Dr. Brown Speaks with Prof. Craig Keener about Racial Recognition and the Gospel

Join me now for a special interview with Shane Claiborne recorded May 14 stage for the line of fire, your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH paradigm is Dr. Michael Brown to friends, this is Michael Brown and we got a really poor and special broadcast one that is touch on some very, very important issues that right now or dividing the body of Christ to the point that brothers and sisters on either side of the divide. Don't even consider others to be brothers and sisters, so you have a very candid open conversation, one that I pray will glorify the Lord and help bring clarity. I'm here to speak and I'm here to listen, I'm here Sharon I'm here to learn so that we can communicate with open hearts my guest today, Shane Claiborne, I began hearing about years back with the red letter Christians sing hey let's take Jesus seriously as if he meant what he said so for saying that meant going to place like India to work with Mother Teresa in Calcutta and in challenging a lot of our status quo Christianity in America and in those things. My hearts resonated with him been to India myself 27 times over the years, nations have agreed Hartford for people around the world for the hurting, and as things develop. Now, over the years. Shane is been very much in the camp that would not vote for Trump and would have massive problems with Christian supporting trunk I'm in the camp that has voted for Pres. Trump I thought you be really good if we just talk through things together. Try to understand it with with the goal of let's underscore some of these differences, but with the way that we try to explain it to one another.

So without further ado, a Shane Claiborne welcome to long for thanks much for joining us today. I asked my brothers good to be with you assault for those who don't know you if someone settled. Who is Shane Claiborne and who is Jesus to shame.

How would you answer wow. Well, I've been at this for a few years, man out, but I have not fell in love with Jesus down in Tennessee where I grew up.

You know, the heart of the Bible Belt and I went to one of those festivals where I heard a preacher talk about how that God so loved the world that Jesus came in died for our sins and to heal the world not went to the altar you know and dedicated my life to Jesus and and then you know I I I saw a pattern you know at we went to more of those festivals not Going to the altar and dedicate my life to Jesus, but I did know what to do from there and I heard a preacher say so beautifully. If we find ourselves climbing the ladder of upward mobility and status and success. We better be careful or else on her way up. We might pass Jesus on his way down and he talked about you know how the whole story of Jesus is about a God that leaves the comfort of heaven to join the struggle here on earth and has a you know a certain magnetism towards the marginalized hurting is born as a refugee dies on the cross and so I know that reoriented things for me because here I was, you know good Sunday school going straight a student.

I was prompting Dr. Brown that show you what a small town.

I'm not you know I sign and it really you don't hear Jesus say and sell what you have and give it to the poor, and I was trying to figure out how to find a job where I can make bunch of money go snowboard a lot you know and I Jesus say in the last of the first the first of the last and and and so it really began to shake shake my world and that's why when I meet some people and they tell me their testimony there like yeah I my life was such a mess. You know I went to jail. I did all his stuff and then I met Jesus in the and and everything came together and I might God bless you, you know, for me, I pretty much have my life together and I met Jesus and he messed me up a bit short of the trying to read those words in the gospel and say what if Jesus really meant the stuff he said that were to sell what we have and give it to the poor that were to, you know, welcome the stranger, knowing that we welcome Christ as we do it to love our enemies. So that's a it's changed my life man and I came up to Philly 20 years ago went to college at Eastern University right outside of Philadelphia and and then it was in the middle of all that that I met a group of homeless families that really change my life. Date they were homeless moms and children who were on the waiting list for housing and had nowhere to go and so they they moved into an abandoned church building this old abandoned Catholic Cathedral and started living there and we started a student movement to come alongside of them and they had a beautiful sign on the front of the abandoned church.

That said, how can we worship a homeless man on Sunday and ignore one on Monday so it really, really, that that was the spark that helped create the community have been a part of for the last 20 years or so, here on the north side is called the simple way and I were were you inspired by the early church in the book of acts to hear what we have and try to live out our faith in this neighborhood on the north side on Sosa Shane when you live like that. It's easy to look at other Christians who don't Christians were wealthy or Christians who perhaps have the love the Lord, but have different burdens and things not talk about people just living in compromise and sin, but one of the most quoted and often misquoted or misunderstood verses from the sermon on the Mount is where Jesus starts in the seventh chapter in same judge list to be judge shall be judged by the same measure with which you judge others so of course know that the passage my heart there in the whole context of it. But how does it work out in your own life where you're doing your best to follow the mandate of Jesus, but you don't want to be judgmental towards others.

It may have a different perspective or is that not how you interpret the verse that doesn't work out in your life when you have this because I remember being in Parma church late 70s early 80s when the. The boat crisis mode people crisis happened in Vietnam.

The collapse of the country did not these refugees fleeing in for the lies we begin to take them into our homes and we work with the poor and hurting and seem like the less we have, the more we could give in and I remember kind of judging those that weren't doing the same thing at that time. So how do you work that out living what many would say is a radical life to it's just a Jesus life without judging those that may not live the same way you do that's absent such an important question and how I guess part of what what gives me a little bit of grace with the other people is I see what a work in progress. I am myself. You know like I like out. It was old Chesterton that was asked what's the biggest problem in the world and he said I am thought that that idea that were to get the log out of our own eyes. Jesus said, you know, before we looking to try to get the speck out of our neighbors. So when the things that Jesus speaks so passionately and so consistently about his self-righteousness and how toxic it is and I've I really know. He says that you call that you know the yeast of the Pharisees and he says to the religious elite woe to you, you know, at the EEs is that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of head of you are not come for the help you come for the sake don't tell stories about that. The religious guy that stands up and says thank you that I'm not like those people wanting fingers and you know the other guy the tech but tax collector just beats his chest and says God have mercy on me a sinner and that's the posture you know I hope to have is is meet my own chest trying to work on my own contradictions and in and on a lot of these issues and I'm so passionately about, like ending the death penalty and decreasing the number of lives lost to guns on the ideal for a lot of my life I felt very differently and II argued for the death penalty.

No one had the Bible verses to back it up and things like that so that gives me a little bit of grace I was down in Texas not too long ago. This guy came up to me and he said I gotta tell you, man. I'm a I'm a redneck, gun toting pickup truck Ravinia whiskey drinking redneck not been reading your books and they have messed me up and he said I want to ask if you pray with me because I'm a recovering redneck and so I you II think that that humility is what Jesus celebrates everywhere to the core of what it means to to be a follower of Jesus is to realize you know that that this whole gospel is not about how good we are. It's about how good God is in the know were just trying to help each other become a little bit more like Jesus every day so will not my friend up 88 somebody said the church is full of hypocrites and he is a really good answer goes know it's not. We've always got room for more yet yet that's the insights that are excellent. So here's here's what is baffling to me all right. I know you from a distance and just when I heard your voice. As we talked face-to-face of the Savior Skype immediately liked you notice that, so without knowing you just immediately sums like about like this guy.

So I I hear what you say and I believe I I don't question that that you meant everything you said you're totally sincere in us and we got about three minutes before first breaks what we discussed are this, but please explain the Shane Claiborne the just settle this with humility, grace, and an honor towards others, which I believe is who you are. I totally believe that the here's a here's a quote of yours from from twitter trump evangelicalism is a cult. Let us rebuke it in the name of Jesus I mean I read that and heard that one way and it seemed that evangelicals that voted for Trump support trump because of strong pro-life stance or for religious liberties or for other things that don't push back against radical terrorism more than you know that oppression of China and things like that. The default trump was right interval for all the little like a little like a ton of things about him, then this this mild-mannered, gracious Tennessean says trump evangelicalism as a cult, let us rebuke it out in the name of Jesus, so this is the kind of stuff I want to try to understand his brothers so we got two minutes to start them will continue this on the brakes, a please explain that to me being who you are what you meant when you said that you absolutely brother and I don't use that word lightly. I know I actually looked up in the dictionary to the definition the Colts at so I do have one for you and this is the dictionary definition occult a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing, and this is my concern with that the fidelity to trump is that we end up that the great danger in any election season and political engagement is to misplace our admiration and our hope and I because I believe that trump.

I don't think that trump changed America. I think he revealed America and he surfaced some of our deepest and darkest principalities and powers so I know when the Scripture say that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, and the authorities in high places. I think trump is kind of an trump evangelicalism. I said very particularly is a manifestation of a really distorted version of Christianity that doesn't pass the sniff test. It doesn't smell like Jesus. It doesn't resemble the fruits of the spirit and I I believe that trump God's grace is big enough for Donald Trump if it's not big enough for him. It's not big enough for any of us but he himself is said when he is asked about repentance and have you asked for forgiveness.

She says no that's not how only gotta live in a way that doesn't warrant forgiveness while what's at stake in all of this discovery to jump in and we will continue into the nitty-gritty now will be right back. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown, my friends, I am sitting via Skype with letter activist Shane Claiborne said was that mean means well tries to take Jesus at his word says you tell us to live a certain way want to do it because of that he's had some real issues with what he calls trump evangelicalism, even calling it a calm obviously when Christians hear the word cult they would sink being part of a false religion and and so on, and even their salvation big question Shane's point is that there's a misplaced admiration for Trump that obstacle to the Lord instead. But you wanted to further explained that Shane you were saying that you believe Trump has reveal a lot in America which I agree with that. A lot of us come to the surface on all sides, which I agree with so please define more carefully, though trump evangelicalism so people know exactly what you're saying right so I I think that that the danger when we when we put our hope in a person or a political party, as it were, setting ourselves up for disappointment. I love you I love that old hand that says my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness, all other ground is sinking sand. You know, and there is a whole lot of sinking sand these days and so when you know the reason I wrote the book Jesus for Pres. as I saw that happening, you know years ago in another election that vote you know there were literally signs of Barack Obama. That said, hope underneath them and I I think that the peculiar thing about Christianity is that we we have a way of hoping that puts all of our hope and our trust in Jesus, not in the sinking sand. So my hope is not in the donkey of the Democrats or the elephant of the GOP. My hope is in the Lamb of God, the risen Savior and every time the early Christians were saying Jesus is Lord. They were saying. Caesar yes is not. Yes, it was about a whole political imagination and and so when Jerry Falwell Junior says that trump is the dream president of Christians or Franklin Graham says God intervened in the election to help Trump become president.

That's deeply problematic because what's at stake is not just their reputation but the reputation of our faith in what Christianity. Christians care about got it all right so that this is this is very helpful and again you don't hear tone of voice and tweet you don't know who the person is sometimes just just reading a few lines so let let me agree with you think of another side and then and then keep keep probing deeper. If you did with that check out all right okay so I wasn't following a lot of the social media in terms of what you were saying during the time of Pres. Obama's presidency, but there were certainly left-wing evangelicals city Jim Wallace is and people like that who with a been strongly supporting Pres. Obama and there would've been a large percentage of black evangelical supporting Obama just like a large percentage of what evangelical support trump, but he was a troll. Obama was the chosen one, you know, even his famous speech at the Democratic convention. You know it's like a godlike kind of things. I don't know if you were saying the same kind of things, then I would hope you you worse off Alaska that the moment but here's here's I totally agree with you that when evangelical leaders look the other way with Trump's failings don't say hey, this is outrageous and concerning. But here's what we still voted for presently three or four candidates in the flawed nation with flawed parties. We look at our whole system is somewhat corrupt and and it's a flawed nation that the presence ruling over some mechanic pragmatically is just about exited endlessly. Donald Trump is my president, not my Savior. He gets my vote is my soul. I'm looking to Jesus through his church to change the nation, not the president and Congress and the courts and all that but to me, though the pro-life issue. The shedding of innocent blood. It is so hi hi hi Melissa believe high on God's list and and other issues him to do the religious liberty sent and things that could take those liberties way for kids or grandkids loser issues to be so with concern and reluctance to voted for Pres. trump of versatility Clint.

I felt her gender would be even more damaging, but making clear the whole time I trust is in God and in and what he's doing and not in a person's also. I very much agree with you that when we just say certain things about the president without qualifying or without saying hey I don't like this I wish you would call this one a dog.

I wish you wouldn't go get involved with this node time and add to the division and the hatred in our nation. But here's my voted friend that that's a separate thing, but you've actually said just another tweet, and these were as is a work in another book about trump in evangelicals will be pass or fail the test. I I contra some of your quotes with Robert Jeffress and put them side-by-side. Sarah hello how we reconcile the soul you tweeted out I is for every first.

I love Jesus is precisely my love for Jesus that creates my outreach to trump when look at the things Jesus and compare the two things Trump says is impossible to reconcile the two.

I don't know how any Christian can defend trump. So are you saying you don't how any Christian could vote for Trump or to defend his ugly conduct both coming II think that trump what wanted that the kids in my neighborhood will execute.

It was a friend of one of kid of one of my friends said that we gotta remember God loves Donald Trump.

But that doesn't mean God wants him to be president, and I thought that was a good way of saying I think that that what when I look at Donald Trump and I can I bounce that off of the words of Jesus in the sermon on the Mount. You see this very deep contrast that it's very difficult to reconcile a loyalty to trump in the policies and the rhetoric you met and that the the love of Jesus I look at the fruits of the spirit you think that if a tree is known by its fruits.

These these are the things of God is like love, joy, peace, patients, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control and and you say that this is what were described after and so I find Trump's lifestyle and his policies really indefensible. They look more like the seven deadly sins than the fruits of the spirit in you look at the Beatitudes where Jesus blesses the poor and the peacemakers, the meek, the merciful and the policies of this administration are are cursing some of the very people that Jesus blessed and so it's actually my love for Jesus that causes my deep concern for Donald Trump but when when Juliet's just just try to understand. Again, to me, my first issue. This is always the shedding of innocent blood. As I look at Scripture. The history of Scripture why God brought severe judgment on Israel and Judah was a topless shedding of innocent blood, sacrificing children to idols and the closest we come to that is abortion with all the horrors of it in the selling of baby parts in the Donald understand how any Christian could say watch a movie like unplanned knots after the rest of my life to to to fight for the life of the unborn and it in less you also would say no Christian could vote for Hillary Clinton in the Christian could vote for Barack Obama because they sanction the shedding of innocent blood in Obama's godless Planned Parenthood and Hillary Clinton's lifelong host pro-abortion stance and all that just to get that one issue then that would be consistent. To me, that would be consistent to say okay no Christian could vote for Trump. No Christian vote for Hillary.

We just can have to your best to change America positively, but to me again I don't I don't want to say this in a harsh way or condemning with Shane this brother talking to brother it feels hypocritical to me for you to say I will see how any Christian could vote for Trump and yet not see the exact same thing about Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for these other reasons yet.

Thanks.

Thanks, Dr. Brown, so this is where I went I would start on on that is that you and I can agree.

I think that when when were voting were were not voting for a Savior right now.

Yes and and I think most Christians would say that they're not voting for Savior, but it it it has everything to do with how we posture ourselves around the it where we put our hope and and and and this is this is where I would say the way I think about voting is that were actually not voting for Savior were doing damage control were trying to harness the principalities and powers that are hurting our brothers and sisters and and and that that that might sound cynical to some folks but it's why I don't endorse candidates, so are you saying you know it when you say are you consistent.

I don't endorse candidates because I feel like my loyalty to Jesus means I I'm aligning with the values of Jesus in the sermon on the mount, and I'm not work with anybody towards those ends. So when Jesus says when you welcome the stranger you welcome me that has some big implications on how we think about welcoming immigrants and asylum-seekers so that's an an issue that that matters.

Abortion does matter to me, and I have written and spoken about abortion. Part of what I admire about Mother Teresa is her consistent ethic of life was passionately against abortion but she was also passionately against the death penalty and war and she was this beautiful voice that consistently stood for life and when I look at the early church. They had this consistent ethic of life. So II like to say that I'm pro-life from the womb to the tune you and I think that abortion does matter, but the irony that I saw in my own life.

Growing up I talked about being pro-life but I only thought about it in terms of abortion and again I I'm I want passionately to reduce and eradicate abortion, but I think that there are other issues of life to suddenly pro-life to me means caring about abortion, but it also means caring about gun violence and alternatives to the death penalty, and welcoming immigrants and caring about the environment and an ink joining the movement to advocate for black lives, especially as we think of our brother Ahmad arbor E Ink Briand Taylor in Kentucky you know, just so that that ethic comes from this conviction that every person is made in the image of God is an invaluable child of God, and anything that squashes someone's dignity or hope, and at worst it cuts their life short. But God takes it personally got out so so you know it's really hard to find that ethic of life. I was very critical of Hillary Clinton but not just on abortion but she was for the death penalty so there was no person in the last election that had a consistent ethic of life. No, neither party holds that very well so I think the best that we can do is try to advocate for life love for those who are most vulnerable so you read Matthew 25 Matthew 25 3146 that's what will go out I will talk about the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now going 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown when I think is a Christian is that Jesus is inviting us to love beyond our biological family beyond nationality and sorta as big as God loves in the you know the Bible does it say God so loved America's is God's love.

The world's a word of our love is to be borderless in the big and so you know, America first is not just a political statement, but I think it's a theological heresy to say America first kiss Jesus is that the last shall be first, that were to seek first the kingdom of God.

And that's a very different kind of way of thinking of the world.

Those are the words of Shane Claiborne is with me today via Skype. As were talking as brothers in the Lord, but with some different emphases perspectives on political issues and things like that and shin want to go to Matthew 25 want to talk about which he speaks of their in verses 31 to 46 which kind of that was late 70s early 80s the church was part of like that was our tax that was that was it really went preached and taught and stirred things out that we sought to to live out the course of these are words of peace that remain relevant to the end of the age.

But if if I if I press a little Shane here is here's my perception but again I haven't followed you carefully enough, just with admiration and agreement of so much of the boat rocking you were doing to challenge the status quo Christianity in America. Over the years and and maybe have heard you politically. Now during the Trump years and I wasn't listening before then so correct me if I put my perception is wrong but it feels to me as if you have been much more outspoken about Christian support of Trump than you were Christian support of Obama Christian support of Hillary Christian support of the Democratic Party which point after point after point out. I grieve over I feel is antilife anti-liberty, destructive, and of course aspects of the Republican Party out.

I don't agree with as well and it it's the obviously we talk right before we started, we prayed as brothers and yet you're still saying you don't know how any Christian could vote for Trump or are you so just to be clear on this and you like a long answer because I wanted to get on these other issues, but are you questioning the salvation of some of them since I don't like a lot about Donald Trump but I prefer this this this this one voting for Mrs. devote imperfect system, imperfect country. This not the kingdom of God, a theocracy summer working with full human beings just like the police chief may be flawed or the heart surgeon. Maybe slaughter the grocer, maybe our presence can be flawed. You question people salvation that say I think Trump is the best man for the job despite his shortcomings. I am looking to Jesus and that's our our sounding board. That's our example that's our model for everything and I am suggesting that every Christian, myself included, let's read the sermon on the Mount. Let's read Matthew 25 where Jesus talks about the least of these, and let's allow that to inform how we vote not just in November but let's allow that inform how we live every day and the more I read the red letters.

The words of Jesus's sermon on the mount, the more that I find them irreconcilable with the priorities of Trump the priorities of Jesus are the least and the most vulnerable and in site you know it what what what the true indicator of the health of our nation is not how the Dow is doing. It's how the poor and the most vulnerable are doing and even when I hear rhetoric and language that I would even allow my kids to Tweed I think was Maxine Kato. That said, when they're hurt when his daughters dated someone they did not agree on everything but the that the guy had at least passed the decency test is trust.

I sign this and that but but right so that's my concern is that this is not about disagreeing on policies. This is about some deep-seated principalities and powers that I think Trump is just the manifestation of some of that in it and I'm I'm so deeply concerned about it because what is at stake is not just the reputation of evangelicals, but really all of us who call ourselves followers of Jesus we we care about things other than just you know how the stocks are doing right right so I got it. Look, there is there can be an appeal to criminality. There can be appeal to an unhealthy nationalism as well, but again when when you use words like cult use words like heresy. I guess a larger philosophical question would be if if we are asking America as a nation to live the way the church is called to live if we are if we are expecting our national leader. For example, Romans 13 talks with role of government and oversee the death penalty and thing you debated over this. Romans 13 of government and and I imagine you think there should be some legitimate use of force to stop a criminal war or so. So on a murder spree.

If the cops catch that person put them in prison. But that's positive some use of force, whereas the sermon on the Mount is his counseling is certainly of life that is not nests necessarily how a nation. The secular nation with some Christian roots, but it was a secular nation with a history of racism. Other problems in false is supposed to live. So let's a golfer bid. Yet a child and that child had had the terrible heart condition and and you had a final heart surgeon and the number one heart surgeon and you're the only one can perform this the surgery, with the hope of of helping your child. This is the arrogant nasty person thinks the world revolves around himself if he is the guy. He is the world's number one heart surgeon and the only guy in your region. I can perform this is a Christian on the street really loves the Lord and could try it. I mean, they never really operated our heart they could try it. I imagine that a misuse can trust God for miracle you you go to the the nasty heart surgeon. So what what I'm wondering about is yes, integrity matters, character matters, I believe a lot of Donald Trump's negatives have filtered down to the nation and made us more vulgar. Even more divided. But when you keep talking about that that the least of these is the first I'm thinking of is babies in the womb is in the whatever whatever happens, I got I got a fight for them first and and yet you can't see how a Christian can have that as a priority. Let's start with the least of these, and then try to have a holistic ethic of life and fairness and equity everybody all lies matter.

But let let's I was one of the first write an article by Dr. Othman are very immediately gone on that and talked about systemic unfairness in our nation. You know some on there with you to address issues but it just it it it feels and you could talk about. I think Rev. recalled Obama Rev. Obama a few years ago for singing amazing Grace at her funeral just it feels unequally with feels like to me and and please respond candidly. It feels like you have dispassionate Christian values which I admire, respect, special that you sought to live them out. That's the big thing and that's that's that's smashes most of us in the face. Could you say, let's try to live this out.

Let's try to do it and get other parts.

It almost sounds like the left wing talking points against the right that you're now baptizing into Christianity and wasn't that doesn't fit there as part of the cultic guilty of heresy that that's how it feels. That's what feels unequally concerns me. It's not like you're an equal opportunity offender on the left and the right.

It seems to just go one direction. Correct me if my perception is wrong, please. Thanks Dr. Brown I think some of these things are not about left and right there about right and wrong that they're not just about these political polarities, but there there there really about how we stay faithful to the things that Jesus calls us to an and you know II look at the Scripture. And it's filled with 2/2000 verses about how we care for the poor and the most vulnerable and so when we take our eyes on Jesus. I think we end up focusing on things. Jesus didn't talk a whole lot about and we don't focus on the things that Jesus had a whole lot to say about. So that's why you know we really keep guiding ourselves back to the red letters of Jesus and and unit with that, the, the analogy you gave with the heart surgeon is a lot unpacking that but it's one thing to say this person is in a good heart surgeon. It's another to say that this is a godly man. This is God's man that you know God instituted God intervened in the election put this person there. So what what I think one of the biggest dangers in America is this fusion of God an American nationalism so illicitly went went when Armani says in God we trust in our economy looks like the seven deadly sins like this is problematic and you were living in a pandemic, and the way that you you when you get a vaccine. It's like a watered-down version of the disease and it knocks it out of your system and and that night I think that part of the danger in America's having a watered-down version of Christianity. So I see a lot of people that are rejecting this kind of trump evangelicalism, but they haven't given up on Jesus. They just given up on a distorted narrative of American nationalism that's camouflaging itself is Christianity, he doesn't pass the sniff test doesn't look like the sermon on the mount I'm losing my concern. You know that's my primary concern is not just that it worked where baptizing this president and that II just think that that's that's deeply problematic and there's I think the other thing to say in all this is that there's some deep racism that is manifest in this administration and the language of trump that has revealed a fault line in America of this past in this history that we haven't properly dealt with, and Boyd because we we think about that that the divide of race around the election and know even as 81% of white evangelicals supported trump and many continue to defend him. Over 70% of black and brown people of color that are Christians voted against him. So I need to just turn that around right but can you turn them around. Though and by the way of for decades talked about the mistake of most of of associating patriotism with the kingdom of God and are just writing last night about Christians must put the cross before the flag and there's there's no competition among Admiralty and on the day when every knee bows down to Jesus willingly and unwillingly throughout the whole universe compass can be one of billions and billions and billions bowing the knee is all universe does assisted willingly or unwittingly, so I am Apsley with you step for step on many of the points and then I I kind of is what feels like the the double standard of hypocrisy because I was so grieved over what I thought was there.

The race baiting policies and statements of Pres. Obama and every smooth way that they played into things that I I've had black callers African American callers, show and say we we know ethically. We cannot flow for Barack Obama because of XYZ sense booth.

We have to because were black and and just, you know how to how we process this so II think I feel it goes both ways. I am Apsley with you concern about the rhetoric concerned about him the looking the other way with with Trump's shortcomings.

I believe he was uniquely sovereignly raised up for a number of reasons, Vanessa Cyrus, someone who didn't know God. If you read the Cyrus inscription, Cyrus is boasting he's the king of all kings and Marduk appointed him and Gus is not actually I did but I think a lot's been revealed. I agree with you a lot at jackets and revealed in the of the white evangelical church but what I've heard, make America great again all the people, and I knew that agreed with that. It wasn't a race issue wasn't make America white and when you think outside of the white contact so you don't make America great era of American his eyes adjust to her how I currently live as we know all that for a lot of will make America great again makes means make America white again right stuff right there right there that's really as we pick up the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Your again is Dr. Michael Brown.

There's only six or seven verses in the Bible that talk about sex attraction relationship sexual relationship and their very differently from how were talking about monogamous equity. No equal relationships of lifelong partners.

That was a foreign idea to the those contacts which were much more about abuse and exploitation of men and women in those situations, you know, and so that that makes it that makes it really a difficult and so at the end of the day. IIII know it that Christians who love Jesus you love the Bible can arrive in different places. I believe a tree is known by its fruit. I have friends that are in lifelong monogamous partnerships of the same gender in the fruit of their life looks like. Jesus looks like everything that I know is beautiful and I celebrate that with them.

So that's the voice of Shane Claiborne is graciously been with me now for this to be an entire hour and the goal is his brothers to to try to explain to one another. Why we see things so passionately night I categorically differ with that an entire previous quote in that. I'm sure the whole Bible is saying. Marriage is the union of man and woman and every so often used to tell us what it's not. And that look, I know Mormon families and semi great people in traditional Jewish from semi great people and atheists are great people but I don't change the Bible based on that none of the honey Christian could celebrate that.

So those I have my very strong differences or restrain us. So this rebuke will racism in the name of the brown skin Palestinian Jew named Jesus: Palestinian to me. Is this inflammatory thing that attacks Israel that comes up with a narrative with Palestine being a name that was put on 100 years after the the time of Jesus took to mock and denigrate the Jewish people and keep them out of Jerusalem right in saying that you know an Israeli or Middle Eastern Jew brown skin so certain things wind appearing as some of us just kind of embraced un-biblical talking points that are also the talking points the left that at the same time I sent trump restraints saying as a follower of Jesus.

He holds these perspectives and that's why he has concern about evangelical support trumps the word, flush out our differences here, his brother, so Shane I said a lot, but I want to turn the reader. Respondent brief to what I said or just get back to what you think is important regarding immigration and those things its overuse or that this conversations been important.

I think it's really really important talk with people that we don't agree with and and in particular one of the things it breaks my heart when it comes to same-sex marriage. In that conversation around LGBT Q folks is is how divided the church is been an and in one way, I just believe that we should be able to disagree well on it because it's something that I think you can have a strong argument one way or the other. The Methodist Church just divided the global church is split so in our communities. We are able to disagree on that issue and and and I don't think that the government should be telling us what marriages I believe it's a sacrament. It's it's it's holy and and so the government shouldn't be, you know, offering marriages anymore than there baptizing folks you know but I as I look at a lot of these issues that were talking about. What's clear to me that is in it and in America. This is not just a political crisis but this is a spiritual crisis that as you look at Jesus in Matthew 25 saying when you take care the hungry, when you feed the hungry. You feed me when you when you welcome the stranger you welcome me when you care for the sick, you provide healthcare for those who are RR sick you take care of me and in the end the real test of our faith is how it demonstrates itself to those who are most vulnerable. I want to be really careful to say I'm not saying our works earn our salvation or work our works demonstrate our salvation and the way that Christianity is manifesting itself in this country.

Why evangelicalism in particular, the fact that the same people that led me to Jesus had let us to Donald Trump it I find that that really painful and I see a lot of people that are rejecting trump evangelicalism but they're not giving up on Jesus. I believe that there giving up on a certain version of Christianity is that that is taking its eyes off of Jesus and in some ways is fallen more in love with trump them with Jesus and so I want to invite all of us. You know to come back to Jesus again and say what would it look like if if this was my defining rubric is I think about voting and policies. I think loving my neighbor as myself does mean caring about the policies that affect their lives. So I've got neighbors from all over the world here and in my neighborhood and I know the things that they left the even the house I'm living in the family used to letters from El Salvador live through the revolution there and and and so there's folks that are just coming out is so much pain in the language that we've heard Donald Trump perpetuate around immigrants and refugees is heartbreaking. The fact that that the number of people that we are welcoming into this country is hitting generational lows like that is that troubles me.

I think we know we to be born again means that word allows beyond biology were to love beyond nationalism and that would allow the as big as God loves us and and and other trees had a great line brother got Brown she said sometimes our biggest problem is that the circle we put around our family is too small and I think that's my one of the things I find so problematic about nationalism is a love for our own people is not a bad thing, but no for Christians were born again. I love that and stop at the border. It is someone suffering on the other side of that wall.

It is tragic as if it were out my own mother or my own sister or daughter. So to assume that many of the question on that. And one of my goals even in this this book and just finishing out about trump and evangelicalism will will we pass the test. It is to say, okay, can we, in the midst of political differences. Deep differences unite around Jesus B candidate that the homosexuality issue to me. Scripture is a very major one. And if we were fellow shipping together that that would be more of a challenge to me than are in our clinical differences or an we may have when Jesus talks about divorce and were talking about a president exits thrice married and paid off a porn star you know and I know I know is that right, all saying is wrong about was no one's will. Maybe some is just fine but were all agreeing that that that that's wrong but anyway I don't want to focus on on that because it has been your your major issue to me. The issue is where LGBT activism goes and coming out of the closet putting others in the closet as opposed to loving caring for every individual which Jesus wants us to do, but here here's my question. May we could we could end with this.

These less four-minute Shane but I so appreciate having a conversation. Hopefully we can model hate what we got some a lot more in common than we have the devises, but it sounds as if we are both road divides us and unites us, but calling for my radio show. I don't know if you know I got one to whole have will have another one manager that would be a joy absolutely soaked first Timothy five, Paul says that if you have a widow and you can care for that person. If you don't care for your own first in your worse than an unbeliever. So America first can be an unhealthy nationalism and unhealthy white nationals we could be all kinds of unhealthy things work and certainly hate to be healthy and strong first if we can help anybody else and and just like I care for your family first.

You know your family starve, and then help someone else, just not the selfish way but hate doing somebody else to help your own without you help can there be any way we are Americans to say we want to be a healthy strong country and if we are, then we can help the rest of the world can there be anything healthy about America first so we just first respondent when you're talking about the LGBT Q conversation I unite I I love online that's attributed to Billy Graham.

You may have heard this one the Billy Graham said it's God's job to judge. It's the spirits job to convict and it's our job to love the great line and and I I remember the Barna research group a few years ago they went to every state in the US and they asked young non-Christians what you think of when you hear the word Christian and what they found was heartbreaking. The number one answer of what young non-Christians that when they heard the word Christian is that were anti-gay number two was at work. Judge mental number three that it wasn't. We were hypocritical so the list is not good right and Jesus said they will know that you are Christians by your love. So I think when we become known more for who we've excluded and who we've embraced more for you know what were against and who were for that.

That's a problem and saw that my dream is a different generation from now when people hear the word Christian, they will say love.

They will say justice. They will say PC other building things that Jesus preached and led and I think we know as we think about immigration out.

I'll just stop with this is that there what at at at war. I think in our country.

It is this battle between love and fear and I'm convinced that fear and love are our enemies are like opposing magnets and Scripture says that perfect love casts without fear and and so I think right now we've got to decide what it means to be a country of love.

What it means to have policies that are driven more by love than by fear and that's that. That's my real hope that we will go no to the that the voting booth and and vote for love to remember those who are most vulnerable, and to vote for them and entered to let that be the driving force, not just on election day, but on every day, hate, and you actually ended with a radio announcer style to it to give me a few seconds at the end so obviously when I put the most probable first that's the unborn. That's why I voted the way have in recent years, but Shane so much of what you said. I agree with and in fact soon as I finish this manuscript. I know I get endless request to endorse things look at things in it and I normally can't. But on the Senate you take a look at because I wouldn't be surprised if in the midst of certain different conclusions we come to that is that if a lot of fundamental discriminate see you heard it friends the whole world watch. You heard that Shane is going to have me on his radio show begins to continue the conversation and I look I'll have my team give you my private contact info if you like to be in contact off the air, but thanks for joining me.

I think it's time to let site Christians.org and I'm on socially under my name Shane Claiborne. I think