An Interview on Challenging Conversations in the Church

Has some challenging conversations.

The type of questions folks are afraid to ask in church talk about stage for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH your Jim is Dr. Michael Brown, tell your fun story in a moment but first phone lines are open, why don't 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 7884. Any subject under the sun. Your talk about sports. If you want you talk about which dirt is best for growing your grant. What ever you want to talk to me about tell you why working the phones absolutely want to any subject under the sun but I can be of help 866-34-TRUTH 78 a four and I'll tell you this funny story in a moment of time with what's happening. We made a scheduling error today. Either that or guest is delayed. That was going to be in studio with her so hopefully before the hours out and have a great conversation with a great cast about an important new book but since he's not here now either because of a delay getting here or a scheduling error on our part of his part or what ever I I've got free time now on the radio to go in any direction whatsoever.

So always I want to give you the opportunity call in some of them go phones momentarily and start taking some calls. But first, this funny story, a colleague of mine over a few years older than me, went to Wheaton College and did his least his undergrad work there and there was a professor who was of a very different kind of eccentric guy. He he would wear a certain style of tire secretion student tell you, teaching their special back then and it would be hostile and his foster was all just keep wearing it until he comes back in style. So he was kind of his own man, but he was remarkably scheduled, remarkably scheduled so literally every hour of his day.

Every waking hour was scheduled is I had a calendar and every hour scheduled well. He came in to class all excited one day and he said he said I had a free hour yesterday. Something happened in my schedule and I have free hour that was on schedule. He said, so I decided to do something spontaneous. He said, and it was wonderful.

He said so from here on I am to schedule one hour every week for spontaneity's. Here is the schedule one hour every week to do something spot on the spot spontaneous. So anyway we got our little spontaneous things. The phone lines are lighting up and obviously we are in very serious days in terms of turmoil over the elections in the direction of the country. But the biggest thing and I'm saying this in all seriousness before get your calls in a wide range of subjects biggest biggest biggest thing is the state of the church that is more important than who is inaugurated next month. That is more important than the balance Congress or the Supreme Court all these are mega important issues mega mega important huge issues. But the biggest issue in terms of the direction and well-being of America is state of the church. I believe that with all my heart and that my friends something that is in our hands and alludes you and I is God's people as God's children can give ourselves afresh to him and say here I am Cindy use me. We can pray like we never prayed and share the gospel as if people's lives depended on which they do give ourselves to to following the principles of God laid out Scripture in our homes in a personalize in our families is as we do those things friends America can be shaken, so we keep praying for God's righteous outcome and for America to accept the righteous outcome of the elections but some even more important is we been taught about this a lot. Obviously recent days is state of the church right undertake some calls, 866-34-TRUTH and will start with Kevin in Moreno Valley, California. Welcome to light a fire hi Dr. Brown, for having me bed. You bet I'd wanted birthday on kind of acute manic watching you a month ago and I've been able to grow spiritually content or it and hopefully we'll be able to help me with a question that I have a sure thing that came up with my current one.

So glad glad that that we been helped to just go ahead though the question I have is about Ananias Ira back.

How they sold the property and he wanted to donate money and well we know that Orient but that night either the full profit, though the question I have for my dad had it, how come they died for what it but there are other biblical figure that diaper and he didn't die greater right so it's an excellent question, and here's the answer that you have times when God has uniquely revealed himself times when movements are being established times when God is making known his ways and at times like this. Too much is given much is required.

So for example in the book of Leviticus. If if you start reading in chapter age. Aaron and his sons are being set apart for the priesthood right so the tabernacle has been built. This is now a sacred moment in Israel's history, the dedicating of of the first physical dwelling place were gullible, manifest himself among his people. Aaron is the high priest that he is the high priest forgot most on the entire planet right with his his eldest sons. They're all being set apart.

Now, as priests, so you get to the end of the ninth chapter as you go through 89. Every other line of its repeated over and over as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord commanded Moses his large memos right one after another after another after another and then they come to the end of this. And then they offer up other sacrifices on the altar right was a flyer fire comes from the first. This is a good thing the end of the ninth chapter fire comes from the presence of the Lord and consumes the sacrifices so God answers by fire and the people fall down and shout. Now what happens immediately after the beginning of the 10th chapter because there's no break in the Hebrew it's it's in the next thing that happens is the two eldest sons. Now they not of an RV who obviously so excited in the moment. They now offer unauthorized incense, contrary to the Lord's command.

See, just as the Lord commanded as the Lord commanded the Lord commanded fire comes consumes, and now what comes next. They offer unauthorized fire unauthorized incense in the same fire comes from the same presence of the Lord and consumes them. When ours is upset most of the God said he was going to show himself holy so easily show himself holy by blessing or obedience or judging our disobedience.

Now as the months and years go on, things get so bad in the physical temple that you have homosexual prostitutes in the physical temple that you have women weaving for all Shira got a Sasha in the temple and judgment as to come but when it finally comes the temple was destroyed and the people are exiled. So at the beginning it's it's almost like if you look at a bride in her white gown that the time is the stain will show right. But if she wore that down every day for six months and was was gardening and horse riding. The thing would be filthy and you wouldn't even see the stain and then the whole garment would be destroyed. So it's the same thing with Ananias and so far it's it's the very beginning. It's the church in its purity the Holy Spirit has been poured out. These are sacred moments, God is being glorified anything you don't mess with this and it's a great lesson to the church. Hence the chapter tells us the great fear came upon the whole church now get to the book of Revelation Revelation 2 and three. Look at the some of the sin that's being committed among the people of God and and Jesus at him and giving you time to repent, but you haven't sold.

It's often better when judgment comes swiftly to wake us up. And it's almost like someone having a heart attack while they can still change things versus when they have a heart attack and kills them.

So initially the thing is dealt with in a very personal way. And then when sin becomes more casual, more the norm. It gets to the point where the whole nation ends up getting just so that you explain before you are right yeah yeah that make a lot of all right will excellent Dr. Brown. I do want to ask you one thing, I started on managed but I just remembered at that will be very important. I'm pretty sure a lot of this.net question I want to record you a friend came out to me a few night ago and she she asked me why could I most of Jewish the event, but I am a Christian and and she asked me what did I need to write that Christ died on the cross, she couldn't wrap her mind around and wanted only understanding and I can find a way to properly explain things where you know like what you mean you don't know how to explain it and wanted the yeah sure. So you can explain to her that God is just ask if she would agree that the certain crimes should be punished.

You know if if a man rapes a woman he should go to jail for that. If you defraud someone of all their income.

You should pay fines and reimburse her. The words everyone agrees that certain things must be punished.

Murderers should not just go scot-free. So the human race guilty before God. Ultimately, we deserve damnation, but rather than God damn us in his love, his son said I will take the place of of all these people. I will pay for their guilt. So look at it like this.

Look at it as if someone had $1 billion on their credit card and everyone in your city was $1 million in debt and was about to go to jail for the rest of the laws for Phil failure pay their debt and the person with the credit card say I'll pay for it all. II have that much to my account so the son of God being so perfect and righteous said he put all their guilt on my account.

I I will pay for this is I will suffer in their place of Gog. It's okay II put out justice.

There was a pain for simply that let people go scot-free. Except as my purpose and took it.

So God cannot turn around to us and say hey I'm immersing you a put a Justice of Masonic and have mercy on you Kevin McCree son for my emails, email us when you do, you'll get a mini book 7 secrets of the real Messiah into the around the seven secrets of the real Messiah. Read the secret of the atoning power of death of the righteous atoning power rights that would give you insight from a Jewish perspective all right. Thanks for the call her and it's the light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown son 1664 lines wide open.

Just because an unexpected schedule change and then a little less than an hour from now will be back on YouTube so that's asking your Brown Esther to Brown YouTube channel and will be doing or exclusive weekly Q&A all right and thank you for your contribution on our YouTube channel very much simple OG life.

We appreciate it so will be back again little less than an hour. So 15 minutes after this broadcast ends will be back on YouTube for exclusive weekly Q&A chat all right.

Let us go to Dorothy in California have you how to pronounce the name your city to hatchet PII had the accident the wrong place.

Now I got to hatchet the accent on the second syllable what you have to have names like that. Well, I'm obviously nice heritage and that they but to hatch UT okay go ahead. Nice to have.

I never call and talk I mean coming, and I agree with you that early about the state of the church is the most important thing make total fan that you're worrying about everybody you know Macon Donald Trump Savior, but you know I really think you might not be looking at it from the point of view of the average person, and I take my husband about it and I need you to call him and I called Gail you a Donald Trump can become personal president to be out there is got all his vulnerability. Now every time he plugs that everyone knows that Becky felt felt the side so that he can keep those communication line going explain expungement. He puts himself aside all of this would be constantly from the Pratt coming from every angle he let social media depress the press getting everybody in America. Man, I have friend Victor hate because they listened and all the time need to think the devil coming although that keep winning twittering away now and telling a wave going, taking press conference.

He's become like family to a lot about could be so personal.

We never had access to a president like that before, so I think that you know he's worked the everyday hotel. Hard work to keep his promises. Now yeah I got a lot of fall and things but everybody. Everybody knows that the big target and I think it taken a lot of courage for him to remind everybody have paid the murder of the unborn and even encouraged our nation to worship God, and now and now I think people are, over the top because either possibility that this election was one from him. I have how do people feel right when evidence like that just seemed kind of building and building, so I just wanted to say that yet you now you know basically when you say negative failure. Your telling people that there violating God's first commandment.

Don't put any strange that when I mean really hurtful, very hurtful, so solicitous and I really appreciate what you said and I'm so glad you call number one, I've said that every one of us should affirm with all your heart all their soul.

Donald Trump is not our Savior.

When I say that I have people getting furious with me reacting emotionally. Michael why you could put my name and that any human being's name, Barack Obama, Joe Biden's anybody in the world, Franklin Graham, you name it and we all shout yes that person is on our Savior. When I say Trump is not our Savior.

People get furious with me why you getting mad when John Voight said he's the only man I can save America. And when people say it's it's Trump for the destruction of America than were looking to him the wrong way that's that's my concern and that, in other words, whether he's there. There are other people that could be good candidates that could get good jobs done. Know that that if Trump was in here that that there are others I could move forward and have a good conservative agenda and be pro-life and pro-religious liberty after no one else only trumps acceptance dangerous with that when he was saying months ago. The only way I could lose this election as if it's rigged this drink over. This is and they knew the polling data you knows that could be more difficult because before culvert he was going to be in by Lancelot psych that concerns me that setting people up, though, believe him, they don't take the questions Department of Justice. Now they question every branch of government because he says I'm telling psych all right remember when Ted Cruz meeting in 2016 in Iowa. He said was rigged.

The crew stole the election was 2016. So is this is been the rhetoric as far as the target.I understand that but remember he started the fights Ted Cruz, the call is a said his father Phil was involved with the assassination of JFK no outrageous kind of stuff damaging snow stuff they can provoke all kinds of anger and hatred. Sitters. It is a mix I voted for the book from twice right IIII have been on national TV and explain why he's the better vote you know him versus Biden, and I've even written articles explaining why evangelical still support him. Despite all his flaws and II use this example that your nice Christian family, your neighbor is a mixed martial artist. So he's a Inolex Street fight, except those in the cage for money and you drinks and has parties and all that and a violent guy and then your children start getting harassed by this this new family that hates you and hates Christians and one night your they they show up at your house. These this other family and they got knives and they got baseball bats in the ready to kill you and your neighbor comes out jumps on all of them gets beat up and cut at the same time but subdues them tells never come back here and touch when there was more to kill you. We feel, loyalty that persons likely he fought for us like a lot. Is that right so I am as I've written this I I understand it, the danger is that we put too much trust in that we look to him as if it's him over these democracy words. It's him the pro-life movement is over its head and that this is false.

That's that's not the case and and part of our support from is been such that we make excuses.

We look the other way we will realize it be because he comes under such attack.

We feel we have to defend him and I find all the time because we reach millions of people interact in social media lot all the time.

People are far more sensitive about Donald Trump than Jesus. You can someone consult the Lord so it's like a you don't understand or pray fees there were against Donald Trump your trader your liberal or communist wall sums dangerous there so just like there's Trump derangement syndrome that we see in the media where people go crazy against us like you lost your mind. The meters lost her mind. The way they attack him.

You have this loyalty thing on the other hand, call the cult of Trump and I see it on both sides. So as someone who voted for him and wants to see the best for America and is praying for the truth come out for the elections. It also behooves me to say that the church don't put your trust in flesh and blood and you never see, if you look in the New Testament never sees it leaders the Christian leaders looking to people looking to earthly authorities the way many of us are looking to Trump so that's that's what I sought to convey where nothing I want to put a person but God which which I do believe he did.

At least we can honor him and have quit defending them to the point where someone cannot offended by being disloyal to David as opposed whale Trump I mean that rights should honor him as the president absolutely right, and when analyzed when their lies told about him and junk like that, then we should correct that I'm all for absolutely and I voted.

So this is not enough and I know you're coming from a caring heart new I know what kind of man you proved it out to be, but I believe that a lot of people are feeling as though you are accusing them rather than just getting that this might be a problem and that's what my concern.

As you know nothing and being accused unjustly and it sounds I know you're not a poet yet now and it sounds more like that then it does a suggestion that you're concerned about it and this is something you don't want the church the following. That's all I wanted to live. I appreciate that. And this is not nothing falls on deaf ears.

Here you know I listed in the sink. I consider I will say this, that I have no question whatsoever from my interaction personal interaction with people that many have fallen so idolatrous. I I am saying that, but many others haven't. And if you think I'm wrong accusing you know absolutely not.

If the shoe fits wear it and if not then run the same side. So Dorothy thank you and good your husband encourage you to call. It's good that we had this conversation and made the high clear and if it hasn't been clear then hopefully it's a little clearer thank you so much, especially since you don't normally call. I appreciated 8665 light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown I am sitting with brand-new book with Moses telling them up before we started some amazing endorsement starting with Jim Daly prison Focus on the Family. It's called challenging conversations. A practical guide to discuss controversial topics in the church.

Jason, one of the why you wanted to write this book. Why did this book need to be written that dog always coming for me it's always a great question so that you have any you're always a dear friend, a great supporter at the answer to that question is.

I wrote the book because Christians don't know how to have conversations respectfully, we dodge them as much as possible united on this long enough to where when it comes a lot of the controversial things are seen today most people are avoiders or their aggressors may just be listening to that conversation before the break, Michael.

You sit you see how your composure, your respect how she was being yet even though she disagreed and she was cuddling at her case you listen to her and that is a lost art. These days people tend to not listen.

They tend to attack and so yes, there's a lot of issues out there that are very controversial but also the tone and the rhetoric were saying we need to look back at what the Scripture teaches us in the bases. The bus company of the bookings comes from Ephesians 415 speak the truth in love, why do you think so many Christians are afraid to have conversations with you to get defensive. We get angry we avoided was it simply just that we don't have the answers and were not secure.

We stand not having the answers is deftly one of the reasons why, but also apathy like people just don't care nowadays a lot of people don't care whether or not somebody knows the truth, or why they believe what they believe they get there too busy that you wrapped up into their life. There's also fear issues, fear losing a friendship so there's a lot of things that go into relationships but sadly with the two growing generations of millennial's agency or seeing as there's a level of apathy whether like look, that's that's the privatization of your faith in what you believe and why you believe it is between you and whatever deity worship.

I don't care about that I'm focusing on something else.

So I think with the fear grown with the apathy air reasons as to why people oftentimes don't want to get involved.

These controversial topics a few weeks ago we were having dinner with some of her family. Our oldest granddaughter who is 19 and second your liberty University. She was in town with a roommate whose couple years older, and I was talking about challenges to the faith things that kids their age field and objections and issues in the first nice it was mostly in care. Most of you nonbelievers of them in care. So when you mention apathy. That's obviously a big issue friends again.

The name of the book, challenging conversations, Jason Jimenez just how old are you on 4141 art some 65 spirit right in between my oldest granddaughter and my age actually will be closer to her age but you work with a lot of young people how how critical is it that we have these conversations so it's huge because we saw Jesus do it all the time I'm done going through the book of acts right now in our ministry and in our Bonner podcast and just today were covering how Paul himself communicated these issues in front of fastest member, King Agrippa, now Alec when he was and how he provoked himself to the power the Holy Spirit to speak the truth and do it in such a way that was very provocative and and and and compelling, even to the point where Festus you know in the conversation, you know, because I think he was key was being convicted of the of the evidence that Paul is bringing about the resurrection, but needless to say, Michael's, you know, these conversations are are important because this is one way we are to convey the truth of Jesus Christ and we are to be light in the midst of the darkness right now were done with all this political stuff you are getting calls were all getting bombarded by scenes, racism issues regarding abortion issues regarding politics issues regarding LGBT issues. We have to be showing people what the gospel says about these things with the Bible explicitly teaches about the things we can assume nothing. Oftentimes, people assume because we live in America, people know what the Bible says and they don't.

I remember talking to Prof. Darrell Bock, Colleen Nelson go to seminary and he said you years ago we used to be able to tell people it's true because it's in the Bible.

Now we have to tell them it's in the Bible because it's true there is there's not an assumption of the truthfulness, reliability, Scripture affects scriptures often looked at in a negative context are it's a bigoted book about a bigoted God. So the reality is young people are leaving the church. Older people struggling with questions and and we should be welcoming and encouraging the questions that Jason does your book challenging conversations say what we have to talk about this and equip people to have the conversations it equips people to have the conversation first and then addressing key controversial topics are taking place in the church. Yes, we care about what's happening outside the church and culture today. But what we're finding is Christians themselves are divided there. There's a lot of shattered dreams there's a lot of people feel marginalized as a lot of people feel they're being judged harshly or hypocritically some teaching people look this is what the Bible says a Howard a response. So for example tactic number one relate to the person does. That's a common thing.

Finding common ground, building rapport with an individual. Number two is you want to be able to investigate meaning you want to analyze a conversation, listen to them, asked the right question so you can get a good understanding of their background and why they believe what it is they believe in and why they're so passionate about what it is they believe and finally you have to harmonize what that means is yet to translate the conversation because Michael oftentimes what happens in the end of the conversation if it goes that far.

People just maybe get offended. The in the conversation. Oftentimes in the relationship, but I'm telling people to do just practically speaking, no matter what topic with what person would it with whatever time that you have with them is you want to ask question number one is where do we agree in number two. Where do we differ and why and three.

Where do we go from here you can apply that in marriage you can apply than a conversation college campus but also you can apply these conversations, like abortion, LGBT issues, divorce and remarriage and that's why try to equip the Christian in the book. You know what I think of interactions have had with people and it's clear we just passed each other like ships in the night were all were in our own echo chambers and then were just reinforcing our own views. Where's what we should be doing is loving our neighbor first listening so tell me how you would have answered this question Jason Dan Brown famous for the da Vinci code. This other mega best-selling novels you read them, there's always an attack on God organized religion church Catholicism.

Whatever. So you can read between the lines.

Millicent happened to the sky. Growing up right so III go online to check on this and it's readily known. He tells a story that his mother was Episcopalian made organ in the church's father more scientific mathematically oriented. He related to both, but it's got to be about 13. He was having a conflict and is does what the Bible says line of science.

So, according to him, he went and talked to the Episcopal priest of this church is run 13 years old, and set I'm I'm reading the Bible and it seems that science contradicts was was written in the Bible and according to him, the priest answered and said good boys don't ask questions like that and he walked out the church walked away from religion and God's… It happen like that.

What would've been the right response from that Episcopal priest, the right response had been first off, thanking him for taking the time to have a conversation with him that you trust him as a source that he can and you know as a young person look up to and that's important. Hebrews 13 we are to imitate our leaders their faith to consider the Bible says their outcome of living and so when someone says like something like that. That's pretty pretty devastating. I mean there's countless people you and I can think of that were once supposedly walking faithful before God or going to school to become a pastor or theologian, or they want to be a Christian writer and then something happens and it hurts that person it scars and wounds them for whatever reason, and so I would say that the right answer been thanking him saying we are a place where we asked these type of questions we address the kind of doubt that we have us as human beings and we are to seek God for the wisdom that we need to get through whatever situation or conflict that we have in her life that would've been the right course of action and unfortunately was not the case. McKenna Dan Brown got it and then when you press it further.

What if I don't have the answer. I yikes I've I've wondered about this myself.

I don't know how to answer these things. How do I avoid pushing the person away is it that I say let's study this together will be the right approaches. Many times we are approached with things we don't have the answer. So we shut down we get defensive.

Only rebuke the person. So if I don't have the answer and obviously get the book challenging conversations. You get a lot of the answers what's the right approach a youth pastor apparent when the when someone comes with a question they don't have an answer to the first thing we don't want to do is make you feel marginalized by data happens a lot.

We don't want to scold him. I tell people Michael in the book, you can you can critique a person's point of view. Just don't criticize the individual and oftentimes if you can come if you come down on somebody like belittling her.

That's a stupid question or you Nam so much older than you and and this is why you should believe what you like even being forced like even if they do ask a question and you come off being very dogmatic to them and not understanding where the questions coming from that will misses most of the issue.

I think sometimes we do is we get quick to answer the question without understanding the backdrop of the background of the individual and so I always encourage people, especially people there listening that are pastors Michael Yoon, I know this. This is something we learn even from you. You like, ask questions.

It's not just answer the question and moving on but caring for the individual, just like Jesus did. There's a lot of questions that people that were looking for and had but he cared about their story and I think that that's what we need to do in's and lastly it's a this don't just answer the question and then just move on.

Find ways where the Holy Spirit is using you to make a difference. That person's life forth ongoing and a lot of times people are don't do that. They don't take the time to actually lead to a form of discipleship so as a pastor through the years, I've always try to do is if people are in my sphere of influence how my putting myself out there to make myself available not just ask any type of question, but asked a question that can grow into relationship and that's I'm looking for because there's a lot of young people right now who've never ever been discipled and it didn't even know where to look to. So by asking questions can lead to something greater and that's what I want people to open their eyes to a natural when you have these conversations got friends. The book, challenging conversations, Jason Jimenez, at work, you have some conversations in a moment of the summer break started with a call from Estonia got about coated and trusting God versus precautions this conversations we have to have some we have some of these conversations in a moment, but Jason was the best place for folks to get the book.

The best places obvious Amazon, but people connection go to the main website skull challenging conversations.org and there's all these different outlets of where they can get the book and some people don't like to get the book on Amazon they wanted support Baker Christian book distributions are some like that and also by the way, Michael, there's videos and eighth and a free study guide that people can watch by going to challenging conversations.org all right yeah publishers are doing this a lot now. That's why I asked so challenging conversations over check it out.

Find out more about the book within your order then you get all these other Freon benefits within itself be right back because it has some challenging conversations with Jason. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 664 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown sitting here in Venice hours lightning, but the good thing is get him for hours.

Write your own home teaching you explaining and helping mentoring with his book challenging conversations a product God to discuss controversial topics in the church here hairs about this part one challenging conversations about mental health, substance abuse, and pornography.

All we don't have that problem in our church right yeah exactly. So the degree of issues that are there and look not it was trying so you specialize you focus on things as I have so here you're able to help people know he don't don't run from this is it.

It may be your your teenage daughter. It is made, it may be your husband that may veto it may be your youth leader believes these real-life issues, depression, that's his problem. The church points a problem. The church substance abuse. This is part one. All right, let's set let's have some challenging conversation will start in Estonia Preet. Thank you for calling the line of fire what your question hello Dr. Brown thank you for breaking my Christian rearmament into an orchard. Recently the government tightened the rules of wearing masks and formidable strongly suggest just the public meetings, people would wear the mask so her ushers got the instructions from one member of the church that they should have the masks ready if somebody resting in the Sunday meeting but best of both the rebuilder don't bury ushers perfect would offer to mask the people you know but that they just should have been ready anyway with Buster to write, fingering him from the pulpit boasting a piece construction and optimal for the masking song and also strip a token review be the life of the world. If we are afraid of the light was like the word reason I've been there. Examples were given also like to note that Genji Lake who let the light Blake on his end of the 500 under the microscope and so and yeah so also the postal defender game like under the anointing. Sort of like installment and I want us to hold her contrived idea of walking in divine health and preventing cultural perfection and that the same time not taking peppermint preventative measures like wearing the mask.it's on answer from my perspective adjacent first response that when listening to worry about that. The legal issues to listen to the government and this is overreach but just practical. Am I walking in faith and trust in God if I'm saying everyone in the church should wear a mask and socially distance.

What's your take on. I actually think that it's being more sympathetic when you wear a mask in front of people who are afraid of the virus being afraid of the virus is in me that you don't have faith, and when you start quoting Scripture in a sense of using the Bible as a remedial sense to fight the virus.

It's actually inconsistent their times were people healed of their diseases and sicknesses and there's other times are not just like we were having to do with influenza. You wash your hands, just because I wash my hands so they don't get sick does me that I don't have faith when I get in the car, wear my seatbelt does me that I don't have faith in God and protect me in the car manufacturer look at Paul the apostle man who actually had to get the feeling and healed numerous people don't even know the count but we know that he met he administered and healed many people and cast out many demons, yet we see that when he was before Festus in the book of acts for two years. They been falsely accusing and found no proof as to be hit of his guilt and yet here he is, day after day defending himself, and he finally appeals to Caesar as a Roman citizen now member prior to this in acts chapter 23. Guess what happened. He was actually saved from the ambush when they took 40 days of fasting before he was man member and there they they said that we will not eat and drink until we kill up all God intervened and saved him. Now fast forward if he was go back to Jerusalem.

There was a high chance that Paul was to be killed, but he appeals to Caesar to avoid that. Another ambush because he note he knew they were plotting to do that then mean that Paul wasn't trusting God a second time to go back to Jerusalem as a way protecting the first time to protect me.

Second, I'm no use using rationale and he was looking at the evidence before him, and he was using common sense and I think often times we miss that this is common sense for somebody say let's wear a mask when we have a lot of people gather together so that we don't spread that the germs in and also bringing security other people who are more vulnerable to the virus right right great answer. I love the the the in-depth thoughts about Paul there and Preet what what I would just add first name, amen to that.

Second is the principle of love my neighbor right so I don't want my church to be known as the church that doesn't care about the neighbor I don't want my church to be known as the one that spreads the virus in the community so by all means again.

Everyone has to work this out personally but it's not anti-faith that's that's love and then let's say that you have a child right in your child count gets a bad cold right and it's it's Sunday morning. Will you keep your child home is to bring them to the nursery to be practical right to a not infect the other kids. That's what it says in Proverbs 22 that that a foolish man sees disaster and runs ahead bitter and inns punished a shrewd person sees it and avoids it. So it's just practical wisdom walking in love. No, we don't want walking fear right but you don't overcome fear by by the presumption.

As for John's you like it that's a miraculous torts destroyed extraordinary want. But bear in mind also that his own wife died in Africa, South Africa. He went there with his wife and seven children.

Five years later came back without his wife. If you died, so the still human beings right right so you will not be honoring of your pastor, but say hey why don't we just walk in love and is in this wisdom and I also know in the states documented cases of pastors getting up and saying even using the John Kulik example or saying you know God is bigger than this virus and they are now dead. They died of the virus. Russell right yeah that's yeah those are your thoughts on it all right thank you so much for the really helpful and can't yet be was like obviously your pastor is trying to do the right thing in this pressure you know of, but this is a hope practical wisdom. Thank you for the call from Estonia.

God bless you brother. Thank you Yet Jason is this interesting how their issues affecting the whole world and in the church should have answer should not yeah well you know it's sad tears. We are kind of joking in a way just to try to make light of it to some degree, but now you have mask lists Christians versus massed Christians, you know, I mean, it is becoming a divisive topic now and some people are judging churches that are open partially in wearing masks and thinking that they're not boldly proclaiming the gospel or their lemming big government to infringe upon their religious freedoms. I actually wrote an article saying I agree with John MacArthur and Andy Stanley John MacArthur said were holding services of the government's overreaching and Andy Stanley seminar holding services for the rest of the year publicly because we want to work with our government onerous is that they both in their situations and try to do the right thing and you have to accept that. All right, how about a mildly controversial political again.

The book challenging conversations.

Jason Jimenez taken out a challenging conversations.org let's go right over Charlotte North Carolina Norman you're on the line of fire. Something like Marco my question is with regards to on. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but a couple weeks back. Though the video going around Apollo white praying on behalf of president from guess you know praying for the truth to come out for him to basically to win reelection with hauling angels from Africa that was's.

Yes, though, my question about that is the one is that shoot Christians that support trauma of should that give them calls for four alarms that she is considered a spiritual advisor and if that is the case, what does that say about everything prior to you know what does that say about his presidency. Up until this point.

Okay, got it cases and I have time to say but I will hear from you as a citizen is really going to have a database with a question. You know, it really only first off, we pray for Paula White. I think that calling certain angels out certain areas. I don't necessary see that in Scripture, though I do see in spiritual warfare that there's designated areas were reduced. The demons are in a placating certain areas and certain angels are coming to bring relief particular in Daniel chapter 10 so not that she was siding these verses to support what she was saying. I do think prophetically what she was proclaiming.

I just don't see that in Scripture and I think that there is concern there has been concern, I would say Michael my part of seeing somebody like that. That's been close to the president and the Christian perspective, giving him guidance and support. But that does not mean that even in the missive.

I believe some of the aberrant teaching Apollo white does not mean that she was not guiding him respectfully giving him some godly counsel. So when you see her giving these prophetic words from the pulpit, thus saith the Lord. I don't think that that was prophetic at all.yes so I'm I'm going to be very much in harmony Norman with with Jason and say number one. Prepares like that in private because you broadcast them and it it rings letter approach.

That's one thing a second thing is, she probably is had a lot of good stuff to say to him, and then there are aspects of her theology. That to me or or fringe charismatic that I would hope she's not influencing them with cancer. Though there are a lot of fine evangelical leaders, people with real integrity solid in the world who been close to the president and have tried to speak into his life so she certain of the owner. She was the only one I be very concerned because of aspects of theology that I would consider a flick your friends. But then again I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff that she's brought her encouragement. But I I. Under no circumstances would pray for Trump to be elected or Biden to be elected, I will vote my conscience and I pray God your will you bring about your plan and and if were concerned about fraud, you bring about a righteous outcome sought.

I don't agree with aspects of the prayer that were prayed, but I think Trump is ultimately so man for better or for worse, and I wish some of the people that I know that that have been close to him have been able to make a greater impact. Write the book, challenging conversations, challenging conversations.org check it out or just top of Amazon order, it puts out as well. Awesome get hold of it.

I'm holding my hand great book