Prophecy of War Part 4

Viewpoint on Mormonism. The program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint: Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 is a research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect.

And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism what the circumstances led to the American Civil War. Welcome to this additional viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder director Mormonism research ministry in with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM this week we've been looking at an article that was written by a 70 in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A man by the name of Matthew S. Holland has we mentioned Matthew Holland is the son of Mormon apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, and in the August 2021.

Addition of Leona magazine has an article titled prophecy of war prescription for peace, Mr. Holland believes that the specifics of section 87 in the doctrine and covenants, which speaks of coming war is proof that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God and as we been talking about this week we don't feel that what Joseph Smith was believing and saying in section 87 was really all that unique, especially when it comes to the coming tensions between the North and the South because Joseph Smith living in Kirtland Ohio at the time was in the vicinity of the newspaper known as the Painesville telegraph which predicted that there was probably going to be secession of the southern states from the northern states. It was an article titled the crisis and it was printed in the Painesville telegraph, Painesville, Ohio is not that many miles from Kirtland, Ohio were Joseph Smith was living at the time felt there were some things in section 87 that I found Matthew Holland seems to gloss over, and I want to talk about those today. First of all, let's go back to verse five in section 87.

It reads, and it shall come to pass. Also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry and shall vex the Gentiles with the sore fixation not at first reading. If you understand that the Lamanites are considered the ancestors of the American Indian that this may be talking about the American Indians who were fixing the Gentiles and we know there was certainly a conflict for many years in American history between the Native Americans and as they would say the encroachment of the white man on their territory. That certainly led to a lot of what have been called Indian wars and such. But there's an interesting comment on page 195 of the manual doctrine and covenants student manual religion 324 and 325 and I want to read something from this to you this is referring to verse five and asked the question who are the remnants who are left of the land. It says the word remnant is often used in the Scriptures to refer to a segment of the house of Israel because the Savior made specific promises about the remnants of the neophytes and Lamanites. Many have assumed that this verse refers to the Lamanite peoples who would at some point arise and quote vex the Gentiles doctrine and covenants section 87 verse five, but then it cites Joseph Fielding Smith, who also made this interesting comment still on page 195. In other places, the word remnant is used generally of all Israel. In some places it refers to the Jews, and in some cases it refers specifically to the Latter Day Saints. So it is possible that the remnants mentioned in doctrine and covenants 87 five could include people of the house of Israel other than the Lamanites now if we were to take that understanding that is just been given to us by the 10th president of the church. Joseph Fielding Smith.

That would mean that there's a possibility of Israelites are Israelis vexing the Gentiles doesn't seem very likely will the other option would be Mormons are going to vex the Gentiles because remembering Mormonism. They feel that they are Israel and everyone outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints comes under the category of Gentile, so let's go back and wonder verse five and it shall come to pass. Also that the remnants who are left of the land. Sounds like there's not going to be very many people here doesn't it will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore fixation will if it's not speaking of the Native Americans. The only other option that seems even remotely possible, would be Mormons vexing the Gentiles, so I'm kind of confused as to why Joseph Fielding Smith. We want to say something like that when it looks like the Gentile people have something to fear of their Mormon neighbors. Now that's not something that you hear every day, but then we come to verse six and section 87, and thus with the sword and by bloodshed. The inhabitants of the earth so worn and with famine and plague and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven and the fierce and vivid lightning also shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath and indignation and chastening hand of an Almighty God until the consumption to create have made a full and of all nations. Jesus say something very similar to that seat again. What we find here in our opinion, looking from the outside. Naturally Joseph Smith is merely plagiarizing things that Jesus said in the Mormon church is in this case going to credit Joseph Smith Matthew 24, six through eight says this, Jesus says you will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still become nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. But in verse six it says that the inhabitants of the earth will be made to feel the wrath and indignation and chastening hand of an Almighty God until the consumption to create have made a full end of all nations, or we to assume this full end of all nations can be traced back to the rebellion in South Carolina this coming the impression that I'm getting here from some of the things that Matthew Holland has said, as well as some other leaders but then it says that the cry of the saints and of the blood of the saints shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabbath, from earth to be avenged of their enemies. Now that's an interesting statement because Heber C. Kimball made a very curious statement in a talk that he gave on April 14, 1861.

Now I find the date to be of specific interest because Fort Sumter was fired upon.

On April 12, 1861 there was an attack that lasted about 36 hours. So you could see it ended on April 14, 1861, which just so happens to be the date that Heber C. Kimball gives this talk in the tabernacle in Salt Lake City now could he have known about the firing of Fort Sumter that quickly. I don't know, but this sounds very peculiar to me at the end of his message. He says in this country.

The North and the South will exert themselves against each other and air along the whole face of the United States will be in commotion fighting one against another, and they will destroy their nationality. They will destroy their nationality. Does that not sound very familiar to what we read. At the end of verse six, Almighty God, until the consumption decreed have made a full end of all nations. Kimball is saying that that's going to be the result of the North and the South fighting against each other. They will destroy their nationality and listen to what he says they have never done anything for this people. This people, of course, in this context is talking about the LDS people and I don't believe they ever will. I have never prayed for the destruction of this government but I know that disillusioned sorrow, weeping and distress are in store for the inhabitants of the United States because of their conduct towards the people of God, does it not sound like Heber C.

Kimball is saying that the conflict between the North and the South is the result of how the government they felt treated the LDS people. Joseph Smith certainly did feel that he was slighted by the American government, but this is what Heber C. Kimball says earlier in this talk, he says that the bottom of page 54 of the Journal of discourses, volume 9. This is where I'm reading this, he says now think of these things reflect upon them, and so sure is you have seen a few things. So Shirley will you in the Lord's own due time seem anymore and you will see that our father will deliver his people.

Every time their enemies come upon them. Yes, it will be so from this time forth and forever. Then, in addition to this, you will find that this priesthood through those who hold it in righteousness will rule the nations of the earth forever and ever. Still on page 54, volume 9, Journal discourses, will those who hold the priesthood govern with a rod of tyranny know, but it will be done by the power of the priesthood of the Almighty, which is compared to an iron rod the nations will eventually have to come and bow down before this priesthood and to this people and they will be willing to lick the very dust off their feet.

Yes, and they will be perfectly willing to lick the dust from the feet of those men whom they slew in Carthage. Of course, that's a reference to Joseph and Hiram Smith. If they can be permitted to be in their presence. It sounds like there was a certain understanding, at least by Heber C. Kimball that section 87 in this prediction of future war tween the North and the South was going to happen because of the atrocities that the Latter Day Saints felt that the US government had put upon them certainly been the tensions in all the circumstances leading up to the American Civil War were much more complex than having anything to do with the Latter Day Saints but I find it very fascinating that Heber C. Kimball would make comments like this that we have one minute left. Summarize what should we think about with D&C 87, when it comes to Jesse Smith in his ability to be a prophet as we've been saying all this week we don't find that a lot of the things that Joseph Smith claims in this short revelation is all that profound, especially when it comes to a coming civil war between the North and the South when you have a newspaper in the area were Joseph Smith lived talking about this very thing. You can't really credit Joseph Smith was some kind of revelatory experience. This is why I have a problem with what Matthew Holland is saying when he tries to make the comparison was Joseph Smith. Merely being observant or was he being prophetic.

Even the details that he gives you have to really do some stretching. In order to make those details work and as we talked about this week.

The fact that England would be called into the conflict and they would have to ask other nations to come and defend them. You don't get that from the era of the Civil War. This is why Matthew Holland and other Mormons have to say. Will this also includes World War I and World War II.

Why did they do that because without those elements that no longer makes any sense.

I wouldn't agree with Matthew Holland that this is really as he says, section 87 proved remarkably pressing enter how Joseph Smith knew before hand.

Such prophecy should help build our faith in Christ and his chosen servants. This also seems to neglect the fact that Joseph Smith made many other predictions that did not come to pass.

The way he said so. We should also take those into consideration with section 87. Thank you for listening.

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