The Worship Wars (Part 1)

There is a war going on. It's called the worship wars that's next. The Bible teaches that in the end days and apostasy will sweep this earth unlike anything ever seen before. Ladies and gentlemen we are living in these days.

Now there is a generation that will produce churches that are completely indistinguishable from the nightclubs and bars of the world, yet they still claim to be Christians like the crowd like a rock in the lines around the block are enough.

Any nightclub in this church. Welcome to understanding the times radio John Markel what you buy all of three ministries team is taking a much needed Christmas break, presenting what became our most appreciated. Two-part radio series a year ago music in the church worship wars. How did music become the great divider talk about it with our guest pastor Brandon whole house and really be honest about the subject. We have to admit that music is one of several battlegrounds worship. It's a tough one because the Bible doesn't say thou shall not listen to this song with the Bible gives us his principles about the holiness of God about the nature of worship and we are to cling to those principles and seek to apply the I think we can say this insofar as we are introducing elements into our worship through music which are on holy which are flesh centered, which turn our worship into mantras and repetitions, as opposed to substantial declarations like the ones we find in the Psalms about the living God to be missing the mark and the problem is like a delicious bowl of Cap'n Crunch cereal if you keep feeding that to a child there to keep loving it.

But it doesn't make it and so we have an entire generation of children that are being spoonfed Cap'n Crunch theology in their worship service and its toxic. It's literally changing their appetites like things which are unholy and unhealthy for the that means were going to have to go back to some basics simple things singing the Psalms speaking basic truths, singing with holiness without all the trappings that the world has in a way that we are really lifting up our hearts before God and not simply being caught up into an emotional frenzy welcome to the program. I am so glad you're able to join me today were beginning an interesting couple weeks series here on the worship wars music in the church and there is no greater divide in the church today than the style of music being played in the divide is usually age driven one generation wants one style and another generation wants a different kind of music, perhaps more subdued.

Maybe a return to Ham's son years ago equally. Controversy is the character and reputation of groups producing today's music. So while some would disagree two large empires produce a great deal of today's Christian music one would be Jesus culture they had quarter out of Bethel church Redding California and Hill song which originates out of Australia. These folks have branches around the world and in some cases, the theology expressed in some of the music sung in churches today is not the best one songs sayings about God's reckless love.

I want to say more about that but the YouTube version of that song has almost 85 million listeners right now.

It may not be sound theology, but no one seems to mind is God's love really reckless while Hill song is called an international empire, but is it sound also has produced more than 40 elves sold over 11 million copies what the soundness of the theology of many of the suspect. In fact, redemption is first and foremost for the glorification of the triune God's will. Because of these controversies, I began getting emails some time ago just read one quickly here.

Lisa writes the songs being played on Christian radio that are from Hill song Jesus culture and other artists who are new apostolic Reformation emergent.

Other things are prevalent in the churches.

Even where you don't necessarily hear false doctrine being preached from the pulpit it's entering in through the music and the people seem to be clueless.

Lisa says the older people don't necessarily like some of it but they are seeing the young people get excited about the Lord except it's a different Jesus. So my husband and I are quite distraught by this trend and it seems that the Christian music industry has been hijacked. We would very much like more information on this. There isn't much safe Christian music out there anymore cell that has set the stage for the programming here. I am joined for the balance of the programming by a pastor who is outspoken about using proper music in the church. Brandon hold house pastors Rock Harbor Church in Bakersfield, California. Eric Barger also joined me he has a background in music as a musician as a record producer and more that would be years ago and gentlemen. Thank you both for joining me for the program. Thanks Jennifer have a man thanked Eric to branded you as a pastor and you said something interesting to me the other day and use green all the songs from your worship leader but you produced seven major issues with Christian music these days. I just enter it each of the seven bullet points and I want us to discuss them for a minute you cite the seven issues as non-theological lyrics romantic lyrics to God number three and throw Poe centric lyrics instead of theocentric lyrics for the artist of the groups personal lives or theological stands. The lyrics might be fine, but the source the artist of the groups are either apostates promoting false doctrine, or promoting false worship methods such as yoga, contemplative prayer, or they come out as practicing homosexuals such as Jennifer Knapp or Ray Boltz or at least supporting the LGBT movement number five you state ungodly performances here. You cite, and I've seen this online Hill songs New York women's conference. Having the youth pastor impersonate the naked cowboy. This is horrific, have seen it Hill song having a Christmas performance in which they portrayed Jesus being born in a bar and they have taken that down from YouTube, but they did have this performance or the wild goose festival, which was a four day extravaganza of music involving reconciliation yoga progressive Christian mysticism number six. The use of long and loud music sessions 45 minutes to an hour to put the people in an altered state of consciousness knowingly or unknowingly, music is used as a stimulus bombardment to the emotions and physiology of the person to bypass the intellect and create a mental state number seven worship attainment. This derives from the seeker friendly movement artists are creating a Broadway type of show to entertain. In other words, smoke and lights. Elvis impersonators Michael Jackson thriller reenacted many of them will misapply Paul's statement in first Corinthians 922, which states, by all means I might save some and use it to justify what they do.

Brandon as a pastor, then do you take a lot of this back to the church growth movement, but you certainly do not think a lot of it started with the intent was to reach the younger crowd. So with that intent that will how were going to do this over to do it through music and were going to play certain songs with certain lyrics work on a played out certain volume level and were going to do it at the expense of a lot of other people believe the older generation.

So that's caused a lot of the culture wars were seen in the churches.

Now, as you know, as people walk into somebody's worship places that have to be given your plug and scream so loud and I'm to blame for secular music done Calvin Elvis impersonators or whatnot just to entertain people. So yet that deftly comes out of the church growth movement that is one of the target audiences of the church growth movement and not become a problem today. Eric does this go back to Peter Drucker, is that this goes back to I think this whole idea is taken quite a while to involve.

It is probably pretty hard to point at just one particular thing, but Peter Drucker certainly had a big influence, because the whole teaching of the idea that you're going to build a big church or bigger church and this is can be one of the main elements by changing the music in the church to bring in younger people and you we all want to see younger people come to church. We all want to see churches grow but how were doing it.

I think the ethics and the whether it's biblical or not. The way were doing it I think is very important these days anything goes and I just brought the idea of earplugs and someone it's with the musicians worship leader. The leaders of the church. The sound people. It has slowly different elements. It's hard to really say in each church where it is. It started. I think with this little worry that if we did particular things and one of them. Like I said is music that it was going to inspire people to come and sit in seats. You were a record producer and my understanding is anything above 80 dB is not healthy work and apply some clips today and folks are going to hear their way above 80 dB, and this is going on in most churches. Some folks are fine with it. Some are not so fine with it.

What's the worst that can happen.

Eric you got the physical problems it can take place. Because if you get if you're listening continually to things that are 80 and above your ears are going to suffer for it. As Brandon pointed out, there is the element that in some cases with some people.

There is an old state consciousness that takes place and were not saying the people go into a complete trance. What were saying that there are things that go on psychologically that maybe people don't realize are going on. Maybe they do. Either way, it's not good for people. Certainly not good for the congregation and were missing the point in worship services. We are to be if were playing singing etc. it should be about opening the hearts of people to prepare their hearts for the word of God we have music first in our services and biblical reasons for that.

We will go into a dark time to go into.

We want to open the hearts of people to receive God's word, not just get them into a frenzied state right in talking to you gentlemen and I found it intriguing that many, many churches today.

Brandon correct me if I'm wrong, but they're having 45, 50 minutes of music can 1520 minutes of the word of my right yet been a total reversal. If you look at the church in the past, centralized aspect of church with the teaching of the word the old sermon. The Old Testament of yesteryear. Germans went 50 to 60 minutes. Now it's completely flip-flop you got worship services lasting 45 minutes to an hour. Then at the crafter get that there get they serve a net of about 20 minutes so the total role reversal that now worship focus not word of God. And when you get that 20 minutes from Annette on a second or third grade level at the intentional many times he wanted a way for controversy. They will stay way from issues that would upset people so minimize the teaching aspect, but an overdue worship and then like Eric said back to the music. Putting people in an altered state of consciousness.

I'm not saying that every time someone does, but that it happened.

Studies have shown from the secular world that if you have a high high base or high volumes of music can you do it for a prolonged period of time. It does put people in to almost a trance state where there thinking that meant that in fact in some article they know it only takes 13 to 15 minutes for someone to go into the state. So it's a real phenomenon whether it happened on every church service that the problem were stored in the feet and in the evidence is all you have to do is go on YouTube and watch the sprinting church services were there jumping around going crazy, having ecstatic utterances going into transfer. Then there's a nest of the Holy Spirit just join these folks wonder what our conversation is about your listing to understanding times radio and Jim Markel and I have on the line from Bakersfield California pastor Brandon Holt House Rock Harbor Church. Learn more@rockharborchurch.net Rock Harbor Church.net kind of the familiar voice by now if Eric Barger, who has a background in music and record producing etc. I do want to play another clip. I think Eric you want to weigh in and I just want to say that I can just just here right now some people say but wait a second. If I do what you guys are talking about.

If I if I don't have this particular kind of music on people leave the church community microbial go down our offerings will be down all those things. Listen were there to please God and God is the one that we should depend on to fill the seats as he sees fit, not by just our ideas and by the ideas of the church growth movement that I think is done more to damage the church right than anything else and we got to depend on God. That's the point of I want to spend just a minute here on some of the words being sung because this in some cases I'm not sure it mean you can't tell if it's sung to God.

Words are being sung to somebody spouse or what I 19 is this with my intron. That's the reckless love, reckless love done by a believe hell song in my right is culture Jesus culture either will okay it's got 85 million lessons on YouTube. I don't think that God's love is reckless. I like to play apologist Mike Winger and I think he expounds on this brilliantly not like to come back and discuss it. His love is never ending scripture says love never fails.

God is love. God is eternal. His love is never ending. Literally. That's like a theological bedrock statement you could make the God's love never fails and his love is eternal so is love never ending. But then we get to the word reckless and by the way I do this with worship songs and you should too.

You should think it through should ponder through you should ask yourself you can see, Mr. got a minute I think this is just being smart is being good faithful Christians that we would be pondering our words we declare to God before declaring so reckless is God's love reckless. The simple answer is no and no sense of the word and I would unpack as that would in no sense of the word is God's love reckless tears. The definition of the word reckless of a person or their actions as an adjective. It means without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action example reckless driving you. I think we can still use that you didn't care about the consequences of his actions.

But that's not true. When Jesus went to the cross. All he cared about was the consequences of his actions.

He was redeeming the world that he cared about that a lot got so loved the world does not reckless that is targeted and intentional. That is all about the actions and the results of those actions, and refined across is not a reckless act at all in any sense of the word, the synonyms a reckless image look at his rash, careless and thoughtless heedless unheeding hasty. Just look at these things impulsive impetuous like these are not descriptors of God who before I was born to be singing over before I was even alive. God is loving me and I was planning out the path of salvation all the stuff was played out. That's not reckless. That's the opposite of reckless pastor Brandon Holt House. I think you would agree with me that he outlined that very effectively. And yet this song is one of the most popular contemporary songs ever.

Yet he did let me add a note that the problem we start having it songwriters don't have good theological background song from yesteryear were were actually penned by pastors or people who had went to seminary and would know better that God's love is not reckless but had the other meaning of agape, Leo other nuances that the Greek did so we are having people write theological songs that their theology is wrong there pouring different meanings into those song and that's exactly what Colt do you want speak into the along the same lines, I think we can say that most of the people who are gathered to play music in the church and who come from the congregation we don't know where the discernment level is. And everybody moves along hopefully and gets better as they go along with these kind of things sometimes the discernment about how we approach music and how we pick the songs that were gonna play and the ideas of what's biblical and what's not just because is being presented by a Christian are sold as a Christian piece of music that doesn't give it a free pass. By the way I want to correct us on something. I reckless love is by Cory Asberry. He is from Bethel music.

But it's not actually Jesus culture or Bethel music, which are two entities will nonetheless I think he is one of the most popular songs average being sung many many many churches is my only point. Brandon you said to me that today's music is more like ancient paganism than anything else and I know you don't meet all music across the board in the church, but too much of it.

It resembles ancient paganism. Well it does and what was the intent of ancient paganism and their music playlist tonight and with thought that there were worshiping. I can go back to Polynesian African tribes or even the American Indian tribes. What were they doing the refusing music to put people into an altered state of consciousness to unite with that God.

I can even go to Strabo and greasy the Greek philosopher, historian, he was writing how the Greeks and the barbarians were performing music to that whatever God there were worshiping to put them in an altered state of consciousness they were doing it through music. There's a parallel going on here when you start seeing how ancient pagan did it or even the barbarians or the Greeks that it and Daniel going to a modern-day worship and see what's happening.

There are uncanny parallel tween the two. If you just come away saying woe, you brought a pagan methodology into this and the famous that Israel made in the worship of Yahweh.

They would incorporate pagan practices in their worship. So is today's music just another kind of end time apostasy could be, will talk about that when we come back don't go away.

It's easy to get thousands of these just have good and so you go to worship services and we are in are trying to music the lies the action you are entertaining. The preacher comes out he is love story for heartrending stories and you leave contented you leave satisfied emotional time for numbers on for reaching people for Christ. But when you become the numbers Griffith that everything in the worship services aimed at that and see if you have numbers you that picture.

If you have big churches got happy so you got to have come got to get obtained and cause them to be emotionally satisfied once again were back to this man's centeredness that has destroyed worship of the 20th century if we've made a difference in your world. We love helpful feedback right just throw website REVIEWS.org that's all the reviews.org call us at time 763-559-4444 763-559-4444 more in the moment with Jan and our guests. We are entering our 20th year of broadcasting. Understanding the times radio started on a Twin Cities Christian station now air at 850 radio stations as well as many electronic outlets. Thank you for making that possible follow-through ministries is acquainted with us through our website. Follow-through reviews.org follow-through reviews or there you will find a wealth of information and tools to help you grow your Christian faith help the times 10 for the faith and the watchmen on the wall lying to nothing is falling apart. Everything is falling into place really a lot of what's missing is that on Sunday morning. There is this decided effort to have a concert instead of the worship service and if there's not instruction coming from the pastor.

The leaders in the church from the worship leader and it's reiterated over and over to the musicians so that that all the same page. Moving the same direction.

The full concert idea comes into play and we are definitely performing when we are on a stager platform on a Sunday morning church but who are we playing for and why are we playing this is not a concert. This is compare the heart of the people in the conversation the first of them who listened to pair them like we said earlier, for the word of God. If you miss a playground, you can always access the program electronically on our website.

One place.com or on our YouTube channel Jan Markel follow-through ministries, insert images and videos. There learn visually or download one place.com mobile have a program delivered to your devices. Let's return to Jan Markel, Pastor Brandon whole house. Just look at the video. Fill me up. God is about 17 minutes by Jesus culture.

I think I counted 144 times. She sings fill me up. God hundred and 44 times. Jesus said when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Did you hear that he the news vain repetitions key them like Hindus who repeat mantras over and over again. The same words over and over again just like the Beatle George Harrison introduced to us seeing Hare Krishna at the end of his song is God is saying that these chance there meant to drop this kundalini serpent spirit in you that just with Hindus. It gives them this electrical impulse in these jerking in the shaking's okay well come back. You may wonder what on earth are we talking about.

Let me reset the stage because I have been contacted by a number of people to address the issue of well the worship wars and that's what's going on in our churches today as people write and tell me they visited up to 20 churches just trying to find music that isn't going to be detrimental to their health or defined music whose words are not way off base, or defined music representing theology that is way off base. You got a lot of groups representing, for instance kingdom now theology. The church is going to make the world perfect. Well, that's nonsense. And yet lots of songs are singing about that were looking at a couple of organizations that are very successful, and they produce some music that's beautiful else on produces lots of music that sounds very nice others. Songs are off base. Same with Jesus culture far more than those two organizations, but those are prominent today. Again, this would be the worship wars going on in the church I'm talking to Pastor Brandon whole towns from Bakersfield, California. You can learn more@rockharborchurch.net.

You can also find his prophecy updates on YouTube just look up prophecy update rockhard check-in.

It's the one that's in Bakersfield, California Eric Barger. You can learn more@ericbarger.com contact the men through their websites.

I said I want to talk a little bit about is this just another form of end time apostasy. I personally think it is and we opened discussing a little bit about the church growth movement, which has led to some apostasy. We've talked a little bit about hiring secular musicians. Smaller churches cannot possibly compete with smoke and lights and all the things that the larger churches are bringing into attract heavily. A younger crowd, folks without good music to churches that don't have this kind of music while people are probably gonna leave it.

Eric talk to me just a little bit about this form of end time apostasy in the music. After all, your background before you came to the Lord was the music industry.

While at Sears week teaching in the church, or if there's incorrect. That is anti-biblical teaching in the church is going to filter into the music. I think that the standard about how strong our lyrics need to be help biblically need to be the attitude you know and I think really a lot of what's missing is that on Sunday morning. There is this decided effort to have a concert instead of in a worship service at and if there's not instruction coming from the pastor. The leaders in the church and the worship leader and it's reiterated over and over to the musicians so that they're all the same page. Moving the same direction, the whole concert idea comes into play and we are definitely performing when we are on a stager platform on a Sunday morning in the church but who are we playing for and why are we playing this is not a concert. This is due, to prepare the heart of the people in the congregation the hearts of them who listen prepare them like we said earlier, for the word of God and that to me is such a bottom-line, it can't be said to often. So the bad theology can come in and certainly it has come in when you see how many emerging church ideas we see just popping up where the lyrics just are a kind of you can almost get by. You know you try to do just as as little as you can. You don't want to be too spiritual. You don't want to turn people off. You certainly don't want to bring any conviction of their hearts by what you're saying all these things add up the problems to me. Pastor Brandon whole house you said to me, apostasy is having its way in the music industry wanted to elaborate on that not only happening in the pulpit. Great falling away for noting constantly church after church person after person is falling from the fate might've started out well but and they are not finishing well that same aspect before departing from the faith and accepting things that are not biblical it will happen in the music and we shouldn't be shocked by that.

So now it's affecting how old theology is being communicated through the music and again I come back to the church growth movement.

What Peter Drucker with kind of instructing a lot of the church growth movement guy to do through music and a lot of what he was telling them to do with due target marketing give them what the world wants to make sure your results oriented and you have profitability in what you're accomplishing.

Through music, I think that means Nichols a note. Does the music pack the church and if it does work and keep doing it. So then you get into the entertainment part and then again it came into pragmatism. What works do it so everyone starts following that. So basically, the ends justify the means and hands were bigger churches will be equated bigger churches but were evangelizing reaching a lot of people. And again it was a common theme mentality versus a: tell the great commission exact opposite of what Jesus told us to do so. The methodology is wrong just for the effective clemency or not to do that, but the going to help all that to say this when Nicholson knows this becomes the main focus of the church to do anything it takes to make that happen, and it means turning up the music class means plain secular music or getting into worship attainment of having an Elvis impersonator or reenacting Michael Jackson thriller if it puts people in the feet are going to do it and not part of the great apostasy. Apostasy is not only the departure from the faith.

It's a departure from correct behavior and incorrect methodology. That's right, you have to encompass all of that into overseeing it had methodology bad behavior. The performers lifestyle.

If the claim to be Christian should be content with what they're thinking about your listening to understanding the times radio Jan Markel here talking to Pastor Brandon whole towns and Eric Barger and Beth that's the worship wars music in the church listen someone who's perfected the marketing I want to play clip. It's less than a minute again Hill song is unparalleled when it comes to their marketing and let me just plan quick clip get your thoughts on it because Jesus is about to come. Once again the worship and Hill song is unparalleled evidence.

How about occult health physics may say a Christian out of a religious, the number of the stallions to go themselves Christian is fully foxed. There are almost a million fewer Christians than they would just five years ago. But there is one Christian denomination bucking that trade takes away nearly 40,000 tri-o'clock to 27 light-around us relatively shortly. The most iconic evangelical church and ascribe Brandon they're getting them into church.

You can't get them into church any other way. Hill song figured out a way to do it wrong. Yeah that methodology has to be right because here's the deal.

What they're getting it and experience even you see the thin Christian books. Now they're selling an experience with God versus understanding theology and how to apply and behave correctly. Now it I need to experience something with God and so they go to his worship services that deliver quaver and they come out saying I had an experience with God will nowhere in Scripture is that advocated that it's into the realm of subjectivity. There's no theology behind it and I think again it's a form of apostasy.

When people are just seeking an experienced Eric you thoughts.

I think disease be said at some point in missing this program for the next either one the leaders out there worship leaders pastor someday will stand before God and give an account right.

We did remember were going to be judged with the more strict for maybe a harder judgment. Somebody might say I would hate to think that because we used all these worldly ideas that really didn't depend on God involved Philip the seats and to bring people in and of course we think by just getting in there that's all that that counts. Sometimes that's where it stops in the thinking of those in church.

Now most of us hopefully your thinking. Also, we get them in there.

Maybe we can preach the gospel and they will be safe.

Yes, but the whole idea of how we got them there. That's depend on God. Let's do what he says do. And anytime we think that the ideas that every church is employing around us are the ones we out of employ. Why don't we go to the word of God and see what God's word says and then go to him and say father.

We depend on you completely lead us, guide us, direct us needs to be that kind of teaching in the worship team and with musicians and well with the whole church but you were talking about music today were talking about those who were presenting it before us and the problems that we see around us, so leaders keep that in mind someday will stand before God.

Let's make sure that were doing what God wants us to do and just not what's a great plan that somebody wrote in the book. Here's another email to Mark Road. The religion of mystery Babylon is being born right now as you have said many times Jan I never thought I'd see these things in my lifetime, but it is invading even churches that were once stalwart proponents of biblical truth. Hill song Jesus culture and many others have invaded my conservative evangelical church and they absolutely will no longer uttered the word rapture or reference current events and matter how pertinent the biblical prophecy it is breaking my heart. Another email from Susan at some point can you possibly address this question in the segment of your radio broadcast. How is it that there is some good worship music that comes from questionable doctrine of the very popular churches I've referenced the popular churches here many times. For instance, and she cites Brian and Jan Johnson.

They write some beautiful songs.

I'm still a relatively new believer. I've listen to the words carefully. I can find nothing wrong with them. Brandon what you say to that.

Will I would say that even a blind dog and find a bone. Every once in a while.

Okay, but at the end of the day your lifestyle and your theology half match and so if they're part of something that thought biblical if there's issues in their life that is not biblical like a practice certain things that are militated against by Scripture. Then we come back and say okay you might've wrote one song that's good. But what about your lifestyle. What about all the other song.

What about your theology. What about the church you go to get the whole package Christianity cable worldview and yeah you might be able to find things from Hill song or somebody's questionable group that okay that's okay but here's what the problem is for me for my pastoral standpoint. If I play that song in my worship service. I am giving tacit approval to that particular group to that particular church there part of Passaic Hill song or whatnot, and I can't do that because I can't make people stumble and make them think that okay telephone but because Goodpaster played that.

Here's what I want to do at the end of our segments here.

I'm going to take a break were not quite there yet them and then what I want to do in my third segment is I want to interview Carol. She actually went to her church leadership. She's a part of a church in Texas. She went to her church leadership and she said exactly what we've been talking about here for Lotta minutes and she pointed to the inconsistencies.

She pointed to the bed. Theology, she pointed to the repetitious music. She pointed to lots of things that were wrong and this was a very solid church denomination that I think many would trust and they blew her off.

I'm going to bring her on in my third segment, but Eric shall advise someone to handle this well.

I think she did the right thing Jan because the Scripture says were to go to someone if we have a problem with something that's what she did.

She went directly leadership. She got a unanswered response that certainly was mind blowing to her but at the same token she did the right thing and I think that's the most important thing is we keep things in the biblical perspective here's another area where I want to get to eventually and it we may have to tackle next week and I'm asking that you both would come back next week and part two of our series here on the worship wars going on in the church today and that is the whole issue of theology and I've already reference that I said a lot of these songs they're singing about kingdom now. Brandon if you could find the words you sent me the other day which is priceless, or because what folks are actually singing in church there singing is horrifically false theology.

How about the prosperity theology that really is ill song. Here's apologists. Justin peters Hill song churches, word of faith everything we've been talking about. That's what they teach a lot of their music. This is the kind of the musical alarm. I suppose some of their music is pretty good and a lot of churches sing their music and sometimes a mask.

Do you have a problem with singing Hill song music. Some of their songs are okay. Not all of them but some of them were okay.

The lyrics are doctrinally sound. However, because of the popularity of their music.

You see Hill song uses their music is a hook and they get their hooks into you through their music and then they pull you into their theology through their music.

I would never be comfortable in singing a song from Hill song in my church knowing where it comes from okay prosperity theology that's what's coming through some of these songs. Brandon, you agree absolutely and you can get peppered alter the artist, song, and when you look at their lyric they tell you what they believe.

For instance, there's a song out there by Jerry Joe.

She's new apostolic Reformation kingdom. Now word of faith in one of her songs. She notes that battle within the grave war on death was wage the power of hell forever broken left classic word of faith theology where Jesus had to go to hell to finish the work of atonement, but we know that's not theologically correctly finish the work of atonement on the cross. He did not have to go to hell and continue to battle Satan and the demons to secure our salvation at classic word of faith that you see it separate all through their gentlemen. Would you kindly come back next week so we could do part two of this series.

I'd really want to spend a little more time on the theology.

It's one thing to have the repetitious words, etc. it's another thing to have the volume that Lotta people are having to endure. We've already talked about earplugs are now being handed out before folks go into a sanctuary. It's another thing to have worship attainment which is not right.

It's benefits terrible all sorts of things are going on the theology that is being presented by some of these groups is just horrific and folks that is just more in time raging apostasy. But this time it's sneaking in, instead of from the pulpit it's from the worship team music team. Thus, we have the worship wars I want to deal is going to take my second break when I come back later. Talk to Carol may talk to her husband as well and they approach their church happened to be a Baptist Church and they presented all of these issues to them as church in Texas and the entire church leadership lower off. They were not interested I'll let her tell the story next week will do at least for part of the hour, will do. Part two of the worship wars here with Eric part your pastor Brandon hold house again. You can learn more about Pastor Holt house@rockhard.net rock Harbor.net and you can find his prophecy updates on YouTube that usually weekly and you know Eric is Eric part your.com's books, DVDs, etc. articles and Eric buyer.com. He has a background in the music industry in the record industry and therefore I want to get both of their perspectives as we consider music in the church. It's the great controversy going on as I speak taken a break coming right back. Are we singing for display at okay are we saying good theology with dead hearts without any joy.

What about the use of the mind, or emotions in worship. How should we think about singing Saul worship what should our position be on performance.

How do we evaluate the presence of sensuality worship in music and also in worship leadership and how we know when music is elevated to highlight in the worship of God. But in all of this, I pray you will remember the words of Psalm 149. Praise the Lord. Sing to the Lord a new song and his praise in the assembly of the saints. Let Israel rejoice in their maker. Thank you for remembering us both prayerfully and financially. All gifts to all through the mysteries architect are now in our 20th year broadcasting heard coast-to-coast when I tell a friend to an end to better understand the times 10 for the faith and become watchmen on the wall or with Jan and are just thank you for being a faithful radio supporter that every listener can support us financially, but all of you and pray for us, but our outreach and goal of spreading the inconvenient truth would continue to grow and develop through ministries and understanding the times Radiohead made a difference in your life. As to your daily prayer list by golf a blood ministries we experience daily attacks and setbacks as we try to bring listeners. The good news of salvation through Jesus Christ and his soon return to rescue his church. Let us hear from you through our website PO Box or telephone in the near future. Let's encourage one another as the hour translates I'm learning their nanny many people that are wanting to have the kind of pastor that I now they are hungry and that he is going to and on the were going to write anything you think you don't really know if they are not held her tail like it very important to have neither John Markel will be speaking at the proximity prophecy conference in Southern California Saturday, January 25. Sponsored by Calvary Chapel Tustin, California must register@cctustin.forcctustin.org. We are wrapping up our discussion of the great divider of the church today is our closing segment.

John Markel talks to some of church leadership on the topic no avail. Carol story next and welcome back folks remember this program is always posted to my website on Saturday morning olive tree views.org olive tree views.org why did you sign up if you'd like to have it downloaded to a device for the one place.com mobile app encourage you to sign up for my printing E newsletter. We talk about these topics in my various newsletters and if you do write to us and particularly if you send the gift would you always tell us what station or how you listen. What station or perhaps your podcast or helps us to know those things now want to move into my closing minutes here on understanding the times radio even talking about the worship wars for the hour and I am now talking to Carol Burnett. Can you give last names at this point in time the limit just sort of set the stage and Carol, thank you first of all for joining me appreciated the Holland I heard from you by way of email because you heard the programming I did of Dirk and Joan Miller.

He heard about the loss of their daughter Kaitlyn to the new apostolic Reformation and you are troubled that your church was playing new apostolic Reformation music they were playing Jesus culture you actually approached your church leadership. I think you also wrote some notes to area churches.

But let's start with your former church. What happened when you approach them how I can thank you for having me outline the year previous doll that my have been being on the worship team played at the data culture music that we started feeling troubled about it and especially when we heard your program about Caitlin. We got deeper and that's when we approached our church and were told that they didn't have any time to really check into other people's ministries. We were told basically what our own character flaws were and they never really even approached but the theological viewpoint lies in the paper that we were we out like they were dismissing the whole issue as nonissue. You tried only one time. Obviously you'd work the past.

In other words we had mentioned that previously in passing and were told that as long as the lyrics were okay and it's okay and we accepted it started that we never felt comfortable with that. Now my understanding is you wrote to other churches in your area and what was that we wrote to other churches.

Afterward that question was how do you handle Jesus culture music in your church and we received one response from one pastor and it said current church that were going to now, and he looked into it. He took you very seriously. He actually did some research is therein, he dad had found research on paint finish his research. I can't remember exactly what words were, but that he would not allow that and have church anymore.

You were concerned because the music number one was endorsing for theology and you are concerned that young people, particularly young people might be encouraged to visit the places that verse sees various organizations Jesus culture Hill song, etc. that the church was giving a stamp of approval young people could be led astray, my right and actually I believe that their logic would be something like our church play music help. What harm would ever be in going to that it I think I'm gonna play a little bit of now, this is your new church because you heard from this one particular pastor who said he was going to actually research this is so rare folks.

I think part of it is the busyness of pastors and perhaps they just really don't want to take the time to search these things out so you visited the church that actually responded and that happened to be First Baptist Church of Kingsville in Texas pastor David Hannah came I pronouncing that name right at all. Crack East visited the church and he actually preached a sermon on what were talking about. I'm sure that was rather shocking to you as let's display a real short clip of that particular message also found in the music that we listen to as well which the question was posed.

So, in light of that, making the decision them. Right now we as a church will no longer sing songs from duffel Buffalo collective Hill song telephoned United that's in your phone from Jesus culture were nothing phone from Jeremy Riddle, Cory Osborne and the list of 15 or 16 other different artists. So why are we taking this position why we no longer sing their music. Why were no longer going to be doing that because they aligned themselves with or they come from churches that are theologically problematic, if not outright heretical careful changes pulled the good that's in those thoughts that it's okay to process a single good stuff and avoid the other stuff.

No work you do realize or maybe you don't. Would you purchase an album from them, or when the church sings a song of theirs that we are financially supporting their ministries somewhat disturbed in order to be able to play music that is copyrighted.

We have to purchase on an annual basis something that's called the CCL on the license gives you permission to sing copyrighted music and think you turned in a list of songs that help me time to sing them yet.

The report, this kind of stuff and so what happens if these charts appraisal license fee. They collect all the data and information then goes artists toward those groups receive compensation based upon the number of times there song good song when a number of churches will be seeing one of their songs we become financially contributors of the church is that they come from those with the problem comes, will dry come back to him and so… Camp out here for moment will start with Brian Houston Hill song Hill song United phone churches. The Pentecostal mega-church with affiliated within the Australian Christian churches is the Australian branch of the Assemblies of God and part of their doctrinal belief is that of the prosperity gospel.

This quote comes directly from Hill songs website. We believe that God wants to heal and transform us so that we can live healthy and blessed lives in order to help others more effectively. This falls in line with the teaching that God always wills for you and that blessed equals healthy. That's the prosperity gospel add that God's desire is to enrich you financially and just make sure you don't think I'm grabbing at straws.

Just from one line from their website to reach you at a direct quote from their pastor publish the book of the book was published many years ago, but the name of the book to get our attention.

You need more money. Book it is but you need more money on page number eight Brian Houston says we have to become comfortable with wealth and break the bondage of guilt and condemnation of impoverished thinking.

Poverty is definitely not God's will for his people. In fact his promises talk of blessing and prosperity that was pastor David Hannah came from First Baptist Church in Kingsville in Texas who took a stand Carol what was the result of him taking that stand with that message. I started by now apparent benefit.

Family had left the church that we had several more times for the purpose of his message near here because they've been searching for a place for monitoring in the sand on the truth. Have a true shepherd you are talking to people on Facebook. Actually, I think you're talking heavily about some of the perils of the things were talking about for this whole hour and near talking about some issues with the new apostolic Reformation churches.

What are you learning there. I am learning their nanny many people that are wanting to have the kind of pastor that I now have.

They are hungry for somebody going to stand on the word payoff again. I mentioned a true shepherd. If somebody is going to protect her full hot rate when somebody is playing music that you don't really know if it's better not. You need somebody in that kind of position that's gonna filter and I feel like it's very important to have leader that will filter that the group that is on Facebook there called an AR heresy watch a have an approval where you can sign on, but they asked questions and is about 600 members. So have you personally when you left that one particular church or when you join this newer church. If you had some pushback. We have had quite a bad they want very much to be able to listen to what they want to listen to and that's fine. I don't have any objection to let people listen to in their home or in the cars but when it comes to music that offered as holy worship to a holy God in a church setting.

Acne can the completely different conversation and then when the false theology is being promoted at the same time or the repetitious words or the heavy beat them and that isn't always the case, but frequently it is simply talk this hour that some of the volume of the music, etc. right my professional advance patient five Atlanta, take no part in the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expect them Carol.

I want to thank you for taking us and want to thank your pastor to pastor David Henke and that's First Baptist Church Kingsville in Texas who stood for truth, at least as it concerns the issue that we've been talking, my folks were to continue this next week for at least a segment of my next weeks program only go out saying this that the worship wars are real. There are 900 references to music in the Bible God loves it and knows that ministers to people, can we get good music back in the church since music has driven away many people from church, the joyful noise unto the Lord has become just that noise. Let me go out taking this that the music you know it shouldn't be about us. It should be about worshiping God. It shouldn't be about growing a church but about honoring God and thanking him for his goodness will pick up on this next week sure to come back I'll have my same guess on Eric March or pastor Brandon whole house. What you join me next week. Thanks for listening. Talking again over the years we have heard thousands expressing various kinds of troubling church pastors trying to hold the true light us through the website.

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