Dr. Brown Dialogues with Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Pesach Wolicki

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network about to have a candid conversation with Orthodox Jewish rabbi Pesach will lick the stage for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH your again is Dr. Michael Brown high-strength for joining us on thoroughly Thursday on the line of fire. I'm delighted to have a guest coming away from Israel today, rabbi Pesach Lewicky. I became especially familiar with his work as I was looking at some writings about the new anti-Semitism that's rising and found some of his insights to be tremendous so that he was involved in Jewish Christian relations and then we intersect on a couple of other planes in a been wanting to connect we we finally got beyond email to talk by videoconference online last night midnight my time or letting my time 5 AM his time. We got ready to say let's let's do a whole show today so if you have a question for Rabbi will lick. It's possible it's possible it was time for some questions 866-34-TRUTH but there's so much that we want to talk about. Honestly, candidly, that if you can find really helpful, constructive, so be sure to share this broadcast with your friends. Let me give you a quick intro part of Rabbi will lick his lengthy biography he serves as Executive Director of Arturo Stone Center for Jewish Christian understanding and cooperation. He also works his academic consultant lecture for the international Fellowship of Christians and Jews leading voice for the growing Jewish Christian relationship is a frequent contributor on American family radios Middle East report he host the shoulder to shoulder podcast with custody agreed is author of the book cup of salvation devotional study of Psalms 113 through 118 Rabbi will lick you lives with his wife Kate and their eight children in Beit Shamash in Israel Rabbi will lick you welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, thank you, Dr. Brown, the honor and pleasure to join you and I agree with.

Over the long time, we were kind of corresponding by email, and needing to get together and I'm so happy were finally doing this yes is thrilled to do it so it's just to make things clear your Orthodox rabbi you're not a a a Christian loves the Jewish people.

You're not a messianic Jewish rabbi nurse Dr. Anna just tussled more about your Orthodox upbringing and background short while a common Orthodox rabbi and you know my upbringing was really in the Orthodox Jewish Bible. My father is an Orthodox rabbi as well.

I grew up in Montréal in Canada.

My dad was a was the rabbi of a fairly large synagogue of enlargement Jewish standards in Montréal and in my upbringing. Pretty much everyone I interacted with was an Orthodox Jew and it other than in a not even I didn't even really interact with with non-Orthodox Jews and I grew up really in an Orthodox Jewish community. I went to an Orthodox Jewish school.

That's what my friends were my summer camp my extracurricular activities growing up is Academy everything was pretty much Orthodox Jews other than occasional teachers that I had in school who were not Jewish. Those are the only people who were not Jewish that I ever even met and so I got to Montréal. I then went to high school similar situation. Orthodox yeshiva high school, which is really an immersive Jewish high school in in Toronto and then I went to Israel. Kind of like a normal workday in Orthodox Jewish circles.

The usual rite of passage is after high school to go off to Israel to study and yeshiva which is like I was ready. She was not exactly the same in the seminary or studying up and coming to study stellar studies full-time like my parents had already moved to Israel at that point they moved Israel out. When I was in my teens, and then I came back to Canada, went to college at New York University and that's where for the first time a really started having relationships of people who were were not Jewish. And if you want to go to the halt. The whole is not that awful long way. We got the bona fides there so that I just wanted people to understand how you neuropathy EE even lived yeshiva for your Sears immersive day and night rabbinic tradition, rabbinic study, so how does a rabbi like you end up being a major proponent for deepening understanding between Jews and Christians is a great question. No before 2015 when I left my career in Jewish education where I was a rough yeshiva which is like a Dean of a of a yeshiva were basically our focus and it was a really academic style yeshiva heavy focus on on not in a building skills and in ancient Aramaic and study of Talmud with all the commentaries and all we did all day and that's really what I was known for in the Jewish educational world I was known for certain certain teaching methods that I developed in terms of teaching Talmud and the commentaries not very and are not very exciting as a guest speaker anywhere outside a very limited audience and when I left that and went full force into full-time Jewish Christian relations and flying off evangelical churches that you know to speak their many people in the Jewish community and many my friends said to me like what's this like you're leaving Jewish education and are you doing this and I said to them, as of the only people who are not at all surprised by what I'm doing are my wife and all my students all the years that I was teaching and yeshiva while as I talked about the importance of this relationship all the time.

The students who I had in my sheave over the more than a decade that we had the yeshiva. My students and some of them are now rabbis and teachers in their own right. They want surprised at all that they knew that this was a direction I was going in, and many of them hold hold is the same theology as part as central to their understanding of of Judaism really, because really this for me the importance of the Jewish Christian relationship speaks to the definition of Judaism. Now where does it come from, I will give you that story. Are you interested and wanted course I erupting since I work go for so earlier on I got a bit of interesting history.

I spent a few years as a political activist still very interested in very public politics. You mentioned that on a regular contributor John driving the last report, which is not really. I mean I always throw in some Bible stuff and some theology because I think that that stuff we need to involve our biblical viewpoint in our in our political views. We have to, but I've always been involved in politics and when I was in college I was. I was very involved in an pro-Israel activism, and more importantly in Canada. The time of fighting anti-Semitism. We had issues with neo-Nazis on my campus.

I was a bit of a student leader on my campus in terms of of activism and go to class very much.

And then after college I became a full-time Jewish activist I worked for a Rabbi Avi Weiss in New York. I do not have you heard of him. Of course I used to those rights. I was I was his right-hand man for a year doing a lot of different Jewish activism combating the Nation of Islam anti-Semitism and that we went out there Jew member that he had a protest at an Auschwitz where the Catholic Church ability fastens analysis. Absolutely I was part of that process. So I was very balding in Jewish political activism really defending the Jewish people against anti-Semitism in such things and then I moved to Israel in 1994 and assumed leadership of an organization called the international coalition for missing Israeli soldiers and this was a this is a nonprofit, it was a lobby group. Basically, an activist lobby group that was started by the families of Israeli MIAs who had been taken prisoner and gone missing. They'd been taken by terrorist groups in areas skirmishes in Lebanon during the 80s and their whereabouts were unknown.

We knew the terrorist groups held them and I I took over that organization. We had rallies and lobbying.

A lot of interesting experiences I met a lot of famous politicians which wasn't really such not all cracked up to be, but I was I was very involved in that because we were always looking for supporters who would help us promote the issue of the missing Israeli soldiers at the time it was the beginning of the Oslo peace process in the Clinton Administration when they were negotiating with Yasser Arafat in the Israeli government and at the time the. The right wing in Israel didn't want there to be any negotiations at all on the left wing in Israel didn't want anything getting in a way that in the way of the negotiations and our cause left and didn't like it because it was in the way of the negotiations in the right wing didn't like it because they didn't want us talking to anybody. We wanted the Israeli government to demand information or the return of these of these soldiers and at around that time and that in the early to mid 90s there was some Christian Zionist organizations that were operating in Jerusalem. The international impact of the international Christian Embassy bridges for peace. There were number of Christian organizations in Jerusalem, and back then it wasn't like today where there's a lot of cooperation and interaction between Christian groups and gives back then there was it with virtually no interaction between the Jewish community and these Christian groups and a number of these Christian activists from these organizations reached out to our organization. At the time and said hey would like to help you your causes a humanitarian cause it doesn't it's not right wing or left wing which was exactly a problem but it's not right or the left when we want to help you.

And when we were the care about these boys and at the time I was like Christians want anything to do with Chris. Why would I want to talk to Christians in all it all I've heard is that they just want to convert me and another. They're all just you know you know I don't want I wanted him to Christians and I spoke to my father. My father, as I mentioned is rabbis prominent Orthodox rabbi and Amara went to talk to him and he was like well it was kind of suspicious and I said look, you know I'm to go spend some time with them to go see what this is all about and he's like okay be careful here because that's really what Chris is that better standard that was definitely the attitude in the Jewish community and still is today in many parts of the Jewish and so I started we started doing some events together and they were and they were promoting our cause, and I went to the states and attended some events with with some of these organizations.

Christian Zionism was very small at the time compared to what it is today is a movement, and the more I spent time with these people, the more I said to myself this is not what I expected. I found no there there face and the piety and the sincerity in everything that they that these Christians did to be refreshing and to be something that was inspiring and I started it started making me think about the role of Christianity, and in the world from a Jewish perspective. Melanie also add in that I was always kind of a scholarly kid. I'm not saying that as you note to to brag but I was always involved in Tom's study, even all these years I was a political activist.

I would spend half the day studying studying Torah studying, and studying Jewish sources. I was kind of a Rabbi and I had all the makings of a future rabbi, except that I don't intention at the time of going to rabbinical school. I just grew up that way listeners understand the whole family registry to hold that thought right there. We get a break.

We come back let's find out about how you Jewish studies.

This interaction is Christians, then I think are our listeners and viewers will be interested to know how it is that you sent out about me and then the press each other on the questions.

He is a ready state right back with Rabbi Tessa.

We will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown (two are thoroughly tested is voice to the growing commission Christian relationship relationships, executive director of Arturo Stone Center for Jewish Christian understanding and cooperation to rabbi with yet. I know you can get into great depth here, but the short story of how your intensive Talmudic studies and in studies of Bible prepared you for now relating more deeply with Christians. Your meeting them. You're interacting with them.

Your outside of the Orthodox bubble you're finding them to be sincere people, people of faith, not just trying to set you up proselytize you that the they generally do care there Christian scientists because they they love Israel and the Jewish people. So how is it that things were studying though now tie in with it.

I would think going the other direction. I would be your normal assumption is going this direction. What what is interesting, because around the time that all this was going on in our act. Like I said I would always no matter what I was doing whatever job I had. I always spent a few hours a day studying studying your Jewish texts and was during that time listed in 1995 or something and I was studying the works of Maimonides. One day the middle of all this, and I came across a passage in the works of Maimonides, Maimonides understandably was. He was he's it's no exaggeration. And it's not even Kenny called an opinion. I think every traditional Jew would agree with this is the most influential, most consequential Jewish theologian and legal scholar. The most important rabbi since the destruction of the second Temple till today. I mean he's the most is most influential rabbinic thinker. That doesn't mean that we that we follow him in everything that we accept those opinions. He's kind of the equivalent of of the of Augustine lived in the 12th-century and I was reading between the works Maimonides and Maimonides very famously was very harsh in Christianity.

He lived, and again he lived in the 12th-century.

The only Christianity that he that was that was pretty much visible to him was like medieval Catholicism and he did not view it positively. He viewed it as a form of idolatry. But at the same time.

In his writings, he writes explicitly that the purpose of Christianity is to pave the path for the ultimate coming of the Messiah and to lead the entire world to worship one God together and he quotes the verse from Zephaniah chapter 3 that all the nations will come together to call on the name of the Lord and to serve him shoulder to shoulder and and he explains that he then goes on to explain that the way this works a member I was sitting reading this I was in Jerusalem I was sitting in a study hall during the know at the end of the workday. I would go studying.

I was reading this passage in Maimonides, and he speaks about how in the end times of these these that Christians will because they've been exposed to the Bible because they know the Bible may know the God of Israel in all the stories they know all and all the content of the Bible that will lay the groundwork for them to be with us at the end times. It's basically what he says and that and really that's with the redemption of the world is all about. It's everyone serving God of Israel together and so I was reading this I said okay, wait a second I got a bite. I've got about 800 years, eight or 900 years on Maimonides let's fast-forward where am I right now I'm in the land of Israel know I'm one of millions of Jews have been in gather the prophecies of Deuteronomy chapter 30 that the people of Israel, even if were scattered to the ends of the heavens will come back to our land and take possession of it and become more numerous and more prosperous than our ancestors. In those words are written in the future tense in the Bible today. They are fact they have happened in here I am in the long as in the beginnings of that long-awaited redemption of Israel and hear these Christians who love the God of Israel, and they know every word of the Bible and their devoted to the God of Israel, and when Zachariah writes about how multitudes among the nations are going to stream to Jerusalem at the time of the ingathering to worship the God of Israel, to seek the God of Israel and Jerusalem. Like wait a second. If I am one of the people, Jew who was fulfilling Deuteronomy 30 by being in gathered there is no doubt in my mind that these Christians are refilling Zachariah and Zephaniah and in Isaiah as as members of the nations or court order or Psalms which speaks of all the nations, praising God for the kindnesses that have been done to the people of Israel out. I don't think my great-grandparents who were being chased around by Nazis in Europe could proceed a situation where were multitudes among the nations were praising the God of Israel for being so good to the Jews.

But these people are doing and and entering that it is one of the political events I went to I flew to Washington DC in 1995 for the first gathering of the leaders of Christian Zionist organizations was called voices United for Israel at the place in DC. There were probably about 100 people there. Max and it was led by the Christian Israel Public affairs committee, which I don't think exists anymore. The guy by the name of Richard Hellman Dick Hellman do you ever note to Kelman heard he ran his I'm not sure if this yet. He ran his lobby. This Christian lobby for Israel, which I guess became obsolete after Christians United for Israel and all the other things that are going on back then it was a small conference and Frank Gaffney spoke there was all these different political people who spoke in the middle of the whole thing in between two political briefings and I was there just to push the issue of the missing Israeli soldiers and between two of the security of political briefings. Dick Hellman gets up and he says I like everyone to please stand up and would like to pray and he says a prayer for Israel and at the end of the prayer. He then leads everyone in saying the Ship My Niece Trl., Adonai is okay no I deny the religion of the Lord is our God, the Lord is one, and I'm just like about the faint and significant wait a second. The most the most important commentary on the Bible for juice bar none is Rashi Rashi was a rabbi who lived in the in the 11th century and he wrote a commentary that is still studying daily budgets the most is the most famous commentary on the tower that verse hero, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one, is the most famous verse in the toe shoes Rashi's commentary on that verse says as follows. Moses said to Israel hero Israel speaking to them 3300 and something years ago is his hero Israel right now the Lord is our God and the nations do not know but in the future.

The Lord is one. He will be the one God over all. In other words what Rashi's commentary on this verse is understanding of the verse hero is of the Lord is our God, the Lord is one, is not that it's a statement of faith or not only a statement of faith, but that it's a statement of mission. It's a statement of the trajectory. What is the goal of Judaism. What is the goal of the people of Israel water. What are we, what's the game or play a nonsignificant hold on a second. Rashi writes that in the middle ages in implants around the time of the Crusade. Rashi even lived through a couple of the Crusades and I'm sitting here in a room filled with Christians who are praising the God of Israel. I like wait a second sub all these things, some knowing these sources. Knowing Maimonides knowing Rashi the whole education that I received combined with my interactions with these Christians and with the work that I was doing to make me realize that that there is something very important that I still think I still think about 25 years or 30 years later or so and how many years later it is anymore. 28 years later, that is still that is still just beginning.

In my yeah and I'm looking at that very passage of Maimonides, you mentioned yes hostile to Christianity hostile to Jesus in the instruction that he believes he brought into the world and different with Islam as well, but saying that that God's thoughts are not our thoughts that even Maimonides believe that God would use Christianity to prepare the world for this concept of Messiah King Messiah and so we worship God together so there there something that we agreed friends don't think that either rabbi will lick your IRA can be uncomfortable. We agreed that we get to press each other with a couple questions and I will contact you that get to do that in the this the second half of the broadcast. But hate just take about a minute and let folks know how you first encountered me.

Oh well yeah that's so, I heard your name I didn't know I didn't know much about you. All I heard was that you were some you were some inner Jew believed in Jesus and and do know that the kind of thing that kind of freaks Jews out and heard about you, but I was doing the work that I do and in my work. I travel around a lot.

I speak in church is a speaker Christian seminaries and I was on the road. This must be about Arno for five years ago and I had arrived in some city where I was speaking that evening and I got to my hotel and I had a few hours to kill.

So I flipped on the TV and I'm flipping channels and I flipped over to one of the Christian cable networks and a a replay of the speech that you gave in her church was just beginning as an adult and only see what this guy is all about and you were speaking about the history of Christian anti-Semitism, the sensitivity that Christians should have about it and also about how however present the awareness of the history of Christian anti-Semitism is for Jews than sensitizing your view, this Christian audience to that and it was such a remarkable presentation.

I was really taken by it, and I felt the main feeling that I felt watching it was gratitude but gratitude to you for being such a day, a powerful voice against. After seven I will be right explicitly presented is absolutely fascinating. You getting it straight from the mouth rabbi right here given some really interesting dialogue become ever seen a man by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown she he looking friends there really is Thursday again with my new friend rabbi Pesach with wiki Orthodox Jewish rabbi and a leading voice in Jewish Christian relationships where Jews can be Jews and the Christians can be Christian. So rabbi will lick you this. This leads me to really important question and again I know that in asking the question, if I can offend you and your candid answer won't offend me but on the one hand, I'm thrilled to see the relationship Stephen I'm thrilled for and and I'm thrilled to see mutual cult cooperation for the good of the Jewish people and a and I'm good to see Congress thrilled to see conversations and and dialogue. But here's here's my question as a Jewish believer in Jesus. I've got a stake in both sides here right so here is my big question if I understand the Scriptures correctly Jesus in the entire New Testament that he came to fulfill what was written in the Hebrew Bible about the Messiah that he is the Messiah that he died for sins and rose from the dead, that he will return at the end of the age right and if that's true then he's the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the world and everyone Jew and Gentile should follow if it's not true if if he is not the one and only Messiah of Israel. Then the New Testament is false then whatever good he did he didn't die for sins, he did not rise from the dead is not seated at the right hand of God and therefore no Jew or Gentile should believe in him so the question I have in all of this is how you how you land.

There is, in a matter of mobile see when Messiah comes asking the questions is your first time here.

Are you coming back. You know that the old joke about that at and obviously these are these major issues and issues that we can talk about while working together when cooperating and and fighting anti-Semitism together and fighting misunderstanding together with we can do that even be as a messianic you and use an Orthodox rabbi, but to me it's either/or had explained that while your framing of wires either or has to do with accepting the entire narrative of the New Testament as you can. You see that as as an error in Scripture in the same way that you see that you see the Tanakh. The Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament is as inaccurate Scripture. I IIRC don't and therefore I don't necessarily have to see it as an as is and as a zero-sum game in the same way that you do. Let me explain what I mean by that that from a Jewish perspective, I can see that what Jesus brought about this this whole thing called Christianity has accomplished something incredible for the vision of the Bible for the vision of of of what the Jewish people are meant to be doing in the world to me bring it back to that's what Maimonides said and then I'll be more direct about answering said, the you know when when when I meet these Christians millions of Christians all over the world.

Hundreds of minds of Christians who know about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, they know about the Exodus from Egypt, the 10 Commandments and they lived their lives according to the values of the Bible.

The reason they know all these things and the reason they know about the Bible is not because Jews have gone around teaching. They know about these things because of the spread of Christianity.

So Christianity has spread knowledge of the God of Israel throughout the world.

The fact that Christianity did that getting back more directly to your question, the fact that Christianity did that through the promotion of some things which also don't fit with Jewish theology and that from a Jewish perspective maybe were mistaken and and I don't know I am not bound by the understandings of the writers of the New Testament of who Jesus was. I'm not bound by them and so what I see is the impact of Christianity and how all these people in the world and all these multitudes in the world have been brought into a relationship with the God of Israel from a Jewish perspective. This relationship had in Outlook and we both believe that some that at the end of the story you know I'm right right next door sickly Cornett NMS I'm willing to live with Adam willing to live in that mystery and let you know that you know I will kick the ball down the field but your framing of the question is a zero-sum game. It's either all correctors, all false. I don't necessarily exhibit to give an example.

And I don't want to. I do want.

I don't. I'm not worried about offending you, you got a thick skin management or listeners to know you hold onto yourselves a little bit different. Christians believe two things about Jesus. Babel that that in their minds are often one, but two would you there two different things out what it was when the Christian message you want. You believe in Jesus. I don't think Christians realize directly asking two questions. I don't even know if most Jews of thought about it enough to realize it's two completely separate questions. One question is, why don't you believe that Jesus is God and the other question is why do you believe in Jesus as Messiah because Christians believe that Jesus is God and he's Messiah and that the God of the Messiah.

The same thing in Judaism the way we understand things in the way we understand the writings of of of the Bible of the Old Testament God and the Messiah are two different concepts and they been blended in Jesus so evanescence and using that as just as an example, I have no problem believing that God exactly as Maimonides put it this movement called Christianity, spreading the God of Israel in the knowledge of the Bible and the values in the Bible and mental faith to the world needed to happen in order for it to happen as you as you said, paraphrasing Maimonides but you just understand it not messily agree with them, but understand it, that God was Maimonides is a God was using Jesus and he was using this thing called Christianity to spread the knowledge and knowledge of him to the world so he did that. I don't even have a problem believing I don't have a problem accepting the fact that God empower Jesus and his followers to perform miracles. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Doesn't. And I'm not the first rabbi to say there's rabbi some centuries ago was that the same thing if that was God's plan. Any building off Maimonides of God's plan was for this Christianity to be successful in spreading to the nations of the world, then why wouldn't he empower them to do that as well.

Is it just to jump in the, the answer would be that God would be empowering falsehood because these people are crunching answer because these people are preaching these very things about Jesus which are then being backed by miracles. So the people are believing that God is backing with these people are saying about you cities the way the truth and life that no one comes to the father by hand that he died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven is at the right hand of God.

And so this is God's vindication. So if if God is backing that message to miracles.

Then he be backing something that's doing a lot of good but is fundamentally filled with faucet not necessarily faucet look, it's entirely if you think about the context in which Christianity began. It's entirely possible and here I'm just going out on a theological limb sure it's entirely possible that a minute I'm playing God for a second I need all these people in the world. All these heathens and pagans to know me to and this is the only way it's going to work because I they they need. They need some incentive and sell this concept of personal salvation, which is so central to Christianity which is virtually no currency whatsoever in traditional Judaism.

We think nationally, but this concept of personal salvation, which becomes a central component of the state system. The idea of of a tangible cool human being who embodies God. Maybe this was necessary for people to have something to attach to.

Because the Jewish people. We have the law we have a very comprehensive relationship with God through the law I don't know how I would be able to be intimate with God in the absence of the law and perhaps in into it. If I'm if I'm the apostles and I'm going out or from God and I want people to go out and I want to spread knowledge of me. Maybe it was a concession. Maybe it was a concession to allow this what you call falsehood or some you know in Judaism.

There's a concept went with regard to the faith of the nations now getting a little bit into the weeds, but of from Judaism's perspective and I said before that my as I entered into this relationship.

I read it was a redefinition of what Judaism is from is the goal of the people of Israel is to spread knowledge of God to all peoples of the earth. The goal is not to make everyone Jewish recalled a kingdom of priests right right and that means that there has to be a flock if work is where the priest is gotta be a flock in the flock is the world and it makes sense that that the just like the family of of Aaron, who were the priest of Judaism had laws that applied to them. That didn't apply to the rest of Israel had restrictions on them tonight wondering the rest of Israel and places they can go and things they could eat, not eat that all that would that didn't apply to the rest of Israel. The same is true of the relationship of the people of Israel to the world. We have we have rules in ways that we interact with God that are different than everyone else and therefore according to Judaism. Our goal for the world is that everyone have faith in the God of Israel if they also have faith in him. If they also believe about the God of Israel that he incarnated himself in a human body that may not be what God wants from his priestly class, but it may be's. It may be perfectly fine decisions of the world.

If that's their way into believing and this is especially is not just interrupt and then I'll get a really short answer to this and then the next segment we turn that the tables need, you get to question me.

Okay so I got a big one for you is out I got I got a question? Are you in this is this is we just got a minute but do you believe Jesus rose from the dead.

If you just give me a yes or no in terms of your own belief, no okay so that's something we can pursue this in another dialogue and I want to be fair so you can you can fully unload and unpack what you're saying but I'll do I'll just close this part out here, then we we return on the turn it right over to you for you that to asked me these questions, but that is so fundamental. In other words there. There can now I know this just your belief right but I would press in and say this is where it is a zero-sum game.

This is where it is either/or because either he rose from the dead and our faith in this living Savior is real or he didn't, in which case fundamentally, our faith is built on a lie.

If he did rise from the dead. Then of course God vindicated him and you should believe in him and if he didn't. None of us should so that this still comes zero-sum for me. I come back I'm turning it over rabbi Maleki, who will then ask the question or questions that he wants to be right that it's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of ironbound by calling 86634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I last segment relatively weak he gets to Chris me and some questions. First, let your listeners know about your book.

Thank you that my book is called cup of salvation, and it is a I: a devotional commentary as a line by line commentary on Psalms 113 through 118 which are very significant for Jews as Jews are familiar with them as they're called, how well the Psalms of praise we and we sing them at all of the festivals and all of the all important days in the calendar and what it what the book is is on every single verse of the six Psalms I dig down into the Hebrew and I and I pull out I try to pull out nuances of meaning that are not necessarily apparent in the translation, but also because I didn't just pick a whole bunch of random verses in the Bible but went through six successive Psalms I show a kind of poetic narrative of the of the six Psalms and there is a theological narrative as it were, that they that they go through so it could be read as a devotional run each verse. There's just a short essay with a lesson but it also builds as the as the book goes.

It's called cup of salvation at the Bible study. Basically, this is it's not a book about Jewish Christian relations or about anything else but the it's it's a Bible study if people are interested in digging into the Hebrew and and and and gaining insights from an Orthodox rabbi about the about Psalms and I think in there also a really learn how to study Psalms Psalms is a book is very different than the other books in the Bible is a book of us praising God.

It's a book of prayers really in the poetry in it, which is different than the other books and I think it has to be study differently. Great.

Excellent.

So it's available on Amazon call again cup of salvation.

Salvation listening spell WOLICKI write back to you sir all right.

So I one short question for you.

Maybe it's short and I one longer question present okay go for my short question is like you're talking about, you know, the fundamental faith of of of God incarnated himself in, and Jesus dying in and being reaped 10 and coming back from the dead and being the Messiah, but I will question for you. Do you believe in the Trinity and the concept of three coequal, coeternal persons, and if so, why do you believe that because I as an outsider.

I read the New Testament and I don't see it is, it is best to say just in the Scriptures.

Yes, that is what I believe I'm I'm actually an active dialogue with a leading ultra-Orthodox rabbi who for years assume that's with the New Testament taught course he didn't believe the New Testament but upon further study is convinced that that was not the teaching of the New Testament because he sees Ms. an honest student of Scripture is now engaging in dialogue with Lisa were in the early process of massive in-depth reanalysis of key verses, but as best as I understand it, let me say this, the way things were formulated in later creeds and things like that. A lot of that ties in with Greek philosophy and larger theological issues of the day and decrees mate while I wouldn't say are in accurate. I would say they go beyond the testimony of Scripture in terms of formulating things. I leave much more room for mystery in terms of the nature of God. But as I've defined things I do believe in God's complex unity and I give that the shortest answer cassette.

I have a larger question follow-up with but in in in short, I see God is hidden in Scripture and an untouchable and invisible. And yet as a visible and tangible and present at just in the Hebrew Scripture.

II see him as the one that no one can see in the one who is seen. I see him as I see the spirit teaching and leading and instructing, which indicates personality and when I look at these things and even see some messianic prophecies that point to the divine nature of the Messiah as I put it together, at least as I understand he has revealed himself to us as father-son and spirit through the role of the sun is to make the father known so the main emphasis of the New Testament is that God sent Jesus into the world as the Messiah and Lord to die for our sins rise from the dead and point everyone to worship God the father in the spirit then working invisibly points us to the sun points us to the father. Ultimately, Revelation 22 speaks of one throne for God and the Lamb, and it speaks of one face that multiple faces so I do believe that God's ultimate revelation is as one God, but has revealed himself to us as father-son in spirit, which I understand to be his eternal nature as best as I can wrap my mind around the Scriptures set that that sounds to me like not the traditional understanding of the Trinity, but I do want to get too far into the weeds on that because what you're describing seems to be three different manifestations of a one God yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not a motor list and I did. I don't believe that in terms what you just said but the way that the creed states things to me overstates and goes beyond them the mystery so I want to clear them. I'm not a motorist but I don't use standard Christian terminology. Just because when I read Scripture and see it in in that same way as fully developed because I idolize it as honestly as I've gotten to know I've many pastors as friends and Christian academics are my friends and when I asked for their understandings of the Trinity that just I really just want to understand when I first got about a Christian the first I just didn't understand the Holy Spirit thing was, and then I understood it more. What I find is that I get a lot of different answers about the Trinity.

It's the question that I get the most variant answers on ident meaning there's no one answer. I'm knocking out people, but I get all kinds of very disparate answers on the question about how they understand the Trinity and leads me to believe that maybe a lot of Christian sitting at home professed faith in the Trinity, but they don't even really not explaining this morning there's more mystery and grandeur. The nature of God sometimes acknowledged and and that to me is is good and right. You know what one of my colleagues who use the and what was his background in astronomy PhD in astronomy and in it he says that one of the truths of the produce of the Trinity is its our inability to wrap our minds rent which is in keeping with the nature of God. But anyhow, the question of Saturday night at Cavalli in the context when asking another question. Maybe it will be a quick question answer question that I am not the first Judah, ask someone who believes in Christianity was born Jewish others. The question that was asked by the great Orthodox Jewish professor Michael wish abroad to Cardinal Law listed her.

John relisted her the French Cardinals who was born Jewish and I'm asking you Michael as Dr. Brown Azalea as a born Jew in acts chapter 15. When the when the apostles come back from their journey where they went to get to preach the gospel and then come back and they and they and essentially made a sale and they have these Gentiles who now are are you they bought in and is a whole debate about whether they need to be circumcised and whether there under the law or not and you know the scene and in that debate. Of course, in the end Paul you know wins the day and and and they ruled that these Gentiles do not have to follow the law right if these if these Christians who were debating if these Christian's believers in Jesus's Jewish believers in Jesus, who were having that debate if they believed at that time that they were no longer under the law than that entire that entire passages is incoherent right rates clear regardless of their conclusion about the Gentiles that they understood that they were bound by the law. Therefore, their conclusion must mean many everyone on both sides of the debate agrees that they is born Jews are bound by the law, which means that it's unanimous that someone like yourself would be bound by the law right so I'm cutting it only so I can issue your question is a noisy and you can ask you beautifully right so more you mention X50 nice ninja going in that direction. There are messengers colleagues of mine who do come to that same conclusion and believe, although it will not. Damn you to hell that to be fully obedient to God. You should be keeping whatever aspects of of the law, you can.

And so there are colleagues of mine who do hold that that view and they would say hey when you are born Jews were members of the people of Israel rail like myself right and I know I normally don't think about Christianity.

I think of being a follower of Jesus because of so much baggage associated with Christianity, but the short answer is that as you talk about the vantage point of history and looking back, this was before the destruction of the second Temple.

This was before we can prepare which is almost 2000 years were 75% of the forever commandments of the Torah.

We cannot keep to me.

God was making his full statement. Jesus said in Matthew 517 following that nothing would pass from the Law until everything was refilled more and more has been fulfilled and with that we have come into the revelation of the new covenant, and of new life in the new covenant so that the commandments were more like scaffolding for for the building as the building is fully erected. You even mention Christians living by certain moral principles so my role as a Jew is to live by the moral principles that God gave out to learn lesson from every word of Torah, but to recognize that it finds its fulfillment in the Messiah, the God made a statement about the. The old system being of finished with a new and better system as is. He prophesies that the new covenant. Jeremiah 31 and that now my great role is to take the knowledge of God to the ends of the earth, but that's that's all you got time for not got an idea privately and we can have further dialogue, especially our folks are interested, but her so much.

Mrs. I'd love to do an open-ended discussion we can just set the record straight. Thank you Rabbi were looking for John. We were at a time. Another program powered by the Truth Network