Harold B. Lee and Forgiveness Part 3

Mormonism 101 is research ministries Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson has helped many more to understand what separates Mormonism from the Christian faith. Mormonism 101 is bookstore online@mrm.org viewpoint, Mormonism is a program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint. Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. Our thanks to Ruben for that musical introduction welcome to this additional viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host Bill McKeever Felder director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson.

My colleague at MRM this week we've been looking at a book that was written by the 11th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints's name was Harold B. Lee. He wrote a book titled stand ye in holy places, and we been looking particularly at page 184. So far, but we do want to move on because Harold B.

Lee tells the story of a young man who came to his office.

Apparently while he was talking with his counselor Marion G. Romney and this man said that he had made mistakes in the past. He made a clean disclosure of all his mistakes to his bishop and stake president and he says after a period of repentance and assurance that I have not returned again to those mistakes. They have now adjudged me ready to go to the temple and as we mentioned seems strange to us as New Testament Christians. Not that we place a lot of emphasis in the temple because certainly that is not a part of the Christian faith. But in the Old Testament, the temple played an important role because that was where Jews would go to offer sacrifice on behalf of their sins. So this is why it sounds strange to us. Knowing how the Old Testament operated when it comes to the temple that a person who is repentant of their sins being counseled that you have to wait for a period of time before you can go to the temple would make no sense in an Old Testament context and certainly it would make no sense in a New Testament context.

He's not only seeking to go back to the temple but he says also to Marion Romney and Harold Bewley that that's not an off I want to know and how can I know that the Lord has forgiven me also and as I mentioned in yesterday's show. I commend this individual for that because as I stated, we have come across a lot of Latter Day Saints who feel that once they've achieved their temple recommend. They've gone through their interview with their ecclesiastical leaders, whether it's a bishop or stake president and there given their temple recommend the little card that they give that allows them to go into a Temple and participated they think they've arrived this gentleman knows that's not the case. He wants to have an assurance of forgiveness. I commend him for that.

I think he's asking the wrong people because Marion Romney and Harold B.

Lee Morgan to find out here. Later in the show are going to give bad advice. They're going to say that there's more that's needed. But I wish that he could've asked that question to a Christian pastor just to be able to ask that because what's a Christian pastor going to say is Guinness. They believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. That's what salvation is all about. So it's unfortunate that that's who he has to give him advice that Eric let me just interrupt at that point because I'm sure there probably some Latter Day Saints glistening right now and when you say that what is their presupposition telling them they're going to read something into what were saying that if you say you just have to believe in what Christ did and your saved.

Isn't that just easy believe is him which you and I both condemn and we said that many times. But what are they thinking are thinking of James 220 faith without works is dead.

They love that verse to bring up to an evangelical Christian. When we like to quote from Ephesians 289 we are saved by grace through faith. This is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, lest any man should boast. So James 220 is used to counter Ephesians 289 but if you're a Christian and you have James 220 given to you.

I think you need to say you fully agree with James in the audience that he was dealing with were people who said that all were saved by grace. There's nothing we have to do, not even Paul thought that because the next verse in Ephesians 289, right after he gets done sign, not by works, lest any man should boast. Verse 10 says for we are God's workmanship, created by Christ Jesus to do good works, which he prepared in advance for us to do so.

Paul is not minimizing the importance of sanctification because were saved onto good works, but in Mormonism. That's not the case you have to combine your works along with the grace second Nephi 2523 says that you are saved by grace. After all you can do so. Mormonism offers a much different gospel and I should mention here will be Lee loves second Nephi 2523 be talking about that but I think it should also be made very clear once again that when we say that there something that we do after we've come to faith. It's not something we do in order to be saved. It's something we do as a result of being saved and that is lost so many times on Latter Day Saints that we are talking to and I can't fault them. I guess because that's what they are being told they are mixing what justifies what sanctifies now after the story is told on page 184, at the very bottom. Harold B. Lee says this, he says, what would you answer one who might come to you asking that question continues as we pondered for a moment, we remember King Benjamin's address contained in the book of Mosiah. Here was a group of people asking for baptism and they said they viewed themselves in their carnal state many quotes Mosiah chapter 4 verses two through three and they all cried aloud with one voice saying, oh, have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ, that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts may be purified after they had spoken these words, the spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins and having peace of conscience and then there will be. Lee says there was the answer.

I don't understand why he says this he could've left that line out and just left it up to the imagination of the reader to try to understand why he inserts Mosiah 4233, but no, he says, there was the answer.

Okay, so the answer is in Mosiah 4233 in the book of Mormon. This could have been preached by any Christian pastor O, have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ, that we may receive forgiveness of our sins is through faith is according to this passage of Mosiah, there's nothing you have to do, you may receive this based on the atoning blood of Christ. What's interesting is that in this passage. It goes on to say after they had spoken these words, the spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins. It wasn't instant remission of their sins.

No, that's what the book of Mormon teaches, but is that what latter-day St. leaders have been teaching certainly not with consistency because you take Spencer Kimball, for instance, he certainly didn't think that you would get this instant remission of sins.

In his book the miracle of forgiveness. On page 324 and 325 he talks about meeting all the requirements. What does Kimball say on those pages. He says your heavenly father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking.

There must be works many works in an all out total surrender with the great humility and a broken heart and a contrite spirit. It depends upon you, whether or not you are forgiven and when it could be weeks, it could be years. It could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you, that depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitude still.

I see a lot of second person in here. It depends on you and your works.

Do we get that picture in the passage that Harold B. Lease sites on page 185 for Mosiah 4233. They all cried aloud.

There's a group of them even says here was a group of people asking for baptism and they said they viewed themselves and their carnal state what was the solution or what was the answer.

Remember he asked the question at the bottom, 184. What would you answer one who might come to you asking that question. And of course the question is how can an individual know they are forgiven and that's with this young man who came to his office wanted to know Temple participation was not enough for him.

He wanted the assurance that he was forgiven. The answer according to Harold B.

Lee is Mosiah 42 through three. He says there was the answer. They asked and wanted the application of the atoning blood of Christ on their life. This group that's mentioned here and they got it immediately. What was it in their life that was so different that they did it immediately, but yet Spencer Kimball says it depends upon you, whether or not you are forgiven and when it could be weeks, it could be years. It could be centuries before that happy day. Why does not Mosiah 4233 say well you're asking but it's not for the asking.

There's things that you have to do, and depending on your faithfulness and how good you do it.

It could be weeks, it could be years, but then that we get this weird thing could be centuries.

I don't have that much time that I don't have that much time either.

And certainly, centuries would make no sense if you believe Elma 34 in the book of Mormon that says it has to be done in this life you cannot procrastinate the day of your repentance even until death.

Otherwise, the devil seals you his foot when he says, there was the answer, Mosiah 4233 is the answer. But that's not true, and he even admits it in the In working to be looking at what he adds to this blessing.

This Eric, your latter-day St. in your reading this book and you read this conundrum that this individual has wanting this forgiveness. And let's say your latter-day St., who has an evangelical neighbor who's been asking you questions about what you believe in order to be saved in order to be forgiven and the latter-day St. reads this and goes low Mosiah 4233 is the answer. That's the answer I'm going to give my neighbor so that they know we believe that we trust in the mercy of God. When we come to him wanting his mercy that atoning blood of Christ is going to give us instant forgiveness of our sins, and then maybe he'll stop pestering me about what I believe but is not telling you the truth is that really the answer according to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I would say not hardly, in the reason I could say that is because even Harold B. Lee is going to admit that right after he says Mosiah four verses two and three is the answer. I think you're correct in saying that he should not have put, there was the answer. I don't believe Mosiah four is true, Scripture, and yet what he's giving is an idea that is very true for biblical Christianity. We would hold to this, but Mormonism does not, but for him to say there was the answer. It seems like a misuse of words. I think it becomes very confusing, which is really not all that unusual.

When you read some of the teachings of the leaders into going back to the comment I made earlier about pitting a dead prophet with a living prophet.

This is probably one of the reasons why is her to Benson thought that that should be a good procedure. Don't listen to the past profits, which means, of course, we shouldn't listen to Ezra Taft Benson who told us not to listen to dead prophets. But tomorrow were going to go on in here will be Lee's book on page 185, when he gives us a little bit more than just Mosiah 4233. Thank you for listening.

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