Is Purgatory Biblical?

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. So is purgatory concept found in the Bible for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We are getting to the word today, we are getting into the Scripture we are getting into theology and welcome your calls, 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 784 and I want to give you an opportunity to call the challenge and opportunity have everyone look at it.

If you believe that you can demonstrate the doctrine of purgatory that some Christians will go through a period of purging of suffering in a redemptive way after death before being with the Lord forever and ever.

If you believe in that concept and believe that you can demonstrate it's in the Bible as accepted by Protestants and Catholics alike.

Okay, so what we called the 66 books of the Bible including the Apocrypha. If you believe you can make that case, give me a call 866-34-TRUTH, or conversely, if you believe that you can argue for the canonicity of second Maccabees and why we should take the testimony second Maccabees to point to purgatory, you may call 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call if you believe it's an un-biblical concept. Why, on what basis do you feel it's on biblical phone lines are open so envelope couple months back I was asked to come on a show that I been on before were one brother moderates debate shows online, and I was asked by a Catholic apologist to debate a particular subject.

I forget what the subject was. It may have related to Mary or something else, but I've I don't know that I've done formal debates with Catholics over the years I've had many many discussion with with Catholics over the years, friends, colleagues, strangers that I've met the church in which I came to faith.

Most of the people in that church little church you come out of Catholicism Battalion back rented command of Catholicism, but I've not engaged in serious academic debates with Catholics the same, my friend Dr. James White has. It was nothing.

At the top of my bucket list to do but I was then asked how about debating purgatory so I was very specific. If we are going to debate. We all agree on is the canon of Scripture, so the 39 books of the Old Testament 27 books of the New Testament if we will confine the debate to that.

So we just debating what Scripture says on the subject yet. So the question is not church tradition. The question is not apocryphal books question is this Bible lesson. Sure, I'll do it so agree to do the debate what is two weeks ago maybe with William Al Brecht. I guess I've been on his show show that he has with a colleague talk about some other issues in the past, not debating but but talking on areas that we have in common. In any case, when the debate began because he affirmed the answer was yes the Christmas purgatory purgatory biblical out. I was completely shocked by his presentation so it appeared there was a massive misunderstanding or email chain to me was clear to him to my sister was clear to the moderate was clear but William did not understand it, as I did so, it appears there is a massive misunderstanding that you could be; say no know he he he just and play by the rules by take him at his word that was a massive misunderstanding. So he came in and spent opening arguments talking a lot about what the church fathers taught and then getting into second Maccabees and what second Maccabees taught and then using a few verses. So when it was my Thomas right before we start, I need some clarification here because we actually don't have a debate otherwise. After my presentation. Opening statements he was going to question me for 20 minutes house and question him for 20 minutes of cross examination and I said the debate is not with the church fathers believed the church. The debate is not within the Apocrypha. The debate I agreed to do is what's in the Bible that even if I was actually Florida if I could quote every writing of every church father on every subject, my memory if I could but I can't. If if I was fully prepared to deal with any potential verses in the Apocrypha and it's really just one passage in and that was not hard, and this is one passage I would've done it anyway because that's not what I agreed to debate there up there plenty of subjects I could move over into but that's not what we agreed to debate. Of course I was to be attacked as being unprepared, and so on and and if you go to the website you know depends on what someone's perspective was in terms of how to respond to debate that's unfortunate, such as misrepresentation and had nothing to do with being unprepared and had to do with what we agreed on in the debate is is that simple wings.

That was one thing the moderator and I understood it was something very very different. So all that being said, the passage in second Maccabees. There are those who say that doesn't really support purgatory either because purgatory is not theoretically 22.

Bring a wicked person into righteousness, but rather to further purge a righteous person so they are fully ready to be in the presence of the Lord forever. Right, whereas in the passage this prayer for idol worshipers and things like that. So, some would even say that second Maccabees doesn't support the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, but put that aside, because that's not with the debate was similar but what about the fact that was drilled home. In the debate that the church fathers are unanimous on the subject while my response to that was signed for the fight this summer debating his search for, take a look and see. Take a look and see whether the church fathers were unanimous.

How many actually spoke about purgatory, how early was there, consistent testimony of purgatory. How many said things that would be taken as saying something different that here's the deal. If we could debate with the Bible says about certain persons and then all the church fathers.

Every single one of them. All agreed on the subject. Every single one. From the earliest let's say up to fourth fifth centuries. They all taught at the same way they all believe that the same way they all held to the same thing then that would deftly say welding seems like that's the way they understood it.

That's what was passed on that that would be an argument but is not the case here, even that was thoroughly misleading civil Dr. Brown, why didn't you get into that in rebutting because I wasn't dealing with the church because that's not what I agreed to debate. That's not the material I was going to present what to those who want to take the time to study. I said this I said check online check online.

Look up the sources see how unanimous they were at one point debate when you said your every church fathers unanimous that all interpret for strength units three. This way they clarify so I'm not saying they will comment on all interested interested so theoretically if 3/30 church fathers distance runner number made this comment in first Corinthians 3.

Would that be unanimous than if the other 27 didn't comment on it, or other writings they they had pointed in a different direction. You see how misleading all that was again.

I did rebut it. I didn't deal with it and that's because that's up with the debate was that some of those focused on. That's not what I agreed to. So again you have to have principal if you get into a debate and it deviates from the topic, then it isolate the other things I'm happy to debate another time. If we set that up for that purpose. Fine was here with the books of Maccabees were they considered canonical in the early Jewish community where they with a recognized University as part of the Bible at any time and in in in early church history or or the second Temple Judaism. That's a separate debate and in the advances know they were never universally recognized the Scripture. They were not part of that the recognized Jewish canon the ancient world.

It's but but that again is a separate debate. In point of fact, I'm quite sure with all respect my Catholic friends that we can demonstrate scripturally the purgatory is not taught anywhere in the Bible, we can demonstrate it scripturally. We agree on is canonical books about putting such second Maccabees for the moment again even there you can argue with her teachers purgatory as Catholics hold I can demonstrate scripturally, I believe, clearly and even unequivocally the purgatory purgatory is not a biblical concept, not Lisa disclaim it was. I embrace it if that was the case if that's what God's word taught at that's what he required for the purging of further purification, certain suffering, going to fire and survived. That's what our God required of some people to be with him forever, then so be it. Whatever he says is good with me.

He's wonderful. He's our heavenly father.

This would not be some doctrine to me were, it would shatter everything I believe were at work.

You the I did. There is no God. The idea that the Bible is not true.

The idea that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, that knew those things were absolutely completely shatter and demolish everything that we believe are whole to an end would without question be things that would destroy the lives that were living everything we can question thank God, there's that God is think of his words to thank all Jesus is risen. Those things were certain to me, as is the chair that I'm sitting on.

So purgatory is not one of those doctrines were if it was true, it would destroy every foundation of my spiritual life. The Bible taught. I embrace that the Bible doesn't teach it.

In fact, rightly understanding the blood of Jesus rightly understanding redemption rightly understanding justification by faith right in understanding the relationship that we currently have with God. Now all those things indicate plainly and clearly the purgatory is not a biblical concept of his peers were to do today just take a look over at our phone lines are right 866-34-TRUTH.

So again, I invite you to call Catholic friends. Those that believe that that the church fathers of taught with a clear unanimous voice on this. Those that want to make a case for the canonicity of second Maccabees which course would be first Maccabees as well.

I'm gonna bite your head off.

I may differ with you but I will give you an opportunity to present your case and if you happen to watch the debate and were sympathetic to Williams viewpoint, by all means give us call 8663 for truth, but usually we come back to lay out my argument as to why purgatory is not biblical. I believe you beatified to be helped. You'll be encouraged and then after that for the rest of the show all open up the full months of your friend Catholic apologist for someone that believes in purgatory and you know they like to weigh in on this form is rope right in fact I will I will give pride of place I would give first place. To those who differ with me to those who want to challenge what I'm saying or have a different point of view this is not a hill we die on, meaning that this this is not ultimately a matter of our standing with God. But it's important doctrinal point number and Expo light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown x-rays for joining us on the line of purgatory is a biblical doctrine. Always give us a call to demonstrate your point here is why I say purgatory is not biblical. We pull up a few notes that I used in the debate couple weeks back on the subject. First we understand what happens to us when were born again realize the purgatory is not biblical is the moment you were born again through faith in the Lord Jesus.

The Bible says you are justified. So you go from guilty, not guilty from unrighteous to righteous your forgiven your set apart as holy. You become a child of God, or transfer from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light from death to life. Listen Scripture for scripting 611 and that is what some of you were but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of the moment born again.

Romans five we been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus, through whom we have access into by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Ephesians 2 says this that all of us live like the world at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh follow his desires and thoughts.

Like the rest we were by nature deserving of wrath because of his great love for us. God was rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions is by grace you have been saved and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. So you are presently spiritually speaking, seated in the heavenly realms with Jesus. How is it that it death that you go backwards how's it death. You go backwards and you have to go through some type of purgatory, to be pure enough to be in his presence like that forever and ever where's.

Ephesians tells us right now we are seated in heavenly places in Jesus cautions one.

We been delivered rescued from the dominion of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the son he loves you are yet you are is in is your ever going to be in that respect. Once you were alienated from God. Also in Colossians 1 your enemies in your mind because your evil behavior, but now is reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death, look at this to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation. If you continue your faith.

So if you continue in your faith. Then when you die through the blood of Jesus, you will be presented before God, look at this holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation result, purgatory. There's no need for purgatory. There's nothing to be purged. Secondly, based on writings from the New Testament clearly to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's why Jesus tells the thief on the cross, who obviously died in his sin died in wickedness or died for his sin. I should say with it. Crucifixion was was the worst of sinners for for what was named for Romans was you committed treason… For Jews and and and other foreigners. The terrible punishment so Jesus says to truly truly city today.

You'll be with me in paradise. If the thief on the cross, who had no time to grow in holiness and no time to purge his life if he immediately goes to paradise just like Luke 16 with you take is a literal account or parable that Lazarus there goes immediately to Abraham's bosom, which is is paradise doesn't go through a time of purification, cleansing, purging no you go straight there was Paul say in Philippians 1. I desire to depart and be with Jesus. That was his hope and desire those who would been beheaded for their faith in Revelation 6. There are before the throne of God say Lord, how long before your venture blood and Paul indicates a second Corinthians 5 that being absent from the body means being present with the Lord. So there is no purgatory. There is no middle ground.

Thirdly, he was 927 tells us that it's appointed to men once to die, and then after this the judgment and and then we know that in the future resurrection only two options there is resurrection to life. There's resurrection to death. There's resurrection to eternal blessing is resurrection to eternal damnation is no in between stage you die, you go to place either with God are separated from God is the physical resurrection and then eternal judgment.

That's all Scripture knows in John five tells us that those who believe now have passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation, so we are redeemed we are forgiven we been set apart as holy. We are called to grow in holiness and growing grace and there will be rewards for labor. Scripture is clear on that. But in terms of our salvation. It is through the blood of Jesus is been accomplished we are growing in our sanctification growing in our relationship with God growing in our fruit bearing list for standing. It is been accomplished through the blood of Jesus unless we reject him. If we don't continue our faith if we reject him, that he rejects us otherwise. He said that nobody can touch us. Nobody can take us out of his hands and on that day he will present this holy in his father's site at next. Think of this when Jesus returns will be presumably hundreds of millions of believers on the earth and will happen will be transformed in a moment of time and be with the Lord forever. And the dead in Messiah will rise and so the rise and proceed us meet the Lord the air as he dissents to the earth will be with him forever.

So there's no purgatory there for hundreds of millions of people, or maybe billions at the end of the age when the Lord returns. What say we will become like him first on for we will see him as he is to really transform first Corinthians the 15th chapter in a moment in the 20 when I the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound it will be change. There is no purgatory that anything can happen to hundreds of millions at the end of the age and theoretically, Jesus could come at any moment in history right enemy prophetically develop a just theoretically we are to live and ready rings was coming.

That's the reality it's just like death instantly in the presence of God. Why, because of what Jesus is done on the cross is no purgatory. There is no purgatory and and then another question which is New Testament ever indicate that going through sufferings produces forgiveness of sins or we can grow in character for sure.

We can grow in perseverance, but where is it ever can connect it with forgiveness of sins. It's not you, it's a bus that would purgatory is about will then why use verses to support purgatory to talk about forgiveness.

It's another question to come to an end and look at this right now because of what Jesus is done we can enter into the holiest place of all we read this to you from Hebrews chapter 10 the rate there for brothers and sister. Since we have confidence to enter the most holy Place by the blood of Jesus by new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of goblins drawing near to God with a sincere heart, and with the full assurance that faith brings having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Right now in prayer, spiritually, you can enter into the holiest place of all in intimate fellowship with God. Why is it when you die, you have to go through some type purge where is it's not taught by the syllable in the New Testament setting up about what went on. First Corinthians chapter 3 was take a look at that. This is the the the passage that's most commonly pointed to first Corinthians chapter 3 universal 11. If we get my screen appear that would be great there. Paul is talking about.

As a master builder. Paul himself as a master builder building on the foundation of Jesus and says now, no one can lay any other foundation than what is really which is Yeshua the Messiah that if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones with a straw.

Each one's work will become clear. So this is judging the work is not a judgment on the person salvation, and it could well be speaking of church planters and that's who post on Melissa supposed all believers were building on the foundation of Jesus, so it says your work will become clear doesn't say that you are being judged here by your works, that the works are you, but rather your works will be judged.

Is it explicit or not each one's work will become clear for the day will show it because it is to be revealed by farces on Judgment Day is a one-time event that appeared of time that a process in the fire itself will test to see each person note each one's work with sorted if anyone's work built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, you will suffer loss himself will be saved us in front say it's easy to be saved through fines, purgatory, purgatory, sometime a purification process of the individual either. The work will receive a reward or all the work will be burned up.

It's it it is our works for God with a built in faith with a built in integrity with a built in purity or was it pride was.

It was agreed, was it with her other motives in terms of what we did.

Those are that those are the questions is not a matter salvation he said was that he himself will be saved, but as the fire was saying is that yeah okay all your works are being struck are still saved, but like when going through the fire it's analogy it it goes back to the language, probably from the Old Testament Zechariah you have a couple times in the Old Testament like a brand plucked from the fire right that is is distant idiom for us and yet you still are saved. Peter talks about courting problems. If the righteous are scarcely say what about the ungodly to sing you even if the work you did for the Lord was was with wrong motives like that and all works burned up against him, a personal purification not a hint of in the text and handed it.

If you receive a reward for good works, or the bad works burned up. That's it, that it purification by fire zero. Nowhere in the text that even hint that but don't worry your still saved yeah like one plucked from the fire, you're still saved. So to use this for purgatory's mom was bizarre misuses of Scripture of encountered over the years the light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire by calling 860 Jim is Dr. Michael Brown as friends for joining us on the line of fire. Believe purgatory can be supported biblically blessed biblically in this conversation.

I mean on the books that we all agree are part of the Bible's was Protestants and Catholics in whatever other groups there would be that we have in common a belief in 66 books of the Bible you believe you can make a case for purgatory biblically. If you believe you can shoot holes in cases I've made against it and always give me call this not to yell at each other.

It met each other but to have an honest question about Scripture, 866-348-7884. Not that you're selling really interesting when arguments were made by Catholic apologists against me a couple weeks ago saying that purgatory was biblical in all the church always unanimously held to it so who were the earliest are trucks and and if there Catholic friends out there listening to those that hold purgatory and say that the testimony of the early church is really strong right so I'm just looking at a list of the earliest church fathers. So the very first ones, some of them would be disciples of the apostles and others disciples of their disciples, but some of the first generation was like Polycarp, a disciple of John Wright. So the very earliest church frogs. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch Polycarp of Smyrna happiest of her Opelousas Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons Leone's Clement of Alexandria origin of Alexandria out of those first.

Once how many of them made comments supporting the idea purgatory is.

Let me know if this is your area of this is something that you've argued and if if you can't find any of the first ones. Maybe after the second or third generation before quote start coming up, what with that tell you say the least. It was not some major doctrine that was preached or perhaps it was something that they didn't believe at all and it came in later. Look, it's a doctrine it's easy to understand why people come up with because you want to be able to do something for someone they got right and you think Walt here they were, they were good but not perfect and may be there like in between them and it's the rational mind could come up with these kinds of things but Scripture no not in Scripture and and if you wonder origin of course origin ultimately used in universal reconciliation arguments leader excommunicated for saying that everybody met Angel Satan will ultimately be saved reconciled this thrown things out for you to think about what look it's more Scripture. In terms of scriptures that used to support purgatory in a moment.

Okay, I I don't see anybody yet who is arguing for purgatory Soloway little bit longer give you an opportunity but just another verse that is used to support purgatory. Matthew chapter 5. Take a look at this. Matthew chapter 5, beginning in verse 21 Jesus says you've heard that was said to those of old, you shall not murder. Whoever commits murder shall be subject to judgment but to tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be subject to judgment were sisters brother Rocco term of disparagement shall be subject to the Council and reverses you fool, shall be subject to fiery Gahanna. Therefore, if you are presenting your offering upon the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you believe your offering their before the altar, and go first be reconciled to your brother and think is coming.

Present your offering.

Make friends quickly with your opponent while you were with him on the way I was. Your opponent may hinge over to the judge and the judge to the assistant will be thrown into prison a minute so you will never get out there until you've paid back the last penny say where is the reference purgatory. That's a great question. Where is the reference to Burger's not there not a hint of it to where they get from of the idea that Jesus is talking about a purgatory situation here. We have to stay in prison to pay back the last penny so let's press this analogy as we step back from a text one is purgatory about paying something back. Is that what it's about Japan break every last penny. You owe Bob think Catholic theologians see notes on about that incident doesn't apply their what's the point Jesus is making its that's the point he's making be reconciled to your brother.

It's not about being reconciled to God is not the issue. It say that God does want your sacrifice. If there's an issue with you and your brother.

So let's say I walk out of the store really mad at somebody because they didn't take Hermione's law with regard any god for bid. I walk in the store I go from there. I buy got a hurry to get prayer meeting on times like an old Lord I love your worship because no way she could make things right with that person got setting for your interest in our hypocritical prayers.

What when our hearts are right with him.

His recent against others in the same look. Remember the way it is. If you make things right when you can this person that the thing may escalate right and charges being pressed against you, and you may end up in prison so let let's say I owe you $10,000 and I keep making excuses about payback. I live you and I extort more money from you and I and Lisa, look Mike, I will give enough to make it right along, giving opportunity fixes.

Let's work out a payment plan. I will her children press charges and I keep ignoring you I don't respond to calls.

In fact I extort more money from you. Somehow it like RI untenured court and the next thing I'm putting debtors prison on the ancient world.

You could die and debtors prison why because you can't work. In other words, you stay there and to pay the prison like many people would die there because they could never pay back as he could work in the family can come up with adequate money so they dined debtors prison so is that a possibility dined perkier as a whole. All thing is nothing new was purgatory wellness passage. Let let's pull up Matthew chapter 12 Matthew chapter 12 and will begin all around verse 30 and again when you realize that these are versus that are used. To support purgatory in the Bible and these are the main verses that are used is okay something is terribly doubly wrong here with this argument, then you have to go to second Maccabees which number one is was not receive this Canon in the early Jewish world was disputed this Canon in the early church for centuries by the whites factually, but even there it doesn't equate to purgatory with the Catholic Church, we teach on certain levels, but I'm letting an argument out just in with what we agree on Scripture so messy flexible start in verse 31 Jesus said is not with me is against me is not who does not gather with me scatters.

For this reason Jesus is a city you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the rule against the spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the rule who called us the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age nor in the 12 come once I got to do is purgatory. Good question. Purgatory is not normally associated with forgiveness, but her and Jean cleansing preparing right sin under the civil what is it mean will be forgiven. This age needs to come but one way to read this means ever, ever, don't think that is a forgiveness of sin in this age on dates, forever, that could simply be with Jesus say also, it could be that he was referring to the concert that there are certain Jewish traditions that claim that say Manasseh was forgiven in this world but not the world to come, that he received forgiveness in this age but needs to come, he'd be forever damned or subject to certain judgment.

And Jesus is dealing with this idea of forgiveness in this world and/or the world come and need to say so I can happen as a finalist, but this have anything to purgatory. No. Zero. Nothing being honest with the text.

All right 866-34-TRUTH quick reminder, so this is a little over 1/2 hour from now slightly over 1/2 hour from now we will be doing an exclusive YouTube cats starting at 415 Eastern time for 15 Eastern time on the Esther Cabral YouTube channel SK dear Brent, if you're not watching the remember, you can watch her show live on YouTube daily 3:57 PM yet watch.

I know you're listening on radio pockets become watch if you like my smiles for everybody. There and then make sure you subscribe and then hit hit the bell which reminds you of of new videos that premier can be the first to know. So for 15 Eastern time redoing this one on Wednesday this week or exclusive YouTube chat where you can post any kind of question and answer as many as I can I let's let's go to the phones will start in Fort Lauderdale, Florida Henry, thanks for holding welcome to the modifier.hey, you have a you a you speak and write to the phone service little hard to hear you hear me now yeah that's that's better. Talk about respect and equate to make follow-up number one of that archer had recently just asked one thing what was going point for point Revelation 21 that the unclean the 27th was a say in Revelation 22. How do we enter heaven. What what is it specifically say we have washed our ropes meeting were washed in the blood. So we enter washed in the blood of Jesus. That's how we act as a revelation answers that question right but nothing. Right that we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Scripture uses that exact language. We are made clean by the blood of the Lamb. Also, there going to heaven brought purging the worse it wears in the Bible. That's I thrust it diluted.

Check will you have an appear to resuscitate say what it it's it's super difficult to hear Henry so if you got one more passage I want you to. I want you to give it to Grayson because I can barely hear myself right now I'm using so Grayson if he's got one more Scripture that inhibits you and will have to deal with it all theater, all answer on the air but not on phones because we can barely hear you, but I'm in a response of the 12 animal it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker, and Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown hey you know why I should straight your book. I debated my friend James White and others on Calvinism and understand the verses that can be used for Calvinism and how that yet.

I could sound like the epicure versus against it and the preponderance goes in this direction. So hold to this view, their other subjects.

Assuming debate back and forth and time issues and things like that but comes to debating purgatory biblically to me. There is no debate is not there is not there. So this is another passage that that Henry's .2 in Luke chapter 12 beginning in verse 42. It's it's about Jesus returning the parts to these people in charge of things and some are faithful, some aren't faithful that's that's was dealing with.

There's no purging. There is no in between is no cleansing and further purification.

The ones that serve faithfully or rewarded and others are judged really for yourself. Luke 12 start of verse 44 to read for yourself. It's just as well as things and and you know a way that is not infallible wasted to judge doctrine. Obviously, and looks like we can get the third verse from from Henry, but all what I've read a passage for decades and it's never once dawned on me reading the passage they could have a particular meaning and then someone says I think it means this like what on earth are you talking about and you look again you look again you look against like you get this to stop the text says is not there and be ready and had to be imported was rather things like you read.

It's like I wonder what that means yellowcake to set say this or that these questions come up all the time, but the verses that he used to support purgatory. When I first heard them. After reading Scripture over and over and over and memorizing many of these passages over the years and then heard it was used to support purgatory thought watch now can't be found. Though these are some of the key verses look. People say what will with Jesus is can build his is his church on the rock is that Peter did build on Peter C understand why people of the question. Kathy CP was the first public understand is why different but I get that understand where you're coming from with that right or arguments about his hell eternal conscious torment, or is it perishing he cut off to see the verses I summary getting it from, but the purgatory verse like this, not the okay yeah so I dealt with dealt with Matthew 523 through 26 dealt with that earlier yup.

Luke 1242, 48 yet so the and and Luke, but I guess is that 1258 to 59 that's just take a look inside in reference those. Luke 1258 to 59. Give me one second you going with it is so that's the parallel to Matthew five that has to do with reconciliation with a person. This all has to do with.

I just encourage you Henry step back and read that read the text is okay what it was actually say you have been told alludes to his that was icy say and take in all the Scriptures I gave you the moment your Savior pronounce clean here.

Have you made been made clean through the blood of Jesus or not. Have you been justified by the blood of Jesus.

Have you become a child of God by the blood of Jesus are you now seated in heavenly places with the Lord through the blood of Jesus. Are you not considered a child of God.

Have you now been set apart as holy by the blood of Jesus.

Can you now enter the most holy place to prayer by the blood of Jesus will serve your that spiritual fellowship now while you then have to be purged of sin. Later, or pay is is the passages your setting pay the last penny. That's we can do you pay for your sins and purgatory. So Jesus paid for your sins said about him. "Those passages again brother doctrines like you I assume you coming from on that I get it.

Yes, and here's why different. Here's a different perspective.

Look at insert messianic prophecies yeah I see what you would say that's not messianic.

Let me let me share what I believe it is we go back and forth on certain points of the purgatory versus just there exit was hinted at work. It will then where is it taught wears it taught explicitly when the opposite is taught explicitly. The Bible tells us that death you with the Lord you are not that that a death you you are in his presence presented as holy or not know all recall to grow in holiness and natural gas or or or their consequences toward disobedience. Yes and and that will affect the seed in this world. WorldCom, but the middle stage. Just as in their in the Bible or whatever intermediate states that you want to refer to. It's just not there in the Bible.

Okay, we go back to the phones. Let's go to Caleb in Rancho Cucamonga, California.

Thanks for calling the line of fire. Thanks for holding hi Dr. yeah I believe I believe you know your biblical response.

100%.

My question is connecting the five-year purgatory with near-death experiences, a lot of which acting from charismatic network been fell on the more reliable one for their clinically dad and some some you know their lives are totally changed in becoming Christians.

In some incredible witnesses and pastors and so on. Crew diet eight.

Yet the unbelievers there in hell and then they cry out to G that he rescued them either take them to heaven and you know eventually there there they come back from the dead in the hospital setting on and they have the testimony of my question is, could that not be as a form of purgatory, and if that if that is possible.

The first two hours after death call out the key in hell and him save them. Could that not be possible outing years after death a million years after death. You know, if a person comes to their senses. You know in hell being tormented going through fire or whatever. My question, how do you connect it with Josh and appreciate the questions number one we never ever ever ever ever based doctrine on someone's experience near-death experience in ever ever ever ever ever and I talk if you talk to thousand different people, you often have a thousand different experiences. Shall we believe those that died as nonbelievers and talk about entering into the light and so on. In the universal light and presence.

The near-death experiences become interesting when the person is telling you what was happening outside of the room. When they tell you the family I saw you I was on the operating table right in my spirit left my body and I saw all of you and you and you were so concerned and tells them what they were each wearing and what the snacks they were eating in and things like that of so on that that then provides verification of the existence of the human spirit right, but as to all of these accounts, every one of them that I've ever heard is the opposite of purgatory. It was God saying this is where you're going and was returned to me for salvation, and it was nothing. They were purged of sins was nothing they were purified it at end and purgatory is not taught as a means for a rebellious center to have another opportunity after death rather for someone that is not, however, was it righteous enough clean enough to go through this time of purification. So it's not even parallel to the Catholic doctrine, but in all the cases of people of hurt if if I was to take their stories is as truthful as Mickey Robinson present blue guys in the know plane) fire and and so on gobbler showing him okay this is where you're going if I let you go now but I will give you another chance in this body on the earth.

And that's when they then make the decision.

The Mickey Robinson then wakes up in his body and physical agony, and then has to make the decision to follow Jesus so so even even though I know you would agree that we don't based doctrine on it is not even parallel.

Not even a palace. Not even analogous so thank you for the call appreciate it and get time for one more Adam in Boone, Iowa. Over to you. Hello Dr. Brown hey okay so give the behold, I have told you all think right okay got of the spirit and he wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth okay will remember that will go to the first book of John first chapter of John Perry verses three through five. All things were made by him without him was not anything made that was made in him was life.

That life was the light of man, that light shines in darkness and the darkness has not comprehend it or about everyone look at that in mind, let's look at what one third of our modern economy is made up of that is so Adam a little more integrity on your calls. Okay, we told you that only calls relative to purgatory were being taken today you called back and said okay you want is on your purgatory only get back your original subject that we said was not for today, so that's a strike against you, buddy for integrity, mantis play by the rules buddy. We have days and days and days hundreds thousands of days were people can call in and tell about any subject under the sun. This day we say calls related to purgatory only you say okay call back and then try to trick us is that Christian, but step higher right you will get through again step higher so for everybody.

Hey, if you calling us off subject we tell you it's all subject, there plenty days. I'll talk about some for 10 or 15 minutes and it's okay from here, anything goes. And if you want talk about that on Fridays.

Usually it's abuse on Thursdays. So, play by the rules. Fair enough so as purgatory biblical knowledge back in 15 minutes. 15 minutes for you to chat right on the ask Dr. Brown SK Dearborn YouTube channel. Talk to that were 15 Eastern time.

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