The Narrow Path 5/29

Good afternoon and welcome to the narrow path radio broadcasts like Steve Greg and were live for an hour each weekday afternoon and we have an open phone line for you though.

Right now the lines are full but the phone lines will open again. There will be callers on the air and some will probably not wait on line the whole time. So lines will open up and you can get through. If you have this number handy and that number is 844-484-5737 if you like to raise any questions for discussion about the Bible of the Christian faith, feel free to give me a call the number give is 844-484-5737 our first color today is Richard from seal Beach, California Richard, welcome to the narrow path is recalling a burial question was the oldest man in the Bible, everybody should make it look but in reality wouldn't really be like Elijah and Moses, because in the New Testament, they were still around, and we expect to see them come back with the Lord at the rapture to listen to on the radio. Thanks all right. Well, I don't think that knowing the oldest man in the Bible is a very important trivia about the oldest age recorded of anyone in the Bible is that of Methuselah.

Now the fact that Moses and Elijah. In addition to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. I don't know that that makes them older than anyone else.

They're not still around and hours. Elijah went away, apparently to heaven and Moses died and was buried just like most people are, but Moses was buried at age hundred 20 W. Methuselah was buried at the age 969 so if we say that Moses is still around because he's less to say. Living in another world in another life will then Methuselah would be to be older than Moses because he pretended Moses is that it's a bit of trivia. It's not very important that I don't I don't really I don't really bother myself like anything that even if even technically, I would say that if Methuselah was a saved man and Moses was a saved man and therefore we consider that they've been alive even to this day Methuselah still be alive a lot longer than most since he lived hundreds of years before Moses. All right, thank you for your call Dustin from Fort Worth, Texas.

Welcome to the narrow path I Dustin the question about the bit in first Thessalonians is often pointed at for the rapture. Verse the being caught up into the clouds with you and I'm typically asking about the part where it says and and will be like with him like this forever negative kind about what your take on the rapture, sort of.

The idea behind that verse what your take on the will be like this with Jesus forever in the clouds.

It came to me I could think in the clouds, which I think we would not say no welding, no place in the clouds doesn't specifically say will be like this with him forever just says that's we shall be always with the Lord. So we we will always be with the Lord after after he catches us up. I believe in the rapture. Now some people think when they think of the rapture. They think specifically of a rapture taken place before the tribulation and therefore the thinking of the pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe in that but I do believe the rapture of the church throughout history is always believed in the rapture. They believe that when Jesus comes back he'll raise the dead and rapture, the living saints. I believe that soon.

I think first Thessalonians is probably the most clear passage on that now he does he will meet the Lord in the air and in the clouds but eventually will stay there will be with him where he is now worse. He could be when Jesus said to be here.

She said I'm going when I come back again on his neck and back here and were to meet him in the air to accompany him.

The final leg of his descendents over government were to dwell with him on the new earth.

That's where he's going. 12 line says is in Psalm 28 that God says to Jesus ask of me and I'll give you that even for your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.

So he's going to inherit the uttermost parts of the earth will reign with him in inherit the earth to member Jesus said blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth, so being caught up to meet him in the air in the clouds is simply joining him as he descends.

We got to meet him before he gets hearing and come down the wrestling with. And that's how I understand it anyway and I was reading. I was reading the likes kind of like, and it is its way right. I guess that therefore the knee and ended right in. In some context.

It could mean in this way slightly, but it would have to mean. Thus becoming. Therefore, because we have met him in the air and will never, never separate from him again.

You know and this will only the Lord okay all right I think I appreciate your call.

Thank you for joining us. I Danny from Santa Ana, California. Welcome to the narrow path.

Thanks for going. I have heard of teaching on the nobles of Matthew 13 and had to do with the ball symbolism of the bird parable and one was the teacher. He said one point that he was making about how some churches. The just bring people in the church, but they don't disciple them in the escrow church make a very large and is talking about the mustard feet parable, and he was saying basically no go church so large and that the birds of the year come in and date the rest within the church and he was saying that the birds of the air are demons and one of the 30 point back to earth.

After that I went back to what the parable of the sower were talked about the goal that are shallow and the birds coming to get them and then deeded later.

I explained that that the evil one that comes by gets the so he saying that the birds of the air represent the evil one redeeming and that when you grow a church so big. All you're doing is bringing people converting people but not really decide that eventually you're going to get the evil influences within the church as well is one of the wood you could think being in that parable.

No, not in that parable. Now, I would agree with the pastor. It is the fault of many churches that once they bring somebody into the church. They never disciple them. They never train them to be followers of Jesus and this is a I think a bad thing. Everything it does have kinds of results-based, but to use that as an interpretation of this parable of the mustard seed I think is a mistake. It's a mistake commonly made usually by dispensational's and he may be a dispensation or if he is not a dispensation's he at least got his interpretation that parable from people who are dispensations because the dispensations believe that the church is going to be a failure in the end times is that although God, his trust of the church with his mission for 2000 years in the very end, the church will fail will be corrupted will be shot through with evil and demons and so forth. And therefore, because of the church's failure, God will have to rapture the church of the world and pour his spirit out on the Jews so that the hundred 44,000 Jews can win the world evangelize the world more effectively than the church did. This is a very good great departure from what the Bible actually teaches and what the true Christian church taught throughout history, the Bible teaches that Jesus again a rain from heaven until he's put all his enemies under his feet and then is going to resurrect the dead and the last and will be death that's destroyed.

The Bible does not talk about church being a failure in the end it all. The Bible does talk about the church being attacked by the enemy in the end, but not been a failure.

Now where your pastor is making a mistake is say he's taking the birds in the parable of the soils in Matthew 13 and he's making them mean the same thing as the birds in the parable of the mustard seed. Now why would he do that.

Well, my pastor, my former pastor who is now deceased used to say there is a us a hermeneutic rule that such a rule of biblical interpretation called the rule of exegetical constancy and he said according to the rule of exegetical constancy effect symbol is used for one thing in a certain place. Then, whenever that symbol is you somewhere else, it must mean the same thing now this is simply a thoughtless statement to make.

Although he made it many times in the course of his ministry said well it's clear that the birds that steal the seeds in the parable of the soils. Jesus said that's the devil coming to take this the word from their mind so that the birds are evil. There and now with the birds lodging in the branches of mustard tree that must be the same thing because the birds are evil and one perilously evil in both now this is really mean if you think about for a long kind of absurd since, for example, Lucifer in the Bible is called the MorningStar and so is Jesus. In Revelation chapters 22 enough the MorningStar's is a symbolic name and issues for Lucifer in one place and if there's a law of exegetical consonant has referred Lucifer. When Jesus called himself that to or the term King of Kings. Jesus is everywhere in the New Testament, referred to as the King of Kings, but in the Old Testament. Nebuchadnezzar is the King of Kings. So is Jesus the same as Nebuchadnezzar.

Obviously not even in the parables.

There are seeds in many of the parables but they don't always mean the same thing in the first parable seed is the word of the kingdom, and the second parable. It's a mustard seed and another action in Matthew 13 there is a second parable where the seed is the children of the kingdom, and the tears of the chill of the devil. Then there's the mustard seed, and then in Mark four. There's a parable where the kingdom of God itself is a seed so you got all you know seeds and always parables that they each have a different slightly different meaning for each other. There's no reason in the world that there should be a law of exegetical constancy.

For example, birds are a nuisance to a farmer if he wants his seeds to bear crops and the birds come and eat the seeds, that's a nuisance out to make that represent the devil doing his mischief. You know when the word is preached and taken out of people's hearts. That's understandable to burgers and negative there but one birds lodge in the branches of the tree that's not a negative thing this of trees affords one of the things trees are formats for birds are supposed to be God made birds to do that and in in the Old Testament there are several parables or visions in which birds lodging treason and kingdoms in these parables are. These visions are referred to as trees with birds and one of them is in Daniel chapter 4 were Nebuchadnezzar when he was doing well was like a great tree that provided shade and shelter for birds and and wildlife animals as is trees not to do in Ezekiel chapter 17. There is the kingdom of God is like into a tree that also provide shelter for birds in Ezekiel chapter 31 of the. The Assyrian Empire is compared with the great tree it when it's doing well and is providing its function. It's it's providing shade and shelter for woodland creatures that bring forth their young underage boughs of the birds are his branches, there's nothing ominous or sinister about birds being in the branches of a tree.

If your farmer again I say to something ominous about birds circling overhead, eyeing your seeds as tasty meal morsels that they want to eat that's that's ominous just like if you're out in the desert received vultures circling over that's kind of an ominous sign to when you see birds nesting in trees and raising their young. There is nothing ominous about that are not damaging the tree and not doing any harm and are just exactly where birds should be something to say well because birds represent something bad in one context, they must represent something that in every context is again simply absurd the same mistake is made with the next parable about the parable of the Easter of the 11 of the same teachers say well that Levin is a bad thing because Jesus beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and we talk about fornication in the church of Corinth and prescriptive five.

He said you know a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Get that wicked man out of there. So we do have Jesus and Paul, sometimes using leaven is an image of evil, different kinds of evil fornication one place and hypocrisy in another. Jesus said in this very chapter Matthew 13 the kingdom of God is like leaven, so obviously the kingdom of God is like leaven, then that's not a bad thing. The kingdom of God. Not bad, it's good. So again the same image can be bad in one context and good and another depending on the nature of the story so I think that to say that the birds of the treason mustard seed tree are represent something bad is 100% artificial and I think it's just going on a lazy man's you know approach to interpreting Scripture and the same is true with the next parable of the use of is a release to something bad to Jesus as the east is the kingdom of God sake might be that the kingdom of God's good so I disagree that's a long way of me saying I disagree much okay to thanks your call okay I Joseph from Ann Arbor, Michigan. Welcome to the neuropathic circling no about this. That's not real clear to me as to what happens to the soul of your expertise on that answer before you go, what are you thinking of as the soul. What is the what you consider mind. I make up the inner meaning and thought it was thought at different between the spirit and so and so that makes sense yeah that's all I need to know. I just wanted using the expression all right. I'll be glad to talk to thanks your call. Whether it is a dispute among Christian theologians as to whether the spirit and soul are not the same thing or whether they are there's one camp. That's holds the view called dichotomy, meaning that man is made of two parts, body, and inward part in the inner part is the soul or the spirit. Then there's the trichotomous view which leads it may have made up of three parts. The body and the soul and the spirit which are distinct from each other. I will say that my own leanings are toward the trichotomous view and I do tend to make a distinction between soul and spirit.

In most passages, though I do believe the terms almost seem to be used interchangeably.

In some cases and it's this case it is these cases were the soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scripture that feed and inform the view that there's really only two things is the what Paul called the outer man in second Corinthians 4 or 370, and that no forked and and there's what he called the inner man in the outer man of your body. The man would be, you know all this, whatever's inside soul spirit. Whatever lease this view would hold that the word soul and spirit and mind and heart are all different ways of speaking at the same thing. The inward part of man and also in the in the King James Levi the word Raines REI INS which is referred to the kidneys. Just like when we talk. I love you with all my heart. The Hebrews, which I love you my kidneys are. They would also use were hard to get both expressions but the kidneys were considered to be a seat of strong emotion and so forth. So any of that fits inside of you would be the inner part of the inner man, and so when you say when the body dies, and the spirit is and what is the soul go well if the dichotomous or correct the soul and spirit are essentially the same thing. So they both go the same place.

If they dichotomous or incorrect. If if trichotomous trip the soul and spirit are not the same thing. It still may be true that both go to the same place and I think that they would be my speculation based on the fact that Paul when he talks about death. He talks up as being absent from the body. So the body is seen as a place that that we either are present or absent from and we who are absent for body must be the conscious self. I believe and and so I believe the soul at the very least could be called the conscious self soul I believe is the seat of the emotions and intellect and will. I think that's kinda how you're defining the soul. Also now the spirit would be harder to define.

But I believe that you know a spiritual person there spirit or soul are very closely you know a line in and there's there's something there items are separable or not. So I can't answer your question with any certainty, partly because once of theologians would say the soul is the spirit and another set of would say no, this all the spirit are different, but might still say, but they they travel together either in the body or out of the body in life or death. So I'm going to say without without having direct Scripture that would stand totally behind what I'm saying but I'm to say that I think the soul and spirit. If they are different. Both go together to God and that's that's because the body becomes unconscious. The body becomes dead and we are absent from the body.

So whatever part of us is conscious before is apparently gone somewhere else is absent from the body that be my speculation on that adjusting from San Diego looking to the neuropathic circling well. Thanks and thanks for your soul and think about scriptures and compares them with current popular doctrines. I appreciate your show, thinking I was in the Bible. What you see if anything regarding the concept of click bankruptcy and and repaying debts. My wife and I have quite a bit of debt to try to start a business in 2016.

It didn't go so well. So we have a bit of debt and I've been for the reasons of integrity reluctant to try to to try to file bankruptcy. She suggested I wanted to your biblical you will not want to say is that that you are in so astronomical that you could just never be paid off even over years. I mean it would be painful to do them units close to hundred thousand. I understand well just tell you that I I generally speaking counsel against going to in the bankruptcy and I know it's a very painful thing when you're hardly probably able to live anyway and you think that this burden of debt. I just to me, my integrity would make me pay off the debt, even if it took the rest my life.

I had a father-in-law once who had the accident gently got in debt to the IRS. You have a company that failed and he was unable to pay the taxes and so he healed them a huge amount of money I could've been $1 million.

I'm not sure, but he was here to predict business. It probably wasn't a million is a lot of hundreds of thousands anyway and he of course could file bankruptcy.

In fact, he did file for bankruptcy, but he still paid off the debt he filed for bankruptcy to keep me home. The state off his back, but after he filed for bankruptcy, so he spent the next 12 years working and and paying the debt back until it's all paid off and I admired him for that because that's what I would want to do to you. I really feel that it it's a crushing burden.

I'm sure for many families to do that but I mean it's possible that you could file for bankruptcy and then just go and make a deal with your creditors say listen I'm I can't pay the amount I thought I could but I will make payments you know and such and such on and find it in an amount that you could actually pay the probably be glad to take some rather than men and if you file for bankruptcy. They can doing about it anyways just met her personal integrity just to know that you when you left this world, you didn't. You hadn't borrowed more money than you ever pay back CII when I leave this world. I want people to be indebted to me not be indebted to other people and you like my mentor just totally the opposite. Some people to guess back when Harold camping said that Jesus will come back in 2011.

Whatever he thought was some of the people believe and whatnot ran up the credit cards and got a mailbox new cars on noncredit software that okay so that's like I don't understand why if you think you see Jesus on such and such a day. Do you want the last thing you do to be robbing people. Why would you want to rob creditors and then go to see Jesus a distant making sense to me.

I would like what I see Jesus from say well done good and faithful servant.

No matter how hard it was for me to maintain my integrity because if I borrow money I'm promising to pay and I I'm simply not willing to promise anybody anything and not keep that promise. That's accident, that's a conviction I've had since I was a teenager that if I if I make a promise to keep it if I can, of course, of hard if I die for some that's another story, but I try not to make promises I can't keep the lots people to get into trouble with business loans and debts and I don't I'm not I'm not critical of people doing so, but I would say if filing for bankruptcy is what you have to do in order to avoid having everything taken from you, then perhaps that's okay to do, but I would still think that once you've done so even there is no legal requirement for you to do surface. You should still let your creditors know that you intend to pay them off at whatever rate you're able to might be much less than what they want but they probably rather have some that none they would have no legal recourse to force you to do a thing else you agree to what I was feeling yeah okay God bless you. I know the Psalms in the Psalms. It says the wicked borrows and does not repay.

I remember that verse when I was young sent okay. I don't ever want to be classified in God's book as wicked. That's not a very secure place to be and a sense of the wicked borrows and does not repay all it's only money you know I like and I can live in a very low standard of living.

I did some research on Osiris.

Five kids religion extremely low standard of living because we didn't have much money but you know even if I had had a lot of money, a lot of debt, I would've still a good low standard of living to pay off the debt that's that's me.

You make it different counsel from other people, but I'm I'm kind of radical about about integrity. I think Christians I think the cause of Christ is been damaged very much and I'm not said it would be by you filing for bankruptcy under sin. In general the cause of Christ is been damaged by Christians, not maintaining integrity in business and in finances as much as I think Christians should and I if I'm a real stickler for for that in my own life. Okay God bless you. I'm sorry you find yourself in this condition, since Mr. crushing, especially when you have family raising and so forth. Well Kelly to make your wife happy and take a break. At this point we have another half-hour ahead of us who don't go away.

We have some calls waiting, and some lines open so if you want to try to fill those lines flower on a break, you may do so. Listening to the narrow path radio broadcast.

My name is Steve Greg and we are live Monday through Friday for an hour and we pay the radio stations for that time. Just like just like you for paying for advertising. We don't advertising but when you buy advertising on radio station you pay for the time you buy an hour a day. You pay a lot for the time you'd like to help us pay the bills. You can by writing to the narrow path, PO Box 1732 macula CA 92593 also help us out by going to the website you can donate from there, or just take whatever is there for free. The narrow path.com, you know, the narrow path radio show is behind the radio that has nothing to sound everything to do the right thing and share with your family and friends. Tell them to tune into the narrow path on this radio station. The narrow path.com where they will find topical audio teachings blog articles and diverse teachings and archives of the radio shows you know listener supported neuropathic Steve Greg share what you know that the narrow path radio broadcast is Steve Greg and we are live for another half-hour taking your calls right now.

Alliances filled up but if you want to take a number down equality like it through.

The number is 844-484-5737 and our last caller just before the break was asking about had a lot of debt. I think very largely through no fault of his own. It was my impression business problems happened and he was wondering about filing for bankruptcy are discouraged or I said if you do flat file for bankruptcy.

You may want to pay off the debt. Anyway just to maintain your integrity.

Not one thing I didn't say I should say this now because on some some is likely to call up and say why didn't you tell them this is that in many cases when you have a huge debt like that you can go your creditors and say listen, I'm I'm forced to file for bankruptcy unless you want to settle for less. Is there any way we could settle this for lesson I make payments and get it done rather than filing for bankruptcy if they mean they made, they may cut in half.

You know there's debt counselors out there some Christian ones that sometimes negotiate with creditors or the creditors agree to lower your debt then you're not. You're not crippling your integrity are compromising your integrity by paying off what they agree to it does say in Proverbs that if you've made a commitment and snared yourself.

You should go to that person. See if you can get out of it with their permission.

In other words, just because you intended to pay the debt and and are not able to doesn't doesn't mean you have to suffer bankruptcy, you may end up getting it greatly reduced and able to pay off over time and then you consciously clear. That's what I would. I guess that's what I would try to do because I just don't like the idea of somebody else been left holding the bag because I borrowed money from them and I can pay back if they if they don't agree to lower the amount that I would still pay it.

But since since they know bankruptcy is an option for you. They may say what I'd rather get back this much from you then have you file for bankruptcy and we get nothing back so that is another thing you go to debt counselors who are those who negotiate with creditors and see if you can be reduced because that's helped. I think a lot of people to I don't know anything about it. I never really got into debt for anything but the ideas a lot of people have debts and it's important to make sure you handle it honestly is so that the creditors efforts don't see you as someone who's morally compromised. All right, let's talk to Everett from San Diego, Everett, welcome to the neuropathic for calling you think I've been through some years now.

It the idea once saved always saved when the defendant be used a lot and maybe can shed some light when I went back field a lot and the other one question is not if you're born again.

Can you become unborn and then this thing that I'm wondering if a sing-along where the bride of Christ. Well, I'll leave it blank right now are we be true, maybe you could shed some light on these things.

Okay stakes down the line if you will, so I can answer because I might forget is answer what I might forget the others are okay in Ephesians chapter 1 verse 13, Paul says in him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom your having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Pomposity resealed a lot of people mistake that to think that he's target something like when we seal something shut it so that no air can get in or nothing can get out of it. If you seal some preserves or something like that.

That's because you don't want a the liquid getting out you don't air getting in so it's it's like a seal that doesn't let a leakage take place and that's how the kind of seeing it. Like God kinda gives Holy Spirit to serve a seal that you traps everything inside, including our salvation, but that's not what a seal is in the Bible. The Bible is talking of course about a signet seal of the King or some other you know significant official so that a man puts his seal on a document with a wax seal and it's not something or prevents errors thing from going through the pages but it's it it's shuts it, but the seal on it.

It's not unbreakable. In fact, somebody supposed to break it open the document but it improves who the author is approved to the owner of the sources because he alone has the signet ring that's whose impressions in the wax so it's to say that something has the seal of somebody else or there's been sealed by them. That means that it has the mark of authenticity is being really from them when Paul says that God has sealed us with associate was he's put the seal on us. Just like in the book of Revelation chapter 7 of the plagues were not released until God had put his seal on the foreheads of the hundred 44,000 putting his seal on the means they are authentically his cousin Sandy with them, been closed up and nothing can get in or out. That's a totally unrelated concept to the seal that's in Scripture so when your friends are targets sealed that way. I think there using a different idea than Paul had in mind about the seal and therefore I don't think it has any relevance to eternal security.

Now they say if you're born again.

How can you be unborn. Why don't I don't think you can be unborn, but you can die, you know, some have been born can commit suicide, and it the fact that there born doesn't count for much anymore. You know, the prodigal son when he abandoned his father's house of his father.

The bun says he was dead when it when he came back his father's. My son was dead. My son was loss of the man was dead and lost to his father. Now he wasn't unborn. You can't change history make a birth not have happened.

So you don't get someone unborn, but a man who is born.

Our boy is born can become dead to his father and in this case the father was God in the in the prodigal son was the center whom you have had abandoned God had abandoned his father and so he was dead but he had been born and there's no reason target and been unborn intercourse is nonsense. Start targeting unborn like you can roll the tape back in the strong argument. I know they think it's a strong argument that they not thinking very clearly, like most people, like most Christians, apparently. Now I'm sorry your third point they're making art that's right I forgot the bride of Christ. Now we just need to write policy and second Corinthians chapter 11 Paul said that he had betrothed to the Corinthian church to Christ, so the imagery sounds like were betrothed to him. But then in other passages. Imagery sounds like were married to him like in Romans chapter 7 for he says that we've we've died to the law through the body of Christ that we might be married to another, even him the trays from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God now wishes were to be.

We died also to be married to Jesus coming that could even still be thinking about eventually remarried but they says that we bear fruit for God, which I think these are but in this life.

So I think he's you can read the metaphor commission shifted depending on what Paul wants to say. I think principally the idea betrothed is what is in mind because it's in contrast to the wedding supper that we find at the end of Revelation 19 are not the early part of Revelation 19 where the wife has made herself ready in the leadings of has come, but the wedding supper is an in the Bible and in I should say in Jewish culture.

The wedding supper was long on the wedding feast. The wedding feast could be two weeks long. That's why it was possible for some of the run out of wine because they know how much you be drunk in two weeks and miscalculated and that's why Jesus made water to wine to help some people that would miscalculated say I think that the whole wedding you could say that the couple is betrothed until the wedding is over, but since there at the wedding so the kind of married to me. I think it's kind of transitional time and it's I think it's possible for the Bible to use both images depending on what's try to get across, but to say that lets you say that the church is now the bride of Christ, troth or patrol demonic is because betrothal can't be broken without a divorce and biblical culture saw me years years connected is as committed when you betrothed us when you're married, so if they're saying what were the bride of Christ and therefore you know we care he's not going to divorce his bride well we, the church collectively world what we are the bride of Christ that does mean I personally or you personally are the bride of Christ we are part of identity is called the bride of Christ. Just like Israel. The whole nation was called God's wife will all of Israel was God's wife but not every Israelite you know remained on good terms with God means that mean there is rights who died and went to help her or at least the ground swallowed up, you know. Certainly Judas Iscariot is not considered received mantle. He was in Israelite souls Caiaphas and all the bad guys who crucified Jesus so Israelite yogurt there in a nation which is called the wife of God. Not anymore. But then, but an individual has every determinative power to decide whether there can be part of that wife of God are not because life of God in Israel continue to exist even when some people were excommunicated and didn't work part of Israel. More when they're put to death. Same thing in the church. The church is the bride of Christ.

But that does mean I am. It means that as long as I'm part of the church. I'm part of the bride. If I don't remain a part of the church. I don't remain part of the products of the bride is a corporate entity is not me individually and there's certainly Bible does warn us about falling away. Jesus himself said that he is the vine and we are the branches and he urges us to remain in him and he says if you don't remain merely cast off and withered and thrown in the fire so that's a course first. That's John 15 a picture over six butts and there's other place quite a few places that speak about. So as individuals we are warned that we could fall away and we shouldn't if we do, it's doom were doomed. But that doesn't change the fact of the brightest of the bride were just not part of current yeah okay really your ministry on publisher to thanks for joining us. Michael in Santa Cruz hi Michael, welcome to the narrow path hi David. Today is only so in the dominant view would it be like something that I think they call it in any one of the 5.0 is in a depravity until it be like something let's say I don't know the base metal that plaintiff fight called you know the old alchemy that they could transmute the base metal into gold.

A replacement of one nature by another in it and in the Armenian view would be more like something that a human being and spark the essence of God in his or her being but it's been corrupted but through justification like a diamond by coal can be refined and become a diamond that the nature is the same nature, refined or transformed with without being an accurate way of understanding the covenant in the Armenian. On the nature of what actually nature of salvation writes on processing your analogy and so, like I don't speak too hastily that it sounds sounds as if that could work in some ways, but if you realize that Arminians and Calvinists both believe that human nature is corrupt and sinful. It's just that Arminians believe that man's nature is tainted with sinfulness and and that we are very self-centered and very inclined to sin, but also that we are made in the image of God and that Satan did not have more power to damage the Godhead took to create something in his image and therefore, Satan has damaged us know we are in the image of God but we still have some leverage got what you called. I think you call spark of God or some like that. It simply that there's something of us that is made in God's image and that's why you find that people have conscience. For example, I believe and why people have spiritual interests even when they're not believers in God. You yourself have very much spiritual, intracellular, Buddhist and and get out so Christian would have to either say well your spiritual interest is not sincere. I guess accountants have say that or in our meetings, they will know your your spiritual interest could be very sincere because God made us spiritual beings and made us so that we do crave something of God in our lives aware or connection with God and that would explain why there are other religions who are, groping around in the dark trying to find who God is. They got this desire that Calvinism teaches that total depravity has so corrupted human nature that there's not one thing a man can do that is not tainted by his sinful motivations so that there's they would say until you become a Christian you can be the sweetest Buddhist or Jew or Hindu or whatever and the and and yet everything you do is sinful because everything from sinful motivations. Certainly, the Bible doesn't say that it's simply a point of Calvinist doctrine and that they repeated, and the proof text they quote don't say that at all, but they don't notice that because in many cases are not that interested in executing Scripture interested in improving their points and anyone who's doesn't have a dog in the race like myself like I could be Calvinists of the Bible taught it or something else.

The Bible teaches it. Anyone can say back and looks at those verses don't say that. So what are you saying that you know but yeah I think you have your analogy being that the Calvinists would say that you know to try to make up a fallen person have anything in them that is good is like. The ancient superstition, alchemy, trying to turn coal into gold, but but that there is something there is potential for good in people that are made in God's image.

Anyone who says that there's no put potential for something that God made in his image is not giving God for much credit for making stuff.

Good and sure were damaged by sin. We been corrupted in our nature. We are guilty of sin, we need to be forgiven. We need to be redeemed, but we can be and the Calvinists of so you can't be.

Unless, of course, God unconditionally elected you to and then he makes it all happen you don't have any real choice in the matter. We all Arminians are your choices a great deal to do with what goes on and and you you you have to make certain choices to follow Christ and to submit to him and so forth and so yeah well see your illustration make some sense in the comment you to be paying that it will because it can donate total depravity situation that is amply nothing good in a human being is under present corrupt ungodly total and by implication, it would be that you would be asserting that new nature is given not not by the person choice, but by divine providence will that's a common sense and so it is nothing that is nothing that can be done with the only heritage is from discarded in the end it is a new nature of the new nature being of God would not need salvation, if you are getting out.

You have the irony irony is that Collins don't believe that salvation simply discards the old nature. They believe that we still struggle with the old nature.

I think most Christians believe that and I think Calvinist among them is so although they would say that God that we are so bad that we cannot even turn to God unless God makes it happen.

They would say that it when God does make it happen. It doesn't stop us from being really bad, it simply adds a potential for us to to be in no sanctified and and and that that is a gradual thing would become a more you contradict the your total depravity because anything that would have the nature of total depravity would have no potential. According to the definition that you have no potential for goodness I have the Armenian view made for the event and it is a basic fee. There can be cultivated and then brought out in the midst of the band find whatever it is something that can be worked with the native cavity view with listening to Sen. it just bad altogether. That doesn't make sense yeah I appreciate you bringing that up for site I agree with you course because I'm not a Calvinist, but it's great that you are struggling with those concepts because of the cover needs. Think about them.

I think Calvinists need to think about them more than they generally have appreciate your call Michael.

I'm running out of time, but I have quite a few people waiting to talk.

It's good talking to you today a Paul from Portland, Oregon. Welcome to the narrow path.

It's the call I probably just bothers me. Basically it's the concept of eternal torment in hell. The words burning and torture without end, ever, ever, that just does not seem like that's what God is like. I cannot do it with.

What's your well my thoughts on that are that it's the Bible does not require us to believe that hell is that way. There are about 45 verses in the Bible that have been interpreted that way and it sound like they can be observed that within there's a handful or does more verses that people can enter that way without anything in them suggesting it. There are three different views that Christians have held historically through how about hell, even from the earliest ages the church to church leaders of of of the highest rank were in all three different camps and one view is is the one you're talking that's called eternal torment view that is become called the traditional view because the view that Augustine taught and Augustine influence theology in Catholic and Protestant churches more than any other man in history. Certainly more than Jesus or Paul as more people who follow Augustine's teaching and followed Paul. Jesus taught, but all church authorities.

All church historians would agree nobody influence Christian doctrine more than Augustine and he was about 400 years after Christ, before that before that time the church had a multiplicity of views because the Bible is not clear on it and there was the view that Augustine held earlier miniature Chilean held the view that of eternal torment in church really was kind of a try to know some people say he is credited hard spirited guy, but there were other other views like Irenaeus was certainly one of the leading church leaders. He was a disciple of Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus believed in what we call conditional enrollments, immortality, and he believed that those who do not become Christians do not exist forever that they will be deprived of eternal existence.

He several times so his view was that people don't don't live consciously forever unless they become a Christian.

And then of course when they die they go to be with God but those who those who don't become Christians don't have immortality because immortality is conditional upon faith in Christ.

Even John 316 seems to say that God's will of the world that he gave his only grandson, that whoever believes in him will not perish repairs means be destroyed will not perish but have everlasting life. So believing in Jesus is the condition for having everlasting life, and the opposite is to Paris so Irenaeus and some other leading church authorities have held held that young medic and many Christians do today and that would suggest that God doesn't torture people forever.

He simply doesn't let them live forever if they have not received eternal life through Christ that is the right right there be a punishment to be proportionate like in a just court system God and hopefully never seen a just court system anywhere but in a real just court system people.

People will be punished more for more severe crimes than for less severe crimes, but they would not know when to be tortured forever, you know, and so such proportionate punishment and then annihilation would be the view.

Yeah the 30. I understand that and there's another church father named origin and before him Clement of Alexandria, who believed that hell is actually more like rehab that God sends people to hell who were not able to be brought to him in this lifetime, and he continues to work on them in hell until they do come to him so that he lived. He believed that God would never create something that would not ultimately accrue to his own ultimate benefit in God is not God's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. And certainly no one who would prevent God from continuing to work on the center in hell if he wanted to help. Does the Bible say he does that. It does not. It does not say doesn't does not say he doesn't. It depends on how you interpret certain verses, but there wasn't a leading theologian in the early church and the second third centuries who who believed that this would hell is that God who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance that he will work on sinners, even after they died. He doesn't force them to get saved is the view but that he gives them for opportunity and will certainly have more light.

That is to say, they'll know who God is more and who Jesus is more after mixing so that those are the three views I don't know which few really has the best scriptural support. I did write a book about it. 300 page book called neo-all you want to know what health regression views, but I give all the scriptural arguments for and against each view. But you know I I. I'm like you, I just don't see what the point is of eternal torment. There's you see, each of those views has a different purpose for hell if if if origin was correct. The purpose of hell is to bring people to salvation who could run salvation during the lifetime if the second view is correct.

If Irenaeus's view is correct, then the purpose of hell is to take out the trash and burn it up in owners, whatever.

Yeah whole thing is like capital punishment is like capital punishment is like putting down, putting down a dog that's so sick that you can't help better the traditional view.

What is the purpose of hell in the traditional view of eternal torment has no purpose unless it's just to ventilate God's eternal and so so why would we think. Why would anyone think that God would gladly accept the sin of repentance on his deathbed, but the moment after he dies, God hates him so much she can't get enough torturing to Jan… It's not a very sensible and it has less scripture in its favor than the other two views have the other two transit there when the Bible was originally well not when it was first written, but Augustine didn't read Greek New Testament was written in Greek and he can read Greek, you can only read Latin, so it is possible that he was misinterpreting some passages because he only is the Latin Bible on the Greek Bible, the earlier fathers who didn't agree with him. They were Greek speakers from from birth. They were so so I would recommend if you want more information to go to my website. The narrow path.com and for free.

You can listen to my lecture called three views of hell, three views of hell at my website.

The narrow path.com if you want to go into it deeper you get my book on hell which you can go from different Amazon or wherever I'm out of time. I'm very sorry to say but thank you for calling you listening to the narrow path radio broadcast my name Steve Greg we are listener supported.

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