The Narrow Path 6/2

Good afternoon and welcome to the narrow path radio broadcast lighting to see if Dragon were live for an hour each week. The afternoon with an open phone line so you can call him if you wish to discuss questions that you have about the Bible about the Christian faith any of the contents of the Bible. We can discuss any aspect of the Christian faith. We can discuss that doesn't mean I know all the answers about everything, but we can discuss it and also if you see things differently than the host.

Well, you can call to discuss our to the number to call is 844-484-5737 that's 844-484-5737 and I am I guess I am not mimicking answers right now. Just go to go ahead and take some calls Linda from Akron Ohio is our first caller today Linda, welcome to the neuropathic for going sugar on all I would question why, I wondered, but maintain that the Bible I think I was wondering if at wide node. I have mine in a poem writing about how I bet with that. I think and you said that that would and I let I just got an opinion on and now I do hope I can stop and my death at 90 interior.

I'm looking in the back and I have a question about that related to what you believe. Thinking that what that little downtown thinking about it because there have been looking for information purposes. I don't believe what they would be believe but really a lot about the key major difference. I think they believe. Not sure something called dominion is an kingdom now 500 okay I would actually like it if any listeners have some good salient quotes from Bill Johnson or or from some of the other leaders there about the kingdom of God. I was actually looking some up from them on the weekend and the I was able to draw some of them from video clips, but I from written things to consider and give much what it looks like to me about their view is they see that the abolition of sickness is certainly one aspect of the kingdom of God and because they say well you're supposed to pray your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and Bill Johnson said that well is no cancer in heaven, so the schnapps was a cancer on earth also so they they have a very, overly realized eschatology date. They seem to think that the time is past for there to be sickness and for there to be. Who knows what else can I mean I don't know what else they think is they apparently have a utopian kind of idea that is the kingdom of God. The influence of the kingdom of God spreads will have a perfect world and and and even sickness won't be in it now. I would just say bite to counterbalance that there are things in heaven that are not going to be true that are true in heaven that are not returned earth until Jesus comes back now to drain your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and if we mean in every respect that heaven is exactly like earth, then that's not can happen until Jesus comes back that we consult would be praying for that to happen, but I suspect that they think that in before Jesus comes back were supposed be eliminating sickness and all but the Bible says there are certain things are part of this world order because this world order is different than the world order after Jesus comes back when Jesus comes back to reign with him and I think they think were reigning with him now, but the truth is that were in our testing and training phase here in this life. That's what suffering is related to sickness and other dangers, and other trials are they or their functional in this present age as God is testing our faith, and training us to be spiritually minded these things often are the tools.

Certainly they don't seem to understand correctly, the theology of suffering in the book of Job, or in the book of first Peter or the book of second Corinthians.

Some of these books are very very focused on the value of human suffering in this present age but of course it only has value in this age because this is an age of testing and of training and after he been tested and trained well then Jesus takes us into you know a more perfect era were such things one exists. There won't be you know there will be even even day and night or an AC. I'm sure were not supposed to pray for the Reno day or night and OC on earth right now there will be predatory animals.

I don't know for thinking of her sister, pray the predatory animals will start eating grass or what denomination they're just not realistic in suggesting that all the conditions of the ultimates consummation of all things are supposed be realized right now because again there is a change when Jesus comes back and in many respects, so I don't know all that they believe it is. I said any listener out there who has salient quotes from Bill Johnson or other leaders in their movement vessel or that the NAR is it's called the new apostolic Reformation about the kingdom of God. I would love it if you'd email them to me because I'm trying to try to get a full picture of what it is that death teaches on that will when I first started hearing a little bit from and more like it infiltrates you know, like all that is true, that is true, but that's not ending that's that's really not that's not that's only speaking differently but not acting differently than the church always really very prickly that the whole society of Western civilization has changed because Christians have infiltrated but talk about it they can talk about it that we didn't see it, is to infiltrate and change, but that's what happened. I mean it's like leaven the lump of dough but Jesus that is like leaven hidden and 11 does not really very visible. It's something that's happening imperceptibly, I think they want to see it happen very deliberately and very perceptive very visibly and I don't know to what degree that may be what God will want to happen in the end of times. I don't know but I don't have any certainty that we are in the end times and and I don't think that the focus on infiltration giving son and throat. I don't think that focuses the focus of Jesus preaching or of the apostles preaching the Bible. I'm all for revival, I'm offering bodily revival should result in well.

I frankly I don't know all the things are going on at Bethel. I haven't been there when I hear coming out of the news from Bethel is the strange things they do that are unscriptural but to what degree. There are some of the debt, the real evidences of revival.

Also, I don't know.

I do know there's lots of people being saved, which is what usually happens in revivals. I don't know there's a lot of people because living holier lives which approved revival would bring about. There may be those not the things I hear about, but you learn all I need more out there right I think you're called to talk to Linda okay Mark from Clifton Park, New York is our next: welcome to the neural pathways for calling the gun.

The recent rioting and looting from a Christian perspective believe that say they are justified or whether or not Christian to sort of forgivable for their action and basically what's your take on it.

Well, nobody is forgivable in the senses to be excused for unjust actions. I mean it. If I take a break and transfers of the wind of the store because I'm angry then I am simply not in control my anger. I mean there are times that you should be angry at things that are genuinely abominations to God, but just control yourself and everybody except immature people does control himself and the babies don't control themselves little children if they're not well disciplined. Don't control themselves and big people who've never been well-trained, don't control themselves, but the just infantile is an infantile feature of a human being who can't control his or her emotions and unfortunately when we make excuses for people who don't control their emotions were not helping them out were simply enabling them just like a parent who doesn't discipline a child is enabling them to ruin their own lives and the lives of other people. So I mean when when our politicians are the police are or are preachers even say what we have to understand these people are really upset.

While we don't.

There's no difficulty understanding that these people are upset.

The real question is why can't they behave like civilized human beings. The answer, of course, has a lot to do with her upbringing has a lot to do with the training they received in school and the political messages they received in the last 30 or 40 years, probably that has basically excused people for not controlling themselves, especially if they're of a particular minority group Outlook is a Christian Sabbath is having well Christianity is all about justice. Jesus is the promoter of justice according to the Scriptures.

He and Psalm 42 hits that he will establish justice in the nations, and he mentioned several times how, establish justice, and the nations in the first four verses of Psalm of Isaiah 42, which is quoted in the New Testament is about Jesus mission are Christian should always be for justice.

The problem is the devil, I would say it's the devil. Although it's of course certain political groups has confused the notion of justice and replaced it with something called social justice. Now people on the left and people who don't think very clearly in general believe in something called social justice which means identity justice identity group justice. For example, I heard on the radio today that someone had had tweeted a message that there is several magnificent old plantations in the South that are now museums or something, and this process is, and we should go burn down and everything your ancestors built them and then benefit from them there yours to burn down now there's that kind of thinking is rampant here. First of all, most the people reading that sweet did not have any ancestors who built those plantations. In fact, most black people today. I don't have any black ancestors who built those plantations, and even if they did what your ancestors did. Three. Four generations ago, doesn't have anything to do with your entitlements or or even your guilt if if there's a white man whose ancestors have slaves then there are the great-great-grandchildren that white men are not guilty of what he did something justice basically means that you uphold the rights of every individual and that you do not approve of anyone being punished.

Who is innocent, but you see social justice suggests well whole categories of people have been wronged.

The whole you know, African-American race was wrong during the time of slavery and in the white people were the ones who did it so any damage done in retribution against white people is justified because the white race is guilty and the black race was the victim. That's identity politics. If you have black skin, then you're an aggrieved victim. If you have white skin, then your then your guilt right white privilege right now that has nothing to do with real justice because frankly, I didn't ever have slave. My ancestors never have slaves and most black people I know your ancestors didn't know my ancestors so my assistant drilling against. In fact, my ancestors more likely were on the side of the union that was trying to end slavery.

You know they have to realize that you know if we say will white people are the ones who kept slaves is all white people are also want to end slavery. When the slaves had no way to do it themselves. It's it's the flight people who voted to give black people vote. There's also been prejudice against the Irish. I'm about 50% Irish, and when the Irish first came to this country. Large numbers. They were badly persecuted. So my supposed to go and find whoever isn't Irish in on the eastern seaboard and say you owe me something. Of course not that's that's absurd to say that a whole group of people is aggrieved because of their skin color, or some other demographic feature and and owes it to people of another demographic feature to punish them for it is what they call social justice versus institutional injustice. It just means people who are evil people in angry are giving them some excuse to hurt people who have done nothing to them. In most cases, I mean think about this.

George Freud, George Floyd was apparently murdered by a white cop and within days he was arrested and charged with murder and is going to trial very soon now.

In other words, a man murders another man. He's arrested for murder, he'll go to trial if he gets if he is convicted, he'll probably have suffer a penalty for murder. However, all over the country. There are people carrying signs justice for for George. You know well what what more can be done justice for George. George's dad and his murderer has been accused of murder is has been arrested. I mean, isn't that pretty much the same thing that we would want to happen if anyone was killed by anyone else. I mean, this is not a case of whites afflicting Blacks. This is a case of a wicked apparently if we once affects my week will probably be shown a very wicked white man did something very bad to a relatively innocent black man and and certainly those things happen and and justice would mean that that white man who did it would be punished because me that all the police would be punished because once a please don't do that. It does mean all white people are nonfunctioning. This is its absurd when you try to have identity politics, which is because you belong to this ethnic group you are justified in doing harm to other people who've done you no harm. It's crazy and and yet of course it's only Christianity cannot stand for.

That cannot stand for the concept of social justice. Justice is social by nature. It means that I I live in a society and I do no wrong to anybody. I will not violate his right to his property to his life to his marriage to his reputation. I'll do no wrong to my neighbor. That's what love is. Paul said love does no harm to a neighbor.

Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law so that's a social behavior on my part. If it's treating my neighbor justly, but when you add the word social tumor justice. You make it injustice. You're just using a word that gives it some kind of seemingly respectability but what you given respectability to his atrocity and saw me. This is very typical of what what the left as is done for the last couple generations in this country if they change the meaning of words and then, of course, Christians who don't have a brain in their head. In some cases even some pastors apparently don't have a brain in their head. They just go along with. They just say yeah I guess we can't really be angry that these people are breaking windows out of you know the stores of Asian people who never had a slaves a black slave or even out of the out of the stores of black people. There's a lot of black people whose business are being destroyed and burned down by these by this rate, there's nothing about this, that's okay. So you cannot cannot support any part of it.

All right appreciate your call but okay. Talk next to John from Oregon city John, welcome to the neuropathic for calling Michael had me yeah go ahead little.

My question is, when, how did the Christian church converts from premillennialism to all known well.

I think there were millennialist from the beginning, but there were also premillennialists there's. There were always those who took Revelation 20 literally about a literal thousand years, and there were always those who didn't take it literally and that the ones who didn't would be usually millennial in the ones who did to be pre-millennial and these ideas apparently were present in the earliest centuries the church there were quite a few church fathers who are premillennial like copyists and Irenaeus and Tertullian and O Justin Martyr.

They were clearly premillennial, though Justin Martyr said that not everyone was.

He said there were many godly Christians who are adhered to the most holy faith, who didn't agree with his premillennialism.

So there were others to we don't know who they were. Because relatively few people from the second third century ever wrote wrote on the subject that we have record of both being in existence in the early church now it it became all millennial became the primary view of the church. Initially, probably through origins influence origin was about 150 years before Augustine and was millennialist but then Augustine adopted a millennialism and he's the one whose influence made it the official view of the Catholic Church and and so the Catholic Church adopted it. Of course in Europe there was only the Catholic Church in Western Europe for a long time and so it was the millennialism is the standard view of the church in that area that is Western Europe. The Reformation occurred in Western Europe and and the reformers came out of the Catholic background so they also were all millennial so the church was pretty much all millennial from the time of Augustine's Hill actually about the 19th century and premillennialism reappeared in the 19th century, in the form of dispensationalism. So that's kind of the history of shift just millennialism of pattern. Well when I went online I got a little bit information on the subject that all millennialism started about the time that the church was supported by the state role with Constantine, and about that time, and Augustine yellow didn't start at that time, but it did it did become very dominant may be maybe about 75 years after that, I mean it could. The first generation. The first and second generation of Christians living under Constantine worn were not necessarily all millennial that Augustine around your 400 which is like a 775 years or 80 years after Constantine's conversion, he he became. He became very influential but he wasn't the first to teach enemies that the pattern on the about the time the church was supported by the state. We just said that I just wasn't true. And no, I didn't come in at that time it came in centuries earlier will will likely that Jesus said that print to the Gentiles will exercise authority over that with you, it shall not be so and so I saw the church being kind of bottom-up leadership where the top down yeah yeah the church became that way you're quite right that that has nothing at all millennialism all millennialism is not related to how church governance takes place will will what you said that that 2025 through 28 doesn't doesn't equal what is going to happen. In Revelation 20 verse six because there that they will rule with a lot of eye witness will rule with the Messiah with Christ with a rod of iron and that's not bottom-up that don't sound like top down well in Revelation 20 when he sees the Saints ruling with Christ on throne species, there's their souls. He doesn't see their bodies there there in heaven and it's it's after there.they died, and before the resurrected. That's the only time deliver be disembodied related only time you will be a soul without a body will be after you die and before the body is resurrected, so those who are reigning with Christ in Revelation 20 are seen their souls were written with Christ. And so it's not a political kind of a rain it's more of a spiritual reign. Okay, I appreciate your call have it all.

Millennialism does not does not itself support top-down leadership structures in the church. All right, although it doesn't speak to the question.

Other passages do. Dominic from Massachusetts. Welcome to the narrative for calling and by the way man over the break. Go ahead you like your teachings on my phone many times but my question raised Catholic and about seven years ago I started going with non-domination will church believed in God and Jesus talked about being born again at the time. I could like what you been born again. I believe that you like, I didn't get like you know, why do I have to be born again to believe in Jesus and not understanding you know the whole concept, so I've been trying to you know like they read the Bible and get a lot of this totally different like the Protestant or Catholic and my brother all are actually Pentecostal. Now I believe in the Trinity.

They believe in God is not being one okay.

We haven't got your questions I get called were going through a break here after the breakup puts it back on and try to think about what your question is going to be so that we can get right that listening to the narrow path radio broadcast for another half hour ahead so don't go away.

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I'll be back in 30 seconds. The book of Hebrews tells that do not forget to do good and to share with others and share the narrow down with friends when the show is over today and one in the narrow path.com they can learn and enjoy your teachings blog articles verse diverse teachings and archives of all the narrow path radio show and be sure to tell them to tune into the show here on the radio chairlift noted the narrow and do good luck back to the narrow path radio broadcast Steve Dragon were live for another half-hour still taking your calls and questions about the Bible of the Christian faith. You know, there are meetings coming up small meetings that we have from time to time, and that were not posting them, but if you're curious about meetings of ketamine meetings. You may there's an email address you can write to them to inquire and see if there's a meetings in your area and that email addresses volunteer@thenarrowpath.com so it's volunteer@thenarrow.com) say are there any meetings coming up in my area for Steve's hundred speaking and let it let the person know of course where you are and will get some information back to you. All right we were talking before break to Dominic from Massachusetts and I don't like to give the number out again the number is 844-484-5737. We do have a couple lines open. If you try to get through 844-484-5737 and Dominica we didn't ask to get to your class as we were interrupted. So go ahead so you know I'm trying to find my relationship to God and work so confused like your call before talking about you live close to posterior but pretrip. What should I quantitate, I would just like you know I I just want to have a really good would you write God in you don't have to worry about yeah you not to worry about eschatology at all really close to Jesus which is most important thing of course. Just comment that there are many controversies within the church, which Christians are interested in, but are not very essential to settle. You'll sometimes hear people in this program. Discussing the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. Or, as you pointed out all millennialism or premillennialism or pretrip rapture are predators of these are different words that talk about all the different sides of the aisle in various controversies that are not very important.

I mean, they have their own level of importance that they they have some value, but none of these subjects have any bearing on the way you live for Jesus. In fact, find people who live very well for Jesus who are Calvinists and and people who live very well for Jesus were Arminians so obviously the controversy over on Arminianism and Calvinism can't be an essential matter.

If you can be on either side of it still live for Jesus is the same. Likewise with eschatology eschatology can't be an essential issue. If you can still live for Jesus one holding anyone of the views. Now that doesn't mean that these other views have have no value to know because the Bible does talk about more things than are what we call the essentials you need to make sure you got the essentials under control and you've got in your living for Jesus and after that there are dirty things in the Bible. You're to be interested in understanding somewhat better. They won't determine whether you go to heaven or hell they want determine whether your good Christian that they will be something that will if you understand them than certain passages that are otherwise obscure or perplexing will be more transparent and you can see them and understand them better so that's that's why Christians who've been Christians for a while sometimes have the luxury of discussing these other paradigms that have to do with things that are not the essentials that are if you understand and then there's Scripture better perfect understanding of Scripture is not necessary for salvation. Although a person who loves the Lord will probably want to know Scripture as best they can.

So you know eventually you may be interested in sorting out some of these controversies and seeing what side you're on. But at this point since your newer believer and you just try to get close to Jesus. I'd say just concentrate on obeyed obedience to Christ is surrendering to Christ.

Spending time in prayer and in communication with him reading the Bible, especially Jesus said to to get guidance for your life and to love everybody. So that's what that's what the Jesus is going to unify Jesus saying what Jesus is saying is you better love everybody. And so learning to love everybody. Learning to love God and love Jesus and to trust him in a childlike way, these are all the important things and some of the other things that you hear mention on this program. When people bring up certain theological labels or something you might you might find it frustrating if you don't understand what they are but just realize that you not happy. Frustrating.

Just realize there are subjects that can be delved into almost almost forever. In addition to the things that really make you a good Christian.

There are things that will make you I think have more of a correct understanding of certain things about God and about the Bible so forth. So I'd say do what you're doing and focus on the basics at my website. Of course I have lectures on virtually everything you can imagine 1500 lectures MP3 files and they're all free, but I'd suggest that you might want to go to the website and maybe listen to the series called genuinely following Jesus genuinely following Jesus. And that will be something that'll kinda focus on what's most important. Also also a series of lectures called the kingdom of God, which is there. I think those be helpful to you and that would be the core of what you would need to know in order to be a follower of Christ and other things other things can wait until you if not more time or more Moore foundation built like so it really didn't matter like I believe in the Trinity.

However, I sometimes go to my church because the in the past like I love that after that, it really matter I'm going to one church or another well now God is not going to judge you by what church you go to because you judge people by what they do exegesis and reverence we judge by their works by their deeds. The way you live. If you live for Christ. It will go well for you in the judgment. If you live sinfully.

It will not what church you attend doesn't have any immediate effect on how you will be judged by God. In the end, but of course there are churches which will lead people astray on some subjects and their churches that will that will stand hard by some five Bible more down the United Pentecostals who don't believe in the Trinity. I think you're mistaken.

I do believe in the Trinity and so do most Christians, but on the other hand, they do affirm that Jesus is God, and they do is they do affirm that the Holy Spirit is God and the father is God, which is exactly what a Trinitarian believes they also believe that that the father-son Holy Spirit are one which is also trade treacherously, but the difference between Trinitarian and them would be that they they that's that God is not three. At the same time. They believe that God was the father in the Old Testament is Jesus in his incarnation is the Holy Spirit now and so they don't see three individual aspects of God coexisting eternally together.

That's a different way of looking at it, but the early church didn't have all sorted out. So being a Christian doesn't mean you fully understand the Trinity.

It means that you honor Christ and follow him, but I don't I don't think the United Pentecostal is going to be was the most doctrinally soundtracks you can find that does mean you can't go there got mad at you if you go there anything like that. They are there people you need to love also love Albritton okay okay Dominic thank you for calling our next caller is Katie from Seattle. Thanks for waiting. Katie, welcome to the narrow path back story Christian Christian your kid on I grew up in a church where not quite."

Harry and I got married. We follow a friend. God by the grace of God. He brought it back to a different church and the Holy Spirit was really convicting LA was a Christian I child I was never never baptized, and the Holy Spirit really prompted you know my question and can you describe the important than my other church in necessary and I'll take my my, all right, all right. Sure will the importance of baptism in the early church was that when you were baptized. You declared your loyalty to Christ in your inclusion in his kingdom. That is, he's your king is your Lord and your embracing that publicly and a person who never did so was not considered to be fully converted in the Bible because when a person made the decision to become a follower of Christ, they were baptized immediately. The same day in order to declare this conviction and this this loyalty to Christ being baptized is a symbol of loyalty when Israel passed through the waters of the Red Sea.

Paul said they were baptized into Moses meeting. They were now declare their loyalty to Moses not to Pharaoh who may observe for hundreds of years before that. Paul rebuked the Corinthians who were saying that they were his followers. He said you were baptized in the name of Paul and others if you had been baptizing up all that I conceived have that attitude but you weren't. You were baptized into Christ himself or your his followers, not mine.

So baptism was a means of declaring yourself to be the followers of the person into whom you were baptized were baptized into Christ. Now what if a person repents genuinely and believes in Christ and seeks to follow Christ, but has never heard that baptism is important. For example, you apparently in the church a reason were never even told the baptism was normative or important. While I don't think that you don't think you're going to hell if you die that condition because you've done all that you know to do and somebody has dropped the ball and didn't tell you what they should've told somebody else is responsible for that because you don't know any better, but once you know that I think you should do it nearest. Many people have compared baptism to the wedding ring given at the wedding ceremony. It's marriage is not made by a ring marriage is made by a covenant by a commitment by the house that are sincerely taken and owned and run when a couple is made. Those vows seriously and and sincerely that is what constitutes a marriage that normally they get a wedding ring and that wedding ring is the advertisement to the world that they are married. Now they could still be married, even if the ring you know if if the little girl came the ring dropped down the grip the drapes and women down in sewer and and you have the wedding that you have the ring there. You still married, but really, I mean in our society since a ring is the emblem of your owning your marriage status.

A person not to wear a ring that married.

Otherwise there communicating something to the world that isn't true or communicated or not.

So that's how baptism is, I believe, I think that it was understood that when you make a commitment to Christ. When you enter into a covenant relationship with him.

You you'd you make it obvious by publicly being baptized. Now if you don't get baptized. You still made the commitment, but a failure to be baptized could only be explained in the case of a true convert by either them not being told to not even knowing about baptism being part of the whole to or they may know it but they may be unable to be baptized like the thief on the cross.

You know he got saved. He wasn't able to be baptized. If his salvation was genuine and Jesus said it was well then, if the man had not been on the cross, he would've been baptized. He couldn't so there's not any magic in the water is my magic in the empty and in baptism but it's it's it's a very important part of the whole transition from the kingdom of darkness in the kingdom of God and of the early church just assumed if you not baptize you, not yet a Christian because becoming a Christian. I think to us were so individualistic we think becoming a Christian things. I now have a personal relation with God, which gives me personal salvation, and I got it on my life as an individual is a follower of Christ and that's all that matters, but biblically when you become a believer, you become part of the body, you become part of the community. You're not just getting a personal ticket to heaven, you are now part of a movement that Jesus started to be a growing and impactful movement in the world called the kingdom of God and that community of believers is what you now belong to, instead of the community of the world outside and you enter that through baptism so that that's again how people declare themselves to be members of the body of Christ. Now you said why would some churches not emphasize or not think it's an important.

This is a confusion on the part of some churches who have become very concerned that they do not introduce any concept of salvation by works. You see, during the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church required a lot of specific works. In addition to your faith as means of salvation. Luther and the Reformation emphasize no were saved by faith alone, not by works. Now some of the reformers had enough balance to say were not saved by works, but we are supposed to perform good works because we are sick, that is of course true in the biblical teaching, but some people feel that if you say what you have to do something besides just believe that you've suddenly reverted back to a pre-Reformation compromises were you saying about your justified by your works because your senior fee baptized but that's you. Baptism is not at work so the argument fails, but I think again we have a lot of Christians who just don't think very well. They don't have a brain that they use in any imaginative way. They just read the Scripture and think for themselves.

They just that they like like worldly people just go by buzzwords and you know sayings that their group says talking points of their denomination so forth. And because they don't think very clearly they don't even understand what the role of baptism is an and they almost think to push for baptism is to push for works. It should be obvious, however, that a person being baptized is not doing work, since he's not doing it. Somebody else baptizes you you don't baptize yourself.

You just allow yourself be immersed in water by somebody else. Are you not doing work, and therefore to suggest that you need to go through that procedure is no more being saved by works, then then if you're saved just by faith without baptism. Baptism as part of the whole of the whole complex of things that happened at the moment that an early believer became a believer they would repent of their sins.

They believe in Christ, they get baptized and received the Holy Spirit, all these things happened in rapid succession and and none of them could imagine why anyone would be with have part of that not the whole package. Why wouldn't you do the whole thing. Paul was surprised when he met some people who were not fully converted but they thought of themselves as believers, I guess anything other that they have received the Holy Spirit when obviously they were believers them and they had to tell them that they weren't baptize properly either cell and Paul was astonished. She said having you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed they had never heard about the Holy Spirit. So again it wasn't entirely their fault, but it was an astonishing thing and Paul immediately baptize them in water and laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit because although some people may be poorly evangelized by vegans who don't know what you know how to eventually somebody don't know how to tell people what God wants him to do.

They may be saved without having all of that you know all those things happen to them, but this is a learned of it. They should, of course, address the deficiency and some churches are guilty of creating the deficiency.

Rodney from Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for waiting.

Welcome to the narrow path Rodney McCall, the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 yeah and well my question is why do so many people take that was being a like a fictitious parable and like everything and I really is fictitious and really Be seeing those may be doctrine or something like that because when I read that story.

The fact to me that Jesus uses real names of real people know Lazarus and Abraham.

The fact that he uses real people's names to me validates the fact that Jesus is in fact talking about something that had happened and it is truly vapid to happen in the past and it's like discounting some of the major doctrines of Greg Gallo known somebody does die in the not right with God. They will eventually will go to howl in have to stay suffering until the judgment day. A lot of people consider that to be such a strict fictitious story when Jesus actually uses real names and real people. Well I think it's because Jesus uses real names of real people that that's the primary argument for not being a parable. I know that when I was arguing that it was not a parable, but was a true story I got was the main argument as well. He mentions this guy by name and Jesus doesn't do that in his parables usually, but sometimes the Jews did and and I think one of the things that has led many to decide that this is not a true story but as a parable is that now we have found in the Jewish writings that that is the Talmud a number of parables of the same kind that have very similar scenarios and if there's quite a lot of them actually in many scholars believe that Jesus was taking a story, a parable that the rabbis already were telling but he's putting his own spin on it to make his own point so that it some modification of parable of the of the rabbis and the rabbis parables were not about real people so they might have. They would have the names of Abraham and people like that in so Jesus was a Jew and he is speaking to Jews and therefore something for him in his preaching.

He adopted some of the parabolic teaching of the rabbis and put his own thoughts into it. We know Jesus did that kind of thing. For example, the rabbis believed that there was a prince of the demons name be eligible or Beelzebub bills a ball is the Old Testament form of the name and the rabbis had decided that that Beelzebub was the prince of the demons from infecting the Old Testament is just one of the pagan gods but they said that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub and she said well if I am testing out demons by Beelzebub, then Satan is fighting against himself here how he took their own idea that the prince of demons is named Beelzebub just said well on your own terms. This is called ad hominem argument on your own terms.

If there is in fact the prince of demons named Beelzebub, as you say. Well then, if I were casting out demons through him, then Satan is against himself and Jesus, I think, was not affirming that the rabbis had correctly come up with this tradition that the demons have a ruler named Beelzebub he simply taking them on their own terms, and likewise the idea that shale or Hades was a place with two compartments, one for the righteous one for the unrighteous, but they could see each other between them is an idea that didn't come from the Old Testament it came from pre-Christian before Christ writings of the Jews, like the book of Enoch. The idea think is introduced in the book of Enoch which brings it into Judaism out of places like the Egyptian book of the dead, and some of the other Greek ideas about hell, certainly we, the Greeks believed that Hades was divided into two compartments asserted the Egyptians and Jews had borrowed some of that night came into Judaism through the noncanonical book of Enoch and that was very popular in Jesus day it had been in a couple centuries before time of Christ, and this idea of hell have these two compartments coming from the book of Enoch was adopted by rabbis in many of their stories and I think that Jesus may have been simply adopting that as such, I thinks why some people say it's not a true story is because it talked about a man being tormented in flames and wishing to have water put on his tongue to soothe him and yet when a man dies and goes to Hades. His body is in their it's his soul. His bodies in the ground detaining into test. It'll never tongue. As far as we know, and we'll or that water would relieve him. I think a lot of the things sound sound like the kind of fiction that the rabbis told and that Jesus may be adopting a rabbinic story that was familiar to his listeners and make a different point from I'd like, and it sometimes to a preacher giving a sermon insane. So, suppose you die and when Saint Peter meet you at the pearly gates. He says why should I let you into heaven. Well, people of talked about Saint Peter.

The pearly gates for a very long time but there's no mention of the Bible of him being there and I think that it's a it's we call it religious floor with most of us of these Protestants don't believe that anyone could meet Peter at the pearly gates when they die, but that's such common lore that people can pick it up and use it for an illustration and Jesus may have been taking common lore about Hades and using it as a context for an illustration sermon out Jesus teaching this is not primarily teaching about this.

The stated people after death. He saying, as is the last line of the parable makes clear his lesson of the parable is that those who don't receive law. The law of Moses will not receive a man who rises from the dead, either. In other words, if they're already rejecting the revelation God gave their ancestors for Moses. They will be not necessarily very receptive to even a man who rises from the dead, which I think is a cryptic reference to Jesus when he rises from the dead, those who are already rejecting Moses would also reject him. I think that's the meaning of the prevalence and it's not really even about the afterlife.

It's just that this afterlife scenario becomes the context for the conversation where that point is made. That's that's some of the reasons I think that people have suggested it may not be an actual story, but it may be there certainly a lot of Christians who believe it is a true story.

And if they want to believe that I can't know and can submit that but some have taken the opinion of because of considerations like these that maybe Jesus isn't telling an actual case. Some people I used it as a mostly fictitious to take away from the fact that so not how little he evidently all in my people really don't die go and suffer people that had guided down the doctor and how I don't know how they could successfully do that because the doctors hell is not based on that passage doctors hell is based much more on some of the statements Jesus made elsewhere and on the book of Revelation. So yeah I don't think the doctrine of hell rests on the story of Lazarus and the rich man which doesn't even talk about the final judgment at all talked about where sinners are after they die for the judgment day. Some I don't think that relevant, but they might do it for that reason given listening to the narrow path biting Steve Greg we are listener supported you like to help us go to our website and the narrow path.com you can see how to donate there though.

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