Thanksgiving Thanks — Part 3

One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcomed this additional viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM. First of all let me wish you all listening to the show a very happy Thanksgiving. As we were mentioning yesterday.

At this time of the year. We like to set aside some time to thank all of you for what you have meant to us and how you have prayed for us in supporting this ministry and so when we look at a lot of the accomplishments that God has wrought through MRM. We certainly do not want to forget many of you out there who see this as a vital outreach and have prayed for us and supported this effort and so what we like to do at this time in years to go through some of the email. Some of the letters that we have received. Even some of the handwritten notes that we have received over the past year and talk about some of them as I mentioned yesterday. Many of these appear in our newsletter and without commentary. And so you have to kinda understand from reading our other newsletters what they may even be talking about but this is an opportunity we get to go through some of the comments we have received and just talk about the background of them and how much these comments mean to us personally. So Eric, let me start off with the first one because we are going to deal with a certain subject matter that has to do with these two emails that we received the first one said simply. Nice job. Thank you. I also like your viewpoint on Mormonism episodes on the death of Joseph Smith. Very interesting discussions we have oftentimes talked about the death of Joseph Smith. It's a very significant part of Mormon history because as you know many Latter Day Saints feel that Joseph Smith died as a martyr and that word brings up a lot of ideas.

What does that really mean to a latter-day St. I think if you look at the history and how Joseph Smith died that word martyr might have an Asterix by because he didn't really die and what we would say is the traditional way a martyr dies, he died shooting back at some attackers now do we blame him for wanting to defend himself. I understand the situation but would I consider myself a martyr if I was to behave in that kind of way. I personally don't think I would but LDS people do look at it that way. But let's look at a comment that this one person wrote us.

I find myself divorced enough from the church after all these years that I feel safe in doing my own research your videos have guided me to resources hiding in plain sight throughout Mormon literature. I was most struck by your presentation about the events surrounding Carthage jail. Now he's talking about a video of me talking about the events of Carthage jail that area shuffle wall of films.

When he came over one night for dinner with his wife, Stacy, and he wanted to just interview me on the subject was impromptu didn't do a lot of preparation. I think I had maybe one book in my lap at the time, but that's what he's talking about that video has been viewed over 597,000 times, which just amazes me over 597,000 views since it was posted in late September 2006. The letter continues.

I've listened to it a few times and I hope you'll appreciate that I verified your story in church history. The other day to Mormon missionaries knocked on my door. I had the time and I decided to talk with them.

I asked if we could talk about Joseph Smith. They agreed.

I began sharing the history of the jail. One missionary was from Argentina and the other was from somewhere in the states. As I discussed Carthage jail.

The Argentinian's mouth was agape. I don't think he ever heard the story before the American missionary stood there with his arms crossed each missionary share their testimony as to insert God into the discussion. I told him I was not about to argue with God but I remained interested in church history.

True to form, the conversation devolved.

I shared that I had learned much since my missionary years. The American missionary stated. Well that's what happens as you get older. I asked what happens. He replied, you just get old. I returned in my home sharing that the recent insult was not appreciated. Interestingly, the Argentinian missionary looked distressed by what transpired. I was reminded of one of your videos where you quoted Elma 530 through 31. I felt sickened by my last experience with missionaries, especially in light of this first. Alas, I was likely guilty of similar interactions.

When I was in Switzerland. Thank you for helping me in my journey.

I strive to free myself from all that was taught to me that has proven unreliable.

Let's go back because he cites Elma 530 and of course Elma 530 deals with mocking a person that you think might be an enemy of yours or mocking a brother is in Mormonism we are all brothers they would they would argue, and it's interesting how this individual who served on a mission recognize that his experience with these missionaries could've possibly been the attitude that he probably had while he was on his mission.

I wonder how many missionaries feel like that afterwards.

Maybe there's a little bit of regret. I know I have had regret of some conversations that I've been engaged with with some Mormon. Sometimes I look back and think I could've worded this a little bit differently or I could have acted this way and I'm sure there's probably a lot of Latter Day Saints. Looking back, that wish they could've done things a little bit better in their minds. But it's interesting how she talks about this Argentinian missionary, not really understanding or even knowing about this part of history. How many times have we come across Latter Day Saints who you think would know some of this history or know some of this doctrine, but appear to be completely oblivious to it have no idea that this was a part of their history and I think that's why we been seeing a lot of people leaving the LDS church. When they come to find out that the Mormon church is now admitting to a lot of these embarrassing moments in their own history. It will be interesting in 2020 when the church celebrates in April. The 200th anniversary of the first vision of Joseph Smith of God the father and Jesus does now be a lot made about this, but this is been an issue that has caused consternation for many Latter Day Saints who, when they found out that this is not historical, that there is no evidence that Joseph Smith really did have this experience when he was 14 years of age and it wasn't reported until almost 2 decades later that this supposedly event took place and yet the church is going to celebrate this and so I think church history has come to harm Mormonism and especially in the last seven or eight years as the churches acknowledge some of the things that we have known for many many years, but many Latter Day Saints did not and I personally know former Latter Day Saints who have left because the church is trying to come to grips with some of its controversial history and if you ignore your history. It will be made known.

If you doctor up your history you will get caught and I think in many areas. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been caught trying to portray a history that is not totally accurate.

Before we started recording the show. Eric you and I were talking about this whole celebration that they're going to have in the coming year. About the first vision and the comment I made and I'm probably going to make it a few more times in the year to come is they are having a huge celebration based on a bogus date you're going to celebrate anniversary of the date that can't possibly be right that I find to be very ironic, almost sad to us, to a certain extent, you might say because how many people really believe that Joseph Smith was just a young boy of about 14. We had this visitation of God the father in Jesus that took place in 1820 when it couldn't have happened in 1920, but praise God bill for bogus dates and bogus history.

Because this history as you said you're going to get caught in the church I think is reaping what the Internet is selling all over the world and letting people know that the things that this church is based on such as the first vision such as the book of Mormon and all of the other doctrines that are unique to this religion that, if it's not true. It's a religion that needs to be rejected by those who are in the church and those who are outside the church. And that's what we do here at Mormonism research ministry.

We want to be the equal opportunity provider to give you all the information not just select information and I think it's because of ministries like ours and Sandra Tanner's and others that the church had to come to grips with some of its history because we been talking about these things for a long time, but we didn't have the advantage of the Internet until the last 30 years and so the amazing thing is now were able to put this out so anybody can read it even if they're in foreign countries. Third World countries they stay still can get this information, we could never reach them before you go to another one that we receive this this person writes, praise the Lord for convicting me that I could never be good enough that sobering realization is what set me on my journey out of Mormonism 36 years ago. Keep up the good work God bless you in on that phrase. I could never be good enough, is a common expression that we hear from a lot of former Mormons. What's interesting is when we are challenging members of the church on that very issue. They tend to recognize that they're not good enough, they don't seem to be praising God. They were convicted of that notion till after they come out of the LDS faith, but the fact is folks, you can't be good enough. There is just not enough goodness in your fallen nature. If you hope to be saved by your good works now more might say all the way. That's not just about good works were saved by grace to. I fully understand that I know the LDS church is a doctrine of grace. But let's be serious. The doctrine of grace. According to Mormonism the atonement doctrine that they speak of, does not forgive the individual of their sins until they have done the appropriate repenting and keeping of the commandments that spelled out very clear in section 1, verse 32 of the doctrine and covenants another letter says as a lifelong Christian. I have often struggled with the Trinity. Your index page and resources are wonderful.

Thanks so much for all you do bill they're talking about our website that we have MRM.org/Trinity-index the last couple of years we've written 13 different articles on different nuances with the Trinity, so we invite you to go on and if you want to learn more about the Trinity, a very important doctrine something that's been taught in Christianity, but it's not taught in Mormonism and the reason why we want to have so many resources on this topic available because we know that it is an issue that's going to probably be brought up at some point