Interview with Tom Hobson Part 3

Viewpoint one Mormonism program and examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcomed this additional viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Tom Hobson, Tom Hobson wrote the book of the historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith, and we been discussing what's in this book.

Now Tom is a former pastor is an educator and has burden for the LDS people for many many decades with Tom welcome back to the show great debater built today I'd like to look at what you have in chapter 5. Who can tell us the truth about Joseph now in a previous show we both seem to agree that going after the credibility and person of Joseph Smith is not usually the best idea in a witnessing situation when you're talking with a Mormon. However, I do think it's very important that we as Christians understand what kind of a character Joseph Smith. In fact, was and relate that information to someone who may be considering joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because Joseph Smith plays a very important role in the life of the Latter Day Saints and of course in the whole Mormon narrative when it comes to the subject of Mormonism that you have on page 29 in chapter 5 the subheading Tom titled evaluating the sources one to relate for our listeners how you decided what sources you would use my strategy in the book is to try narrow things down to fact that temple, LDS, and I can both agree on.

So I try to avoid what they might consider to be rumors or material from Joseph's enemies and try try to zero in on sources there. Joseph himself or those most close to him and most favorable towards him.

Ideally evaluate certain historical treatments of Joseph all away from the LDS church is historical department released in the fall 2018, which I call Saints.

The standard of truth for short very proud Joseph more honest than previous pieces written by the Mormon church but still not been all the cards on the table but that's helpful if you can quote from their Richard bushman is the most evenhanded fellow I can find that gives you all the stuff I would want to know about Joseph strengthened the faith of some.

It is because others lose their faith unit at the other end of the spectrum, you have the works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner that are impeccable.

Actually, definitely from a critical perspective, but I like competent prosecutors.

They make their case and make it thoroughly because they know where to find the evidence to back off and go to the tanners when trying to figure out where I wear a quote from Brigham Young. They got it so that you have bushman and Fong Brody in the center. I'm little wary of Fong Brody because she tends to inject a lot of naturalistic assumptions and her attempt to describe Joseph, and I kinda wonder whether she might do the same with Jesus. So any reader that wants to know the truth about Jesus and Joseph would utilize Brody's book with caution. Bushman I find very helpful as a starting place. But then there are going straight to the sources and I list them on page 30 of the book places that many of which are available online.

Joseph history of the church's diary early journals like the millennial Star times and seasons. Journal of discourses I tend even though I find another expositor to be believable and definitely worth reading. The one addition that ever got published. I realized Mormon Street them to be enemies of the church. Although they became enemies of the church because of some issues that the rest of us would find to be concerning as well. I think your services again.

I like the way you evaluate them when it comes to the LDS church history department and you mentioned the book saints and standard of truth. So far they've come out with two editions of that. I expect to more from what I understand, but I found the first edition, especially because one of things I would often deal with when it comes to the origins of Mormonism has to do with the plates.

The gold plates in the book of Mormon. Such and it hasn't excellent section in there on how Joseph Smith retrieve the gold plates and I could just read that to Latter Day Saints and there's no denying it is coming from their own source, though it is much more I think transparent is the word we like to use than in past editions. As you've noticed it makes it very difficult for Latter Day Saints to explain away how Joseph Smith supposedly retrieve these plates and eventually how he translates them. You mention Richard bushman a very good competent scholar, very good, competent historian. I agree with you when ever I had someone ask me what book can I give to my LDS loved one who's not quite ready to read something from let's say the tanners I would go to Richard Hill bushman's book rough Stone rolling the main reason why is because he's a member of the church is a faithful member and you're right, he brings out some things that probably raise quite a few eyebrows that many Latter Day Saints believe that even though Joseph Smith was not perfect, and none of us are claiming that he is wise, they still believe that he was a virtuous man. What's your opinion regarding the character of Joseph Smith I and so I have to try and share this in a general way as possible.

I am convinced Joseph was both a deceiver and a false teacher and the FAA. If it's true that God did not reveal plural marriage to Joseph and he is also sexually immoral, but regardless on that third point he was a deceiver in that he constantly deceived his wife and followers as the saints the and the standard of truth will concede we constantly deceived them classy to trying to deceive all of us when he claimed to translate quote" the book of Abraham and the fact that it was anything but a translation shows that he failed to see both about that. He is likely to have deceived us as well on his translation of the Bible, which I think I can prove plus is claimed or translated the book of Mormon.

We don't know whether those plates existed or not.

But even if they did, how can we trust him to have translated them to life and deceiver false teacher, particularly his teaching about the nature of God and true prophet has to be, we gotta be able to trust that they do not deceive us and that their teaching must be consistent with what God is already told us, particularly about the nature of God. I would totally agree with you on that.

The Bible does give us quite a few of the attributes of God. Even though we can't certainly understand God completely, nor do I think finite individuals would never be able to understand the infinite God there's enough in there that gives us an idea of who God is, here comes Joseph Smith on the scene and completely contradicts a lot of those very clear teachings which I think would of course disqualify him as being a true prophet of God. Have you used. For instance, like Deuteronomy chapter 13 as it is a text when talking to Latter Day Saints when it comes to Joseph Smith's title of being a true prophet. Why don't cited.

Perhaps I do basically prophet has to teach the truth about God, even if these prophecies come true.

But he said let us go after other gods, all that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. I look at how Joseph also his teaching changed in chapter 19 he goes all away from what I call hyper Trinitarian more Trinitarian than the in the New Testament itself to his bike theism to gods of flesh and bone and then goes on from that to what I call God's unlimited at the end and then I ask in many LDS have a hard time explaining will which one do we go with the first one or the last one that becomes really problematic because Joseph Smith's theology certainly evolves through time.

The Joseph Smith of 1844 is not really the Joseph Smith of 1830 in Kirtland. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that on page 66 of your book you talk about a church that vanished without a trace in an earlier broadcast. We are talking about the great apostasy tell us about this. A church that vanished without a trace.

Why do you feel that this idea of a great apostasy certainly is not a good reason to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Well, we've already talked earlier about the issue of whether plain and precious items were taken out, the Bible that otherwise would approve the LDS account but basically the obvious claim that the church of the first century was led by a living prophet that they had apostles that were meant to be on an ongoing part of the top leadership that they had a Melchizedek priesthood with thousands of priests that a majority of male members ages 12 and up were elders and deacons at the first century church was the same as the modern church. They also believe that their eternal marriages were sealed in their temples and that LDS doctrine was taught in the first century church. I believe the whole list goes out the window when we look at the biblical evidence which I discuss in chapter 10 basically to make this claim, there is you have to end up going back to their refuge for an plain and precious teachings getting taken out and again where's the evidence that I think that's one of the huge problems with the whole claim of the LDS church.

If it isn't, in fact, a restoration, why is it we don't see in the New Testament church that represents what the LDS church is today. We just don't.

I think you're spot on that time and that that becomes very problematic because they're the ones that use the word restored all the time. Restored gospel restore church were the only true church. Why are the only true church because we most closely represent the church that Christ built in his mortal ministry, yet we can't find those unique aspects of the Mormon church in the New Testament, they can easily say will those things were taken out in my response would be. How convenient that all the things that make you unique are not found in the New Testament and you go, you go to the early second century, 100 A.D. church youth line being described by Ignatius doesn't look one thing like today's LDS church, but it looks very much like the church of 60 A.D. that all pictures for before we in the show the historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith once again let our listeners know where they can get a copy of this book, I would point them to the books website historical Joseph.org historical Joseph.org on the homepage are five links per Amazon, Barnes & Noble Utah lighthouse ministry. The lowest price can be found through the company site for HarperCollins Christians, Zondervan, and Thomas Nelson called church source.com search source.com historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith. We been talking to Tom Hobson, the author of this book.

Tom, thanks for taking the time to be with us on the show will make you bill it is been a pleasure. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information is research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter is research. We hope you join us again as we look at another viewpoint. As with most Christian organizations is research ministry depends on the generous financial support of friends like you if you like what we do and how we do it, would you consider helping a more immediate financial obligations really go to my website MRM.org right you see in only click there and follow the instructions.

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