A Candid Interview with Prof. Darrell Bock

My guest today says that if evangelicals want to retain their witness or recover their witness for the church will need to find a different candidate than Donald Trump stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience have president of fire school of Ministry got under the line of fire now by going 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH paradigm is Dr. Michael Brown. We are going to have a very open and candid important discussion today.

I urge you to listen with an open heart, open mind, open ears as I speak with my friend and colleague well known New Testament scholar Darrell Locke.

Darrell is a senior research professor of New Testament studies at Dow's theological seminary as well as executive director of cultural engagement for the Hendrix Center there. Got a bit of a bone to pick what was written more than 40 books, which makes him ahead of me, but that's right so we we really want to talk about some very serious issues, but evangelicals in the culture about evangelicals and the president about issues that are highly volatile, like race and racism and were going to speak as openly and candidly as we can. Not to be offensive, but to be forthright, to be clear and here and there to bring out certain points because I'm sure Dr. Bock and I are going to be in substantial agreement on many in maybe dismount some I'll take the other side of some positions to see what conclusions we come to so with that Darrell will come back to the far thanks for joining us all. Michael, it's great to be reviewed is all life, and it's great to hear your voice after seeing your couple weeks ago.

So yeah very very pleasant surprise to see and in Toronto. So yes so you're ahead of me in books Manning to work harder on that. Try to catch up on what were you working on now. Any major projects we just finished a commentary on Ephesians and then I've edited a book on method and historical Jesus studies will be out at the turn of the year with Tom Wright having written forward and then I've worked a book on or calling cultural intelligence about the theology of cultural engagement theology of the spaces and places be out this time next year with Broadman home and that actually is a major project I'm working on the matching up with several things around to try and make the point about how we missed it and how we can gauge to have a culture war has done enough damage rather than help us because we had the wrong target. I tell you what one that we start there. The church and the culture wars will go from there to the church and the president and the will go from there to some of the most difficult divisive issues and I in our culture today so could you unpack that statement that that we had the wrong target and hence our engagement. The culture versus actually hurt the church is the passage. Here's Ephesians 610 to 18 the armor of God passage in which the text as outright, our battle is not not not not not that emphatic against flesh and blood, but it's involving spiritual forces and powers in the heavenly places. What the Greek one of the Greek words is called a cosmic rat and I think you think the bureaucrats bad. You have a meta-cosmic class hands and so and so, my point is that the people are never the enemy intact. People are actually the goal that you know our goal is to draw people from outside the church in the sacred space but in volume to participate in the gospel and when we view people as the enemy and make them the enemy we actually misdirect the spiritual element of what's going on in the spiritual element in our spiritual defense is really our theology, our character who we are as a community. Those are the things that are said to be the Army God, not an ideology, not a particular political stance and so I think because our targets been misdirected. We've actually done damage to the church and to the credibility of the church in the process because we tended to make people into we've demonized people.

And when you demonize people you actually don't do a good job of drawing them towards the gospel and let let me yes this is this is something that I've struggled with. Often, even writing an article recently. Could the church have avoided the culture wars so you want to kind of focus on what you're saying and give yourself to prayer and good works in sharing the gospel and then something outrageous happens, your kid comes home from school crying. Some some ridiculous sex ed curriculum being pushed on them and then at your local library drag Queens again to be reading to toddlers and and then the air across the street. There's an issue with religious liberties and so I've got to do something I've got to speak up. So you're not mean-spirited you're not screaming and yelling, but you have to take a stand for righteousness and expose evil is the same time she do that.

It was as we speak against same-sex quote marriage just my saying that quote marriage I'm demeaning gay couple. So hot, how do you do the one without the other.

I mean how do you navigate this the challenge of being a Christian in the world. This is been true in every decade in every century and every millennium is that on the one hand, you're challenging.

People with the way that they live because the world is not what it ought to be, but you're also extending an invitation for a different kind of life.

Whenever your your challenge so overwhelmed your invitation. You lost the path to the gospel which means good news and so I think it's a matter of balancing the tension between what you react. You should never be surprise at the world as the world right area and so and so sometimes we pretend we have the shock that we have the shock because we have developed a sense of internal entitlement that the society at large to be like the church and the Bible never teaches that and so so we need to create a right set of expectations for ourselves we need is harassment correct rights and expectations for our children as we write them up in the world.

They shouldn't be surprised or shocked by what they see out there, but we ought to help them cope with it and in part of that is how we react to what we see around us.

That shouldn't catch us by surprise. Jesus said if you're gonna be my disciple. You're going to push back from the world that's coming with the territory.

So I think we have coddled ourselves to some degree as Christians in terms of our expectations and we have unrealistic expectations about what the world is and what the function of the churches in the world and the process we've misdirected our aim in and misdirecting our aim was actually done ourselves damage in America. Darrell is, it may be a bit more precarious for us because we have certain Christian roots in our history. We have certain Christian roots.

Since many of our schools of higher learning. We have certain traditions for good punitive of our history, there was public prayer in our schools, Bibles with our schools. Franklin Graham was asked what you address political issues and cultural issues more than your your father did and he said in my father's day there reading the Bible and the schools so it it is this something we should be cherishing and saying hey this is part of what made America great and and we want to try to recover this not have a theocracy, or think America was ever perfectly Christian, but to say, hate the this is part of her heritage in the end it was better than our our current direction or is that now dangerously mixing nationalism with the kingdom of God.

Now I'm thinking I'd I think you make a case for what makes society work okay. I like to tell people here's how our culture has changed and were in. In my lifetime. It used to be you could say it's true because it's in the Bible and enough people had enough high regard for the Bible to take the Bible even if they didn't believe it was inspired or near however they viewed their their their bibliology date. They had a respect for the Bible as at least being wise advice about life. Now you have to make a different kind of argument. Now the argument is it in the Bible because it's true that's a different way of arguing and it's a different kind of argument, and the reason that's important is because what I like to tell Christians is the reason God says what he says is because it's good for life. You know it's true. This is why we ought to live.

This is the best way for us to engage with one another to do so in a way that is healthy and enforcing and we gotta make the case, but we also got to know how to lose well because we've been told if we make that case if we put that in the public square. The world is going to push back because the world is a dark place and so so you make your case and what we've been dealing. This is the loss of something that was precious but that. Was an anomaly you know and and so being able to adjust to that in the end understand that the time when the church was oftentimes most effective is when it had the least social power and the least political power early generations of the church had no such power. Yet they functioned effectively because they had a credible witness as to who they were. As the people of God, and in we've lost that and we need to recover it, and it certainly is the way we can have to deal with the changes that are going on around us that are happening so fast, you make your head spin. Yeah, and in the moment we look at the larger political issues and and Donald Trump. Specifically in evangelicals and tromp but down again, these are things that I've wrestled with for years and years. Knowing my calling to speak and be a voice knowing the challenges and the dangers and how easy it is in America to confuse patriotism with the kingdom of God and knowing also that we may have greatest revival in the worst situation I just met with some of her grads who serve in China and hearing from them and and again the church thriving there and difficulties, but do we throw away our liberties, do we do, we just say okay let the whole thing collapse because we can't do love the that we do. We tend to do better as the persecuted minority than the ruling majority but we have in a tens of millions of must we just throw away our influence what we do and I don't think you throw your input. I think you continue to contend for what you believe in, but the king is the second half of what I said earlier, we have to learn how to lose well we have to recognize that when we operate in the public square.

We operate in the shared public square that is pluralistic in its structure has no inherent religious commitment or conviction and and so you know, so we make the case for for what we believe in but we may or may not be persuasive in terms of the Democratic but in terms of Democratic members and that kind of thing where she shouldn't be surprised if that happens right man. The question is how do we respond to respond out of fear to respond out of anger. We continue to serve the city. You know, one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible is in Jeremiah where the Israelites have gone to Babylon. Certainly not the most commendable society that there been formed by human kind and they're told to serve the city and they're told to engage in such a way that they don't lose their integrity as they interact with those around them as a way to be right, but do it in such a wrong way, that you're still wrong and that's what I'm afraid we been doing audit right friends.

There is there is tremendous nuance and what my friend Prof. down about this same gotta break coming up here.

I hope you hearing it easy.

He is assisted director of cultural engagement for the Hendrick center. This right with you these things in the wrong way. And, again, is it something it's a holy tension. I deal with all the time and not claiming of than anything perfectly either, but this is important for us to hear get so caught up with the physical spirit that is aligned with our spiritual causes that we destroy our witness drive away the very people Jesus came to save and come back talk about evangelicals and Donald Trump. Do we need time off for another candidate in the fall in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us and speaking Prof. Darrell Bock, also a dear friend and coworker. All right, let us get right to the subject cut to the chase.

Do you feel that evangelical Christians a have heard their witness by either voting for tromp or openly supporting tromp and be you feel that we need to take action to recover our witness. If you answer in the affirmative to either the first two guys in the first question answer is, well, yes, sort of.

I don't have a problem with someone who decided to vote for Trump. In one sense, they were voting for certain policies in certain ways of life and living that I think in many cases, although not all were things that represent what commitments the Christian should have. The problem is in the is in the second half, which is the support.

The way in which we have supported tromp almost unconditionally, almost excusing certain things to be done instead were looking for ways out. Things were defending the 10 years ago we never would've defended because someone had a deed by their name instead of in our that's where the problem is because that's produced an inconsistency on moral inconsistency and inconsistency in what we stand for that undercuts our credibility so that we do speak into the public square on moral issues, people sitting inside us.

Why should I believe you used to say this, but now you say that the only difference is that you like the politics of the person. Do you now defend. Whereas before you didn't like the politics of the person you are condemning and so I think that inconsistency stands out it and it undercuts our credibility and that's what we've done harm. So yes we now need to move into a mode where we speak up and and and show better consistency in what we believe in respond accordingly hold people accountable for their behavior. That kind of thing and and even be willing to sacrifice some things that we might really believe in. For the sake of being morally consistent in, and thus enhance your credibility but I will tell you the damage that has been done is very real. It's very long term it's because it's costing us a generation of people and and I don't know if it's even to light what why are you so convinced that the damage is so widespread and by the way, I'm with you and everything you said.

I voted for tromp II continue to raise issues when I see other issues to raise etc. we talked about will get to the point in terms of what you think has to be done. Beyond that, beyond calling things out expressing differences, etc. so I I don't entirely agree with the objection of the race, but I want to raise it. Okay, I know that the left-wing media is constantly inflaming tensions and saying if you voted for tromp your racist if you voted for Trump, the blood of Charlottesville is on your hand door or whatever and and I know the reason that the left is pushing this is not because it's trying to rescue our witness but because it's trying to drive people away from voting for tromp so he'll lose in 2020. How much of the hostility towards tromp and the hostility towards evangelicals is being inflamed by the left so I I totally agree with you. Many of our leaders have said things they defend Trump St. Donald River he does is great and just you look the other way and like the same things we never would've accepted 10 years ago we justify with well without voting for pastor voting for president Reese used to say character counts.

So I agree with you on that.

How much is being inflamed by the left and why are you so sure that we really have done tremendous damage. Forget the left. We ourselves well on the low idea with the left first. Yes, there is a push coming from the left and some of people on the left are raw secularists who don't care aware about some of the things that we feel very deeply about. I get that but were contending for a population it's trying to decide whether the going to turn to the right or the left and the more you undercut your credit capability to more you risk pushing people to the left side, particularly if they sense there is terrific human injustice and some of the positions that you're defending when you split families on issues of immigration.

For whatever reason and you do so, almost without offensive of caring about what's going on. You set yourself up to push people to the left and my concern is for the people who are trying to decide between the poles about where they're going to land and particularly young people. If you actually look at the polling and look at their attention about where young people are and where they're headed there being drawn in that direction because they see heartlessness in a callousness coming from the right that they don't want to connect with so so I think there's a real problem here, and I do think the damage is actually quite deep. I obviously your process for the seminary so you don't have some its college-age students that you got students older than that and then some well on in age but you're quite in touch with the younger generation. What are you hearing from younger Christians what's their perspective. While their perspective is there and one sense there perplexed. You know the values that I grew up with that you were teaching me when I was a child, I do not see being practiced now tell me what I'm supposed to do it and so like again that this whole thing is there's an inconsistency here, in which the end justifies the name means or nationalism has has tromped Christian values.

There are a whole series of things in which there's an inconsistency which is transparent. The left, the last howitzer that exposes that and takes advantage of it and that's part of the way we do ourselves damage.

I sometimes say to people look work in some senses were getting what we deserve for getting what we paid for because we have not been the consistent Christian witness that we ought to be when it comes to how people are handled. The way you view people of other nations, you know, one of things that happens to me when I become a Christian is I become connected to people who have nothing to do with the United States. Yet I and and so to have some sense about what that responsibility is and how you know the I'm sorry but America first is is not is not a Christian value and so what God cares about God so loved the world so that it those kinds of tensions that that I'm talking about and I think we've just been so inconsistent in the midst defending some things that ought to be defended. I mean, we ought to defend.

We ought to defend the baby in the womb. We ought to defend the way in which marriage has been seen for millennia, those things ought to be done, but we can't do it at the expense of other human rights issues that the Bible speaks very clearly towards we have to be more discerning. I like to say no one was more pro-Israeli or more pro-Israel than the prophets, but they certainly could be self-critical – or missing. Yet there is that I reference this in the book that I wrote Donald Trump is not a savior that there is a professor used to be Jewish theological seminary before he passed away your thing on months, who wrote an article called, his Majesty's loyal opposition and it was about the prophets of Israel and and their role in the society as his Majesty's loyal opposition, but then it went to to God and the prophets that that that God would know as he was about to bring judgment there would be a Moses would say.

But God if you do this, your reputation will be at stake, and he was looking for that Moses to stand up to plead for mercy and that since God had a righteous excuse because a human was pleading for to to show mercy when you go over to the to the prophets of Israel because they love their nation. They were willing to rebuke and speak the truth and be it to the king be into the people be into each other. That's part of real loyalty as opposed to just I sign on the dotted line and on the yes-men so obviously we have very few of those conservative prophetic voices because it seems we do have these conservative prophetic voices.

They end up just kinda being baptized into the Republican Party and and unfortunately I think depending on the issue that you're dealing with.

In certain cases in certain cases, there are concerns. Frankly coming from the left, but do you reflect some closer position to biblical values than some of the position. Some on the right take so I don't think this is a matter of of you know I think will pass the time of being able label someone and on the basis of a libel accept or dismiss an idea. I just got to get to the point where we assess ideas on the merits and eight and in some cases we may need to split some differences between the two views and look for, you know, one of things it's certainly been lost in my lifetime. Is it used to be to people in Congress negotiated with each other and tried to find at some level of common ground. Those days are so long gone immediate targeted it's hard to realize that there was a time when it was being typed those kinds of efforts were taken seriously and so the idea of a pursuing legislation in certain areas.

That's bipartisan we get nothing done today. There are certainly certain things that ought to be able to be achievable right and and again. What happens is when slain by seaweed the church believers were inflamed by the knees be at the left or the right where inflamed by some social media down my wife Nancy is to spend broken hearted for days now.

It's the main subject. We talk about the statuses of the church is reflected on social media will be carelessly just pass on the way. All the other Clintons killed Epstein that you know we just just pass on the latest Mima liquid with no concern about speaking truth or accuracy or what's appropriate or not it yes so and that Sam Everett, there's a risk of committing slander outright slander you as we do it freely as if insight can we just jump in if if the meme is cute especially get a lot of likes. Hey just put it out. I listened we come back and will pursue that and then just asked directly in your view, is imperative that evangelicals publicly say we need another candidate other than Donald Trump in the next election, and then from there we go to a noncontroversial something something sarcastic rated racist. Is there systemic racism in the church in the society is the church aware of it doing something about right for plan and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown Darrell Bock Dallas theological seminary's were talking about the church and the culture and how we can't disable the left is this to the right. Is this the conservatives this for liberals this in terms of righteousness and what position is right Darrell, I just spotted a comment someone was pushing back and saying how was the Democratic platform and Democrats espousing socialism better for the poor than the Republican platform.

How would you reply to those you just feel that in terms of social cultural issues.

Overwhelmingly, the Democrats are on the wrong side well. Interesting thing is that he talked to a lot of poor people but I don't think you're on the wrong side. So the question becomes, alright, so have that happen and what is that me so you might you might think in your own view in your own way of taking thinking about the poor that the Democrats don't serve the poor artist in them.

And there might be some point on which you might be correct about that, but my guess is that there is something about the way people are connecting with the poor are listening to them are hearing to some of the things that they're saying rather than being in some cases dismissive of them that draws them to that side. This is part of the magnet picture I was using earlier you got people in the middle who are deciding which way they're going to go. How do you communicate in such a way that a person sees you really do care about me. You do understand my predicament. You do understand that my life is different than yours and that what I've been through in the circumstances that I've been taken through that. The history behind that you know will probably turning our attention a little bit towards the racism discussions to a certain extent with some of this that that that that has that has created an environment in which in which my opportunities are not your opportunities that cut those kinds of things and and so I you know I think these blanket statements that did say that one side has it all right and the other side has it all wrong probably is missing at on both sides something and so this is why you need a better, more nuanced, more careful conversation about what really is in the interest of the poor and how do you communicate real and genuine concern and how much effort do you make to listen to people who are in those circumstances, a living out of the circumstances to get some sense about what your policy to be so so your consistent word that you're bringing to us is tone is is communication his message and not just the issue were standing on some example I grew up in the suburbs. Born in New York City in Manhattan but grew up as a kid in the suburbs and it live.

Basically my life is as middle-class unit depends where you put yourself in middle-class basic middle-class suburbs of over the over the decades, and I may have a view about what's best for the poor in the inner city but on any of the city.

So at the very least need to have a conversation with someone in the inner city, especially a fellow believer and get perspective and then be able to each understand each other and put our heads together for solution. What would you come back to that in a moment, but I want to just focus on on Donald Trump. Is it enough in your view, if evangelical say look were put off by this we don't like this, we have concerns about this, but he is the most viable candidate. He's doing a lot of good on some existential things. The courts in an abortion and and things for Israel, and perhaps standing up against tyranny in other parts of the world. So we make our differences known and and if he's the candidate of it. It's hard to tell. And see the sitting president. The primaries then hey, he's a man, but we have our differences, our cabinets and we certainly want to offend him.

In your view, is that enough to cover our witness should you think we have to do more. I think we have to make him sufficiently accountable, that there is a potential cost for his failure to be responsive in those areas and so you know that weather that doesn't necessarily mean choosing another candidate, although I get my III think that what we but here's the question that I have that I often ask the real proton person, I say, how is it possible that the policies that he is defending could not be defended by another person in a completely different way. It will bring more credibility to the church guy. I actually think those people exist guy. I don't think I'm on now.

They might say will realistically you know he's the one who's in the position but do we just see that territory to him and not make him accountable for the for the for some of the real serious failures that he also brought to the office that I've done real damage in certain areas to meet some of the things that we lift them up for the deserves credit for, but the damage that he's done cannot be ignored because it's serious. And so I think a way of holding him accountable is way do it now. I think my own personal view is that his personality may be so flawed that that won't do him personally any good, but it will do our country and it will do our society.

A lot of good. And that's the distinction I'm pushing for God it in in in the intro to the show I I I stated things perhaps a little bit too plainly in terms of your position. So thanks for explaining it more plain if if the clock was to stop right now. Evangelicals Donald Trump Donald Trump in terms of the good that he's done and there you huge that's what I say to you things he's done massive accomplishments and other things that are bad, some would say they're huge as well. In your view for the overall good of America. Big question, and I know your careful thinker, but big question in your view as president Trump for the overall good of the country done more harm than good or more good than harm, who I think I think the harm that is done to our body politic in the harm that is done to the institutions and the way they are respected or disrespected. It is serious damage. So I think I give you more Minas than plus having said this here here's another point I like to make a proton first because when I bring this up though sites yeah but the other side has done X, Y, and Z almost as a justification for our our willingness to also be able to do X, Y, and Z and my point is, as Christians were supposed to be better than the world were supposed to be different than the world were not supposed to be like the world and so we act like the world and turn ourselves into another special interest groups just like the rest of the world, we open ourselves up to be a choice among many, and we lose our distinctive. That's what I'm afraid we've given up with Trump.

He has defended certain things that certainly are worth defending, and in certain cases been very, very pleased with some of the decisions of these made, but what he has done to us spiritually and emotionally as a as a community has been extremely damaging in that and and I can't give them a pass on that expand on that. What is he done spiritually and emotionally to us as well. Think about the way he attacks our institutions simply because they're trying to hold him accountable. Think about think about think about that. The doubt and that and that in the rock that is set in as a result of that that I can't trust someone.

He talks about the news is if it's fake news, but frankly, a lot of what they've reported is turned out to be true to her than what he's represented to the public. What does that do to to our environment when we need to be able to trust our government for what it says it think about the way he treated our allies guy some of the people who have stood with us in our closest SEs belittled and look at the people that is lifted up, and what their character is arming there a whole series of things that a moral relational character level in which he has. He has done damage.

He has failed and those are not those those are as or more important is policy and long-term in my view.Donna and Megan friends you may differ with Prof. Bob, you may be wanting me to take a more passionate stand against what he saying in class, I type these questions I ask all the time.

This is a constant conversation my wife and I are having. And if the elections were today.

It was Donald Trump against say Elizabeth Warren.

I would vote for Donald Trump. However, I wrestled with these things as well. I opposed him hotly during the primaries, I would rather see Ted Cruz in office and then I wonder okay I and I do believe Darrell it as I look at it. The only I can see Donald Trump being the president with all that was going against him was that God had a hand in it.

But God could also be doing good through him and then giving us what we deserve and and then revealing a lot of the rot that's in the church.

The hypocrisy God is the ultimate multitasker yes and I'm a little nervous about giving you giving God too much for the presence of Donald Trump and the presidency.

Not that I don't think that sovereignly it didn't happen and that my flight was part of what took place, but the but the point is that that's another way we can cover all over. I know what we should be evaluating him on and that and that that sometimes bothers me as well. You know he is he Cyrus you know or if you have, you know you know people and updating in leadership positions. God allows it to take place but that doesn't mean that he's putting in perimeter. On the way in which they pled and I asked was he Cyrus or was he Nebuchadnezzar or begin these these various leaders and when I realized I've always heard it in a certain way in terms of God doing something sovereignly, which does not put in the approval on the person.

Rather, God had a purpose and it then others take it as a prophecy, and in this is now God's anointed who you can question which is really really dangerous about what is actually exposing how shallow the church has become in the West by adapting and end justifies the means approach to issues tied to character and societal well-being.I believe God is doing that. I don't question that split second and that's what's a Gaza multitasking other words president Trump to be doing good with court appointees, and various things like that to be doing good, pushing back against abortion to be doing good for Israel are perhaps pushing back against Iran getting nuclear arms which are all massive things we deeply appreciate and recently we voted for him, and at the same time exposing a lot of the superficiality hypocrisy in the church right take 45 seconds before the break could tell me why you as a white professor at a major seminary in Dallas Texas have become concerned about the issue of racism because I care about my fellow brothers in Christ I care about my fellow human beings, which is a core commitment of the great commandment which is to love God with all my heart mind and soul and love my neighbor as myself, and I've been told. My neighbor is anyone God it will.

That was 15 seconds right friends really come back and we can ask some hard questions him to do my best to to let Darrell speak for the good part is that the 12 minutes or so that will have left we come back.

My guess professor Dowell block. If you don't have any of his books. If you're into deep study of the New Testament and who Jesus is God get his books, if you want to know why were certain books not in the Bible, and so on. Popular stuff back to the division. Dowell block his demand to go to see Kay. I own many of his books is greatly it's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us block today about cultural issues. The divisive issues with the church stands for the president to racism to pro-life issues, etc. and Dalia will be glad to know that a lot of folks watching on YouTube disagree with use of the be some good healthy discussion there.

Hopefully friends. Discuss it, discuss it in the way of substance and just attacking each other so were we getting people thinking, and that's the whole purpose of this you have really been burdened about issues concerning race and we keep learning were my listeners have really helped enlighten me about many things that they've experienced growing up in dealing with that. I never dealt with. So we all have blind spots.

We we keep learning and growing, but this is been something is, as I've known over the years seems to be a burden it's deepening and you so talk to me claiming what's the church, the right or wrong here. Well, I think that that rice was a problem. We thought we had solved in the 60s and what we've shown is that we have insulted it all and I think part of it is is because our society is living in in really two distinct worlds in many ways, you know, let me give you an example. You know we talked about how in the African-American community.

For example, that there ought to be more family values and that kind of thing that you know disabilities built around the family, all of which is true. But here's what we don't see corporately and structurally that we never deal with and we make that statement and that is that for decades African-Americans in the context of slavery were put into context in which families were literally ripped apart by divine and and so when you grow up in the society and the context in which you lose a family not by your own choice, but by the exercise of other people's prerogatives and power, then you set models for behavior and serve and survival that aren't based around biblical values and in family coherence in that kind of thing we take no responsibility for that as it is the part of the society that was somewhat responsible for those kinds of situations, some either there is that there are two kinds of racism. There's what I would call an active racism when I talk about that, I'm talking about the white supremacist. The Ku Klux Klan person that kind of thing. But there's another kind of racism it's completely passive it's withdrawn from from being aware of what's going on around them.

It's hesitation to speak into the injustice in one way or another and what that does is perpetuate the structures that do push some people down by not asking questions about about fairness and opportunity in those kinds of things and and by refusing to acknowledge or come to grips with the impact across generations of choices that were made no three or four generations ago. I call it passive because it's not active there's nothing there's not a maliciousness to it. Okay, it's just there and it and it is our lack of awareness of of what what has produced the situation that were in the produces and insensitivity and a lack of a lack of of appreciation for why were in the circumstances were in and then out what really needs to be done to try and help deal with it, which is you know rice is kind of an all hands on deck problem right so it's not Republican versus Democrat it's we as followers of Jesus with the responsibility in society. You mentioned to me. We were in Toronto something very enlightening when you had to interview Dr. Tony Evans what what happened. We are well you know we I host a podcast called the table@thatvoicedts.edu that'll be the only promotion that all do and and in the midst of discussing rice.

Tony's a good friend and I asked him tell me what I as a white person that the quotation don't get about being black in America in a way to answer the question. Is he went through a list. It probably took them five minutes to go through it all up a variety of experiences that he goes through on a regular basis or has to cope with on a regular basis simply because he is black that I never even have to think about as a white person. It has to do with him.

He's driving on the way to a Bible study in a rich part of Dallas and he gets pulled over by a policeman simply because he's black and is asked what are you doing this part of town.

It's the talk that most black parents have to have with their children about what to do if there pulled over by a policeman in order to not put themselves in danger in the black community. This is this is often called the talk I mean, it's that widespread and so there are things like this that I never have to deal with that he deals with on a regular basis and when you see that and feel that day after day after day impacts your identity in the way you view the world in ways that I've never been touched and so just being aware of that difference. The methods of the two worlds that I'm talking about helps me to become more sensitive to the fact that someone else's experience in the society that we share is not necessarily the same experience that I've had right and then again this was all his friends were talking about is understanding generalize. I've shared with focusing in multicultural mode to multiracial churches that when it comes time for elections rather than avoid the issues you want to have some of the folks who articulate from Hispanic, black, white, Asian, etc. and say hey here's what's important to me and here's why. Vote the way I vote.

The discussion this understand big because you know where I was talking to one black leader New York City and he said you try to get prayer back in the schools and try to get education back in the schools and Italy's certain priorities that one group will have the other doesn't understand and when your timeout people who love the Lord, who were people of the word people of moral character and then they vote in a way that this how could you do that and we try to have these conversations on the air here, but that's the thing to have the conversation to listen. I have one African-American friend of mine is constantly sending the headlines of outrageous things that happened in like with whether a white cop that was leading a black black guy they'd arrested you pulling them on a rope down the streets like this is happening. So whether it is I think it's cute or not. The fact is I did know about this right and follow this or I did know that is like that's what I live in so it's the awareness that when I try to be woke and NB the social justice warriors try to be godly people that are following applicable teaching. It's that simple is not yeah and I actually don't mind being woken at that and that which I am blind and blinkered and so being a good listener, you know, there's a good real quick way to tell whether your good listener not and that is whether you're concentrating on what the person is saying to you in such a way that you could repeat it back to them and I would say you got it, whether in your mind you're thinking about what your retorts can be no one is listening. The other is not. And so you know, so when I have conversations with people from different backgrounds. I go in and out in it and I see myself as a person who's curious. I'm curious about life. I'm curious about the life experiences of other people why they see the world differently than I do that kind of thing and I want to probe why that is in MN. I do want to sort through that. I do want to be discerning about that but I don't go in with an attitude that says because you think differently than you do. I can't trust what you're saying to me you know I go into the conversation saying no you think differently than I do, I will.

I'm curious as to why what's really going on.

Is there something I might be missing that I need to hear. You know that's the way I go into some of these conversations and aunt and in the process.

What what I find is is that when I send those vibes out to someone because they're so used to our defensiveness in our culture today when you send those vibes out to someone. It actually changes the nature of the conversation yeah and you actually need and get further because because of the get to the point where you're communicating.

I trust and respect for the person to which they will respond and so so there's just a different way to go about doing what were doing. It doesn't involve doubling down it doesn't involve insulting someone because they think differently and do you it's actually getting down to the nitty-gritty and trying to figure out where the differences are coming from and why you know the endowment when ice started to burdens about the issues that were transgender was really on the horizon as much back in 2004, but started to get his burden about gay and lesbian issues on you. Okay I'm bring about the issues. Now I need to get burden for the people and I went out of my way to talk with people, local activists, others if I was flying at night and I could sense the person next to me was Gayla's mentor is conversation I heard it, I'd I'd interact with them. I tell them this so I am a mom of Bible believing follow Jesus, but I will know your story. Tell me your story and I was 100% sure that God did not create that man to be with another man or that woman to be another man and that he wasn't glorified to that was 100% sure but I genuinely wanted to hear their stories so I could better understand them as people and have more compassion for them. How much more when I talk about right and wrong issues as much is your life experience and I can learn from it. So now we've we've got a minute give us a closing word a closing reflection. Well, I think the thing that I've tried to stay in the entire hours, the more consistent. We are about living out the convictions that we have and who we are is the people of God recognizing the word that that we will get pushback from the world world. The more consistent.

We are the more we underscore our credibility for everything else that we care about and that's true whether were talking about politics or in particular were talking about the gospel or particularly were challenging people in moral areas. If we've been morally inconsistent in how we've interacted with the world. Our credibility on moral questions goes down and the same is true with regard to the gospel which says that God cares about people and love them very deeply now to be able to see that love in the way I treat them well said so appreciated and look we are we are God's holy party. We are, that's our ultimate affiliation heavily citizens living here in this world with kingdom values of the awesome work friends get some books by Darrell class COCK keep writing on it to try to catch anybody blessed. I