An Interview with Daniel Gordis on Divisions in World Jewry

So why are there six divisions between American Jews of the Jews of Israel. My guest Daniel Gordis has some important answers to the stage for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience have president of fire school of ministry getting to the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH Bureau, Jim is Dr. Michael Brown noise in recent years, the name is, often talk about Israel and talk about wise insights in the nation of Israel. Why solutions for difficult future. That name is Daniel Gordis he is senior vice president and the curried distinguished fellow Chilean college in Jerusalem and a two-time National Jewish book award winner. Yes, a brand-new book, we stand divided of this book Michael Arun, former Israeli ambassador to United States is impassioned, brilliant and riveting.

We stand divided is the essential book for understanding American Jewish Israel relations Gordis is made an outstanding contribution to the field, this is Michael Brown it's thoroughly Jewish Thursday at the bottom of the hour. I'll take your calls 866-34-TRUTH eight 784 that's 866-34-TRUTH, but I want to dive right in with our esteemed author Daniel Gordis Daniel, thanks so much for taking time to join us. The day after Yom Kippur great honor. Let me just ask you this before we dive in the shocking news from Germany yesterday. The rising tide of anti-Semitism worldwide.

How does that make Israeli Jews feel right now really feel about Sarah and reaffirmed that an effect that unfortunately synagogue shootings are becoming less uncommon than they used to be at one in Pittsburgh and one in LA now Germany. I hope anybody was terribly surprised that someplace in the world. People try to kill Jews at prayer of the holy as they appear to make it really does also feel reaffirmed because that was part of the point of the state of Israel that the Jews should have one place on planet Earth where they can defend themselves and live in pride. According to their own tradition. There were no attacks in Israel an empty board because really defend themselves, and were quite fortunate that we been able to do that so set on reaffirmed. I think what about Pres. Tom's controversial decision to pull reposition a troop sincerely which is an open door to Turkey to come in and attack that occurred since obvious implications for Israel is entrance and a great friend of Israel.

This is a distressing decision has has that playing out the national psyche of Yahoo controversial figure himself, but nonetheless said earlier today that Israel would extend to the Kurds in any way that that it could.

I'll because we would go to war on behalf of the Kurds is still a tremendous affinity for the current. The Kurds have long wanted to go back to their ancestral homeland. Curtis van they have long had to fight for their survival. If in many ways a story very similar to that of the Jewish people.

The Jewish people have been fortunate to be able to build the country occurred having a neurotic president from has done a number of things that Israelis have applauded that I believe that Israelis are distressed by this decision of the president for two reasons. Number one they feel that the Kurds have always been on the receiving end of history in America centers that offer them the five and second of all, of course, with American troops being pulled out of the region. Isis can come back into play and that is of course bad not only for all of the left, particularly for Israel which is so much closer.

As soon as someone born in America what is it that causes you in so many other many thousands of Jesus to make all the every year was that brought you the Israel and establish to their very happy my life that I American deeply proud to be American. America were below is the greatest democracy on the face of the planet. We feel really privileged that we both brought my life on the West Coast in the on the East Coast of the United States and yet of the state of Israel is the first time in 2000 years that the Jews have been able to actually live out a dream that they never gave up on which was to go back to our ancestral homeland and see if we could fashion a society based on our values based on our culture and our language and so forth. This is a very unusual time in Jewish history to be part of the building of a country kind of right after 1776 in America, so we really felt this was kind of a calling calling from a higher purpose to be part of the stage where the Jewish people generated future right so I am in two worlds largest in the evangelical Christian world and a lot of work and ministry. I do this messianic you in constant interaction with our Jewish people and evangelical Christians don't understand why American Jews don't so wholeheartedly support Israel on the scar constantly seems evangelical Christians put greater stock greater importance in Israel's existence today and and think we just have to stand with Israel. No matter what, and they don't understand why American Jews are sometimes even that is interested.

It doesn't seem to be as big a folding priority or an emotional priority to see you break this down in your book. We stand divided but try to explain some of the dynamics for largely Christian listeners to give them insight into the Jewish world report progress in the first understand that American Jews are not nearly as theologically based as are many Christians and certainly as our evangelical Christians do feel themselves part of a nation part of the people of them if you consultant part of a religion also.

But the profundity of their fate under believe that the Bible somehow ought to guide there is very different and much more diluted, especially in the more progressive part of the Jewish community so they have typically kind of combined belief in the values of America with what they believe are Jewish values and Jewish traditions and values of America and they understand them.

Of course, are highly universal. America is willing to be home to people of all the cities all religions. All backgrounds and so forth may believe that's what made America great purge, but as well and therefore don't really articulate this to themselves, but they do find themselves struggling. First of all, the country that is about one particular ethnicity. The Jewish people also struggled with the issue of Israel conflict with the Palestinians middle Kind of wrapper headroom. I can Israel make peace with the Palestinians. So I think a lot of those are the three basic reasons. Number one, there are less theologically oriented than our evangelical Christians number two there much more universalist than Israel of the country as this is what the country specifically designed to save the Jewish people.

And third of the conflict with the Palestinians, of course, causes them no end of anguish, understandably, actually right. So you say in your book so that in in chapter 2 that this is a risk older than the state itself so it explain that to us that a lot of people discussing Israel appears on the scene and boom there it is there some see a prehistory to it.

Their different ideologies from the sinus settlers who work largely nonreligious to the very religious that resisted the state of Israel.

It still resisted this day so so what's the rift, of which you speak so important to remember that violent them with a long time with a long-term spinning product that begins at the political movement in 1897, which is almost 50 years to the day of for the state of Israel is created and during that half a century, American Jews were actually not as embracing and enthusiastic about Zionism as many people might imagine that they would've been. First of all, American judges were trying to make a new home in America and president. Pres. Woodrow both, and, among others, but he was very explicit that you could be an American because of the all American you could be an Austrian American or a German-American or an Italian American data be American American silver Jews in America who really wanted to take advantage of the unprecedented warm invitation that America gave to the Jews. The idea of helping to build another country in a different place felt very edgy to them so they expressed support and they gave support, but it was never the wholehearted support that European Zionists wanted American Jews to give them want to focus created by the way Israel begins to speak of itself as the new center of the Jewish world which to American Jews was both laughable and effective when Israel was created to report to the New York City another were in the entire state of Israel. So by virtue of what Americans is to know that the Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion on Israel's first prime minister go around speaking about a new center of the Jewish world so American Jews were both ambivalent about the idea that they would help create a different country because they were worried about the activation of dual loyalty. They were quite frankly worried as well about losing their place as the predominant and most important Jewish community. Back then in the late 40s and early 50s today. Things are very different.

There are many more Jews in Israel than it are in America. The number of Jews in Israel is steadily increasing while the number of Jews in America is slowly decreasing the power structure between the two communities is changing and that is also very hard.

Understandably for Americans is to wrap their heads around. Yeah, and again this is from the inside make sense something's not familiar to a thing they try to understand these things, especially evangelical Christians that are looking to such a biblical grade and of course Jerusalem, Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. So it's so important to understand these dynamics but in the book, and we've got maybe two minutes before before the break, so we may have to come back to this in the book, you do deal with the question of of people or religion who and what are the juice of the perennial question who is a Jew.

This obviously ties in with the question of our unity are united based on religious practice. Are we united based on ethnicity. Is there something cosmic transcendent that united so how do you answer the question I would not regard Christianity are very different would be very hard for somebody to say deeply passionate evangelical Christian.

But I don't believe all in God that would want to make note that what is actually strangely made substrate.

The Christian era, that's perfectly possible. A person can say I'm deeply committed to being a Jew, but I don't believe in God because Judaism does have a religious component that is up about our national component of the people with the memory as a way of life and so Jews in Israel tend to focus more on the national and Jews in America tend to focus less on peoplehood and more on religious traditions. So in a lot of ways, the Judaism's of Israel and America have become very very different which makes the two communities.

Understanding each other even more challenging which is why I wrote the book so the two communities could begin to understand each other and hopefully begin to build bridges together. I since the book is we stand divided the rift between American cheese and Israel got a bunch more questions in a few more minutes with our guest Daniel Gordis Daniel is it true that your grandfather was the JT's Prof. Robert, my grandfather got it so I just published a Job commentary I've been working on for years but decades ago that I think was the first academic book that I read on Job your grandfather's commentary on Job special studies that that furthered my interest in the book of Job, so he still making an impact out all these years later just want to let you know that after about 27 years ago but yes I would make him very, very glad and I had to cover his major focus Job and Ecclesiastes and still do use is something that you found. Oh yeah and and all these years later, it was useful when doing my commentary and translation all right will be right back with Daniel for this book stand divided. So what happens when the ideal of Zionism runs into the messiness of history straight out of the stand for cleansing and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends.

Bottom our questions right now want to spend the rest of the time I have with author respected Jewish thinker Daniel Gordis's new book. We stand divided just one more point I want to stay with before we get into the intersection of Zionism with with reality of you say in the book of Zionism's deeply rooted particularism emerge from the Hebrew Bible, American universalism reflected the worldview of the Christian Bible. So how does that break down for Jews living in America today are they stuck between that particularism and universalism between universalism, in particular the non-American today would not say that there stuck between the worldviews of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible that I cry they would play is that there stuck between the particularism of the Jewish people and the Jewish people tradition of taking care of itself first and then take care of others and go universalism of America, you know, the Statue of Liberty, give me your tired, your for your hungry your teeming masses yearning to breathe free America with an invitation to everyone where a developer declaration said that his Majesty's government viewed with favor creating an outline, a national home for the Jewish people so that American universalism there is a Zionist particularism, and yet I think very much Americans is still part of me knows to all right so when the state of Israel disbursed a set of the ashes of the Holocaust.

There is a rare moment of perhaps more international sympathy for the Jewish people, and there is a dream.

There is an ideal Zionist dream and and how this will be good for all involved in it. Even the David Ben-Gurion's the Golden ears appear appealing to the Arab neighbor stay this room for all of us in line in history happens and not everybody wants to get along nicely and in that the dream gets very messy.

So where do we go with that I mean is, is it a discouraging time for Israelis to say we can't realize our ideal or with the ultra-Orthodox community growing in their particular bank that that that pulls away from the ideal, where, how you move forward with the realities of life in a in a fallen, broken world. Well, that will follow broken world. Countries all over the world and all confidence so critically important question.

I would say on the on the ultra-Orthodox issue, much more of an optimist than other people are. I believe that they can be alluded into the workplace and gradually build probably or they might be able to to lower their birthrate and begin to become much more active parts of the economy. If they don't, and if I'm wrong then it will be very hard for Israel to support that community in our economist to argue Israel could simply crumble under their weight more burning question for American Jews when it comes to their relationship with Israel.

If the conflict as you point out, you Israelis are non-by the conflict.

At this point I would say they feel that Israel been an enormous success is been a thriving economic success that is given will burst through the Jewish people to the Hebrew language to Hebrew culture to Israeli culture of the one major thing that we've not been able to do is to get with the Palestinians and the main reason for that I believe is an Israeli even though I actually favor of the Palestinian people. Having the ability to self determine to have some sort of autonomous state, call it whatever you want. I don't want to occupy them or store or live have been live under our thumb but they have to be willing to say that they don't want to destroy the state of Israel.

And if you listen to, successful other quite articulate better not stop the armed insurrection until they've destroyed a Jewish state until they change there's really not much that we can do except to hold on till Israelis aren't desperate, but they're kind of numb and tired and just wish that the Palestinians would want a better future for themselves just the way that the early founders of Israel created a better future for their children. In the book by Efrain Kirsch Palestine betrayed he basically says it's the failure of the leadership from the 30s on really that that has betrayed the people and that the Palestinian people have become victims and and obviously your average person just wants to live a normal life does not have an active hostile political agenda list or put into this one be able to have a future and and raise a family and so on. So it's it's difficult when you have these conflicting ideologies when you're you imagine your average Israeli and probably the Palestinian family growing up just like to live normal lives, but the realities are what they are. Radical Islam is what it is. So as an American Israeli Jew.

What do you want Americans used to hear and understand and and what is the way forward that you painted in your book.

The book is that American Jews tend to look at the conflict with the Palestinians on the civil rights issue over civil rights of the critically important thing that all people should have a right to all the basics that society can offer them like Dennis will just work something out with the Palestinians. After all, we've made progress on civil rights in America. We made peace with career with Vietnam with Germany with Japan, etc. but I think American Jews don't understand is how profoundly ideologically committed our leadership of the Palestinian leadership is to the destruction of Israel, so I want Americans is understand about Israel is a better facing an implacable enemy deleted Israel very little options to quote on quote and the occupation in certain things I want Israelis to understand that when American Jews say end the occupation. They're not really trying to be callous about Israel there just reflecting an American view that all problems have solutions to which he pending the kind of talk past each other. The point of the book with the help American Jews and Israelis begin to have a real conversation about Christian observers of the relationship try to understand help them understand better why American Jews and Israelis I have have such a rough relationship that was the good particular point, yeah, and I'm commonly asked why American cheese vote in such liberal ways where evangelicals and socially conservative again, that's difficult for them to understand, so I imagine even looking at this dialogue is as Christian readers read, we stand divided that little just give them more insight into the dynamics of of the Jewish people and and the nation. So last last question for you, then what do you want evangelical Christians who were probably of of all Christians in America. The ones most focused on Israel, praying for Israel going on tourist Israel and having an interest. Some of the superficial prophetic way in all this is just the fulfillment of prophecy, but many others in a real heartfelt way, especially those that know the horrible history of anti-Semitism in the church and they grieve over it and that they want to show genuine Christian love for for evangelical Christians in America interacting with the American Jewish community. How can they be a help.

How can they be part of the solution as opposed to just these curiosities to the Jewish community for managers. Evangelical Christians are hardly your curiosity.

I think Americans are certainly many of them understand full well the enormous support that evangelical church has different Israel relate politically diplomatically and so forth are deeply deeply grateful for that to carry up-to-date, I think it's really very important that evangelicals understand that many of us to understand how critically important baby to find out. For example, certainly understands the critical importance of evangelical community and respected deeply. In fact, one of the irony of this is that he sometimes murmurs to his friend, but he can count more on support from evangelical community that he can from the American Jewish community now don't think that event Christians are to be able to get Americans used to support Israel by virtue of a theological argument because Americans are like that before.

Don't really operate quite that theologically in the Orthodox community.

They do have bare their views politically are much closer to those of evangelical community, but I think that evangelical community can model to Americans is a formal support of Israel, which is not racist it's not it's not denying the importance of the Palestinians, or of their right to live dignified lives as well, but simply if she really did believe that the Jews based on their history as you so rightly said, unfortunately the Jewish people. History is proven that the Jews need a place to call their army just yesterday in Germany, you know, again, Europe is not changed as muchly. Wish that it in the United States is not so clear what's to happen. The relationship between Jews in America. So I think evangelicals who would simply remind Jewish people that Jewish history, makes a compelling argument for a sovereign Jewish state to be doing as much help for the American Jewish community and they have long since been doing for the state of Israel, politically, diplomatically, politically in support excellent yeah and thank you for correcting my curiosity, I'm quite aware that I had read a few articles recently where skepticism was raised about evangelical support of Israel which comes up time to time. Drafts of the right and thank you for correcting me on that. Actually we got a minute left the key could you try to explain to our listeners how there are religious Jews in Israel who are anti-Zionist.

Simple and unfortunate I find it very fair that and I find it a little heartbreaking but there is a path to the problem with that said that Jews are not supposed to hurry the hands of history that we should be willing to accept God's decree and that God will change history when God wants to and so therefore the exile into Europe over ever starting in 70 CE, with the destruction of the second Temple was God's will and they believe it was the Jewish people responsibility simply to wait for God to bring them back and therefore for Zionist the quote "move the clock move the hands of the clock on their own and not wait for God is somehow breaking or denying God's will that I would actually say as a as a religious Jew is also very much design is that I actually believe that the Zionist movement is God's work on earth. In other words that I think you we just sit around and wait. We did something, but I believe we were fulfilling God's dream for the Jewish people and therefore I see no contradiction between this guy that the view of the Talmud and the work of Zionism but not everybody agrees on the most hardline people made by the lawyer's are changing slowly.

The Baylor curiosity. They are actually yet, the curiosity and are much more small minority than anything. They are gradually coming around. But you're right, there are still some who insist that Zionism was born in sin because we should've waited for God. The favor by after the Holocaust. That was a pretty painful and hard thing for Jews to do so they put even harder for estate, but that advance their question yeah and it's a great incident this Rios in the Talmud really you could say there's no violation here because this is the hand of God and in really, and the ashes of the Holocaust who could've ever dreamed that there would be a thriving state of Israel. Just a few years later, Daniel, thank you for putting so much work into your books. It's an honor to have you on the program really appreciated for me. Thank you and love all of your high. Thank you sir. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown welcome is call on this thoroughly Jewish Thursday Jewish related questions you have. If you for criticisms if you've heard things about my beliefs are teaching that you struggle with or differ with or have a question about call to get clarity by the way, God willing, I will be on Adam Green's YouTube channel to talk about the no hide laws. I think in a couple of weeks and then gobbling by the end of the year, joining Steve and John of the noon, and sorry for mispronounced any of the names there later in the year that's just what works on their schedule. Some eager to do it and let's put the information on the table and let's graciously challenge one another. If we have differences and try to sort out why this this much. It's important for you to know this on them covering up there.

There is there's nothing I'm I'm hiding for everyone that everyone that posts a comment why you lying I'm not lying.

I'm telling you the understanding I have after examining these issues.

Look at these issues.

Being aware of some of them for for many years growing up knowing about the so-called no hide laws with finding out later when I started interacting with rabbis as a believer, but as I am covering up our hiding whenever and when people posts. These utterly pathetic ridiculous, so you're not a follower of Jesus like what because I differ with you about an alleged plot to kill Christians by Jews under the no hide laws give me a break please. But feel free to differ based on information you have work things you think you fall into place, or some prophetic scenario fun. We discussed that happy to discuss that 866-34-TRUTH's so look just on the heels of my discussion with Daniel Gordis when you read headlines of of an attack on a synagogue in Germany and in here by an anti-semi and any wants to coach it would better day when the city slam Jews that was translated from German into English assume he posted German.

This is manifested as reading in English that would better day than Yom Kippur. When you have Jews in synagogue would normally be there in the tragic irony that Jews in a synagogue in Germany are protected because they have to have such high security because they know their lives could be threatened by anti-Semitism that is the diabolical nature of anti-Semitism keeps rising and rising and rising unless it is fought spiritually. It will not be pushed back and and you can almost look at it that that's the default mentality of the human race to be Jew hating and to believe all types of conspiratorial lies about the Jewish people, and as us. Many times Jews like everyone else, except more so strengths and weaknesses like everybody else, except the strengths exaggerated the weaknesses are exaggerated that this seems to be the way it is right, but what when when you have to go to a synagogue service in the country and have such high levels of security to because you're expecting you might be attacked and the security that Israel lives under you come to me. Come with me to Israel gobbling next year are or Israel trip you want to miss this may 2020 filling up the second bus narrowly taken to bus so please sign up if you can today go to ask Dr. Brown.org and skate your brown.org to find out more. You see it right on the homepage holy fire in the holy land. So when you go there you feel amazingly safe. You feel incredibly safe. That's just because Israel works so hard day and night. With so many of its resources and so much of its population to keep everyone safe. When you read these headlines synagogue attacking Germany and Yom Kippur. It's very jarring and and and now it's been several synagogue attacks, let alone the anti-Semitic attacks in countries like France and attacks in cemeteries for years. There is I've said, as I was as I was updating our hands are stained with blood. The updated, revised, expanded edition, which is now available okay when when when I was updating the book. It was jarring because the things that I wrote about years and years ago and am now writing about them a fresh and and their their happening in the unfolding things we want about years ago are happening with even more frequency now very very jarring right 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go to the phone. Starting with Richard in Canada. Thanks for holding Richard walking to the line of fire. I carried on the brown very well, thank you.

Want to thank you, starting off, I devoured all your material. I think I don't know.

Listen to a number resources, but your material help me greatly since the one next to come and visit when you are in Vancouver a couple that I could man sorry tonight. Again that's that's a long journey to get there. Not sure when I'll be back but we can connect by phone on the air.

So that's great. Yeah, actually, my question is okay.

I've been on a search about them. She were the last couple months I have literally devoured the prophet inside out and down the more moronic. I probably spent two months especially focus on the 4249 6140, 50 and 53 and down-I gotta say I really, really couple days ago I got down at night. Really just couldn't deny so I asked, forgive me and to be my Messiah, my Savior due to that, but there was one rich please assist you this what what your own background and upbringing.

To be honest, I was raised in a Christian home, then I was challenged when I came I was trying to years ago trying to evangelize to a Orthodox Jew ran across counter counter missionary material and then I was really really confused. I didn't know what to do and so that this kind of let me back to trying to go into the original Hebrew and to start from scratch and cannot just go and let the text speak for itself.

Yeah and I and you know, Richard. Gotta keep reading it over and over and over because we get used to certain things clichés we hear in a certain way putting in a certain context and and I had to do that in in some interaction within the ultra-Orthodox Jewish colleagues. Well opponent but but friend counter missionary and we were looking at the prophecies about the Messiah and then got intensely into Isaiah chapters 40 to 55 and back and forth with each other so I this even reset one over it again and again and again and again and I read it and I listen to it and the more I did the more the prophecies just chomped out that the more undeniable. I mean, I knew it anyway. But the, the more freshly undeniable it was that Jesus issue is, is the prophesied that the prophesied Messiah of Israel. But anyway, but back to I just had to throw that in yet why only one thing Otto and I think a real catcher from one night special. I prayed and I have a sham. I said please that I really want an answer. I said I need understanding. I think I'm ready to do anything for you.

I have but I want to understand clearly. Because I want to serve you and then I guess that when I really went that night and I looked at Isaiah 61 and I just thought that you know the good Lord is upon the Lord's anointed man, first thing that hit me was that that terminal was used only about a single person not used and this is the person that's bring restoration to Zion, and specifically but when I for the efforts I never saw that night when I saw the Lord mourners in Zion immediately. Zechariah 12 hit me and I just got like right then. Something told me this is the morning it's talking about. It's talking about when they're going to mourn for the one who they pierced yeah and he's going to come and beautify and restore the nation's life is that while in it. Then they put into law else. This is the one who sets the captives free. This is the one that Isaiah 49 talk about the one that stores the tribes of Jacob only thing that got me go is not that was accident be my question today was I noticed the term where it says on Isaiah 40 not 42 six and 49 eight where it says covenant of the people. Now I five. Trying to learn Hebrew.

Right now, right biblical Hebrew. But I am not versed enough of something not they say when it comes Isaiah 40 98, the covenant people and then your course you look at either for doing the same to Knox and some of them say the people covenant and then you go looking Christian Bible tenant for the company for the people and I just want to call in about the question asked what is the true keep on this.

You know yeah you what a great question. At first I love the story and having having come to the reality of what Scripture says it's brought you into that encounter with God where you ask and receive forgiveness. So this should make you a strong witness having gone on the journey you have your your faith will be even stronger and innately God uses you to help other Jewish people come to faith in Jesus the Messiah. So it was later that it it wasn't just that Dr. Brown when I called upon him. A man came across my path who obviously he could have known, and he just came in Jesus name and equipment everything going on my life, including minimum yeah prayed for me in that name and I was completely healed of schizophrenia. Seriously. Dakota yes and Fleming and this man. He is pray for people with HIV. Stage IV cancer and so I may wish to sign after sign Sr. Richard how how long did you suffer with schizophrenia and can insert my whole ICD yeah obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Mobile sites are run faster on my end and went how long did you get for free. Recently recently. It's all been. I mean it.

I won't have your questions in the back my head recently this last year I got down and not just credible buckle down and I just said I am going to get when you listen to the counter missionary they come from a very boxed angle where they stay within the range of their arguments, they don't really want you to go too much off topic and go read the rest of the Tanakh for yourself and and I found that it you know so I decided I'm just go read the whole thing yeah and I read and I read and I read and like I said that's what brought me to Yahoo and even I was in understanding this term.

Covenant of the people. But the thing is looking in context in Isaiah 49, 61, when putting the servant together and then I don't know like I really, really an individual. So all all sling he brought you decided to break Richard. I rejoice with you in the best thing, the word of God point DE to the resurrected Messiah and then in the power of the resurrected Messiah Jesus is alive today. God send someone over the spirits ministry miracle that in the naturalist cost. He is alive friends. He is risen. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown and voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 866343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown welcome that six so back to Richard in Canada when you have the time sir please shoot us an email to our website.

There's a contact place there and you just send us an email with your testimony. What you shared with us here if you put in writing in a page or two that that would just be awesome and we had to see that fruit for the glory of the Lord and were here to help if ongoing questions come up. You can write to that same email address and and between a colleague, a couple colleagues and the key questions technical difficulty are two questions we we get answers to you. So in short, really about the only time that you are going to find the translation covenant people is in Jewish translations that read it as such.

But it in Isaiah 42, six reading from the Hebrew on the other nine credits a critique but said express exactly Edessa so I am the Lord. I've called you in righteousness, and I will take hold strength in your hands that serve, and and I'll preserve you fitness, the fleet on the Oracle game and I'll give you a point. You as a literally a covenant of the people, and a light for the nations so they're the most natural way to read the Hebrew is I am making you a covenant for the people and a light for the nations. The NET the new English translation, which really tries to be very meticulous with the of the Hebrew and and and has extensive translation notes never used it a go online and type in NET Bible net NET Bible and and you get a website that comes up and it has with the translation over 60,000 notes translation notes textual notes background notes things like that, why, and it will get it.

If you find it really, really helpful and some of it is in real depth. Some of it is is more explanatory the simpler level but the NET translates with a covenant mediator for people and a light to the nations so the most natural way to read it in is what's called the Hebrew construct, so you you have this of this right yet. The first word and it is that this of the second Lord. So it is that preheat the covenant of people on or sometimes politically it would mean the people so the Messiah of the Messiah is God's covenantal mediator for the people of Israel and a light for the nations and is a covenantal mediator for the people of Israel, because God has a covenant with Israel. Yes at a covenant with the nations so he expresses his covenantal love and salvific work through the Messiah for Israel and he also serves as like for the nations.

So, that's the most natural in transit. II revisited this a few months ago and some of my intensive dialogue with counter missionary Israel Blumenthal and this is one of the things I refocused on and I saw no good reason to read it as a covenant people, especially when it seems very clear to me in these passages that an individual is being spoken of, and not the nation, and that also make a decisive all right. So when you're reading the Hebrew syntax. I get that way to give her syntax would covenant of the people. Okay, I mean yeah really I couldn't.

I couldn't see it making sense any other way because when you read like is that when you read the rest of the passages over and over and over again and then you look at Isaiah 1 it pretty clear that it's the same person it in an accent that absolutely is and is no question that it's the same person and it's an individual. There that that has a mission to the nation hey Richard, thank you for the call and in the wonderful news and we are here help you and strengthen you in your walk with God. God bless you man.

Thank you all right what it what it a great call the intellectual search, coupled with the divine encounter while that's that's he loved all your heart and your mind. All right, 866-34-TRUTH, Vicki Lynn and Ashley still there. I am here are great. Thank you for holding through the whole show. Welcome to the broadcast.

Yeah, I'm doing great. Thanks, Francie shalom hello I am a 63-year-old messianic Jewish body in North Carolina have a very quick two-part question.

The first part in Romans 1116 through 24. Who or what is the root spoken out.

I see believers who adhere to the law of Moses and they say that Gentiles are grafted into the root Tuesday, state Israel, that they believe that there grafted into the Mosaic covenant that supports their observance to the law. They also use that consider themselves spiritual Israelite and I especially hear this from Hebrew roots or Torah observant Gentile, yet I know from my own study and as well as your teaching dental.Gentiles are not spiritual Israel, and neither of us are under the law of Moses.

If we are born again not often see believers to say that the root in Romans 11 is yes you and not Israel and the Gentiles are under the new covenant and not Israel not grafted into the Mosaic covenant, the first part of my question is, who or what is the root in Romans 11 and the second part is, can you please explain to me how many, how so many sincere born-again Rockville believers who love you Sheila and seek his wisdom can be the same Scriptures and come to such different and opposite understandings of its meaning regarding the law of Moses and the lives of believers.

Thank you so much. Sure thing.

So the first part of the question in terms of who is the root what is the root that's spoken of in context. It's not just the nation of Israel, certainly not just that the branches are or individual Israelites so that means that in that sense it's so all the branches represent the people of Israel and so the root has to be more than that.

It is the spiritual heritage it. It is the patriarchs.

It is the promises it is that the messianic hope through Yeshua that is the larger tree so it is Israel's tree, but Israel is not the root of the tree. The root is the promises of God, the riches of his covenant expressed through the Messiah so it's kind of in all of the above but it is definitely not just the nation of Israel itself the symbol number two there is no passage in the Bible that works less for people to say that we are spiritual Israelites in Romans 11 because Paul says I am writing to you Gentiles as much assigned the apostle to the Gentiles. I make much of my ministry. So if there was ever a place to say you are spiritual Israelites, you are no longer Gentiles, that would be the place to say it but he says the opposite number three there is on a verse anywhere in the New Testament that says that any believer is under the Mosaic covenant, the Sinai covenant. We are now under the new and better covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31 versus 31 to 34 and reiterated he was eight and Hebrews 10 and inaugurated fully inaugurated with the death of the Messiah at the Last Supper, when he makes clear that this this is the new covenant inaugurated with my body and with my blood. So we are not under the Sinai covenant if we were under the Sinai covenant and blood sacrifices would still be required if we were under the Sinai covenant and we would be looking for Levitical priesthood rather than a milky scented priest it. If you are under the Sinai covenant then we would consciously be falling short because of justification by works in looking for the day of atonement for annual atonement were not under the Sinai covenant all those things were types and shadows leading to the fullness that comes in the Messiah is what Paul says in Colossians 2. The Sabbath was the shadow of the reality is found in the Messiah so Jesus does not abolish the law of the prophets.

He fulfills it he brings it to its full meaning.

Even the biblical calendar is in the is in the process of being fulfilled with the spring feast being fulfilled with Messiah's death and resurrection sitting in the spirit and the fall feast will be fulfilled with his return and the repentance of Israel and in the ingathering of the nations so it is Scriptures very clear on on that and for people to say that all Christians in particular Gentile Christians are obligated to observe the Sinai covenant is a gross. This understanding of Scripture and does not lead to greater intimacy with God does not lead to greater exultation of Yeshua does not lead to more effective evangelism does not lead to more fullness in the spirit now any believer is free to signal if God gave Israel dietary laws must be good reason for not I want to keep them or I'm more at home following the biblical calendar, then at a later church calendar or American calendar fine so as to your other question, and I've got a minute and 1/2 and keep China goes quickly as I can as to the other question how can so many people read the Scriptures and come to different conclusions. While it's on many different issues you got Catholics and Protestants and Greek orthodoxy. You've you've got Lutherans and Presbyterians, and Baptists and Methodists. You've got charismatics and non-charismatics in the Calvinist Arminians you got many many different areas that you got millennialist and post the Leninist premillennialists and dispensational's so we have differences which is telling us that we have to humble ourselves and recognize that no one of us has all the right understanding of every doctrine, secondary, tertiary doctrine. That being said I would dare say that if we will remain in intimate communion with God. So have a vibrant personal relationship with God and diligently earnestly study on our faces on our knees with the Bible open and really seek him over many days and months and years of combining the intense serious study with spiritual intimacy and worship and love for God in prayer that God will lead us in and we will not have confusion over these areas. I say many of us fail, make that effort and wild paying the entrance of Twitter question leave these cumulative