The Immoral Majority?

As the evangelical church of America become the immoral majority as my guest today says it's time for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us on the line for 7884. I was excited to learn old just shortly before the show today that I am going to be joined by author Ben how his book hot off the press and best-selling immediately. The immoral majority why evangelicals chose political power over Christian values. He will be joining me at the bottom of the hour so you have a very interesting conversation and I think it's can be edifying, helpful, challenging the first we got a bunch of other issues to discuss and I may I make can't promise, but I may have time to take some questions, 866-3487 84 that's 866-348-7884 is the number to call. Okay, a Pres. Trump and Israel.

I just typed in the words Trump and Jews can be more broad than that. And of course a flood of headlines here is on Fox Donald Trump quote king of Israel and the fragile state of American Jewry, New York Times, Trump again accuses American Jews of disloyalty two hours ago 23 minutes will have Fox is defending Trump's allegation that Jewish voters are showing great this loyalty. BBC News Trump accuses Jewish Democrats of great disloyalty. I mean this is Mrs. everywhere Al Jazeera.com yes a Middle East Arabic based and now he was speaking as well. Jews tweaked disloyal to Trump after Trump calls them disloyal. Okay what the world is going on. Pres. Trump and Israel obviously taking flak for Trump discouraging Israel from letting representatives Johan Omar and she did sleep coming to Israel last week saying no to that and and then Israel's decision in that so a lot of flack against the present lot of flack against Israel and Trump's is calling out Democrats calling out American Jews who overwhelmingly voted Democrat let this just broad figures. Broad figures say in the last elections last several election cycles, probably roughly speaking, American Jews have voted 80% Democrat.

African-Americans devoted 90% Democrat suit you got to large groups of people were influential groups of people who are voting very heavily Democrat and of course white evangelicals overwhelmingly Republican right, 80, 81% Republican in the last election. So you got these demographics were different groups leaning heavily in one direction or another, and a lot of evangelical Christians can understand the votes of of American Jews is it what you voting like this. The Republican Party is much more Israel friendly and much more pro-Israel than the Democratic Party and we see now some real cracks surreal features surreal holes in the dam in terms of Democrat standing with Israel. We know a few years back in the Democratic Party platform there was an attempt to remove reference to Jerusalem. Reference to God I mean is clear which direction this was going in the Republican platform pro God pro-Israel profamily very different so what evangelical Christians look to the Jewish people and say in America.

What evil whatsoever over only Democrat at an end.

The Republican Party's is much more a loyal friend, a faithful friend to Israel and standing with Israel and and and Bush and and then Trump have been much better friends of Israel, and Obama was and how can you both weevil and North American Jews turn around and say first, the Democratic Party reflects our values. The vast majority of Americans use every liberal and they are on the opposite side of social justice issues as compared to evangelicals right both white and black evangelicals and Hispanic evangelicals their pro-abortion woman's right to choose their their pro-homosexual rights. Hey this is a persecuted minority were there discriminated against.

They see things through very very different eyes and and those values are important for some of the religious things is a prophetic tradition of standing with your press to the beat down and so on and standing for women and minorities and that it somehow becomes pro-abortion for LGBT activists and some of it's just plain worldly's American Jews. Subpart a worldly like anybody else in and having cloud influence and using it long waits, but most American Jews do not have the same view of the modern state of Israel evangelical Christians to they believe in the modern state of Israel. They are pro-Israel, especially after the Holocaust. I believe Israel should have a homeland but because they are not religious Jews because they are not biblically based in their faith. They are not, they aren't they are not looking at this so much as fulfillment of prophecy. They are not saying God with the Jewish people back to the land and is by divine right that the Jewish people back in the land and in many leaning left have great sympathies with the Palestinians and and there should be sympathies for anyone it's been treated unjustly and Israel is far from perfect. We understand that and say that as an evangelical as a messianic Jew but the point of the matter is this that evangelical Christians will stand with Israel much more than your average American Jew. So Donald Trump looks at this that it's outrageous is being called anti-Semitic presents for Jewish people again. His daughter converted to Judaism's son-in-law is an Orthodox Jew, a modern Orthodox. His grandkids are there for Jewish under Jewish law and even in my most passionate Trump opposing days during the primaries, I wrote an article saying it includes an anti-Semite and obviously he is stood with Israel in many ways that significant things for Israel move the embassy to Jerusalem and recognize the goal on heights and pushback against the around the in many ways prove himself to be a real friend of Israel and the Jewish people. Something was anti-Semitic for him to say what he said but again to me when Pres. Trump says these kinds of things like Jews who don't vote for him are either extremely ignorant or disloyal. I was a disloyalty to Israel all all that this creates more problems it.

It is one of those things with the president of a few steps forward in a few steps backwards that you inflame so much passionate intense emotion and hatred. You can hardly look at the issues and in my view, when the polarizing more than rallying people behind the common cause you when the polarizing but unnecessarily listen, I am happy if it pleases God to be the most polarizing person on the planet or in my neighborhood. If by following Jesus and holding to biblical principles unpolarized Soviet you be a polarizing figure if that's what loving God loving your neighbor means walk in obedience to the truth so be it. But there's a polarizing that is unnecessary. That's probably was happy or so from Pres. Trump's perspective. Here's what he's thinking. I'm standing with Israel.

I'm a friend of Israel. I'm pushing back against these Islamic terroristic existential threats against Israel and the Jewish people and and Prime Minister Netanyahu and iron are lockstep and similar things were standing together on that for Jewish person to not be pro-Tromp, you either have to be disloyal. Israel works really ignorant. Obviously it's an insult is had worse insults than that. Okay, but Jewish people would look at that thing you lost your mind. First, were not blindly loyal Israel. They say secondly we oppose all these policies yours and I'm sure that their views on immigration, then Trump, etc. that was just a slam and an insult. There's that we don't like you don't close ignorant and and don't think that we disloyal Israel will like you. Well Tromp then responds and sings. Basically he's a super popular in the Israel and he's looked at his quote the King of Israel saw people thing up King of Israel and of second coming of God. Now, when I was in Israel couple times since Trump's been president. I was struck by the prodrug sentiment in the Pro Trump science. I had one cabdriver who was totally anti-Trump and he said there are two people to people voting for Donald Trump is a who's that I said at the geezer's daughter and and prudent and I switch at that from those I listen to the news. Also but also turn I can bring it up. People brought up Trump to meet they want to talk about Trump make America great.

Make Israel great. They thought Trump was terrific and they had very negative feelings are on Obama. They better feelings about Bush, this time about man on the street type of things and I think that's what surveys will bear out and Israelis terms of a voting block on social issues. They are very liberal. Okay, but on on the issues of security and things like that. They tend to be very conservative because with a live with. So those issues are great importance to them in Israel than to your average American Jew, but I don't think it helps the cause for president Tromp to say he has looked at is the king of Israel the second coming of of God was a help who who does that enlist in your cause. How does that advance what you're trying to do so I would say yes. Pres. Trump you been an amazing friend of his.

Yes, you had the guts to do what no one is done. Bill Clinton did move the embassy. George W Bush did move the embassy Barack Obama didn't move the embassy Donald Trump of the embassy and Pres. Trump you've pushback against the disastrous Toronto and finally officially recognize go on heights and and you're not afraid to talk about radical Islam been a friend of Israel.

You been a friend of a Prime Minister Netanyahu. I appreciate all that.

But don't further alienate American Jews by insulting them. Why not appeal what I say look, what can I do to get your trust. I know we don't see.

I dine a lot of things, but I'm a friend of Israel. I'm a friend of the Jewish people as Jewish blood right right here in my own family.

Now, so let's stand together for the common good and you're not going encourage and and and get the support and backing of evangelicals missing the look of his like the king of Israel second coming of God, those of the unfortunate things that Pres. takes a few steps forward and shoots himself in the foot suppressing Trump praying for you to understand to be a friend of Israel, a friend of the church.

But the God would give you a wisdom that would be mind blowing, that would be for the good of the nation and the world will be right back where we will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear again Dr. Michael Brown every morning and how the immoral majority white evangelicals chose political power over Christian values. I haven't finished reduplication exit board and eCopy before we got it from the publisher to have been on the show so that's how much I was interested in the subject so much of what I've written the read so far.

Like I agree I agree that the parts I disagree. So I'm really looking forward to having this important discussion with Ben.

Hey, if you live anywhere near Austin, Texas because she mentions the second half of the broadcasted blankets that part of the nation. The Dallas-Fort Worth Austin in any way you live anywhere near Austin, Texas.

Every ministry there this Sunday morning only Sunday morning so check the itinerary and Esther to Brown.org and then next weekend is an amazing together for Israel conference being held in Pensacola, Florida. All right it starts I believe August 30 Friday night. Then I'll be speaking Saturday day and night continues into Sunday. Registration is free, but you are requested to sign up. So go to my website Esther to Brown double-click itinerary and then just click on the conference together for Israel. I'd love to see you there and then just stand them in Pensacola is couple days after that is a massive like the fire again conference with basin into receipts. I think 10,000 over 20,000 registered something like that so should be an incredible time as we cry out to God for fresh wave of revival, 866342 is the number to call. With that regularly phones Bob in Tennessee walking to the line of fire] dark brown mortal fire escalator luxury.

I don't like the calendars and limited atonement for a lot of reasons. I believe in the story of God which is Ephesians 345. Another version is also the free will of man, in Romans 1013 and so forth to confirm brought discernment versus Onyx.I believe both are true even though the storm/oxymoron. There is no oxymoron regard to James why would call that monism which I don't know what you want to call Mark.

My question is this hourly Calvinist who believes in limited atonement answer. Second Peter chapter 3 verse nine elevator saying to reasons why you are Jesus encumbered number 18 account time as we do number two waiting each day for more people to come to him. I've started and Cheryl, can you explain it to me yes or a thank you for the great questions will decide that them the Molinos machine totally, but for those who don't follow Bob's question Calvinist believe in him what's called limited atonement or definite atonement, meaning that Jesus did not die to make salvation possible for the whole world, but rather died specifically to save those that the father set his love on, and those that Jesus died for. He purchased their salvation and they will be saved and they will forever serve him what I hold to is that Jesus died on the cross to make salvation possible for all men, so God could declare to the world all your sins are paid for right an extraordinary act of God's love and to infallibly secure the salvation of those who put their trust in Jesus, so it's in the Calvinistic scheme.

The L in the word tulip limited atonement so how do Calvinists respond to second Peter 39 now when I was a Calvinist, 77 to 82. This was my response. And this is a common Calvinist response so it says in second Peter 39 the Lord is not slack toward us as some men count slackness, but is is long-suffering so was in the text is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So I agree with you Bob that the most natural way to read that is that God is extend the opportunity to all to come to repentance and hence waiting before he returns the Calvinist response would be. This note, God is long-suffering toward us who the elect waiting for all of us to repent. So when the full number of the elect comes in. Then Jesus will return that would be the Calvinist response just like the Calvinist response to first Timothy 2124 that we pray for kings rules authorities etc. for its it's God's will that all be saved.

Calvinist would say that means all classes kings rules bids us all kinds of people in my soon you put all the evidence together, it indicates God's desire.

His love is for every human being on the planet to be saved, and he will save those who put their trust in his son. So whether you like the response that that would be the Calvinist answer to that. He's pleased long-suffering toward us that when the any of us should perish, but waiting until all of us come to repentance how Calvinists would read it so you can chew on that. Obviously it will not satisfy you where you're coming from but that would be the answer. Okay, what would you what you're excited. Both are true sovereignty of God and the free will of man mentioned white a week counters, human beings understand that, but both are actually talking in the Scriptures, because they finally all the ISO excuse. Again, the question is what we mean by the sovereignty of God and what we mean by the free will of man. In other words, do we believe that God does as he chooses and that God sits in rules and reigns as King on his throne and that he's not trying and wishing and hoping that he's carrying display on the one hand, was the same time he allows human beings to make choices which are often contrary to his will, and contrary to what he's laid out for us. But in his sovereignty he said I am giving you choices. That's if he chose to us choices.

Yeah, I but I believe that and I believe sometimes it does transcend what we can understand now, I don't believe in sovereignty of God, the way a Calvinist with basically God preordained's that happens and I don't believe the free will of man the way worldly people would that we can make any choices free because were still bound by sin, we can't save ourselves the above, I believe that the two go hand-in-hand, and that there is some mystery just like understanding God's eternal nature tri-unity.

These are transcendent truths. There's an interesting statement in an early Jewish document called pure KR votes that a couple hundred years after the time of Jesus and says how cold a fully how to shoot the two. Not everything was foreknown but free will is given, and those are put out as apparently contradictory, but not hey Bob, thank you very much for the call. I appreciate it 86634 to we go to Antonio and California. What's on your mind. I Mr. Bartlett story hi Dr. Brown I wanted to ask you will basically how does a biblical Christian combat mainline carton. In the ward Western Wall bad start collecting same-sex marriage, that the court might be okay be cute LGBT Q) total. Just like what you see on the news and effective offense yeah and Antonio. We recognize that it is part of their larger apostasy from the Bible that these quote mainstream denominations are getting smaller and smaller losing members more and more because they're departing from a real encounter with God and holding to scriptural authority so almost always when they shift left the go from pro-life to pro-abortion. They go from profamily to pro-LGBT activism.

They go from pro-Israel to being so proposed in they become anti-Israel.

To me it's a shift away from scriptural authority and it is a misguided compassion. In other words, in their minds they are doing what Jesus would do. Who knew Jesus reach out to the marginalized. The ones that were the sinners wasn't Noel's accepted and they look at him a certain way and think that they are doing the Christlike thing. Just look at it like this. Okay, here's a lesbian couple, the they were attending an evangelical church they go to enroll their daughter in the Christian school there right so it's of the biological daughter of one of them. The others race and okay they they go to enroll their their daughter and in the church school and they say I'm sorry we can have her here because we only have marriages that we believe are valid in God's sight. And I'm sorry we we can have or will you feel it's a total slap in the face to take as a personal insult their their confluence rejection of their daughter and now they go to some main mainline Methodist Church that's gone apostate or Presbyterian alien Episcopalian yeah absolutely and and the they go they go over there and the people so that's a terrible that is so unchristian.

Who would reject your precious daughter who would reject you. You're such sweet women in your trident so that's how they're looking at it. It was, I understand that they feel they're doing a righteous thing they feel are doing compassionate thing there there telling this this gay couple you know the guy is a great teacher of the Bible you know and and he's committed to his partner and why can't we embrace what we should be embracing someone like that in an so on and so forth. So what it is. It's a misguided compassion so I pity the churches that do this. I warn them, but I understand what's motivating a summons just out that rebellion sinks a castoff or straight, anything goes. We believe in the sexual revolution. The Bibles were interpreted as old-fashioned. That's more the extreme liberal kind of mentality but is just like when young people.

Antonio and I got running up a breaker and then bring a guess on but all young people so passion for social justice and they look at Billy and Bob either 17 years old and the other boys make fun of them because they Billy and Bobby. Why get married and so like this. It's nice kids what we can to get married and maybe these kids themselves come from divorced homes and they don't even know a good marriage. Looks like in their mind to do the right thing. They don't look at the larger issues and the purpose of marriage and what is in God side and so on so forth, the same way with a lot of these churches that left the misguided passion.

Hey, thanks for calling Antonio and I hope you part of a church that stands for righteousness regarding that's the best error on the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution of your again Dr. Michael Brown and I am delighted now my and how hot off the press ready best-selling book is going to be our topic.

The moral majority were evangelicals chose political power over Christian values holding the book in my hand sent to us of the publisher who suggested we have been as a guest. But before I knew this book was coming. I had ordered it and was reading it already.

A friend of mine who is a strident opponent of Pres. Trump but a committed evangelical, when you read it so I have jumped right in and really looking forward now to this conversation with Ben how Ben, thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it and I've uncrossed pass a bit with your your uncle and your dad over Southern Evangelical seminary typesetting is great yeah, and as I was reading the book so you quoted me a couple times a thought. All right, so your you're living in a similar world, so also been I have endless conversations with folks about this. My wife Nancy with great reluctance voted for Pres. Trump in 2016 by the said she can't do it again in 2020 might just sit out the election then in your mind, sir, that the subtitle why evangelicals chose political power over Christian values is is that which you believe is happening across the board just with leaders.

How deep is this in your view, I say it is a growing problem among congregant and fairly influential portion of congregant, but I would say leadership is the primary issue and I was fortunate to grow up in the home. I grew up in, because the I don't have the theological training that like you were my uncle or my dad but I did grow up with and around people and so theology was part of my life growing up apologetically old and I think it the responsibility of leaders in the church to not just teach theology as part of what they do in their certain budget to garner not only interest but a feeling of responsibility to understand the things become to me. Salvation is very very easy to understand, to the point that children can understand and that's great.

But if you're to go out in the world with God. You need to know more than you need to study and you need to try to figure out, and I certainly don't have all the effort, but it I think my biggest issue be very good but there a lot of people think they do revel… Now I guess on all the time and the only folks I know the written books and I am familiar with the content but I don't normally buy a book 1st and start reading it as at this time but I mean you are that I got it here and so these are issues when you're writing about is what my wife and I talk about every day when I talk about on the radio a lot and writing newly for five octets a week.

I'm often addressing these kinds of issues. All right, so that let's put things on the table again speak with Ben how the brand-new book, the immoral majority with the Trump voter with you Deborah for Trump this is a book that you want to read, especially if you're an evangelical whether someone said look you are, and never Trumper you have a problem with the fact he got in the White House. You don't recognize the incredible good he's done so fine he says stupid things, and he did and puts his foot in his mouth and alienates people because were dealing with existential threats to American Israel and Trump is a champion just admitted sour grapes would you say that while the board.

They are the book and my objection and everything else I would today dictate whenever the campaign at the rate about we are to truly below. Certainly, about Donald Trump and Donald Trump is the value but in the years since, and especially among evangelicals and most especially among the most vocal leaders. It is primarily about the way that they approach is president and what what it revealed to me about the nature of partisanship being wrapped up in faith because we've reached the point and Donald Trump exemplified the I think in a lot of ways because the create the greater cognitive wear in order to embrace the things he does. You have to make more and more excuses for more than a George W. Bush, and it created the image of a faith. My faith and nothing more than a tool of Republican and I don't think the public of the conservative I'm a convert these things in and of themselves as political matters. There's plenty of debate and pragmatism to be had. When you make voting a matter of faith. I think you are endangering the kingdom your you're putting people in a position where they are led to believe that there political belief or progressive or whatever is preventing them from coming to God that they have to change their behaviors in order to come to God because after all of the Republican are so so you're concerned about the effect that that voting for Trumper being associated with comp or Singh having Franklin Graham or Robert Jeffress or Jerry full, Junior these voices being very vocally openly associated with Pres. Trump and almost never in a critical way, always in an affirming way that that then means that is the got. This is the gospel and I'll give him a white evangelical probably, and I'm talking about Jesus then probably I also believe in Donald Trump. On some level, and I've now muddied the waters you're concerned about our our witness.

But what about it and determine make sure we draw everything out that people understand you're coming from because these are these are very important spiritual conversations.

We have to have so what are some assistant look what comes to the slaughter of the unborn S minor face to me when he comes to preserving religious abuse that's her face. To me, so I will put my trust in the president or the party, but I want us to voting.

Those are faith issues to me and then the same thing you will have a Christians on the Democrat side that their other faith issues to them.

So have we mixed faith and politics is too much or was it wrong to do in the days of slavery. No, I think that that having faith. I advised people to let their faith guide there about me and I think that it impossible to separate your fate from your boat, but ship different than matters of selecting leadership partisanship is a team sport and I know a lot of weight.

The blood, so when a faith is wrapped up in a partisan review, like the conservative view of the Republican view to the point of 81% of people are able to white evangelical rather supporting the president beyond the boat supporting the way that he deals with America. Maybe talk to Riordan. Payment of character to the matter. All of those things become so associated with the fate that in order for that that group writers 26% of the voting population will be the active voting population, they become so intertwined with that partisanship that the team effort, but now Christianity which was about the kingdom and about getting faith in Jesus and bringing people in it now also become about making sure that we don't upset the Republican party that we don't upset the president and that we make sure that we spend thing in his favor for those graders are concerned or talking greater concerns are vital like they absolutely not been just matter their exponential respect. But God is not bound by it to party system is not bound by an election cycle.

Certainly, and be knee-jerk like no permit migrated into evangelical I been looking at all the years part of the nature of politics is that every election is the most important election of your life that you reach high our faith in God work through the election cycle were taking something eternal and making it short-term and I don't believe that over the course of history. What is been drawn working about a book that would written in large part, 2000 years ago and were still studying it. I think long-term part of the idea that we can't be locked into every two years. We got to do this project think no matter the cost, or otherwise God from our capability going work.it.so that makes a lot of sense that apps absolutely. I do want to talk about another voting bloc in the moment that African-American voters which are like 90% is often a high Democrat, but on average more churchgoing than than white Americans and often with more conservative families are so only bring that up in the moment, but what if someone said this the other day as if I made a list of 10 ways to change America on my list.

Voting would be down towards the bottom, something I do in my list of 10, but way down the list of most important things but because politics does does matter and people appointed Supreme Court, federal justice and laws that can be passed in wars that we might fire not fighting so wanted immigration into the law.

This can happen, so I will vote.

I will be responsible citizen but it's like now it's I got away. This verse is this okay. I have all these reservations at present Trump. I think the good will outweigh the bad and when he does things I don't like to say hey I have a problem with that.

Would that be troubling if that was the sentiment of the major evangelical leaders in America and many white evangelicals if that was the sentiment. Would you have written your book note, I would not read my book because in my mind. A transactional relationship with the president that in many ways defined what evangelicals had most been associated with prior written your dental evangelicals were then going to turn around to support this president. I think that the best way to about it the most of the one that would've been more free of topography would've been to say we've made this determination based on a few issues that are related. A transactional relation and it part of a transactional relationship. We will provide want in return is for him to stop doing things that make it difficult for us to support and I'll pick you up, but then it would've been on the shoulders of the leaders and the congregant to do what I think I try to do. I don't think that being gripping the other bad.

I'm glad to be in Israel. I'm glad for a lot of the ball talking about. I don't pretend that those are bad. The problem with that because the team effort. You also have to pretend like the bad good or you're not part of the team. On the negative, especially dangerous when you start mixing diverse interpretations of the Bible in order to justify your actions most commonly being, you know, rendering procedure, and so on.

And even if you could make the argument that there doing made a rendering theater. However, during follow you believe that you doing still definitely not the mission that was described when Jerry Falwell senior band more majority the whole continent. There would not pick a party and give it power. The concept was to have influence over the people in Washington to bring a greater character and morality to the Right and what would happen there and got a break and I so appreciate clarity coming in this discussion. Again, speak with Ben how the book the moral majority decide on this. I think it's a disease interesting.

The more majority which the person values. My view made a mistake becoming an appendage of the Republican Party, but you're saying they did it for moral purposes and now were compromising. Somehow, something moral. That's the challenge. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown and voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 8643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown I'm speaking with Ben how author of power over Christian values. Ben, let me ask you this, the, the extreme left media which is bashing evangelical standing with Trump was specially evangelicals before this and I don't believe that if I suddenly shifted so that I won't vote for Donald Trump in the next election that they say all please tell us why you oppose same-sex marriage or will you oppose abortion and I'm starting to be the enemy are you are you succumbing to the swimming near the okay interest and Sue have it. I mean this is a surefire way to become a real celebrity in the secular world is to have some notoriety and then write a book that there is no hell and that's, or at least are right about that is the resurrection then you're like the cool guy for little while right, but I want to okay interest so you're saying that you're not getting a warm reception from the liberal media that's looking. She was now the champion of the cause. No I got in a warm welcome.

I definitely like bear baby very nice big and very great by the way that being when it first came out, never be issued and I confronted the time you know I'm going a lot of show that I would be all your being you. Your being you have an error in your helping them vocal in their and you don't. I feel like I got a great lesson from Billy Graham on the you went to the Soviet Union a couple decades ago you spoke to huge congregation of Russian and then sort of the sacredness of the idea was what their unit is propaganda to make the case that they're not anti-Christianity and not anti-religion and are using you for that purpose.

Why are you helping them build together and even something and paraphrasing a line go that may be true, I don't know that's true but there was one KGB agent bear have bad intent needed to hear what I have to say that David Wright and I like that try to keep that kind of mentality of mind which is I can only be used if I'm lying, I'm not lying on thing. What I believe and I think that in some way than all of branch for people who may have previously thought of me as an enemy. And it's also a plea to people that I have always been allied with who are now uncertain about me to like have a conversation so yes, they will you be for those purposes, but ultimately I doesn't matter right understood it in George Whitfield famous preacher in America in the 1700s in the days of Protestant slavery, anti-Catholics, that if the Pope gave in his pulpit he preached from it so that would be the equivalent of you being on MSNBC or CNN today in a secular setting. I got and decide where to get the report yelled only I would do it every day if I had the opportunity at this time off and I welcome but of him.

In point of fact is, I'm just glancing up we do a live stream on Facebook and YouTube, and I'm looking at comments there loving you and they're hating you your your guys and your ignorance so obviously where were doing what we want to do, which is put these issues out here on Odyssey court. A lot of people in the book, so you not the silly can remember when you code me but uncle refers to someone who had real issues with Donald Trump. II strongly opposed and during the primaries, but I kept saying if it's in versus Hillary then I reevaluate. But I never thought would get to that point I had friends abide Lance wall mount the mom of the Cyrus word in it and another young man, Jeremiah Johnson said the strangest thing a week.

Seems like sums up with Trump in the most unlikely character. We could never imagine it we think is can be the president and then an evangelical leader who hotly opposed them. He doesn't endorse anyone but was trying to talk like Ben Carson and Mike Huckabee out of standing with Trump he called me and said Mike I think sums going on here. I mean, he's such an unlikely guy was so much baggage I think sums going on so I wrote an article and he was elected that I believe it was God did something sovereignly. Now it could be to expose hypocrisy of the church of America as well as to stand with Israel.

Hundreds talk on many things at the same time, but is it to you just happenstance that he became the president or in an unusual way. Might you see God's hand again what God does with what his purposes are is not a question but could you see that a good go have no I would think broadly, I think it would God and when our understanding broadly when George W Bush was president language never been a question to me about whether or not it is accurate. They bad from being president is not something that fell out by "God of course my issue is you know when were discussing what God planned barbiturate you're not identifying the plan your thing on the plan clearly it would be your landlord God in control of what you don't know how to churn out my issue is that a lot of people think that they do know how well and this creates a problem like mono you mentioned, you know. He discussed the idea of virus but not in a comparable way. Or maybe you going to be this. It was very prophetic way you described and my issue with that is when you start pushing sort of the prophetic tone around this man. You're no longer saying God can use anyone.

You're saying God will use this person and the way I think and I think that's very different from what were asked to do. I believe the lines have to do is conduct ourselves biblically in the mean and give God the end and I don't know how the Trump could very well be this great figure in terms of Christianity with the people of activities going to be this direct type. He could be. What I won't do you approach that in such a way where I'm trying to protect that possibility find God. In other understood it and to me this was just I was understood it as an analogy, a comparison, the just like Cyrus, who was an idol worshiper was used by God to do is real good.

So Donald Trump was clearly an outside he's been an immoral man and subleasing on Christian God can use him to do good.

My big issue is when we have to defend everything or may commence St. Donald if the elections were today and it was Donald Trump versus any of the current Democrats.

I would almost certainly vote for Donald Trump. My concern is that was when I voted that there's a lot of damage being done because of who he is because of the nature of national discourse was the folder arising out of the nation and is as long as I can say I differ with that.

I have a problem with that.

I wish you didn't insult this woman that wanted now get Denmark Mayo, II can vote because of larger issues, but in the context looked real quick. Why don't you go after African-Americans hired Christian population terms of church attendance than white Americans. And yet overwhelmingly voting Democrat art aren't they compromising their testimony or the witness of Jesus and in the process. Is there voting for pro-abortion candidates and all this other stuff.

Why aren't they in your your crosshairs. While they're not a micrometer would be. I feel very comfortable discussing and criticizing a movement that I feel I'm from audit make sense. The second is I don't I haven't abandoned the notion that people vote with their faith in mind without verily applying their faith as a matter of partisanship and I have not seen the polling that indicate the black community is voting for Democrat to be in line with their religious values there mostly in line with Democrat because they feel the Democratic Party better represent their one at the black community, not a black religious and my concern about religion and partisanship and older blocks are using are all going to this all the time but if you try your faith.

It felt that outcome and claim that Princeton the way to be in line with God. Wisdom is to pull the lever on a particular party every time I feel like that is the co-opting of the gospel what you like men taking it, adding make America great again through the New Testament and you know I love America and I am a patriot and I really do hope that America being we are can bring great things to the world but I also know that God doesn't need.

We need him so if we start looking at ourselves as being vital to the process that we avoid any of the pitfalls.

Even if we have to define him in order to avoid those pitfalls. That's really elevating our own important to a level that I don't "got it, so obviously the issue of of nationalism taking the place of the kingdom of God or mistaking patriotism for the gospel while were loyal American citizens love our country.

We we make the distinction or sinking. Some are licking a particular person is going to bring the country on a course of righteousness, as opposed to elected official. Even the president has a role which is limited number. I'm with you on those things. So if the elections were tomorrow, and it was Donald Trump's Republican candidate. Let's say Elizabeth Warren was the Democrat candidate would you set out the elections. Would you vote 1/3 party. What to you or you not to answer. If that's too personal, but larger acculturated what what what do you know I would have new expectations based on God that the poor stupid guy would probably find a third-party candidate because I do enjoy exercising my freedom. The boat even when I think about vote may not ultimately plan your goal by I what I want is for leaders to step up and earn my vote and at as a conservative, like, but even just just my conservative panel I was dealt party member all like when I get back I got hatband have back on. I think I'm kind of done with Arianna Taylor this is then we are out of time when the dust settles you but if you want to come back and have a long discussion about to do just that your publicist know the book the majority then how thanks for joining us today. Appreciate