An Apostolic Leader Calls for Changes in the New Apostolic Reformation

Apostles today new apostolic Reformation one more time to separate fact and fiction stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of Ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, I have been able to piece some things together to get further insight. Some of the confusion today and even the hysteria regarding nor new apostolic Reformation and be joined by a friend that was just on with me recently who was a firsthand observer to the actual new apostolic Reformation was a lot to say about that. This is Michael Brown. I will take one last shot at this topic it comes up mainly from certain critical circles and most of the folks I travel with around the world know what I'm talking about when I bring this up, but with the goal of educating and equipping understanding, separating fact from fiction. Take a few more minutes to devote to the subject. I think a lot of things are going to fall into place. Or you today. If you have a question specifically related to apostolic ministry today or the so-called nor is the recall 866-34-TRUTH 87, 84, in the moment I'm to be 20 again by my friend Dr. Joseph Matera, who leads a US organization of court apostolic leaders. You can tell us in detail about the original nor new apostolic Reformation before I bring Dr. Matera on this is what got me wondering about these things.

I believe it was last year when Richard radio began advertising a DVD called drunk in the spirit and and they said this on their website. The world's fastest-growing sect of Christianity is not Christian at all unchristian and chances are very high that your child and church are getting infected. What limits of this, the new apostolic Reformation movement and the Jesus culture worship and boasts of 369 million adherents. And then this the new apostolic Reformation worships God drunk in the spirit they teach scant amounts of truth.

Christians do not need to be aware of each and every false teacher on the planet with the new apostolic Reformation is the most influential aberrant movement.

The church is absent. I heard an ad for this on the air. I thought what what in the world are they talking about what new apostolic Reformation so that Peter Wegner was involved with what's this thing allegedly 369 million adherents worldwide that studying Christian at all and those hysteria surrounding and that's when I began to see all these different groups leaders organizations were being put together under this alleged nor so. Three separate things under bring on Dr. Matera number one for decades I have believed that there apostles and prophets today along with the benches, pastors and teachers help the authority of a New Testament apostle like Paul or John not like an Old Testament prophet like Isaiah or Jeremiah but New Testament apostles and prophets us with scriptural evidence that really start working through history with the people and have a stylist that's one thing.

Second thing is Peter Wegner led a movement that was why that identifies new apostolic Reformation and I had differences with that was never part of that appreciated some of the different below the ports and now there's this other thing called nor were everything is put under this heading and that is what I say does not exist. This worldwide conspiratorial movement. So with that sort things out with someone is really an eyewitness to so much of this and who believes in apostolic ministry today and he believes the real new apostolic Reformation needs Reformation my friend Dr. Joe Matera Joe, thanks for coming right back on the show this year on just couple weeks ago talking about your new book the divided gospel.

What a joy to be with your personal hard work, credible scholarship goes along with the radio show that you have the on-again my joy.

All right, that the new apostolic Reformation as you were familiar with will deny this existence. Never have.

This is what were familiar with with Dr. Peter Wegner, one of the origins were your thoughts about what was your involvement, if any, with my overseer John Kelly was back in 1999 to gather 30 L of network independent Christian networks induce videos before the country. Singapore and the they met for three days just to compare notes and at the end of a few days date decided they should continue to meet and they called it the international coalition of apostle John H per year. I think it was. I could be wrong could be two years and then he fell like Peter Wegner had more national prominence.

Had he asked Peter deleted so Peter is this geologist/sociologist. He basically let it and as Peter always does. He gives terms that they and you want to call get a new apostolic Reformation and what he meant by that was that this was not a movement necessarily led by historic denominational leaders or denominations try to think of the new way of framing the fastest growing segment of global Christianity, which is led by visionary leaders of independent network three coined the phrase the new apostolic Reformation. There was no conspiratorial background.

There was no organization loosely affiliated people came people want no ordination to the tickets or anything. People just gathered once a year, but ultimately grew to about 350 people under Peter's guidance and the I didn't agree with some of the things that in the but the thing is, it was such a loose organization, there was diversity and eschatology somewhat dispensational premillennialism of post-millennial summer millennial some work classical prep millennial. Some were believe that the baptism the Holy Spirit had the evidence of speaking in tongues, others with third wave evangelicals like Peter who believed that arbiters baptized in the spirit didn't mean that you speak in tongues of your baptizing Mr. soap. There was such a divergence of of of people involved. It would've been next to impossible to have her sick so so even if we get back to the conspiracy parts of just understand this, we were use to Christian denominations so you have Presbyterian you have loose three and you have Southern Baptist you have Assemblies of God. These different denominations and that was much of the church worldwide and then you had something where you you might've had a visionary leader that started a church planting movement and then that grew like John Wimmer say in the Vineyard movement or something like that and in they didn't call themselves a denomination, yet they were rapidly growing and spreading and widely diverse so some Pentecostal, some charismatic, some other nuances of things, some house church so mega church. Some pretrip rapture some dominion us. But what was different about them was that they had these visionary kind of organic movement growth as opposed to just being part of a denomination.

Is that what Peter Wegner was trying to identify yes and that was actually 1995.

I think it was all or what he had a post-denominational symposium and he realized that a lot of the leaders and will movement globally not led by denomination. Now the people could being a denomination but he was actually saying this is post-denominational. Now I don't agree that the day is over for denominations. Neither did a lot of people are lucky, stop using the term post-denominational and he started using the term apostolic Reformation buddies just talking about how were not limited to territorial denominational historical landmark that existed. The pastor several hundred years. So that was the name that he put on it and then it became maybe more narrowly associated with being part of Peter Wegner's organization or movement and from what I could tell, it then seems to me that anyone today who believes in fivefold ministry or who was part of Peter Wegner's organization that somehow everybody gets grouped under this heading of, nor even if they never heard of it or knew it was an and that this is this nefarious aberrant movement spread around the world and that's why it's so difficult to deal with this because, for example, one website says if you want to try to identify nor church will see if they have 24 seven prayer six.

Since 1 to 24 seven prayer could new apostolic Reformation so II want to read the Scripture to you and get your reaction okay this is from. I think it's the Breanne examiner website and it says it's is this the new apostolic Reformation, or, nor is a counterfeit un-biblical movement that is McGraw gaining worldwide momentum it's anointed celebrity leaders. Meanwhile or or scurrying to distance themselves from the nor label that if I nor fantasy Peter Wegner's mission of discernment. Reporters have been shot. In light of Scripture and the sheep have begun to take notice right so first thing your response to that I might this be candidate since you bunch of websites with critics that were attacking me and you at you. You never heard of these folks so as far as you know are people scurrying because of the so-called discernment reporters well I hope it will my name right. I've never heard people would.

I don't know what kind of influence they have. But I'm not coming across much criticism at all. I know it's out there, but what I'm spinning is the opposite on scene evangelicals embracing the fivefold ministry. I'm seeing the mission of church movement begin to use the language of apostolic is prophetic their expanding because they realize that if we are limited to a twofold ministry. The Jesus movement is going to be static, but if we embrace the fivefold ministry we are having movement to have the great expansion of Christianity likely stored the New Testament pattern and the wind is due to be blurred more more more like it is presently depleting the joke charismatic direct line between apostolic individual is to be so blurred. Five or 10 years that I can know who the NAR is 70 so we have mainstream evangelicals, people who identify with Masson people are Dennis five the evangelical groups with global groups in the world who are now using the term apostolic the way we do.

We don't use it as an office. We use it as an adjective always recall the apostle Paul called apostle. We don't call it an office we study an adjective. It's a function description of the ministry. So we get away from the classical hierarchical in the traditionalism of the word apostle when we say apostolic and prophetic. I think that's safer and I think you that we avoid some of the errors that place in the past by some leaders. Novel got it right.

This will become backward and I keep unpacking this. Remember Dr. Matera as a pastor for decades in Brooklyn. He works with denominational leaders in New York City and around the world. So not talking about some exclusive club just run identify what God is doing and then separate math facts comes to the so-called nor the right to file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown thing or practice thousand 11 Peter Wegner wrote the roots of the nor apostolic Reformation go back to the beginning of the African independent church movement in 1900, the Chinese house church movement beginning in 1976 US independent charismatic movement beginning in the 70s and the Latin American grassroots church will begin around the same time. He said I was neither the founder or member of any of these movements of simply professor who observed that that there were the fastest growing churches in the respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics. That's what he called the new apostolic Reformation, which again bears very little resemblance to what the critics are attacking as, nor give you list everybody including that in a moment.

So Peter Wegner's discussing with Dr. Matera is discussing is what God is doing around the world not rejecting denominations not moving just outside denominations, but moving in a way that is more organic and even has more potential of churchwide unity in different cities and nations is that the body comes get on some fall sick medical movement recognize what God is doing and people like heart and mind working together and the greatest is the servant of all, not the boss or the Lord over others so that's how the term is used broadly and then Peter Wegner very much became associated with his writings on this in certain teaching.

He gave apostles in the marketplace and it seemed like every pastor's close as an apostle. Things like that. Both no court apostolate networks. That's when I knew then as new apostolic Reformation and then Dr. Matera has been writing about where that leads Reformation so there's what Dr. Wegner described this generic worldwide thing that God was doing thoroughly Orthodox in its biblical foundations, then there was a more narrow movement that he was leading specifically that had more specific parameters. Then there is what the critics refer to our right and that's what I keep debunking with the critics refer to and he says to get my new book, playing with holy fire ideal with abuses in the term apostle and and and apostle by acquisition you I just take over others and I become this bigshot apostle or put my name on the card. Apostle Michael Brown nonsense like that okay for me to be nonsense so I talk about that and if you have an issue with one church.

You're one church it very happy to Tobit specific abuses. I have several chapters on abusive leaders and abusive and prophetic ministry.

I'm happy to have abuses just don't put it under this home mythical headline together.

So getting back to to Dr. Matera, Joe Ewart, you have been a local pastor, your church in Brooklyn continues you 100% support local leaders and you know that the local church is the nucleus of what what God does in every community, but when you tell a twofold ministry, pastor, teacher, pastor, evangelist, and you say that the church won't be what it's supposed to be without apostolic, prophetic ministry. What is that look like, how does it work itself out pastoral role world make. Care preservation protection, but God gave the apostolic and prophetic ministry of the system for screening. Chapter 28, said first of the church.

Apostle secondarily prophets both are more the pioneers over the want to expand the territory kingdom influence goes with the want to plant churches then who began to preach in such a way that it is those who turn the world upside down or come here an extra 17. They're the ones who showed in acts chapter 19 Paul planted church in Ephesus to the word of the Lord went out to all of Asia and vented change to challenge the economic values of the holes even records the right because they wouldn't buy the idols anymore that they weren't able to pervade their fault God anymore, because the gospel permeates culture so the apostolic leaders are the one who basically can influence the city or community, and again of plant churches and all that kind of thing, but they leave in their place when they leave the church they pastors they put elders people who really care for the flock. So it's never to overthrow the pastoral ministry stockholder to help them support them is to protect them is to be a pastor to pastor that's good enough leader is nobody's people. Critics of, nor are don't stay with the thought of what they believe it possible to try and overthrow pastoral leaders now has that happened maybe it has.

I don't know one of the tricks of the people who were opponents of particular movement travelers. They identifiable movement by radical yeah but the proponents that I work with of apostolic ministry, both even joke (would never in a million you think about overthrowing craft where where we held a local church curve everyday dollars that the we want to help that we want. We want to support the want to be reached. Most of them and that's who we are, networks just sit this one thing to everyone listening and watching II get links sent to me of different critics websites, twitter feed, things like that that I will personally get I get them sent to me sometimes on a daily basis where that the latest show was being attacked and critique. So I am glassy cricket listener. I generally am listening, watching, if we differ we differ. But I'm glad at least or listening, watching, but when I call it when I call in and say this who I am is my website on the police because it attacks all the time difference with you rethink your you really are only a store or lying to people calling okay you post comments on YouTube. Call me a liar call in by all means I will. I'm glad you're listening. I'm truly glad you're listening, watching, but call and if you're listening, watching live 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 7884 so let let's ask this, we understand that critically important role of the shepherds.

Every elder needs to be a shepherd of some kind overseen the flock, but there is pressure that can be put on pastors that's that's not the right pressure. Some call it solo Pastore that is just the past in the past has to do everything, and if the pastors that shaking the city while nurturing the flock. If the past is not spreading out new works will care for the flock. The past is not doing the right thing, but pastors are called family be shepherds right. There is also there are other the people I go and as your Santa trailblazers the pioneers doesn't this then take pressure off the local church to say hey you. Be who you are in shepherd and nurture the flock and strengthen it. But the church to the work of evangelism with the pioneers in the prophetic voices do with their call to do what you absolutely tried you reframe that if the Lord called as an apostolic leader and they try to act as a pastor and they find you no job description of just visiting the suspected, making no counseling appointments and just preaching and staying in one church rest of their life.

They may feel constrained, and so if we embrace the fivefold ministry we make room for the pioneering out those same time we take pressure off the past will be impressed with the babies, entrepreneurs and pioneers and we all work together and support each other and we have a first Corinthians 12, kind of mosaic where the hand can say to the foot. I don't need you. We all work together as members of the body of Christ and where things have gone say with denominations.

John Wesley was clearly in an apostolic man and then you had some of the early founders of Methodism in America were clearly apostolic leaders. It is there a point where something that was organic and reproductive can become top-heavy or to structural this can have with any group any move on the throne stones but I'm just asking is, is there something where something starts in an apostolic way, the way you're describing it, which is how most denominations really started, and then something's comes in where it stagnates you gets to structured this and often happen.

Usually the first generation visionary generation pioneering expanding generation. Usually the second or third generation people look for an administrative leader to perpetuate what was already accomplished and to maintain it but often convoluted relevancy and become static, but to ensure that that doesn't happen. If we recognize fivefold ministry embraced it. We would pick apostolic visionary leaders to continue to lead these huge movements or network and that will ensure that it was continuing to expand and be on the cutting edge what God is doing and saying in your you bring up a good point about will be denominations. They all started off as organic apostolic movement and if they were around today, they would be considered under the rubric of NAR and criticized as well. John Wesley would be criticized in so many of the great virtual leaders and fathers of history be criticized because of the way they started with very alert to what with the date on in a global license. Some of the domination of leaders if they were still leaving in and hopefully some of the more but if they were still leaving in this apostolic visionary planting, expanding way then it this would be exactly what you time and there was a can have a denominational name or not. That's not the issue. The issue is how is it functioning.

Yeah, in my book on apostolic leadership that used a lot lecture on this stuff not talk about the cycles and the spike of losing a visionary leader than a comes maintenance that it becomes institutionalized and then it needs to be redefined and and actually you know but fire in it again. You know, and so what I talked apostolic leaders about his bill put down denominations because you're just in the first part of the cyclical pattern and if you're network continues will probably want to be in a denominational bubblewrap does not criticize domination of the cyclical norm and insured is this really you know, we can ensure this, but aim for revival and revitalization in every new generation of leaders that would raise up our fight by having the proper patent rights. Some friends if you want to know what I believe that's what I believe with Dr. Matera's describing that's what I believe that's what I'm Florida okay callout what you want to call it. That's one part of find any of that heretical God's word is I say something that he's doing in his bag over just getting started. Stay with us and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thank you much for joining us today. Friends had a few wonderful days in Toronto think part of our live broadcast. Toronto back home yesterday. Got home kiss my bride talk kiss my bride left today. Yeah and out flying out to Dallas ministry one of our grants has a school of evangelism will be speaking for them globally to more communally live from Dallas tomorrow, but everyone in the DFW area. If you're free Wednesday night so May 2, Wednesday night got excuse me gospel lighthouse church on Illinois Ave. in Dallas, TX gospel lighthouse church. Check out the itinerary on the website Esther Cooper NAS K DR Brown dog Ward so a quick review for you around the world for decades God has been moving and dynamic ways in many different circles.

Charismatic Pentecostal others that would identify in that way with church planting movements with house church movements. Some under persecution that could not be part of a denomination because it was not legal to be others because they were disbursed outside of denominations.

Some within denominations Peter Wegner Dr. Peter Wegner is a professor dubbed this the new apostolic Reformation is broad-based in the participants withhold to the fundamentals of the gospel is reflected in the apostles Creed of Nicene Creed and things like that the widely diverse Dr. Wegner himself led a loose coalition of apostolic leaders and wrote much on this and when I heard the term new apostolic Reformation.

That's what I understood to be.

I was just talking to a colleague in Toronto.

A leader that was there and asked him when you hear Nora new apostolic Reformation what you think he is always a good attempt supporting many symbols Peter Wegner.

We try to do certain things, but I was never part of it because I differed with XYZ. I said not aware of this worldwide thing called gnawing the snow I said you know your leader because what he taught himself so that's how I've known it.

This specific thing will and then there is fivefold ministry that I believed in Dr. Matera my guest today has as a book on at essays on apostolic ministry that really gives you an understanding of what we mean by this. I had my colleague Dr. Bob Gladstone on with me a few days ago and we talked about this what we mean by fivefold ministry. It has nothing to do with taking over. It has nothing to do with lording it over others.

It has zero to do with the idea that you have the super anointing and are equal to the 12 apostles, utter nonsense. I've never met a leader apostolic leader today who believes that about themselves right with many things we do believe in terms of pioneering fathering church planting certain leaders the kind of recognizing your city is like the spiritual father the city and all the different pastors and leaders look to them is often apostolic type leaders.

That's what we believe and so were trying to separate this from this mystical thing called nor and and I want to get this take from Dr. Matera or read a description to you sir. Tell me, tell me your reaction to this. This is an alleged descriptor. This is a description of the alleged nor on the green examiner website says says this supernatural signs and wonders. Dominion is the latter rain movement. Joel's arm the seven mount mandate. Third wave revivalism IHOP Bill Johnson's Bethel church Hill song media empire. These are all a part of the shape shifting movement in one way or another. It is gobbling up churches and deceiving millions who don't even know they become part of an apostate and times falling away as as a theologian and is a careful theological teacher.

What's your take on that statement well I made it definitely diverse group lumped together again, and I'm not in agreement with some of those groups mentioned by the appointed some summer practices not old but the point is, I think that these are people driven by fear there created their own bogeyman and I don't think anybody should be afraid of true apostolic, prophetic leaders that God has ordained.

According to Ephesians 4 to continue until there is unity in the faith and complete knowledge and oldest of the son of God, which hasn't happened yet still there against apostolic leadership for fighting against God himself wasn't just the 12 apostles like it was 70 apostles mentioned in the New Testament.

Out of respect for the 12. The early church stop calling them apostles will have to be original 12 passed away. He started using the word bishop instead that's been involved you that nobody claims to be equal to the original 12 and/or Paul or any of the writers rupture and you know lumping all those movements together again.

I am not even fully aware of what a lot of them do. I don't think of ever heard Bill Johnson preach a message never went to IHOP but the idea that having 24 seven prayer is a bad thing.

I mean Sonia for data which are chapter 24 seven prayer you know I would love that.

Would lumping together would Zinzendorf and the Moravian movement had a prayer meeting didn't stop Roger years, which became here just for the mod missionary movement. Protestantism, though Sonia put out affected happened here yet again. Want one website of one critic says if you try to identify in our church see if it has 24 seven prayer and you know when you mentioned that the bogeyman kind of thing.

It reminds me of global warming. Everything is global warming. Everything we do is global warming were all part of this plot to destroy the whole earth. The what what are you talking about.

So again we all deal with abuses and no one differs with the fact that their abuses their abuses and charismatic churches, their abuses and on charismatic churches, their abuses, the house church movements their abuses in mega church movements.

We all deal with the meat we, you and I constantly write correct BBQ you've written some of the strong stuff.

In fact, Prince go to Dr. Matera's website Joseph Matera M ATT ERA.

Joseph Matera is a.com or.org.org and I have report article in our yard. The restoration of apostolic ministry. I think very pertinent to this discussion, got it. Got it right. So Joseph Matera.com go there. I went down worked out harsh with my website all the time and number radii.

So listen I want to shout this out loudly for decades I have said I believe in apostolic ministry for decades. I gladly say that I work with Mike Bickel that I work with Joseph Matera that I work with you but no shame in that joyful glad to say it all right. I believe in fivefold ministry. No argument with that. And yet, what were saying is this alleged northing for example Hill song Hill song I think is Assemblies of God in prime Houston leave the Estrella Assemblies of God sums got put out a position paper saying that there are no apostles and prophets say but apostolic and prophetic people. Assemblies of God is is not quote part of nor yet Hill song is Assemblies of God and were told Hill song is nice if you like Hill song music you're part of the it's his bogeyman think that's what were refuting so if someone wants to say. Well I have a problem with what Hill song features final discuss that. I got no formal association with them forming discuss it. I class I heard Mike Bickel time eschatology of a question.

Great.

We can discuss it.

Just don't put everything under this bogeyman heading north. That's what were saying. There is no lack of clarity or no denial of it is nothing to deny. I gladly hold these positions. I've got nothing to do that out of debate them scripturally, as will Dr. Matera so that that's talk about one other pinpointing and then I want to get into some of your article. Dominion is or post millennialism or those one and the same. What you agree with and that when you differ with the post millennialism so you have differences among themselves.

But in terms of diminutive people argue the term Dominion covenant, but the good thing is not sure exactly what he meant by that. But in Genesis 128 got to have dominion over the fish of the seabirds of the air, and over every creeping thing that was before people populated beer though it was never dominion over people.

It was dominion over the created order so I don't use that terminology. Now I don't use the terminology taking your cities over that stuff. Which by the way was first the phrase taking your study was from a book by John Dawson Paul Jensen menu.

This history of God which she persistently meeting reach all cities permeated with the gospel. So again with those of taking your study. I don't know what they mean.

They could be just evangelizing a bill prayer walks or change in the atmosphere so is just so much diversity in all these words that we have to define the terms parcel what I mean by Genesis 128. The cultural mandate is influence Jesus washed the feet of his disciples said the same way, a washer feature nor wash one another's feet soak the New Testament equivalent to the dominion mandate is to influence by servant leadership. When you have the best solutions when you love your study, the most when you practically serve them as local churches and Christians than people will want you to leave them and/or people will benefit in don't bring your whole community, up to another level whose preaching a dominion kingdom. Now we were supposed to take over. Maybe what they mean is they they think we are saying the national church is supposed to have political rule over nation. I don't know one person who believes in conditional church and rule the nation. I don't know one person who believes that every nation to be Christianized. I don't know one person who believes that everybody in America or in the world to be saved. One day, so I'm not even sure what they mean by diminutive but will most criminal realizes that the original founders of United rates for Jordan post millennialist and it was their understanding that they were called to reflect God's kingdom.God's jurisdiction on earth as it is in heaven, which became the impetus after a few hundred years of the Reformation preaching and teaching of the original documents of the United States, hardly anything evil and that I don't think I mean to have you and Jonathan Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan Edwards thought that with great revival they could week we could enter the millennium that the church would would spread so much and so many people would come to faith in the society become so Christian it would usher in the millennium.

You know, I think some people may lump us together with the economists or those who want to see a theocracy so of the anonymous. Maybe Gary north door or rush during the who would say that the goal is to enforce biblical law over nation and in that a theocracy would be where spiritual leaders of the priests are or or popes or whoever would would run the nation just like you have a theocracy in Iran with the ayatollahs running that nation, but that is something that we all categorically fight against there be a disaster if the church tries to take over the society and enforce Christian principles on the world may weep for what happened after Konstantin got converted. The church was from a movement to use an admin when the church tried to rule the nations that was a disaster. Yet this is the thing, but I think the ethics of the nation have to get myself back to that comeback will come right back to get a break.

How can we have positive influence without front of the nation.

It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 66343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I believe in apostolic that have that case this based on rest of the Scripture saying that is see how God used apostolic and people in history and in saw them in our midst was okay. This is not just the pastor of answers to some of the different calling. Here's how it all works together. I guess Dr. Joseph Matera has done some great writing and teaching on this as a spiritual father is an elder similar pastorate in Brooklyn for decades and work with churchwide movements in the city, and he currently leads US coalition of apostolic leaders. This was an organization once associated with Dr. Wegner but but Joe before you took this over agreed to take it over. You assisted on the name being change from coalition of apostles to coalition of apostolic leaders. Is that correct absolutely animal was the reason for that because I work across the board would many evangelical leaders and even Pentecostal denomination like somebody. God took me a half-hour to qualify what I mean by apostle.

So it was onerous to me wouldn't have helped and I would refuse to lead an organization with that name.

Our users as an adjective nonoffice alright so in the early days I had people come up to me when I first started hearing about new apostolic Reformation Dr. Wegner.

I people, cannot blaming him for this but they want to sign me up to be part of their network and I call that apostle by acquisition and I thought a planter whose multiplying working people are drawn to. And that's one thing, but I don't expand my apostolic portfolio by bringing people in, but when when used apostolic leaders if it can knock down a lot of the misconceptions basically collegiality or co-collegiality. Nobody has started over anybody else. There are no super apostles.

There is no time is no credentialing. There's no ordination. It's basically an association will we get into touch interface exchange information be inspired to one another and maybe some of us develop close covenantal relationship grew even deeper things together but that's over this yet and I've been on some of the conference calls and just all invited constantly and am a member of only been to a couple of the meetings, but it's been great and very inspirational here with God's doing three different people being challenged and such a diversity of viewpoints, but again just to collegiality everyone serving one another. So for folks looking for more like oh this is like the equipment of the protocols of the elders assigned in the cabal of 300 Jewish leaders of these are 300 apostolic leaders poised to take over the world is just myths and fantasies of the critics, but it is a way to generate fear and unfortunately for some, for some generate funds. So before I come back to the 10 Commandments in society today. You've written a couple of very pertinent articles. That's why I assume we should get back on the air and talk about this friends go to Joseph Matera.org MAT TER eight.org but some of where you felt the quote new apostolic Reformation as it was being understood needed some reforming just mention a couple of key points that folks can find in your articles. There was something in meetings that would would be reported, they would go to a study in proclaim somebody's in apostle over a study over nation. There was some autocratic leadership by a few of there was people who call themselves apostles with the office. There were those who call themselves apostles at hardly any ministry behind them.

You know, just various odd things that most of the members would not agree with and/or adhere to. But again, critics will always try to look at the radical fringe categorize all movement that way. So many of us were not comfortable with some of the leaders not most of them that were involved in some practices, such as those that might've been more of practices and and and gear triumphalist rhetoric like where to crystal to take the city you know I got up and corrected that once an iCal gathering in people stop using that term when I explained why.

Genesis 128 as Dominion before the people we don't yet have that now so I think they stop using that term maybe because what I said maybe their own research, but you know it's give-and-take and online shopping sign when you first start involved in a new movement you make some mistakes and their role in just a mistake with people love the Lord wanted good things in role helping each other evolve into a better place and more biblical place right so again no one is denying that there has been something called the new apostolic Reformation that had certain beliefs, values that did certain good that had certain abuses. No one is denying that no one is stepping back from believing in fivefold ministry. In fact, we are pushing that we aren't encouraging that my friend Prof. Craig Keener, one of the most respected New Testament scholars in the world for started blogging about this is written about it before either apostles today. You can go to his website which is Craig Keener.com is got a couple articles. 1/3 were to come on either apostles today is answers yes he believes in it that we are we are advocating that we are agreeing with that receipts good and healthy in its riches, recognizing what God is doing, but please your doctor Matera saying repeatedly when autonomous of the hierarchical take over super apostles. These laws, you have to have an apostle of no one say that we talk about recognizing how God works pioneering church planting fathering movements things like that and then what were saying is the bogeyman created by the critics is to put all different things happening at Pentecostal charismatic churches and those that believe in fivefold ministry taking whatever abuses there are questionable things grouping them altogether: at Norton. That is what were saying doesn't exist. So Joe, I agree with you that to the extent a nation can live by the 10 Commandments it will be blessed that these are ways of life that God has given, but how do we termination the direction America has a lot of this in its foundations without trying to take over workforce. This you know we've been aforesaid of the whole nation to keep the Sabbath with penalties if they don't know. For example, it's one of the 10 Commandments, and we build a culture where were it's it is the church serving as opposed to the church ruling will biblically where we look at a Republican form of government. Every part arming the Republican Party, but right governed by representation elders. America's basically Republican democratic republic but it's a democratic system of boat so that combines both and the be very hard for one church of the takeover anyway with the system we have, but basically I think the people who have the best ideas. People who do most committed to their goal and to their God are going to be the one you have the most influence than the ones you serve and love their cities love the most influence and I believe that the 10 Commandments were given not just for an individual moral code, but it was given to disciple nation order frame of the loyalty of the finished presupposition of the nation, and I think that if we reflected the 10 Commandments in our nation, especially the last half of it on how to deal with human beings starting with honoring a father, mother if we would reflect that are no laws, we would be better country, but we can't do that unless we have the best ideas unless we have the best leaders that could influence systems, and unless the church does its job of making true disciples and loving the community people would even trust Christians to be given that kind of influence of power becomes Christlike. People trust us more because they know I would not try to force anything when I try to make you a believer were not try to hurt you know we were here because we love you and we want to help you and then people see how we live and they think while that's that's a better way to live your families are healthier understand it's a better life giving and then if if a Christian gets elected to office in their pro-life Christian or Christian gets elected to their school board or Christian is the librarian of the local high school or a Christian, is the guidance counselor in the high school. Then I Christian hopefully can be a good example and and and put for their values and people say hey we agree with you that's what were talking, my friends, if you find that heretical or threatening. So if you looking for bone to pick it your creating a fight with doesn't exist.

I listen Matt for Minneapolis just called in couple minutes ago when the been the conversation sir, I understand you got some critical views. If you recall, in the beginning of the show tomorrow I will do my best to take your call. Towards the beginning of the show Matt right there's no sense bringing you on for 30 seconds having to cut you off and then not being able to respond but if you'd like to continue the conversation with the caller format. I will put you at the head of the list and Howard are call screener will take note of that and in general again. We live in a world where we try to reach everyone, and it happens that in my world because among radio I deal with culturally she's my latest article.

Other something funny about abortion seems be going viral. Today from should read that share it. Some dealing with cultural issues dealing with Jewish apologetics, biblical scholarship, so I have a lot of folks that follow her work than I charismatic and Pentecostal and that are scared by this whole North saying this alleged movement quickly Richard radio. It's not Christian at all.

That's influencing 369 million people and apostasy. So for the sake of many listening and following that that don't understand is, things are different. I'm trying it take time to set the record straight, but we understand that those that don't.

We were saved. Some of flipped out the recipe the wags with what is with the Lord. Someone else attacked me for saying Billy Graham's gone to be with his with the Lord are forcing Mike Nichols save some people flip out over these things so what can we say we can help everyone. We do our best but no thank you for taking a full hour with us. The website Joseph Matera MA ER a solenoid. Thanks so much Joe for joining us today so is pleasure & I