10 Reasons Why We Cannot Fellowship with the LDS Church Part 9

One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective view .1 limited sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome of this additional viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKibben, founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Aaron shuffle all of my colleague at MRM last weekend this week we've been looking at a statement that was made in 1897 by a Presbyterian group in Utah. This statement kind of grew up among a lot of the various denominations in the state of Utah. It was titled 10 reasons why Christians cannot fellowship the Mormon church so we been going through some of the problems that they had when it comes to LDS doctrine and this week we're looking at the real bottle that was given by a Mormon, general authority by the name of BH Roberts. So far Aaron.

He seems to be agreeing with much of what has been said in this statement, he doesn't like the way some things are sad, but he can't deny that the premise of what they're objecting to seems to be true in most interesting part of the rebuttal by BH Roberts is that he says we do not believe our own good works is the basis of individual forgiveness. But here's the parts we regard the atonement of the Christ and the fact that he suffered for our sins and the sins of all the world as the basis of forgiveness. But we do believe, and it is scriptural that men must on their part. Repent of sin obey the ordinances of the gospel, and thus by coupling their obedience with God's grace. They may attain under salvation. This basically confirms the suspicion even though he says it's not, so it's on the basis of works it's it's confirming a suspicion by coupling works with grace and it shows that is not really operating from the biblical categories of, for example, salvation by grace through faith apart from works. The idea here is that faith alone that faith only is the instrument which a believer uses to receive the immediate and free and permanent gift of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life and the gift of the Holy Ghost, but he's teaching that we need to keep the ordinances and couple God's grace with our obedience to attain this salvation so little of it of semantics going on here again, the whole Mormon system from beginning to in as a merit system. The whole reason why were coming to earth is to prove our worthiness in our mortal bodies to see if we are going to qualify and merit the kind of position one could have in the celestial kingdom where one becomes a God where one is worshiped by feature set of spirit children. I mean the whole division of the three kingdoms of of the celestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms is on the basis of a differentiation of merit the differentiation of performance a differentiation of of obedience and worthiness that the language of the Mormon church of this wordiness languages is thorough within the LDS church just kind of shifting emphasis are sprinkling on some rhetoric of grace. It doesn't really change the fact that when you cut into the cake of Mormonism underneath the frosting is a rank merit system based on what BH Roberts said not, let's let's go back as he was responding to point number eight the Mormon church teaches an anti-biblical doctrine of salvation, it requires faith in Joseph Smith in the book she produced or translated in the priesthood and continuous revelation and baptism by immersion by the hands of a Mormon, together with faith in the father son and Holy Ghost.

So the rebuttal that you just gave us seems to concur with the accusation that was made against the LDS church. Point number eight of this statement. 10 reasons why Christians cannot fellowship the Mormon church.

This is what I find fascinating. He's actually agreeing that they got it right. There's no greater compliment that when you bring up something to a latter-day St. about their unique doctrine and they say to you, you got that right. That's exactly what the church teaches there were some issues with the document that we have. We thought it could be Nuance better clarify the times and there's a few things over which BH Roberts took issue with. But, in large part by the end of the rejoinder, but in the rebuttal. The conclusion is oh wow BH Roberts responding to these 10 complaints. He, in essence, and as a whole confirms the complaints that the Presbyterians had with the LDS church that he also has a section in there on the doctrine of baptism for the dead, but is he do with that. He quotes first Corinthians 1529 else what shall they do with your baptize for the debt.

If the dead rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead just because that's mentioned in the New Testament doesn't mean that it it goes along with what the Mormons believe. Today we have no evidence from that vague statement that Paul makes that they were actually going to the temple to be baptized for the dead. Because that's the only place it can be done. There's no way that the Christians would have even had permission to go use the temple for such an ordinance, the Jews would never have let the Christians do that if that was going on at all.

An interesting point.

These Corinthian believers. There in Corinth, it's Paul who is making a circuit journey around Asia minor and annual Thessalonica and on the client at different times trying to collect money to get to go all the pain is journey back to Jerusalem and wait. When he arrives at Jerusalem. The is quite a bit of drama that Paul, you know, or other Christians are there so the idea that the Corinthian the common Christian in Corinth was making some sort of track. Although he town to the Jerusalem Temple.

I guess you have to modify that claim Whitney that they were doing some sort of baptism fitted outside the temple right well they're not supposed to according to modern Mormonism and has to be done in a temple that's one of the major reasons for the temple since most of the rituals being done in a Mormon temple has to do with baptism for the dead and point number nine. This Presbyterians statements of the Mormon church believes in polygamy. The doctrine is to them both sacred and fundamental they believe and teach that Jesus Christ was a polygamist. You have to remember the date, folks, because this is the end of the 1800s, and certainly a lot of these teachings were pretty fresh at that time you don't hear this doctrine being the spouse often today, but that was a different time back then and so this was an objection that they raised but his response was the Mormon church does not teach that Jesus Christ was a polygamist.

It is absolutely silent on that subject will Mormon apostles were pretty vocal on that. I mean we find Orson Hyde talking about that, Jedediah M. Grant talked about that and I don't recall them ever being rebuked by Brigham Young. I think this is the official complaint of the Christians is that your highest leaders were celebrating and disseminating this idea that God himself was a polygamist and that this is the order of the cosmos of the exalted beans in it.

This became a belief among the Mormons in response to the teaching of your leaders. It was never repudiated and again this is 1897 in this document. It originally is is drafted with the 10 complaints and the 1890 manifesto which suspended polygamy did not principally condemn it as a theology. It basically looks forward to a time when it would be recovered someday and so you forget critics if you're a latter-day St. what you do if you latter-day St., and you are part of the generation where you were sitting in the tabernacle when your highest profit taught this, you just throw that away.

When he dies at what you do with all these older believers in the LDS church.

You believe that God was a polygamist. To say that the institution is silent is not to say that older prophets haven't taught it and had tremendous influence on the members with respect to this belief in the name of God, presenting as a written auricle of God.

The 10th point. This point deals with a complaint made in the statement that the Mormon church teaches that God is a polygamist. The natural father of all intelligent beings in heaven and earth and hell that angels men and devils are his offspring by procreation or natural generation and that Adam is the father of Christ human nature as Brigham was father of his children.

He says the Mormon church and he's got Mormon in quotation marks does not teach any of those things here set forth really.

Now I'm sure he's only referring to what he views as an official capacity but folks you have to remember this was being taught by people during this time. Any Brigham Young, for instance, he made it very clear why do we believe in and practice polygamy because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith and that the Lord's servants have always practiced it in is that religion popular in heaven. It is the only popular religion.

Therefore, this is the religion of Abraham, and unless we do the works of Abraham. We are not Abraham's seed, and heirs according to promise.

If the only man who can become God's even the sons of God are those who enter into polygamy and that's what Brigham Young said on August 19, 1866. This can be found in the Journal of discourses 11, page 269. Would it not make sense that if God or Elohim. Heavenly father, Mormonism was to be exulted to a God. And this is an eternal principle would not have God the father practiced polygamy.

It seems like a part of the original system here was a scheme of glory where if you were adding wives, you could build up your kingdom, you could build up more children you could build up more of a family and so it seemed natural to early Latter Day Saints that God would have been a polygamist and that the highest and most honored members of the LDS church that the leaders would be polygamists and so they took great pride in this again I have to ask, are you willing to belong to a religion where you claim to have living oracles of God that publicly teach things about God and the gospel that you later have to treat as falsehood. I are you going to be obedient to Jesus. Are you going to be a disciple of Jesus.

Jesus said watch out for false prophets and that he essentially says you'll know their false prophets when you start treating them like diseased trees. What BH Roberts is doing here is is basically saying that LDS leaders in part, have been diseased trees going bushes and thistles on the question of whether God is a polygamist.

What about in the statement with a talk by the angels men and devils are his offspring by procreation.

When that go along with the story of the war in heaven that you had Lucifer who Mormons do not disagree was a spirit brother of Jesus the son of Elohim and heavenly mother.

One of the heavenly mothers at that time it gets very confusing because this is during the polygamy era, but they believe that he was a literal offspring. They believe that all the demons are literal offspring of heavenly father. Her so much for the idea that many Latter Day Saints to have told me what God would never punish his own children in such a way such as hell will that's exactly what he's doing with the demons because their only sons and daughters, and they're all going to outer darkness. So obviously that is a part of Mormon theology. So when he tends to say that that's not really true. I don't know if he's being accurate on that BH Roberts doesn't seem to contest so much the idea that there's a's system of sexual generation between the gods and offspring that he more contests. Perhaps the more the details say around, God himself being a polygamist in tomorrow's show were going to look at the rejoinder to BH Roberts because after BH Roberts gave his defense. This group of Christians in Utah at that time. This would be in the 1920s offered a response to what BH Roberts had to say thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website at www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you'll join us again as we look at another viewpoint is as with most Christian organizations Mormonism research ministry depends on the generous financial support of friends like you. If you like what we do and how we do it, would you consider helping a more immediate financial obligations really go to my website and MRM.org at the right you'll see in only click there and follow the instructions. MRM is a Christian nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization and your gifts are tax-deductible, and only that they are greatly appreciated.

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