimony that he was a young man prone to doing sinful stupid things. So, if what we are reading in the Joseph Smith translation is to be believed, and by the way, it doesn't read in quite the same detail in our versions of our Bibles, but it does basically say that you can't see God's face and live the Joseph Smith translation seems to go a few steps further to make sure you understand that nobody is ever going to see the face of God and live. So the question then becomes, why did Joseph Smith claimed that well because I believe that when he is doing the Joseph Smith translation we know that he worked on. This inspired version as it's also call between 1830 and 1833 Joseph Smith wasn't telling anybody that he saw God's face. The idea of the first vision doesn't come around until later on in early Mormon history and we don't know of anybody who was talking about the first vision as it's understood today by most Latter Day Saints and I would even assume as understood by Mr. Abbott. I'm sure he believes firmly that Joseph Smith saw the face of God. Otherwise I don't think he would've included this paragraph on page 16, to try and support that position. But the fact is, according to Joseph Smith in 1830 to 33.

We don't know exactly what date he wrote this particular portion, but at least during that three year period going up to 1833 it doesn't seem that Joseph Smith is teaching that he saw God. Otherwise, why would he say what he says in verse 20 of Exodus chapter 33 and especially since he added to it and the manuscript evidence does not support what he is added in.

I think a lot of these things certainly start to raise a lot of questions for me.

And here again we have a case of a latter-day St., who's reading about Mormonism and I'm going to have to step out on a limb here and say I'll bet you a lot of what he's reading about Mormonism was from pro-Mormon sources we mentioned yesterday about his being enamored with LeGrand Richards book a marvelous work and a wonder he may have gotten a lot of his understanding of Mormonism from that book and you would think. Well, wouldn't Mormon apostle know what Mormonism is all about and have the wherewithal to be able to defend the Mormon position in that book you would think so, but as I've already mentioned there's a lot of points that LeGrand Richards uses in that book that I don't think a lot of 21st-century Mormons would use today, at least not the scholars and I think a lot of Mormon apologists have shied away from using some of the arguments that LeGrand Richards uses in that book as well, but he goes on to talk about his further study.

He gives this interesting story on page 17 where he says while I was engaged in this study of the churches I happen to visit a sick friend who was recovering in a Catholic hospital goes on and says while I was waiting to be admitted to his room. I spotted a Catholic Bible sitting on an end table next to my chair I had learned about the unique Mormon practice of baptism for the dead, and so I turn to first Corinthians 1529, where Paul is teaching the people about the resurrection and says quote else what shall they do, which are baptized for the dead.

If the dead rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead." There was a footnote in that Bible and it said that this apparently refers to an early practice in the church which was discontinued in 325 A.D. to me. This gave added credibility to claims that a restoration was needed. Now, he doesn't cite which Bible exactly he was looking at the Catholic Church is put out a number of Bibles I happen to have a do a reams version Catholic Bible and looking up first Corinthians 15 in this Bible. It does have a footnote for verse 29. But this is what it says in the footnote for verse 29 that are baptized for the dead, referring to the verse. Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use, but others more probably to the prayers and penitential labors performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed coming from a Catholic sourcing. In December they might draw the conclusion, but then it gives 1/3 option or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners, spiritually dead others. Three options that are given in this Catholic Bible and why would you think that there would be three options.

Probably because we don't know what Paul was really referring to many scholars will admit it's a vague passage. There's a number of ways that you could look at that verse.

This is where I question his memory. Eric, I'm assuming this is what he thinks he read that footnote in that Catholic Bible said that this apparently refers to an early practice in the church which was discontinued in 325 A.D. I wish he would provide the reference but why would they say 325 A.D. Council of Nicaea's only reason I can think of and I and I've never heard that ever before my life.

If that Catholic Bible as he is implying was trying to tie it into the Council of Nicaea.

That would certainly make no historical sense because baptism for the dead was not an issue at the Council of Nicaea right so why 325 and why would we expect to believe that if the church was really doing this as an official practice.

Why all of a sudden it ended in 325 who would have the kind of authority to make sure that every professing Christian who was doing that if they were would all of a sudden stop doing your making a good point there, especially since Arianism, which was the belief that Jesus was a created being. Even though it was denied at the Council of Nicaea has been Orthodox continued on for decades after.

They couldn't even get rid of a major heresy. How are they gonna be able to get rid of something like baptisms for the dead. I'm sure he's probably using his memory on this and we have to understand when he writes this book is 76 years old when he visited that Catholic hospital not even sure I'm getting the impression that he's reading this very early on in his studies. That's the way he gives the story so we could have as many as 50 years ago. This is when this experience happened to Mr. Abbott. He might've thought he read 325 A.D., but I I really question that I don't know if it actually said that if it did I and I'm wrong I will apologize, that's for sure, but it just seems a lot. I can imagine any scholars saying that and why would that be found in a footnote of the Bible just doesn't seem to make sense to me now on page 40 in his book under Chapter 3 he talks about the three main questions that we often hear Mormons bring up and that is where did we come from, why are we here and where are we going and of course to answer the first question, where did we come from. He's going to refer to this alleged time. When we existed as spirit children, he writes, where did we come from, there was a great war in heaven. It is referred to in revelations 12 seven through 17. However, until I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I never heard anything about it over a pulpit through the restoration.

We now know that we came from a preexistent state and because we didn't rebel against our father's plan.

We have been given life with bodies and the opportunity to overcome hardships and temptations and make choices that will help us to become better people. You're not going to find any type of explanation that is believed by Mormons regarding Revelation 12 seven through 17 that matches what he says in this paragraph. Now there's nothing in those verses that supports this. This is why he has to say that it has to come from modern-day Revelation or through the restoration. We know this.

The Bible does not support it. I would say you're on dangerous ground we start reading into the passages so many intricate details as the Mormons believe on these subjects will tomorrow were going to continue looking at this book, immersion in Mormonism. Thank you for listening you would like more information and research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you join us again as we look at another viewpoint is