Why I Believe in Five-Fold Ministry

What is fivefold in every possible profit today stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH your again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are going to have a very formative helpful broadcast down the line of fire. Welcome welcome this is Michael Brown talk about Scripture scriptural application today regarding apostolic and prophetic ministry. We talk too much about controversies and misunderstandings I thought would be good to lay out what I do believe up. Talk about these things before but to do my best to be very clear. Now if you're used to watching and not just listening. We do not have a live video feed were coming away from Toronto thought we were set up for a normal fee but had some tech issues so everything normal in our audio feed, but unfortunately no video preceptor picture picture the mustache I'm still here and are going to be bringing on a colleague of mine, Dr. Bob Gladstone worked together for over 20 years. He's a longtime faculty member at fire school of ministry are very careful student of the word have a constructive conversation.

If you have a question specifically regarding apostles, prophets today do they exist with biblical what's not. 866-348-7884 so I was sent a link by one of my friends the other day and it's it's a website I don't go to it. It's a destructive critical website and it says I've been in damage control about nor issues. I thought what in the world are they talking damage control about new apostolic Reformation. But what what damage it can control for earth. I'm wonderfully blessed, thriving, enjoying the goodness of the Lord of our audience. The reach we have touching many many unblessed privileged to be able to do that on a daily basis. We continue to reach more and more for the gospel for the Lord so I'm thrilled with that and there's a handful of critics to get exactly whatever I do, that folks will send me the websites that normally just so I know because I won't read them or or or listen to the podcast or watch the YouTube videos attacking meat, but normally might my team will just send it to music and you believe Alyssa and I generally feel bad for the folks attacking but the last concern I have is that folks who have a ready rejected nearby ministry are attacking. In fact, if they weren't attacking. I think I be doing some wrong. I'd I feel blessed if they blogged about me by the hour instead of only once a week or once a month.

I feel I'm doing something really right if they attacked me on a daily basis. I feel bad for them as brothers in the Lord.

I feel bad for them and wish God's best.

Wish they'd enjoy the fullness of the spirit, but is no damage control over here. I'm blessed and enjoying God's goodness. So the question is the question is why do I take issue with the mythical no art which is basically a creation of the critics. Why do I take issue with specific teachings that were espoused by Dr. Peter Wegner with new apostolic Reformation knows the real nor two that really exists that I differ with on some points and what is it I actually embrace if I believe that there are apostles and prophets today does not make me part of this not know that's that's the mythical critical creation of this mass worldwide network of churches working some type of unified, conspiratorial way, etc. not that doesn't exist but there is; new apostolic Reformation reports agreed within other parts. I disagreed with. So what I wanted you today is put forward my understanding scripturally exegetical eat practically of of apostolic ministry fivefold ministry and why I believe in a today. So, without further due Bob. Welcome to the broadcast, gray tabby on today. Thanks for having me at the privilege, Dr. Brown felt so Bob, when is it that you first became convinced based on Scripture that apostolic and prophetic ministry still existed in the church.

My earliest days of the Christian just reading my Bible. I expected it to be true even though the denomination I was in did not talk much about it. I just assumed it to be a reality because of what I read in the Scripture all right. Are there passages in particular that were foundational. Perhaps Ephesians 4 without one of the key ones.

Definitely we have a funny phrase we say around our out on the churches that were involved in that everything does or seems to come back all the way through Ephesians 411.

So of course Ephesians for all of Ephesians is very foundational for me in my vision of the church in the way God built and operates in this church. And of course no Matthew 16 of the foundation of the church with the apostle.

There also are children. Let's unpack Ephesians the fourth chapter for some unmarked read the relevant verse three from the ESV and then you can take it from there. So is it saying that the same one who descended into the lowest parts of the earth, namely Jesus also must send it and it says verse 11, he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers of the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ to you all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped reach but is working properly makes the body grossly builds itself up in love and ink incredible set or two sentences from Paul, but let's let's back up and say that traditionally the way most churches understood this to the centuries is that God gave apostles and prophets like Paul and John that the 12 he gave them is the foundation along with New Testament prophets and that was just to lay the foundation of the church. With Jesus being the chief cornerstone. And now there are the ongoing ministries of evangelists, pastor and teacher. What do differ with in that explanation while the sheer fact that they are all five that in verse 11 of chapter 4 know they they stand together or they fall together. There is no exegetical reason whatsoever in the passage or around it elsewhere to divide that set from 5 to 3 determinant of those ministries is given explicitly in the text as you just read in verse 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith in the knowledge of the son of God's will mature man, etc. so the the equipping of the church's responsibility of the five not three out of and determine it is when we reach this final maturity, which is when all five if there to be obsolete would become obsolete. At the end of the HS about. That's why I like the passage as it is. Excuse me God yet feel it if I don't know anything. I'm just reading Scripture in Scripture's is my God.

So the script for this is what I base my faith, and not later church teaching or tradition, or claim. I got a revelation of something this patient things on Scripture that you are saying the most natural understanding is that God put apostles, prophets, inventions, pastors, teachers, into the church for certain purpose until we reach a certain goal, and we reach that goal. We all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. At that point that these five ministries will no longer be needed for sure yes exactly all right now. Is there a distinction between the 12 apostles, whose names will be on the foundation stones of the of the new Jerusalem, and many of whom wrote Scripture. And if their name was associated with the New Testament book. It was more likely to be recognized as canonical.

Is there a distinction between those apostles and similarly: apostle place first part of the question and second for the question. Does the New Testament make that distinction yes and yes I believe it does because they're known as the 12 and you alluded to the passages Revelation that sees them as foundational, historically, and so that there is a distinction among apostles but Paul is the one that shows us he's a key figure in this whole equation that though the 12 are distinct with an extremely special place in history and of course a lot of that relates to Israel, not just the church because of God's goal to have the promises fulfilled in Israel there is a renewed messianic nation in the 12 and beyond. To be completely fulfilled in the last days about Paul is kind of the X factor who, when he is called and plunged into a genuine apostolic ministry.

Keith setting the precedent for the post ascension apostle that he himself speaks about in Ephesians 4 to the 12 is a have a special place in history and frankly in eternity, but that doesn't that doesn't bring cessation to apostolic ministry does the opposite sex it in motion and are there others in the New Testament outside of the 12 who are called apostles yet course other than Paul James is clearly numbered among the apostles Barnabas is explicitly called an apostle twice by Luke once a clearly implied by Paul in first Corinthians 9 and then you have Sylvain's and Timothy even a policy I believe are are all part of the we went. Paul speaks of the we, apostles of Christ.

In first Thessalonians.

So yes, others are called apostles of the highest kind, not just the church is mentioned in Philippians God, why do you think it is then that that church by tradition in the centuries that followed ceased to use that name for its main leaders, or am I mistaken about that yet.

Well, it certainly has fallen by the wayside. You know, historically, I think there's two reasons for that know the think some of the things that the Reformation, of course, was standing up for in seeking to reform was in reaction to the kind of church tradition from the Roman church that equated apostolic ministry with the Pappas and so in that sort of thing coming again another kind of twisting of the Scriptures. I think you know, place and people thinking even today that if we start talking about apostolic authority. If the new kind of The I think there's a fear there. I think there's tradition there and then from a larger, more spiritual point of view and apostles as you read about it. You should to. And then just in the narrative of acts, and wherever else you know the Paul comments that his ministry in Corinth and everywhere you know these fees ministries of apostles and prophets really inject the mystery of Christ DNA into the church.

That's their whole point. So without that the church runs on part of the engine of the spirited part of the dishes yet.

It will come back to this because my college Xbox live so Kelly partially ministry about five fold ministries. I think you find it very helpful and gives the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown make friends for a lot of fire speaking with my friend and longtime colleague Dr. Bob Gladstone about fivefold ministry, starting with what Scripture says. But then I want to be as is practical as I can, I will want to be practical in terms of what we understand apostolic or prophetic ministry means today. Once once more. The goal is to be practical.

The goal is not just to give scriptural information, but to be as practical as possible so Bob back to the question about Scripture, tradition in the church, why, why can't we just have pastors and evangelists teachers. I mean why. Why do we need these these other types of ministries or offices.

Why are they so important. The apostles and prophets create the foundation upon which everything else is built and that's not merely a reference to strict Scripture in the abstract, but the revelation of Scripture that defines essential DNA of the church. Apostles and prophets give practical voice to those elements of the Scriptures that define the ongoing actually the initial and the ongoing identity of the church itself you know if we need the other three beneath the first to their foundational art. So what is one of the pastor do that's different or pastor/teacher. What is what is that person do that's different than what an evangelist of wealth pastors and teachers are for the ongoing, of course, maturity and instruction guide and protection of the church, doctrinally practically no Paul sent Timothy or Titus and set you note invest these things to faithful men, who were able to instruct others. So the very foundation laid by Paul prophets are meant to be carried on in the ongoing local life of churches, whereas evangelists are more of an itinerant ministry. Apparently we go by Phillips example to proclaim the gospel with the special grace to win people to Jesus, you know, there's a good pattern in acts 84 Philip evangelist appeared in Samaria. He proclaimed the gospel in the power of the spirit. The signs and wonders are attending to draw people to the truth to minister to their life. The apostle than to have them come to validate what happened. They lay hands on their the baptism in the Holy Spirit that not only acts to fill to get the people filled with the spirit, but to establish a local work in the image of Jesus as a community all right and then someone with the prophetic gift. Let's say we don't recognize that this exist today. One might happen to that person.

If we think will you're either a pastor or teacher evangelist, third gifting and calling doesn't fit in with that and and and where would that person be frustrated or forced into a mold is not really them yet that's exactly what would happen in there are many very prophetic people because God cherishes the gift of prophecy at such a powerful and important gift. You know there there there kind of dealing with this high-octane energy in reality inside of them.

What you do with that. If you don't have affirmation among the brothers and sisters in the church know could cause real problems and dilemmas in emotionally, psychologically and thankfully there's more latitude for people like that the function and so there is a recognition of diversities of gifts that we have a certain model mother. Some of called Sola Pastore that the only office recognizes the local church with a pastor. We hardly recognize the gift of an evangelist all your pastor/teacher and that's it. So people with other callings that are anointed by God and called to serve the body don't get recognized words or have to function in a way that's not really them.

So what what about apostolic ministry in Georgia Montréal.

I'm sorry I can't bring you on the line now, but the nature of our set up today because of some tech issues like I can't bring you on the line but your question is how do we identify a real apostle today that's that's George's question. So George keep listening for the answer that's an important question that's part one, part two aren't there abuses with people saying while I'm an apostle and therefore they can lord it over people so first port how we recognize an apostle today. Second part is there the possibility of abuse of of that title or office.

You this is again one of the one of the important functions of Paul within Scripture and for precedents that are into the future.

How do we define an apostle. While he gives us a great example and integrate instructions functionally speaking it's a church planting ministry right, of course. Therefore, there is evangelism and discipleship at a foundational level, but the church planting ministry is one of the declarations of apostolic ministry doesn't mean other people can't plant kinds of churches, but apostle do so. Specifically, with an understanding of what I would call the mysteries in the tradition that Paul himself puts out throughout his letter in a particularly a full gospel that reaches its climax in the Constitution of the family. That's one of the great declarations of the work of the gospel that he could bring together Jews and Gentiles and people of all different background into a very United deeply connected family. So the church of the church planting ministry is a huge part of the fruit of the apostolic ministry. No. Paul gave other kinds of examples. There's things that have to do with his patients, integrity, his willingness to be a foundational person to work in the basement you know and to have a particular bent to to be a servant rather than have a platform ministry, which is where some of the abuses coming. We take a title that's powerful to validate a ministry that has power over people were as apostolic ministry tends to have all of its power beneath people as a servant to lift them up. Now, in that there's tremendous authority but it's not given in an overpowering way printed and under powering way. Of course, Paul also endured certain kind of persecution which he actually uses as part of his credentials to the Corinthians as proof of his ministry. So those are a few things he mentions God hate Doug George.

Thank you sir for the question again, sorry couldn't bring you on the air, ask it, but thanks for that. So, so Bob, let's look at. Most denominations see if you got Roman Catholicism with papal head, you've got Greek Orthodox to Russian orthodoxy and they have their respective types of of of heads or leadership, then you have denominations you have Southern Baptist Assemblies of God Presbytery Lutheran denominations and many others do they run themselves in a way where they have some type of authority coming down where we are the very thing your time in terms of apostolic site church planting movement that then they grow into hundreds of churches that are networked together around the world due to the apostolic person is a foundation layer and the servant of all account of a spiritual father to the movement of this I have kind of a parallel denominations, except it ends up being somewhat hierarchical will.

It's hard for me to see a perfect parallel life. I see you know if you're already doing things without the actual persons of all that you're going to have to build a system without their wisdom and therefore it will turn into something else. Now if by chance, so to speak. You do have apostolic people who find a way in these unit maybe not recognizing their call and they become part of the denominational hierarchy, I would. I would say a couple of things number one as long as their present and there really functioning in their great they're gonna bring a measure of of health and and and so that's a good thing and I think got all the good that happens in any denomination. If you have real Christians doing their best, following Jesus and am thankful for that.

On the other hand, you know they might get frustrated and have to leave eventually slips this.

The two things I often see happening it is difficult because apostle the way Paul operated as I understand it he doesn't create merely a system of a hierarchy. It's something far more organic and supernatural, which by the way, and of this will be my last thing that they about that but that brings with it tremendous risk you know the way apostles and prophets work or without that kind of abusive authority or any kind of system that brings a kind of control or a cookie-cutter identity to the very thing that they often get blamed for the very thing that they would really speak out against which means there's tremendous risk because they're trusting the Lord rather than any kind of political control to keep the churches healthy and that's why we have much of the New Testament as Paul spoke into this risk to to correct all kinds of problems and abuses in the churches that were meant to go off autonomously and and exist as temples of Christ in their respective city got it and what what may sound to some listeners, abstract and difficult to grasp becomes very natural and we think family if we think organic if we think relational and then if we recognize that authority comes from God that no person in the church can lord it over another person.

That authority comes from the Lord and is an authority to build up not to tear down I friends on them. Continue on the other side of the break this conversation with my friend and colleague Dr. Bob Gladstone and by the way, God's call unifier school of ministry. This is one of the men you get to sit under and he will get the poor into you and students for over two decades now I've been deeply blessed by his insights from Scripture again. I'd be curious if someone could show me scripturally explicit that apostolic and prophetic ministry ceased. I think through history, we can identify people who truly been apostolic who truly been prophetic. We just haven't recognize them with those titles or descriptions, but I think if we do we can better appreciate the ministries they have and how they function and how God uses assess the right to light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 8663 here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends for today on the line if I this is Michael Brown were talking about so-called fivefold ministry when called with an Ephesians for pulses, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. This is that these are put for the edifying of the body to equip the saints until we reach a certain point of maturity. Jesus, which actually has to do with when he returns that we were nowhere near that of the church worldwide and this is something were still growing into which would lead me to understand that apostles, prophets, vendors, pastors and teachers continuing the body until this day and in and in my view, there have been many apostolic people in church history and if you look at the role of Patrick in Ireland I noticed some Lauren tradition with the sentiment. Apostolic man pioneer the gospel brought the gospel to the rear reboot became a church planter in the work that multiplied and he was a spiritual father to it does mean I agree with everything Patrick would've taught her said that using as an example or a man like John Wesley. I look at as an apostle in the 1800 1700s and she's really from 17 wants us 703-1790 want that he wasn't called an apostle, but I believe is in apostolic man. He was a church planter. He was a soul winner.

He laid foundations for scriptural revelation of Jesus and birthed a movement that multiplied into millions of people. Hudson Taylor China inland Mission. My friend Jason Cottam in India. None of these men use the title apostle befriended a soup automatic vision of Jesus when he got saved, he's been stone for preaching the gospel seen the power of God and demonstration is planted well over 70,000 churches and unreached tribal regions. I look at was a truly apostolic man, but you'll never find more of a servant, then use a pot of what he leads and and he has tremendous authority in the Lord.

But when he goes to Bertha work in another country just goes insurgency begins to minister to the poor and the homeless and serve them at his own expense and and builds up a work from there. So we're not talking about somebody lording it over you or someone take authority over you and so you must listen to me because on the apostle who teaches that way, as is abusive and and I would question right there there apostolic ministry. But these things remain important to this day I believe is we take hold of them. The body can be enriched so if you have a question please call 866-34-TRUTH 87884 and will get back on the phone with my friend and colleague Dr. Bob Gladstone, Bob you are a careful student of Scripture you got a PhD and it is in New Testament studies. I had the pleasure being one of the readers in your doctoral dissertation of the seriousness of your work. You also man of the spirit a broader question do you find a conflict between the spirit and the word conflict between mind and heart, all of course not know there is a tremendous harmony in the same spirit that grieved the Scriptures. Of course he's the one that lives inside of our hearts so you know the charismatics modern-day apostles and prophets, or whatever else no one is interested in creating new Scripture, but rather in unleashing the truth that's already in Scripture with the modern power of the Holy Spirit. So when Jesus talks about the father is looking for people who worship him in spirit and in truth.

We Jesus rebukes the religious leaders say you're mistaken because you understand the power of God or the Scripture that makes a lot of sense to write yet there is definitely a marriage between the superior will. The word that I've spoken to you, they are spirit and they are like that. Yeah, the great great verse from John six. On that note, Dr. Peter Wegner wrote a lot on apostolic ministry and was a leader in what many call the new apostolic Reformation will refer to this in the specific sense of of a movement that he led and helped articulate and he believed, for example in designating your the apostle over the city. You're recognizing someone and appointing him in that way and he talked about. For example, apostles in the marketplace that you didn't have to be in church ministry to be an apostle of or maybe she had more than one church, apostle G think it was good and the teaching you think there is error in the teaching did you interact with it much over the years, you know, unfortunately, it has to start with the latter part of your question. I have not interacted with it much at all.

I go mostly by what I've heard of, for instance, what you just said and you know I don't really see that is the scriptural model that just winds up getting hierarchical yet again. Now you're using the old human systems and traditions and just labeling them with scriptural language so I can that you note, you illustrated it well with gay soup Ottoman others that the whole nature and tenor of apostolic ministry. It comes with great authority. It's all expressed through almost a modesty and a meekness that wants to serve and bring the kingdom which is your the authority of heaven on earth, but to bring it to servitude and helping people become who they are supposed to be from underneath them. People like this have no interest in overseeing region. No Paul spoke to regions when he wrote second Corinthians, not just Corinth but these other regions of Acadia. He had great influence but he doesn't mind another apostles come through. He wanted a policy urgently to come back at that at that time when you wrote first current, but he didn't want to.

There was a welcoming of the different ministries. No one saw like a kind of thrown her a chair of any kind of organizational authority over region with anything good done these kinds of ministers want. There was no appointing of of power. The more people involved, the better for Paul so that that's more of a way of thinking that I don't see matching what you just described right and and how you feel about using titles below the… If you have a house Truth Network a local church that you oversee correct yes. So in excess you do pastoral work. Your shepherd of the flock right yes and am raising up others to do the same God it so so you are the lead Elder, among other elders correct. Yes I would say that at this point, all right got and do you or are you Pastor Bob is that your title or pastor Gladstone. Nope, not at all on Bob Bielby. I only ask that and I'm not indicting. Trust me, I have plenty of friends who are pastor this or pastor that eventually his revenge is I'm not I'm not indicting those who use titles and, in any way. People referred me to Dr. Brown that is okay. All I'm saying is your whole model with anything would be the same ministry, but apostles, but why don't you want to put a new title in front your name will for me personally, no matter what other theological and spiritual reasons.

I have just doesn't fit my personality or my heart. You know, I do believe in honor and respect them and I respect when other cultures want to use titles more. I'd still like it, but if it's more part of the culture right, I feel more tolerant of it.

But for me personally it just doesn't feel right. That's on a very subjective level and so then that's just the way it is.

You know I want people to have respect and honor. Just because that's what's in their heart and because they respect people and for me to be respected that way is great, but I don't want to demand it, and sometimes the title insinuates that you're demanding and on a superficial level. I'm not comfortable with it and I want people to learn respect and honor, even if they're not using titles got it all right so let me come at this from a different angle on if you've ever heard the joke about the sum of speaking got a guest speaker at the service and usual virtual drive to someone is bringing him a glass of water and as the guys walking trips and falls in the water the spelling on the floor and the pastor jumps up and goes all brother are you okay you will write in and the evangelist jumps up and he says everybody listen, listen, we are all like poured out water. We are all lost in the is there someone here who needs Jesus and the teacher jumps up and says, you know, I was noticing the way you were carrying that water you really weren't paying a tape you walk more carefully and in the properties you see your displays. If you're so anyway there's a joke about everybody respond differently yet. I like to use this analogy that the pastor says to his leadership team listen we need to get to know one another better.

Here were really really distant from each other as as a church and and let's have the first Sunday of every month we have a potluck meal can all get together and fellowship after the Sunday service in the evangelist on the leadership team has pastor I know what you're trying to do. But that's not right. We we have a lost neighborhood people you don't even know Jesus and that it's wrong for us to be sitting having a meal we need to be doing outreach knocking on doors and then the prophetic leader gets up and he says pastor. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but the fact is this too much sin in the Need to repent of our sin. And when we repent then we can have some fellowship and then the teacher among the leadership pastor. It's a great idea, but I think it would be good if I could do it teaching on the meaning of coin and the first I think it would really help.

What was a joke. As you know each gift each person sees things differently carries a different burden of 50 apostle into this mix with the apostle bringing that that's different.

Coming from a different angle. Perhaps seeing different priorities.

Yes, that's a great question. I'd start by saying that I do believe that there are different emphases even among apostles, even though the general the general approach would be consistent among them you like to believe a policy verdict.

For example, was apostolic faced the figures with the teacher, but I believe Paul included him in one of his wee statements and you know he came and watered something that was already there, appalled at the same for Rome. So there is apostolic ministry to water something already planted us Allstate. There's even a different empty difference in emphases among apostles, but in that schema that you just gave, I would think the apostle would come in, usually starting things as the father figure with a family with that diversity just like you know I have five children and there's five different radically different in some ways, personalities and gifts that and approaches we kind of live what you just illustrated often times in our household possibly come in and recognize the whole. The reality of that family and the reality of the tension, not relational. Hopefully. But in terms of the gifts. The apostles are the ones with wood planted that way want it that way. And then, as Paul did in first Corinthians 13 really 11 through 14 say hey here's the diversity love is what supposed create all there's times we listen more than one. There's times we listen more to the other. It just depends on what the Spirit is doing.

But if we can harmonize our differences, we have the very family that God created us to be to be possibly come underneath and say okay let's learn how to put all this together. God is all right. I hope this is making some sense the friends I do believe in fivefold ministry they would not the way a lot of it gets represented in the so-called mythical worldwide are it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. Those are you still watching the broadcast real audio only we had some tech issues in Toronto but we had some geniuses in here trying to get the problem solved.

These guys were sharp and I mean they were in the league way beyond anything I can relate to run able to overcome some of the problems in any case, we got a break broadcast. We have made plans to make sure you can listen and watch tomorrow on Thursday was Thursday, so all those that watch on Facebook live or watch on YouTube live, you will be able to do that as well but they were audio only and am joined by my friend and colleague Bob Gladstone, a Bob and I worked together now for over 21 years. Amazingly enough, so when I first met Bobby had two kids now two of his kids are going through or ministry school once about to graduate so amazing journey. Bob hasn't been it has been like it's a dream it's a dream from so long ago. In the days of revival and seeing so much growth and change over the years together just been amazing. Dr. Brown and a privilege to walk it with you.

You will you have been absolute key person in it and as we been recently reconnecting with a lot of grads on Facebook to hear the impact you have on their lives and so gratifying and then to find out the futility of their producing, and how others have really gone through rough times but endured in The testimony of Jesus. It's amazing to see so let let's come at this from a totally other angle Bob and and think about prophetic ministry and in this is some I got my attention so number one just like you. Many years ago, I concluded based on Scripture that there were apostles and prophets continuing today before ever heard of of of his teaching about her preaching about the just seem wow if I still believe the gifts are for today. Where does it say that apostles and prophets in operative.

I still believe this prophecy and prophetic ministry with city of the sea. So we understand the 12 unique group called the 12 with the authority they had in the will never be another 12. That's them, but these other aspects of of ministry fivefold sure want to continue until this day. So you came to a just reading Scripture early on, I came to it.

Some years later reading Scripture. This is decades and decades ago, but on a personal practical level was important.

When I started preaching at the age of 18 in 1973 pastor knew I was called to preach.

That was clearly annoyed with your life sometime after that I began doing teaching in the church as well in and the results you grace to teach but we basically had two concepts of full-time ministry pastor or evangelist that is is pretty common is that Bob yes for sure yet, so that the reader pastor is so evangelist travels and preaches and calico fiery messages and the pastor shepherds the flock and of the passages whether teaching is as well. Maybe your teacher, like in the seminary so I traveled my past makeup cards, you know that's evangelist Mike Brown but it never fit that's not who I was. But we all do the work of evangelism and I might evangelist my Jewish people, but this is the primary calling on my life but I have this tremendous burden to preach repentance and to wake up the sleeping church and I good grip with the steep burden that related to the kind of the prophetic heart and I really resonate with people like Leonard Ravenhill and David Wilkerson why look at us as prophetic man in the last generation, but there was no place for that.

There was no recognition of that when I realize that these aspects of ministry were still for today that I understood Alisa I had a prophetic side as well, meaning that the caller wake up the sleeping church and hear that word repentance and bring it to the body and understand the times it was very freeing for me and enabled me to serve much better and and do what God called me to do, never using the title to the armor profit now think like that, but rather to recognize that aspect of ministry and calling you think that that say maybe like a Francis Schaeffer or Chuck close reading of a category for the these were prophetic voices to the church today could be that we were were we fall short when not properly equipped because we don't recognize prophetic people in our midst just cemented such an important foundational ministry not to switch topics only for a moment, but this is one of the reasons why the apostolic ministry is so important and we see that as well as profits you don't complaint against as nonexisting anymore. But these are the very ones that open everything up if you get right from the Scripture, like our Ephesians for passage. First Corinthians 12 Romans 12 and elsewhere either the passages from an apostolic point of view that open up the playing field for all the things that God is actually doing in the way she's endowing church so that it can all function so one of the casualties for sure has been this all-important prophetic ministry that gives the urgent messages within the church to Clint be cleansed of defilement to wake up as you said still carry particular mystery of mysteries revealed for the sake of understanding Israel's place they enforce the covenant as one book put calling people to remember. Look yes were saved by grace that we have responsibility. How can we function as the healthy church envisioned it. Scripture without prophetic ministry. But again even though there's been abuses in the acceptance of this ministry. Thank God there's much more latitude and that you know the recent decades. To be open to this ministry and to allow the function again in the church in the right name I cannot seeking title but to receive a prophet in the name of the prophet you receive a prophets reward near Bob in my new maneuver playing with holy fire.

I have one whole chapter on unaccountable prophecy one whole chapter on mercenary profits one whole chapter on abusive leadership one whole chapter on superstar leaders so I'm I'm hitting this from every angle. I don't terms of abuses and problems, but it's at the same time recognizing what God is doing an end that God continues to open up things in Scripture to us. God continues to restore or strengthen or build his church. What we have been an ongoing process for 2000 years of of growing in Jesus and and as we as we take hold of everything God has given us remedies or gifts everything goes and given us to come into the fullness of Jesus, then the church will be enriched and and it seems Bob that that God's doing a lot of this around the world.

Whether we put right names or titles on it that think offloading some three denominations in traditional settings but is also doing a lot of things in a much more organic way and and their movements of the church growing around the world with apostolic people helping pioneer, but again they are they are not the big shot. Everyone bows down to or claiming to have scriptural authority you I write Scripture and and be like the 12 rather these people are out there.

If we recognize and we better understand what the Spirit is doing a minimum that's that's my response. I couldn't improve on that party. Amen to that whole little ferment brother though. There's a bucket we just got a few minutes left and fellowship. If you want to know what I believe, a fivefold ministry is Bob and I've been talking these are things that that I believe that we believe that we sought to teach others and you can now examine and compare that to others teach and believe in an go-ahead. You can set think you're crazy. I think it's great or agree with some dispute whatever you understand things that were saying laying out what we believe and what we hold to, but of Bob.

There's a book that we've used it fire written by APOSTOLIC FOUNDATIONS WHICH IS PROBABLY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE. THE PEOPLE WEBINAR APPROACHES YOU COULD GET IN.

IN MANY WAYS. NO DISRESPECT. WHEN INGESTING DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES. HOW WOULD YOU SUMMARIZE WHAT TAUGHT AND THOSE THAT IN THAT BOOK. WOW, HOW DO YOU SOME BOOK THAT IS SOMETIMES EACH PARAGRAPH IS DEAD.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT READING FOR THE MOMENT, BUT NO, IT SOUNDS IRONIC, BUT ARE VERY IN A PENETRATING WAY ARTICULATES THE NEEDED REALITY OF APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF APOSTLES THEMSELVES, BUT HE DOES SO FROM A PROPHETIC POINT OF VIEW. SO HE'S CRAWLING FOR THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE CHURCH TO BE RESTORED, WHICH CAN ONLY COME TO APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, BUT THEN HE DOES SO WITH A VERY DEEP SPIRITUALITY BUT IT'S THIS CONSTANT CALLED OFTEN TO WHICH IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE PROPHETS BURDEN TO RESTORE THE COVENANTS AUTHENTICITY OF THE CHURCH, BUT HE CAN ONLY SEE THAT HAPPENING THROUGH APOSTOLIC MINISTRY, THOUGH HE HIMSELF WAS NOT AN APOSTLE, HE WAS CALLING FOR THAT FROM A PROPHETIC POINT OF VIEW WITH TREMENDOUS SPIRITUAL DEPTH THROUGHOUT THE PAGES OF THE BOOK IS AND AND HONESTLY I OVER THE YEARS WERE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BOOK AND THEN HEARD OR TEACH ON IT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I GET STALLED BECAUSE THE STUFF WAS WITH PRETENSE OF ART WAS OUT ONE OF THOSE. HERE'S THE CHART ON HOW IT WORKS HERE FOR EASY STEPS ON HOW TO APPLY THE CHURCH GROWTH BUT BUT ULTIMATELY THAT THE CENTRAL GOAL IN A AND I WANT TO END HERE, YOU'VE OFTEN EMPHASIZED THAT THE FOREMOST ROLE OF APOSTLES IN TERMS OF MAKING JESUS. DON'T JUST TAKE THIS LAST MINUTE TO FOCUS ON THAT. WELL, YOU KNOW, THE LAST CHAPTER OF ARTS BOOK EMPHASIZES THE MEEKNESS OF THE APOSTOLIC MINISTRY.

THIS MINISTRY HAVE THE GRACE TO FUNCTION WITH OUT AGENDA EXCEPT FOR GOD TO REVEAL CHRIST IN SUCH A WAY, OFTEN IN PLACES WHERE HE'S NOT BEEN HURT, BUT TO REVEAL HIM IN SUCH A WAY WERE NOT ONLY DOES A HARVEST OF DISCIPLESHIP, BUT FAMILIES ARE FORMED AS PART OF THE REVELATION OF CHRIST AND AS A DECLARATION THAT THE GOSPEL HAD THIS FULL SWAY NOT ONLY JUST A SOUL BUT TO CREATE A NEW KIND OF FAMILY WHERE JESUS SAID HE'LL KNOW YOU'RE MY DISCIPLE. IF YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER TO BE. THAT'S THE HEART AND SOUL OF APOSTOLIC MINISTRY TO CREATE SUCH CHURCHES WITH THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST REVEALED, I FRIENDS A LOT TO CHEW ON. BOB IS ALWAYS A DELIGHT SPEAKING WITH YOU AND HOPE YOU GET SOME OF THE WRITING. ONE OF THESE DAYS AS WELL. I'M WORKING ON IT. THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT WAS SUCH A PRIVILEGE TO BE WITH YOU. THE REAL JOY. ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FRIENDS TOMORROW THOROUGHLY THURSDAY… AS LONG AS REGULAR RADIO OUTLETS OR WATCH ON YOUTUBE OR FACEBOOK BACK THE LIFESTREAM TOMORROW