A Discussion About Christian Leaders and Politics

Has the gospel become too politicized in America today. It's time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown for friends.

Thanks for turning into the line of fire.

This is Michael Brown I'm not taking your calls today, but I have a colleague missing a Jewish leader lawyer colleague in Israel you be having a lively discussion about evangelicals in America. Followers of Jesus in America have we become too politicized, as it now come to a head with the evangelical support of Donald Trump has that hurt the gospel more than it is help the gospel a Jimmy Cowan is presently a partner in Cohen Decker packs and brush law offices in Tel Aviv.

I he served as a messianic rabbi in Israel in the states he's been president of Russian immigration services in Richmond, Virginia, president of the union of messianic Jewish congregations back in the late 70s, mid 80s, he was chief counsel TNS U.S. Senate subcommittee and assistant to the majority whip of the U.S. Senate. So he's got a lot of experience within government and then as a leader in ministry now lawyer and a messianic Jew in Israel and Jim and I going to the for decades. We just got back in touch recently because of some conversation were having about these very issues, but Jamie welcome to modify, thanks for joining us.

When did you find out about your family history and how your name became Cowan. Well, I guess because I was I was born: Siri GN Jewish name of my father when I was two years old. He changed accountings regarding politics and I found out probably what I was late you have any early teens are in before that was heaven, and many explain why was Kellan in the 1950s 21 in politics being June and June, American politics was was not common and not popular and Gnostic and potentially could be a potential source of discrimination. So that was the reason for the name change and the was it. Now it now in Israel are you calling you. I am: that's a whole other story would have a whole other broadcast that all happened, they were guessing: it is you, as always, introduce the US avoid a second later the second most like it okay partner in Cohen Decker wait a second. So you have the light went out for me.

So JD, you were very much involved in the political scene. I remember newsletters that you would put out while you were in ministry and you would talk about the issues in the society. Talk about cultural issues. I don't remember you endorsing candidates. I do remember you talking about issues but but you feel that we become way too politicized.

In America, so it explain what you feel is the problem and how it's come to a head with Donald Trump.

Yeah it has great question. You know I was. I was, when he said I was working in the Congress in the midst from the mid-70s until the mid-80s and you know when I was there when the Moral Majority was formed.

I mean it was so four 979 and I remember reclamation very very well. My member number the evangelical leaders who were involved with. It never making you know basically raising up, political force to effect cultural change in American I was really disturbed felt like it was it was to have a negative backlash. I see the gospel as being something quickly different transformational in of itself without forcing through legislation stuff which really backfire and then ultimately a few years later and early 80s, Pat Robertson was up to see my boss Sen., and I was able to have dialogue with him personally and privately about the issues because that riser had become increasingly more political, yet in early years really was the widow's father was U.S. Senate earlier but I dialogue with him and I just told him I said you know I think you really make this a big mistake and I think assistant ultimately really backfire and select. We didn't really share my view at all, especially when that writer president these years later, but of so you know over the years.

I just really seen this happen was in 1990 when I took over the congregation in Richmond, Virginia, and really, all those years 22 years I never spoke about politics. All you will have more political background really than anybody there. I just didn't do it and it was appropriate to encourage people to vote, but I was about it.

The one time right spoke to the subject was during the Obama election of the first Obama election 2008 when a lot of negative things were being said about Obama. They were starting to creep into the congregation know exist no screening division. So I spoke I give a talk called the religion and politics and just focused on the history of religion and state religion estate, religion, politics, and how that has really created some very serious problem throughout history and that really really think constitutional writers haven't had a good idea in my keeping church and state separate provided freedom of worship and United States quite religious countries. Great, so that calm things down. I think in our congregation, but no, we moved Israel in 2011 and things just got more progressively heated in the United States, and it is culminated in the election of Donald Trump.

And while it's just really telling. Listeners. This is A gunfire like Christ right so slowly that we just jump in and we we want to flesh this out because in a lot of ways. Jimmy and I absolutely agree totally great and I could point to things I've written for years, saying that that our hope is in the gospel of the great commission, not in government and yet I I do believe we have some areas of different suite will not want to flush these things out but Jamie I was not focused on Moral Majority or anything. Back in those days, but James Robison is a dear friend by now was with them in the early days with Jerry fall all those he didn't like the name Moral Majority and he was concerned that it would become an appendage of the Republican Party in certain ways that has happened and get politicized the Association of the group with a political party can be very damaging but let me just back this up and asked philosophically if you would've had the exact same standpoint as a pastor during the days of slavery in America would you say church state separation.

We don't get involved with legislating morality, things like that. Would you conduct yourself the same way. Would you said as disciples as as followers of Jesus need to combat this moral and social evil. Both on the ground and politically, yet know it's an excellent question. And yes, absolutely. I mean, I think you I see our role as believers is having a prophetic voice in the society and into government and so when we see injustice when we see inequality. Whatever wheat we are to speak it forth and so I you know I have no impact and I now have no problem but I was in verse 11 provide since I've been a believer and Vince been very active in that kind of that movement was on the board of the crisis pregnancy center many years in Virginia is and so you not as far as speaking into societal issues absolutely against the examples in the gospel and in the province constantly and so I was always there was slavery speak against it. I think speaking is worth invalidating speaking as income equality is valid racism about always that you tend things that we can address I think is valid. I think the big problem though was when is when leaders begin to use publicly support and endorse political candidates associate themselves with particular political party.

I think that is very, very dangerous and we would have exist is that the believers get ends up getting used as tools of the political leadership that you there. There's no question that we often get used. No question about that whatsoever. And, and I want to come back to the prophetic voice and speaking to issues but first and end with with full candor and without worrying about offending many my viewers and listeners who have voted for Donald Trump.

What is your view of what our public association with Donald Trump has done to the reputation of the gospel to speak totally freely yeah as he has been very very damaging I you know I produced numerous blogs on my own YouTube channel, and the numerous writings and and I said again and again that you know I don't really care who people vote for people on over Donald Trump and Joe Biden was an independent person is up to them. You know, I think, however, when we as believers probably associate ourselves with any politician, especially one who is in honestly is just as an outwardly ungodly life and is really in his character and his speech is the antithesis of Jesus the Messiah.

Well, when we when we make when we associate with that with that person and that with whatever the reason is permanent because it's because were supporting policies and whatever vulva I think where we just permit where make yourself look like a bunch of hypocrites. So really have to be honest, it I believe over 50% of the United States which is not vote for Donald Trump is also good meat is turned off to the gospel for the very reason Association.

I think that's the big problem right so obviously one reason I wrote evangelicals at the crossroads we passed the Trump test was to say, can we vote for Donald Trump and be known as voting for Donald Trump without compromising her gospel witness believe there's a way to do that and I believe and agree with Jamie that to the extent we have been apologist for the president or defenders of the president or just blind supporters that we really have damage the cause of the gospel.

No question.

But Jamie my experiences been that I got far more resistance for more hatred from the world far more pushback against the gospel just for being a prophetic voice interesting. I was working for Donald Trump was following that logic that if I take a public stand that it's gonna hurt the message of the gospel, but I would never speak out about controversial moral and cultural issues. We got about a minute before the break. Just start to respond to that first going to say that of being a messianic Jew and think you and I are both well aware of opposition to or especially the Jewish community and stuff so you know that that's the accepted yeah I you know. Look, I think certainly positions that we take her not to be necessary. Popular with that with the culture. This veering off from what would Michael Google standards, but I think the reality is that heard it again and again exceeded holes that many, many of the younger generation are just turned off because of the associations with Donald Trump of the Republican Party. What would they consider intolerance and so on and I just think we need to step back again who you vote for great. It doesn't matter, but we need to step back for public association is a huge error. All right friends really continue this discussion with Jamie Cowan, really: taking time and in Israel and will be taking call so we can talk this through and look vis-à-vis big issues.

These are important issues when my friends in Australia said that witnessing his outreach in American Australia has been heard because of Christian association with Trump in America we do about. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution of your again is Dr. Michael Brown I'm speaking with a friend and colleague in Israel.

Jamie: Jamie is an attorney. He has been a messianic Jewish leader for many years and were discussing evangelicals and politics followers of Yeshua and political involvement. And when we openly identify with the party we openly identify with the candidate, especially when leaders endorse that person then Jamie say look at as a negative impact on the gospel because people will now sink okay Franklin Graham he's famous Christian leader Robert Jeffrey sees a famous Christian leader and this woman that one in there openly supporting Donald Trump so the set mean that to follow Jesus, I have to agree with Donald Trump or what if I am interested in Jesus, but I don't like Donald Trump to see come along with oversimplifying this kind of the way it it breaks down so Jamie, here's here's my question for you.

You're saying that we should vote and we should be involved in the political system because it's it's a world in which we live.

Just like in Israel you get to vote it's it's a very interesting democratic system there but you get to cast about its our public association that's problematic. So let's let's let's go back to say controversial issues like homosexual activists when when Franklin Graham was banned from speaking certain events in in England this year they were this different venues canceled out the reasons that they canceled the given reasons were primarily the fact that he opposed gay marriage and things like that and then secondarily that he had spoken against Islam. But aren't those things that we should be doing as followers of Jesus. In fact, it never was the fact that he was a Trump supporter really wasn't the issue at all, but then come up at all with Samaritan's purse got got rejected from being in New York as they were serving covert victims. It was entirely over the LGBT issues. The Trump thing really was distant, if even there.

It also again work if we if we think that's gonna hurt the gospel and yet you must be a prophetic voice by being a prophetic voice that's gonna raise these other issues, as is baggage with the gospel want not know if it is perfectly valid and not just I think the question becomes is you know what what is what is our primary mission.

You know whatever it is that mean I was the Samaritan's purse. For example, you giving is like communitarianism get another reason people reaching people of the gospel through works like concern for service projects is the Lyon Street. So the question then becomes, is why does somebody like that need to take like a really public position as a Christian leader against homosexuality or homosexual activism, something that is not enough for that. But don't get me wrong words, what is what is the mission whatever you're doing and does it end up compromising your ultimate mission by that stands that you might be taking.

So as an example. You be perfect example in our congregation. Virginia was right across the street from Virginia's largest abortion clinic directly across the street. We had picketers that would commenced in front of our congregation and there's a Saturday mornings with people in common with just be like chaos stop sucking on so what happened was early on we had some people who were very involved in antiabortion activism and they wanted to put up with our entrance tables of light did Basie know of that deadening unborn babies and stuff like that is to show that we were pro-life and so on and so I said no way I was nuts. Not that I'm a pro horse and absolutely opposite but none was my mission or mission of the congregation was seen Jewish people come to faith in Jesus. Most choose a pro-abortion so you think may walk in the door they see this dead baby in on some pamphlet out to go there. We hear the message so sent the question is what is our essential message and then to make sure that that doesn't end up getting compromised or stuff that unfortunately it hurts somewhat. I know in my view, decide issues so that our response right so some preliminary pushback on that with all respect, Jamie, and you say that okay first year.

The question is where does one draw the line right if if if if there were concentration camps across the street if their crematory of for Jews that were being killed across the street. Nazi Germany doing may not speak up because many people in Germany thought that Hitler was a good guy and didn't realize all the evils and if we mixed Hitler and with the gospel been then people get confused on this and it also sold that the goal of the great commission is to make disciples. The question is how disciples live and disciples are now going to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, there can be those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the king of gods that my beating tricky bit of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit removed to address this issue. So, at what point did in graduate to addressing these because what I hear it day and night. Jamie, I was called by the Lord in 2004.

To my surprise, to begin addressing homosexual issues. I got commission from the Lord. Reach out and resist reach out to the people with compassion resist the gender with courage. I have been in constant demand since then because there is a massive crisis in the society and the church and and not a day goes by where someone is succinct. Dr. Brown thank you thank you for speaking out there so few we feel like we're losing our minds we feel like no one is articulate our position were seeing this ideology spreads were a site where watching our kids fall away from Jesus because they are so influenced by the world around them and they're getting so pulled in these anti-Christian movements and are very freedoms of religion are being taken away by this activism sank got you been a lifeline for me and now I have something to help my family with. How can I not speak out the fact they get hated and Montfort, so be it. But look, we we want Jewish people hear the message of Jesus, but we know that Jesus is the thing the resisting.

Most and yet we know it's the proclamation and the power to spare this concurrent heart so this is right. This is where I struggle. I agree with so much of what you're saying about getting overly political. Being an appendage of political party being used by that party being associated with a particular candidate more than were associated with Jesus those are all real issues and I continue to address that and you and I agree on those things, but work where I'm having a problem is the line you're drawing because if I'm making disciples. Those disciples in the days of slavery they would want to address that.

That was a volatile issue in the church back then but but you have to address it it it's you give us a will there's a slave camp where they're coming in in and come off the boat and chains and they're being auctioned off. That's right across the street from us, but if we draw attention to that. First the pros and interrogation can alienate people in a pro slave. That to me is is now from entering into compromise in the process, you raise a valid point in your your particular calling is completely understandable and justifiable. The difference, though, however between somebody like yourself that you describe what you felt like God called you to address this direct issue. That doesn't mean that every every Christian leader. Therefore whatever they're doing whatever whatever organization are part of whatever ministry that their part has to do also take like a public position either in favor of not suggesting that any in any sense, but at least you know, like to confront and stuff like that. I mean, for instance, "back in my experience are my own congregation. You know I would speak about sexual issues with variation in it. I would include in that issues of homosexuality or abortion or whatever, but was part of a broader kind of message to assist the congregants and wrestling with all the all the dynamics of the various issues that there addressing how to understand from the word of God rather than having a blanket like message out that homosexuality is sin is not of God, and so on and so forth, which again is fine if you going to do that but I think the issue is always is what is the ministry that you called me about a course. But what you're saying we extended down to disciples. We expect disciples of Jesus also be asked is generally pro-life. Not to be in favor gay marriage is only bad, but then also to enable it to acquit them about what happens when friends do things like this. For instance, I get a message to couple years ago when all these issues were arising in the states and Québec states give a message in several places: called navigating our cultural changes and I talked about you know what happens when somebody in your family comes out as gay or whatever numbers you just you ostracized and you get them out of the family know me personally got kicked out of my family for 30 years that I was a believer followers of Jesus, so, so I know the pain of being ostracized and kicked our families and so how do you address it. I think those are the kinds of tomatoes are some of the issues that have to be addressed in a broader perspective right and of course with Jan that I just hosted documentary that was released. Couple days ago called in his image put out by American family studios so I was the host of it dealing with what the Bible says about being created in God's image is male-female, etc. and then testimonies from ex-gays and ex-trans people but when I was doing a radio interview with the director and the producer of of the documentary, the director said that we were trying to figure out who to have on to hostess and to help us put this together.

They said immediately with a name that came to my because of compassion. So in other words, they they know that we start with compassion towards people looking at people as individuals, led by God from Yeshua died and then we address the issues in the culture. But I want one continue our discussion about a minute be before the the break so I'll just put this out for you want to move over to Israel for minute and then will come back to to America the first of we come back if you could take a minute to explain the political system works in Israel and then I want to ask you of a few theoretical things in terms of if this happened. If this happened, would you change your view of speaking out are you doing things the same in his Robbins is a totally different scene in Israel as opposed to to America, which is so dominated by evangelical leaders in faith and things like that so will continue our dialogue and discussion and friends.

Let's agree on this. This is a saying that in evangelicals is the crossroads we passed the contest part of precedent passing the contest is can we unify around Jesus. Even if we disagree about the president.

Can we say let's be warning him and pursue what we all agree on of the fundamentals.

The things that God wants us to blame ourselves to differ on president all right will be right back to this, the light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends welcome to the line of fire.

I'm not taking calls today I'm in dialogue via Skype with an old friend and colleague Jamie Cowan actually Jamie Cohen and he's been a messianic Jewish leader attorney Rabbi for many years now living in Israel and active.

There we been having a discussion about the intersection of the gospel in politics. Believers in the culture wars. What's healthy, was unhealthy and I want to ask a few questions that would relate specifically to Israel but Jamie if you could just explain in simple terms how many parties there are normally in Israel and then how you you vote in Israel compared to America okay great yeah actually am very involved in the Israeli political scene on activists with one of the local parties here yesterday. There is a future led by Ira P and active in the last several elections, and by the way, not actively administering as there's a little bit of difference. But anyway, as a way that structured it is really a form of government is very different than the United States itself is multiple parties elect US it's generally just as two-part as the US, Israel has multiple parties right now in the Knesset is about 10 to 11 parties represented, which means that in any one election violence never happened where one party actually has a majority of the parliamentary seats so that means that you form a coalition of different parties together some most the time it's can be as little as four, sometimes up to six or seven write-downs quite high. The numbers and so that creates just tremendous turmoil try to try to get a government through a government in Israel is supposed to last for a full four years but no government has ever managed to last for four years because they because of the coalition system. One party says I'm tired of what you're doing with the leaders are doing so I'm calling out in the government calls that had to have another election so that that's what it is the way it works great. All right, so it interest at and I will make clear Jamie that if I press on details on the track and I try to have a gotcha moment or catch you in a contradiction looking for clarification. Okay, you know my at my intentions are honorable here.

So yes you are.

Your nose a messianic Jew right inside a secret that your believer in his red Oak, I'm a sucker don't just broadcasted everywhere or you know someone walks in the law offices of first in the here but that's that's that's known you were a messianic rabbi universe messianic Jew, just as a disciple. Forget not being in public ministry, but just as a disciple known for your witness on your now confusing things with people who think while there's no can be baggage discussed messianic Jew and is prominent and and he's with geisha teeth and out like a sharp teeth so therefore that that mixes my picture preshow is.

Is it the exact same thing you're talking right here in America just on a smaller scale. Not really because were not. It's not as if the messianic community is the Google alert will that be a huge community but it's not time to talk about you 15 to 20,000 people, of which most of them but most of it will go to different parties anyway so so what time it is one Joe Schmoe, Jamie, in this case who happens to be a messianic Jew and is working with the party in and know my real name was to be able to branch into the political system to be able to give a voice to messianic Jews so that they would be persecuted because were persecuted over here not allowed to immigrate as messianic Jews.

They find out that you are regarding bar immigration so you know that that's it. So this is you, not having a huge you know evangelical group that is basically the largest constituency of the Republican Party into a world of difference. All right, so I'm obviously if folks if there is a poll done is people are leaving that the voting places.

And if you find out through the polling that 81% of white evangelicals form for trump they were not. This lets anyone even announcing it. Let's say Frank and grandma Robert Jefferson knows without publicly speaking for trump sponsor exit poll so people like that ought to keep secret.

They both form and that would be it would be completely absurd but let me let me go back just repressing this a little further here.

Let's say since your goal is a messianic Jew in Israel. Your greatest goal is that our people know Yeshua that's our our our greatest goal of all the financial security or political security, but ultimately, like any follow Jesus our greatest goals that our people know him. Let's just say all of the parties were were decidedly against freedom of religion for messianic Jews, be they clearly wanted no immigration of messages coming in and try to kick out those that there were nativeborn Israelis and things like that. They were just all hostile… Geisha teeth was the one party that was really going to take a stand so that you can stay in the land and be witnesses and and would it be wrong for messianic leaders messianic pastors to say listen if you want to stay here in Israel. Right now it's important to vote and I know there many issues, but I won't tell you why I'm voting for geisha teeth.

Why would that be now crossing a line that somehow forbid not. That's what I'm still not getting yeah is a really good question.

I think my answer would be this that I think of as the when you especially your Congregational leader, your view as someone that represents God to the community you know and you're expected to be a model. You know, modeling God's character and soul and also the voice of the Lord. And so you know this is what I was leaving the congregation. I I believed that I was speaking the words of God when I was speaking from the pulpit and challenging people to walk with God to be like on select that. On the other hand I wouldn't get out there and say okay would you need for your decisions about how spider your decisions about doing this or that society is what you need to do and because I think I would cross the line into opposing my will on to their lives in between them and God. And I think it's very the same is true about about voting about like political candidates. In other words, if I is the spiritual leader say I'm voting for this president, and so on their the people interviewed out because of the their perspective towards me as common in premature gods commenter upon that particular candidate as it is now God's will that we vote for this particular candidate. I think it's a huge mistake and I think that's what is happening historically, you know, in many societies where you get the merger of the state of religion is where you end up having people who represent both the state and religion and becomes like a disaster generously disasters and I think that that's the trend. Unfortunately, in the United States.

Yeah it it it is a dangerous trend again II agree with that, where I would see things differently would be one as a correlational leader, I would want to disciple my people strongly enough to say hey here's why I'm voting this way, but I will truly look at the issues. Pray them through comes your own conclusions that yes, I know you respect my views this run coming from but I want to really work this through think this through. Between you and the Lord look at the issues I don't I don't see what would be unhealthy about doing that, especially especially if they are life-and-death. Note right now the Democratic Party's most radical pro-abortion party we've ever seen. This is not the party of the Bill Clinton days and in your time at extreme positions. Your termite real attacks on freedom of religion you're talking about some very, very aggressive, LGBT Q platforms. I mean I have no promise it over and over.

If someone says I can't vote for Donald Trump in good conscience, so I'm I'm sick I'm not sitting I'm not voting for president or I'm casting a third-party protest vote, I've said over okay I respect that. I honor that. But here's why I differ with a believer voting Democrat for five reasons out you work it out between you and the Lord, but what what I've seen, putting 99 here let me back up the vast majority of churches that I know around America don't adequately prepare their people to vote on issues they don't adequately say hey we just want to know where each party stands on each issue you know where our teaching is now you review this and vote accordingly. The vast majority of carnations don't do that. Of those that do, putting 99% don't say how their voting, they just say, hey, look at the issues where the party stand and vote accordingly and please don't even reveal how their voting so I see it primarily as is that the issues are our momentous issues again to kind of back it up. Would you if you could foresee some terrible disaster coming so we use the extreme example, if you are in Germany and you had the foresight to see that the danger of of Hitler and and the Nazis in your pastor or leader wouldn't have been wrong like about half are others.

Forget the assassination plot.

Over the been wrong to speak up against specific candidates and to Warren or even to say hey we got a brother in our midst is willing to run against this. Let stand in support.

It is there never a time when this line can be crossed as a correlational leader will here's the problem. I mean, you raise a lot of issues here in this event get room in the mall but I would just say this, that, first of all yeah you know you have hit Adolf Hitler. Yeah, sure, and the problem is their course in Germany that almost all the churches supported Hitler for a variety of different reasons. So know that this this is been part of the problem with Christian involvement in politics is that they often support somebody or they get when they get so involved in the end of supporting autocratic dictate dictatorial leaders is really a disaster. But here's here's my problem with with the same when you're saying that you not telling the congregation. Here's the issues.

I remember this again going back years ago when I was in the congregation shortly after I come there and come straight back Saigon from working Congress to the seminary that you are heading up that was part of it.

I was in your class and yeah so to creation regions and right away there is organization, not to mention them because I don't want to mention people are organizations, but they provided voting guides for the Carnation for the very things that you're talking about other words, how to know where candidates stand on the issues so I read and it was it was that was so biased that was beyond belief only was displayed beyond belief bias because here you're talking to a person camp in the political world who understands why people vote the way they do.

There's like tabling motions, the motion to reconsider and always do stuff that goes on all these things can be twisted to make it look like this person is against this issuer is a certain percentage of times the vote against this issue and so I using all the statistics which badly distort the persons voting records and even the issues and and so on and so so I prohibited voting guides in the Carnation for that reason. If people want to know how to vote.

They could tune into the debate. I didn't listen or they can read the paper party platforms language are talking about and made a decision for themselves they don't need me to come along and say this happens the how I'm gonna vote is liable. Voting this way and now it's up to you because what's already happened is I've already heavily influence them because they're looking at me as a spokesperson for God. That's the problem got it all right appreciate you plan it out and want to come back to the larger political system of speaking with Jamie Cohen. He was born: name changed to Colin back to: living in Israel serving Israel do very important work. There any humor in harmony and so much but have some differences will try to flesh them out the last few minutes will be right back. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice aboard cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown yet.

Time flies like I cannot coming to her last segment ready as I speak with my old friend and colleague Jimmy: in Israel. In tell you how many years have you been living in Israel. Now Tammy is not of times this about nine years of amazing. Yeah, I had I lost track of of the time. All right, so let me try to work something out here on a very very simple level. Let's say in in your school district. Your your your past your messianic rabbi in in your local school district, the county where you're based in most your people live there is a really aggressive sex ed curriculum that's been introduced into the schools and it's going to start its K-12 it's really bad and then some extreme critical race theory, things being brought in. Everything's gonna be taught through that lens and you actually find out that there's some overt anti-Christian bias that's built into some of the curriculum and parents get very upset over this. Their kids are coming home upset you.

Looking at the programs that are in and the plans so you going to meet with your teachers teach so we need to speak to the administrator. The parents become the mistress old. This comes from the school board this this is dictated by the local school board and and now there's going to be a vote it's it's time for new school board members and a few people in your congregation say we do some about this.

Let's get involved with the school board and and it would be wrong to tell your congregation hate want to know to folks you know them right here in our midst there to be running for local school board, and we know the agenda of the others they'd made it clear in their public statements. So let's get involved, let's back them. Would that be wrong yeah get again. The question I would I would say look, I would say as far as this issuer to arise that even even a dozen spiritual leader, and I feel free to go and stand for the school board and say looking eyes stones is inappropriate in a variety of different reasons.

Volleyball and the same with members of the congregation wanted to do that is against greed to but I again I would not be in a position of singularly custom candidates here in the congregation. Raise your hand stand up another run for the school board meeting hid behind about how I'm not that got it again and again.

That's right that's right would have some of the differences to think will want. Why is a line being crossed here where Scripture lay out that line and in using your same argument that that you would not want pictures of dead babies with people coming to the congregation. Could you try to reach Jews and most Jews are liberal proportional. Most users of the liberal school curriculum to and you probably can alienate the same juice if you go to the to the local board meeting school board meeting is and speak out so I just don't know how we can avoid the.

The other issues being apologists for Donald Trump big error being defenders of the president being known more as is his supporters them are known as as followers of Jesus, big, big mistake. It's deftly heard our witness. As I said, he's done more to help evangelical causes than any president, memory, and done more to hurt the evangelical cause than any president memory sought again I'm I'm with you, and a lot of the concerns but I guess my own experience Justin for righteousness issues or my friends a bit on the front lines of the pro-life movement in the literally help save thousands of babies are leaders in the literal numbers and you can see the pictures and the families in all of this babe and hated reviled for those issues and how they vote is almost completely secondary to that and that's that's rough on the challenger for can have a prophetic voice. Now there's going to be controversy associated with the message of the gospel and on the how to avoid that nobody honestly, there is but again there is a huge difference between endorsing or publicly supporting political candidates and so on.

I think as far as the congregation taking out your people are garbage and even a leader being involved in the same pro-life activities of the that's fine as a people going to the March for life in Washington DC area annually. I think that's fine I think is also fine to go to black lives matter protested in ghettos and support racial you know racial equality in the event also be due as a believer that these are all fine. You know, it's just that when we we join together as a supporting specific candidates and then following that into a political party because of the whole process of the politicization of the gospel is occurred over 20 to 30 years. Every time it didn't just happen with the Moral Majority happened over time it grew and grew and grew until begin associated with the Republican Party, which I think is but it is it is a disaster. Even though I'm a Republican and I've been in my entire life, you know, and served in the Republican Congress.

So when he said no. It's interesting is that I'm actually registered as an independent even though I voted Republican for various candidates for some years I'm registered as an independent justice my own voice of conscience to say that I do not publicly identify as a member of either party, and I ultimately don't put my trust in the political system to bring about lasting change.

I just see that as part of another as if if you said to me okay Mike give me 10 ways that that you as a believer see that America can be changed. What start with with prayer and fasting die go to repentance in the church I go to win in the lossmaking disciples I go to acts of compassionate service in our community. I go to standing up for issues being a prophetic voice and somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10 would be voting it would be in their you is someone who is an insider, the political system in America and now in Israel so that similar but different. Are you skeptical in general of of the political system ever changing or standing for righteousness or one party really having influence for good and one for bad or if there were to come to Seneca like ads always is going to be a mix would you think that real change can happen partly through the political system seems really good question is a complicated question that I think that you know it was Martin Luther King that Ashley talked about you know the society by bending towards righteousness, and I think that in many in some respects, not all. In some respects the United States has become a better country throughout the years. Torrance's racially quality equality for women trick-or-treating treating people recycling so that the problem is that there is a mixture you know. And some of some of the cultural changes are very problem argument is very Merry problematic in so with both parties. I think there's both positives and negatives for both parties. You know I've until 2016.

I voted consistently Republican. I didn't vote a Republican 2016.

I won't.

This time either. Mainly because of Donald Trump but you know somebody asked me just recently where about 2024.

The relatives put together some you bring somebody who's not white you know many ankle. To be honest I probably supported because I do not support people or microwaves, and so on. And I do believe in more of a conservative type government smaller government, stuff like that.

On the other hand, the Democratic Party supported immigrants I work with. I work with immigrants of them were in agreement with their initial 25 years in an immigration attorney sensitivity towards them, helping them, helping the core helping the marginalizing I think there's a lot in the Bible that we can before and be affecting change, including the unborn are short so so Jamie what what if what if God was expecting you as a leader position directly across from an abortion clinic to to be the strongest voice in the community and to say okay every day babies being killed in the womb. There's nothing in the Bible that grieves God more than shedding of innocent blood. Argosy idolatry. But then at least all the other sins shedding of innocent blood dealing with the least of these, and it doesn't it doesn't mean necessarily that you had to have pictures of the babies and people walked in but that your congregation was number one active in sharing the good news, giving women a options help you work for adoption or getting limited to to keep their babies and things like that. What what if all obviously I'm a tell you what God was telling you to do, but what if your pastor and that's that's your assignment you directly across from abortion clinic us as I put you there for recent soft course is, can alienate certain people and you got a mission lives are being lost lies being taken. You need to do something doesn't does that ever override your concerns about crossing lines. Well first of all, we were much does a pro-life congregation was no secret dislike is that I wasn't as a board member of a crisis pregnancy center which is only a couple blocks from the abortion clinic is very active in that part of the movement we had our congregation who would you stand in front of the clinic and and would intercept women coming in for abortion so this is what happened you know that people were involved. They knew that, but again is a big difference. You're doing that in standing up in the fraud of the congregation, saying, you know, we can bring down this clinic will do everything we can, because again mice is my product. My view is my as a leader of the congregation was see Jewish people come to the Lord and analysis continue to harp on this issue.

They would never even come through the doors always yeah I understand it, yeah, yeah, and I'm just jumping in on because the time and I didn't mean that that would be the number one mission that would just be an important part of it and let you know Jim, you know, my perspective that there are many things I differ with about the present. My last article I mentioned his name ice stand against all these things I would plead with intact differently. But then what I feel really existential issues right now in America cancel culture by democracy real attack on freedom of religion worst assault we have on on our laws to protect the lives of the unborn, various other things that are very large nature.

Those reasons are a vote for Donald Trump and absolutely not his apologist or defender and to me.

I want the world to know it a trillion times more than a follower of Yeshua then voted for Trump using a common goal is names can be forgotten, but this one name work were going to live or die for forever, so Jamie let's let's agree on what comes first. What matters most and and I stand with you side-by-side with that and then hopefully those that listen in and watch can think through what we say and agree or disagree accordingly. But where at a time, but thank you man for coming on ensuring abuse. I hope this is been helpful in and you got you sure you're your own thoughts as well. Thanks. Appreciate it all right friends we are out of time, but when in the comments section.

Wherever you are checking this out way in this know your thoughts and hopefully this is been held a gutless