Enemies Within the Church Part 3: The Theological Ruse

Enemies within the church. Part three theological rooms that is a topic we discussed today. Right here on the Christian worldview radio program is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David, the host Christian worldview is a nonprofit listener supported radio ministry.

Thank you to our Christian worldview partners into our national sponsor Samaritan ministries provide a biblical solution to healthcare our toll-free number is 1888 646-2233 and her website is the Christian worldview.org in the previous two programs we have been examining the pervasive and pernicious nature of the social justice movement into evangelicalism once trusted pastors, churches, denominations, parachurch organizations, colleges and seminaries have been taken captive by what Paul described in Galatians as quote a different gospel which is really not another only. There are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ, unquote. So how does the social justice movement distort the gospel in sound doctrine. That really is the key question for God's word is the standard by which we must judge all things is social justice, or in other words, rectifying alleged societal and ecclesiastical injustices against Blacks, women and homosexuals really a quote gospel issue, especially when the means of achieving so-called equity requires one group to be favored over another. John Harris, author of Christianity and social justice and also social justice goes to church, and the host of conversations that matter podcast joins us today to examine the heirs of social justice advocates. John is featured in enemies within the church, which is a two hour documentary film and how social justice ideology has infiltrated evangelicalism for limited time we are offering the DVD of enemies within the church for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview. Let's get straight to the interview with John Harris, John, thank you for coming on the Christian worldview today. Let's just start out by telling us about your background, how you came to saving faith in Christ and what led you to writing two books on the social justice movement yet. Thank you for having me David so much as a privilege to be here and talk about what I feel to be very important topic and a threat to the church I came to Christ at a young age.

I grew up in a Christian home and put my trust in Jesus Christ and I didn't have a lot of sins that would would make the news headlines, but I certainly disobeyed my parents and later on in life.

I started getting into ministry more.

That was something I had a little bit of an aversion to because my dad was a pastor and I saw what that was like, but I realized people are going to hell and they need the gospel and so I'm in college I went down that path and went to seminary and got some Bible training at Southeastern Baptist theological seminary in North Carolina and really did enjoy the first few years and then something happened after Donald Trump was elected. It was almost like someone flipped the switch and I was hearing all kinds of terms I had never heard in seminary before and that there is a DB. One example of a perhaps a political difference.

During the eight years of Pres. Obama. There is really not a lot of pushback for as far as statements being signed or statements really initiated within the seminary, but in one semester. All 2017 there were three statements against Donald Trump or the all right originating the seminary were heavily supported by faculty and administration and I came to realize after a few really two semesters that it wasn't just a political difference I was seeing, but there was a theological difference going on and I started hearing people talk about the gospel being something more centered on human action in the world that we needed to do some, work to bring about the gospel in society. It wasn't just salvation by faith in Christ Jesus in his atoning work, but it was our work and what we could do to reform or revolutionize the world and this really concern me and so I decided to start studying this more. I would try to take the proper channels at seminary and talk to people about it, but what I found was there is a huge hesitation and a fear of opposing this even though many shared my my my concern. So I went to a liberal University after that and got a Masters in history and I use my time there to do a thesis on social justice and is specifically how it made inroads in evangelicalism during the 1960s and 70s because there are many popular figures at that time which start we started to go down this path very similar to what's happening today and what I found was it.

This is false teaching. This is a compromise and I started talking about it on line on YouTube and at that formed into a podcast and a lot of people needed resources on the side to start making resources and I've really seen a lot of fruit from people who have benefited from the books are the podcasts you are trying to understand this and are seeing this happen at their church and they want to provide a biblical response and so that's got to where I am today. I am involved in ministry still college ministry music ministry at my church, but this is not a temporary calling. I think God is giving me to help people understand this issue. John Harris is our guest. The author of two books on social justice both linked@ourwebsitethechristianworldview.org. One of them is called social justice goes to church. Also, the podcast host of conversations that matter.

His website is worldview conversations.com. It's also link to our website as well. What is the best term for what is taking place in evangelicalism right now is it critical theory is that the social justice movement is it woke-ism is a cultural Marxism. How do you best describe or label it so I've approach is somewhat like a historian would and I like to look at things sequentially. I think social justice is the best term to use. I like to start with the French Revolution and the ideas propagated by Jean Jacques Rousseau, who is really the philosopher that many point to is responsible for the ideas that became popular during that time. And he believed that we needed to achieve an egalitarian ideal meeting everything needed to be equal. Equal outcomes for every kind of social group and the thing that was preventing this were these institutions like the family and the church and labor relationships and in order to dismantle those institutions are needed to be an all-powerful force you could think of it, perhaps, is the government that would come in and make everything equal. So it's a utopian scheme. It's the idea that mankind through collective effort will be able to somehow create an equal society and we hear the term equity inclusion diversity today. It's the same thing every iteration of social justice has really followed the same course and if you break it all down and peel the layers back that's what you're gonna find this redistributive justice where we needed take from one group to another group so that you quality will manifest itself and it's just not true. It can't happen when it's tried you get killing fields you get negative consequences hierarchy exists, and Christians have always believed that we don't believe that we live in a perfect world we live in a sinful world, but we cannot change the nature of man or change the way that God created the world with our own human efforts. In fact, true peace and harmony and utopias can come after we die. When I Jesus Christ reigns supreme and and that's what were looking forward to is that the life that the consummation of all things, not something we can build in the here and now and so the term itself was made popular social justice by a number of American Christians during the late 1800s really turn-of-the-century Walter Rauch and Bush is the most recognizable name I they use this term because it was more palatable if they said let's advocate for socialism than American Christians associated that with immorality and with atheism and so social justice with a nicer term. It was a term Christians would accept and be open to hearing about went they wouldn't have been open to hearing about socialism. So that's where the term became popular.

It's been around in been popular for over 100 years and it really does describe all kinds of different movements from the meat you movement to the black lives matter movement to the early Frankfurt school and cultural Marxism and so many other things are critical race theory today but at the base level will will see that utopian scheme and and that's really what you want to look for. How would you quantify John just how big this movement is there. There's always attacks on the gospel in sound theology throughout all of church history.

Remember 20 years ago.

There is the emergent church movement. So for that Cayman is gone they be morphed into something else now how big of a threat. Do you think this social justice movement really is because we do want to overplay it but it seems like it's a tidal wave to me that has infected nearly everything and in evangelicalism right now I'm completely in agreement with you. I think what John MacArthur said about this being the greatest threat to the gospel you'd seen in his lifetime is spot on. It's difficult for some people to see it that way because there's kind of a spectrum or a slide if you will.

Some people will accept certain tenants of this. Perhaps in ignorance or they have well-meaning motivations and I'll just go so far, but not all the way and then other people by the whole kit and caboodle hook line and sinker. And so there's certain degrees of compromise. But if we look at it the way that I argue we should look at it in my latest book presciently and social justice. I think it's a religion. If someone is converting to another religion.

They learn about it more as they get further and further into it and the compromise becomes more and more evident. And I think we've seen that in the evangelical world. Those who started going down this path five or six years ago. We can look at them now and they're hardly recognizable that some of them have left Christianity altogether. Others are compromising on really fundamental things and so there's there's a slippery slope here and the threat.

II cannot under sell you on the threat it is. It is toxic. I have seen it and on a personal level take over people that I really thought at one time were propagating the gospel in solid and now all I have to say, as Paul did their enemies of the cross of Christ John Harris again with us today on the Christian worldview in your first book social justice goes to church it says in the 1970s, many campus radicals raised in Christian homes brought neo-Marxist new Marxist ideas from college back to church with them at first. Figures like Jim Wallace sojourners Ron cider same ilk.

And Richard Mao made great gains for their progressive evangelical cause, but after the defeat of Jimmy Carter in 1980 the religious right stole the headlines. One more paragraph today a new crop of mainstream evangelicals has taken up the cause of the new left, whether they know it or not is pro-life evangelicals rush to support movements like black lives matter and me too. It is important to realize they are walking in footprints already laid down their mission may be more successful, but it is not new unquote what you're saying here is that this is the same progressive movement that destroyed the mainline Protestant denominations, minus a destroyed that made them go into a whole move away from sound theology preaching of the gospel to to social a social mission transform society. The last week we had the program Michael Fallon at a fellow guest of yours in the film. We have been featuring enemies within the church and he described this social justice movement is a is a worldwide paradigm shift that everything must change. Everything must be advanced towards globalism and all the different sectors whether it's education media also religion as well as like a foregone conclusion. This is way it's going. Everyone needs to get on board. There are some people within the evangelical movement who realize this and are the core, the pushers behind this social justice movement. What are your thoughts on it as to looking back on people like Jim Wallace Ron cider Richard Mao me these were considered hardly even evangelical just theologically liberal Christians are they really influencing the generation today, in part, yeah, that means you have to streams you have the secular world, and the Academy and some people just go to the Academy get radicalized me remember this movement comes from the Academy from seminaries into institutions it in. Start with the church is like a revival would and then of course that I argue in that book you have people who call themselves evangelical, who were already trying to go down this path.

They were affected by the new left movements and campus radical movements and they had their disciples and I I think what's what happened during the 1980s, especially, was the religious right captured all these headlines and it was a populist movement and so the media with all the cameras were focused on them. But meanwhile, in the Academy that the next generation of theologians they were reading. People like Matt now and so I think there's there's an influence there and II think I argue effectively in the last chapter of the book that guys like Russell Moore and David Platt and Tim Keller and in others have been influenced by that crop of evangelicals. They read Ron cider and not influence their own ideas of poverty and Americanism.

And indeed, in some ways. Perhaps the gospel Tim Keller was very influenced by Richard Mao. So I think that there is a connection there is not the only connection you can you can get these ideas just come in and when you turn on your television today. You don't really need to look too far, but they certainly showed a way to try to integrate socialist ideas new left ideas with Christianity and that pattern is is being repeated over and over and over. Richard Mao for listeners who don't know, I believe John correctly from wrong was wasn't he with the president of Fuller seminary or something like that you Richard Mao was we were the president of Fuller seminary.

He was actually someone will recognize him from the pro-life evangelicals provided you he was part of that group. He wrote a book in 1971 called political evangelism and see if this sounds familiar, because this is 1971, but it sounds like what were hearing today. He said that the atonement of Christ did not simply extend to individual souls and salvation, justification by faith and extended beyond that to political institutions and structures and so when we work in an activist way to try to reform or revolutionize or deconstruct and rebuild these institutions like the prison system. For example, where participating in evangelism that's redemption. That's the gospel being carried out in and I see this all over evangelicalism today.

I see it in the Gospel coalition in Christianity today. I see a lot of popular preachers saying things very similar to this that you don't really have the whole gospel in Lester doing some activist kind of thing that that's the premise of the book woke church which is is very popular. This really goes back to something that wasn't quite as popular in the 70s that now is gaining ground. All they had to do was wait a couple of helpful sharpen the worldview of Christians proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ by becoming a Christian worldview partner: one AAA 646-2230 3.4 right to Box 401, Excelsior, MN 5533 what happened to her. How do you write down American Christianity message that they're going out and taking the world is not you need to repent of your sin receive Christ the messages you actually have. They are under the weight of races or sex is homophobia, the proceeding is from enemies within the church, a two hour documentary film that exposes how social justice ideology is infecting the church you can order the DVD for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview go to the Christian worldview.org or call one AAA eight 646-2233 right to Box 401, Excelsior, MN 55331. That's one AAA 646-2233 or the Christian worldview.org I am going there myself. I really only nursing and was never crossing my mind and dilated face any sort of language and help initiate Symantec in a mammogram and the doctor walked in and immediately started tearing. She said Kelsey had known him for years and this is really hard for me to tell you pain is breast cancer because I'm a Samaritan member. I knew that I had complete freedom in regards to which providers I saw kind of treatment I went into the gang and they are so generous when cancer needs.

Although I had to make how I was going to pay for and where I was going to be one of the things I was concerned about such a beautiful and negative Samaritan Christians caring for each other with a biblical solution to healthcare. Learn more and Samaritan ministries.org/TC W. Welcome back to the Christian worldview and David. We visit our website Christian worldview.org you can subscribe to our free weekly email resources for adults and children and support the ministry now back to today's program. John Harris with us today here in the Christian worldview the author of two books, and social justice. Also featured in the film that we are offering right now the document are the two hour documentary enemies within the church. This comes from a endorsement that was written on one of your books.

John by Douglas Kruger who is the author of political correctness does more harm than good. He said the great injunction to the church was to preach the gospel to the world while not being of the world social justice neatly reverses this trend preaching the ways of the world into the church. The gospel is about freedom from guilt and sin and bondage. Social justice seeks above all to apportion guilt and sin and bondage enslaving entire demographics and requiring that they kneel before man in attrition. Here's an example of what that sounds like from the documentary enemies within the church there no question that there were things are absolutely true, but we can't just look to absolute truth. Vacuum can't possibly understand truth if we don't understand the lady of the land.

If we don't understand the power differential. Okay, what is he saying their job. We can understand the lay of the land, lessening us in the power differential. What is that mean there's a fancy word standpoint epistemology, but I'll explain it is not really as fancy as it sounds, it's this idea that certain groups of people certain social locations have greater access into truth than other social occasions to think about it this way.

There's competing versions of reality out there. You can conceive of the world in a certain way, but someone else could conceive of it in a different way, and there can conceive of it perhaps based on their experience and their experience of oppression is going to be part of that what's being said there and you'll hear this all over the places that if you are part of a court include oppressed group.

According to sociologists, then you should not have as much of a say about what constitutes justice or what we should do about a certain problem as say someone who's experienced oppression because their version of reality is going to be superior to your version of reality because they actually have the experience of being oppressed. This is a way of trying to neutralize anyone who would really bring in a biblical approach and objective approach to a situation and say let's get out our Bibles.

Let's figure out what God says about this. We can all do it know if you can do that is all you need to go through some kind of an oppressed lens to really understand it to really get the insight that you need. And in that way, it actually mirrors Gnosticism. In some ways there's a barrier that's put in people's way before they can really understand the Bible. And of course there's always to be someone more press than you are. So how do you ever really know if you have the correct interpretation or understanding of the situation. You'll see little comments like the one you displayed all over the place. But there's like an iceberg. There's a whole different view of truth that they have a subjective view that underlies that. Let's get to the next part of that soundbite where this is from. Again, the film enemies within the church and this is from Jarvis Williams, a very well-known popular professor at Southern Baptist theological seminary.

This is the flagship seminary for the Southern Baptist convention where Al Mohler is the president listen to what Jarvis Williams says in this soundbite is possible in a Christian context to talk about reconciliation. Likewise, talk about justice and we are working together living together in love. Power love. That means we care about things like economic inequality in the doesn't mean you are justified by economic quality you quality that does mean that the gospel transforms us holistically. John explain what he saying there and who Jarvis Williams is yeah Jarvis Williams is a professor leave New Testament studies at the Southern Baptist theological seminary's written number of books and she is probably one of the most articulate social justice proponents as far as trying to merge critical race theory with Christianity, and is pretty explicit about it. I have a number of quotes and in my book from him. What he says how much he is gleaned from critical race theory how it helped him understand the New Testament better. But what you're finding the clip you displayed is a different ethical outlook. To some extent, and at the end, perhaps attaching to the gospel in some way, and the ethical outlook is that we can't have true peace or reconciliation.

We can't be one in Christ, a part of the same family in the last there's some kind of a redistribution that takes place now that could be monetary it could be reparations, but it doesn't have to be. It could simply be diversifying her theological library platforming different kinds of people at your conference is making sure your elder board, not just looking at the biblical qualifications for an elder which you need to be looking at you, the ethnic makeup perhaps of the board and and so these kinds of interest imported into the church.

They are in addition to biblical ethics when you merge this with the gospel. You just get a false gospel similar to the Galatian heresy.

Last thing I'll say about it, though, is this that biblical justice we really want to have a conversation about that. They always claim one of the conversation is retributive and it means that you go to Exodus 23 you shouldn't favorite people because of their connection to you as far as them being family members or friends. You shouldn't favor the poor man just because he can pull your heartstrings and give you a story that makes you want to subvert justice in his favor.

You shouldn't oppress widows and orphans because they're vulnerable and easy to oppress the whole principle is that justice is something that applies to everyone equally is called equality before the law. When Jarvis Williams is promoting is not equality before the law lady justice takes off the blindfold in his world and then looks at external qualities and then makes different determinations depending on what social group you're part of to try to create an equal outcome. So it's redistributed instead of retribution and that is a fundamental difference between biblical Christianity and social justice. The word is partiality. That's the word, the Bible uses initial payment reality toward one over the other. John Harris with us today here on the Christian worldview talking about enemies within the church. The DVD that he was interviewed in the documentary film and were talking with the theological roots of the social justice movement today. Nellis get in specifically to that you talk about John for aspects of the theological fallacy of so the social justice movement. The epistemology, the metaphysical the ethical and the gospel. Maybe you could pick one or two of those and just explain him for someone. Blessings, as you're just saying that the social decibel was bad tell is biblically why from her theological standpoint, why this goes awry. We've Artie talked about two of them. We talked about epistemology and this idea that certain social locations have a greater access into truth and this is just a biblical because in the Bible we find over and over throughout Proverbs in the New Testament. It's the man of God. It's the righteous man. It's the diligent workmen. These are the people that understand true justice and what the word of God teaches. It's not some social location that you gotta go to to find out what the truth is we should all be striving and coming together to try to objectively see what does the word of God say about a certain situation.

Let me give you an example that help some people understand this a little better. If you are you and I have brain surgery would you want someone who knew what they were talking about who had gone to medical school knew the brain surgery textbooks had done in a number of times or do you want someone who underwent a brain surgery had the experience of a brain surgery doing that brain surgery will is an obvious answer. So it's those who have true wisdom who have applied biblical principles.

Over time, who have studied the Bible tried to know the mind of God. These are the people that we need to be seeking out in regards to justice, not someone simply because they have a minority or oppressed perspective in the minds of sociologists is the sociologist making these determinations, if ever one fits into a box of oppressor or oppressed is the one that's figuring out which box to favor which Outlook is the correct Outlook will there's gotta be someone who transcends the box and in the social justice mindset. It's the sociologist will we know that it's actually God. God has the outlook that you can legally get everything and his word is true, he can adjudicate between any division or difference of perspective and she knows the truth. We need to know his word okay. That's what Christianity teaches is very similar for the metaphysics social justice activist reduce everything down to ones and zeros so there's oppressors. There's oppressed. Everything fits into that there is nothing neutral we can find oppression on the McDonald's menu uses narrow channel of evaluation and they can connect anything to some kind of oppression because of that, and it really refutes itself because the very idea that everything breaks down into oppressor or oppressed that very concept. Where did it come from is not a concept derived from oppression or is it a concept derived from being oppressed that it can't tell you it's it's it's just something they assume and it does imply if you apply their worldview to their basic assumption. The whole thing self-destructs. The Bible teaches that we have much in common.

We are made in God's image downriver in Christ. Of course we have something in common. There, there's also differences between us and in the world is full of flavor and life and there's just so many things that fall outside of whether one is is oppressed or on oppressor and then of course the gospel.

The gospel is the biggest part of this that disturbs me where there's sort of an insinuation that if you don't participate in activism that you're missing out on a gospel issue or you only have half the gospel for you. You need there's something left that Christ needs to complete in you for you to have the true gospel and I'm sorry the good news which is what gospel means is that Jesus has died in your place, and he has given you his righteousness in exchange for your sin and made things right with the father. That's the good news is bad news when you talk about works because I'll never be able to do enough work to merit God's favor, but social justice activists think they can do that and their to be a hamster wheel for ever trying to renew their commitment to fight against injustice, and that will never be satisfied John Harris with us today in the Christian worldview featured guest in the film that we are offering enemies within the church. You can order a copy for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview to our film.

Just go to the website the Christian worldview.org or call us toll-free 1888 646-2233.

You can also write to us in her address is given immediately following the program today but another soundbite here from the film where it touches on what's going on in these big parachurch organizations like crew, formally known as campus Crusade for Christ or inter-varsity starts out with you commenting on crew placement. Finding out the Southeastern Baptist theological seminary is not the only compromised institution with an evangelical Christianity. In fact, most of evangelical Christianity is compromised on some level or is in the process of being compromised. So one of the first things that happened after finding out the extent of, to which the cancer had been developing in the southern Baptist convention. I was reached out to buy people at crew formally campus Crusade and they were telling me about what was happening in their organization and I decided to start watching their staff conference from the summer 2019 and it was worse than anything I think I had seen it Southeastern it was a woke fast.

Your value is determined based on my values determined under proximate awareness. It is important for us to be awake into the racial inequities you may not be rated ever. But we all live in a race alive. One is actually on staff with crew had everyone in the audience stand up and they read a liturgy against white privilege, confessing their sin, we have formed and developed structures that the nomination is why excluding the voice of your global church due to racism and racial segregation. Lord have mercy with knowledge the racial hierarchies and structures of privilege may have benefited from many have been oppressed by Lord have mercy. The audience thereafter.

She repeats these these statements is saying we lament this was at a crew conference from him again. This is from the film enemies within the church. John tell us what is going on, not only in seminaries. Christian colleges was coming to the church but tell us about the scene what is taking place within these really well-known parachurch organizations like crew inter-varsity elsewhere inter-varsity's been compromised for quite some time. I really since the 1970s. To be honest they were in that first wave of new left evangelicalism in 1970 and 73. There were some big conferences. Then you can see the same exact thinking. I mean if you go back to the inter-varsity conferences or Bono from that time you can find guys like Tom Skinner talking about the gospel of the fundamentalist which is faith in Jesus Christ and then think the social gospel and how we need to merge that you and Tim Keller. By the way ate this stuff up and loved it. So he's in the PCA he sees through Tom Skinner's influence in many others pushing things that direction in the PCA as far as crew. They were more I say faithful up until very recently and from what I've heard from people who work in the organization. It's really been 2015 or so to the current time that things have really gotten radical and the clip you are playing were from the 2019 staff conference and the lament session was Leticia Morrison. She wrote a book called be the bridge its total critical race theory. Every aspect of critical race theory is represented in it, but this is what's happening in these organizations they will say that they're not promoting critical race theory Latasha Merritt Morrison says I don't promote any critical race theory we talking about the reader book and it matches perfectly critical race theory.

There's kind of a deception going on where to what they're trying to say is that we are getting this from the Bible. It's just biblical teaching that were giving you when it's clearly not there importing social justice teaching into biblical categories and so if you find a verse that says let justice roll down or something that's positive about justice in the Bible will import a Marxist definition of justice and say will that's what it means. We have kind of a cat and mouse game going on in any of these denominations and organizations crew has had a battle for the lot. Really since that convention that you play clips from where there's a group of staff members who are very concerned about this and tried to reform the organization from the inside but have met major resistance from the leaders of the organization who pretend there's really no problem and then you have those from the lenses Institute, which is at an organization within crew that is explicitly pro-critical race theory.

They are on the other side is saying we need to go even harder left and so both sides cannot coexist in the same organization and these organizations are starting to fracture. And the sad thing about it is leadership tries to keep the sides together and pretend like there's nothing happening.

We have unity and his peace peace when there is no peace. You have to take a side or else your organization is just going to class and crew is in the middle of that in my opinion right now.

If anything, is probably the left. That's getting the upper hand and the conservatives are kind of their leaving for progressively leaving the organization and finding other places to minister and same thing with the Southern Baptists.

Same thing with many other denominations organization become a Christian worldview partner by calling one of only 646-2233.org writing to Box 401 Excelsior, MN 55331 recent gas and Cal bison or defines economics as moral philosophy applied to marketplace relationships, so it makes sense that as our nation's judgment of what is right and wrong has moved away from biblical morality or economic policies have gone the same wrong direction. So what is the Christian worldview and economics. Cal bison or has written an insightful 56 page softcover booklet titled biblical foundations for economics that shows how economic principles and policies need to be based in the Bible to achieve the greatest human flourishing for limited time we are offering biblical foundations for economics for donation of any amount to the Christian world to order go to the Christian worldview.org: one AAA eight 646-2233 or right to Box 401, Excelsior, MN 55331 in the website is the Christian worldview.org David Weeden here, host of the Christian worldview radio program. Listeners are often surprised to learn that we as a ministry paid to broadcast on the radio station website or app in which you are listening today that expenses recouped through listeners like you making a donation or becoming a Christian worldview partner.

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I'm David we just a reminder that today's program in past programs archived at her website. Christian worldview.org transcripts are also available. Now back to today's program. John Harris with us today on the Christian worldview talking about the theological news behind the social justice movement, books, and social justice. We have them both link to our website and the Christian worldview.org also a podcast or conversations that matter.

Now the last couple weeks and this we concluded there's been lots of specific names mentioned on the program and within the film. By the way enemies within the church to with Withers Elmore.

The present Southern Baptist theological seminary or Tim Keller or David Platt or Pastor Matt Chandler from Texas or Mark Denver Lincoln Duncan John Piper and there there many others we don't mention their names to state that these people are complete apostates apostate someone who denies Jesus Christ and who he is and what he did or not saying that what we are saying about them is that they have shown indications I'm sure there's a specter amounted to some are more into it than others.

John so maybe you could help us explain when we when we talk about somebody's really big name evangelicals. How should Christians view these leaders of media throw the baby out with the bathwater or do you just have to have a discerning eye. Knowing that there is sympathies in some of these men toward the social justice movement, how should we view them as a difficult question. I had a question recently at a conference about what we do with good books menu of compromise and I don't know the full answer and we sing him. Sometimes I get is well with my soul written by Horatio Spafford kind of whence really heretical by the end of his life, and in so there are times that we do things like that way that I think about this and it really helped others is I look at the book of Galatians and I see the distinction that Paul makes between the false teachers who he says are in anthem. In other words, you know, curse, and then people like Peter who were simply providing cover for the false teachers they weren't being clear about the gospel.

Clarity is so important right now more than ever, and pastors who will be clear on these things need to be rebuked in the same way Paul rebuked Peter now course you want to clarify you and I must say and go and be a jerk and start flame throwing what I'm saying is make make sure that you heard correctly what your pastor Stanko privately really make sure, but if there is an attempt to try to live at peace with a false religion then that needs to be challenged. Some of the names that you just mention some of them I would think are at the very least, and that Peter category name to maybe worse, but at least in the Peter category and others. I would say I would their false brother and further in there specifically to spy out and forward a false gospel. I hear Matt Chandler for instance will use him preach at IT 4G and he talks about systemic evil, and he gives the impression to the entire crowd that they are complicit in some kind of a sin simply because they haven't done enough to stop systemic racism or because there that their skin colors, white, and there there part of whiteness in some way and have white privilege and that this is some horrific sin, any parallels that with the apostasy that took place in the book of Malachi, he makes of a parallel here is age that that where your year in idolatry. What he's doing is he's he's signaling that he's buying the categories of the false religion he's he's preaching. He's starting at leasing on the road to preaching another gospel is changing what sin is and when you start tampering with the fundamental DNA of the gospel you're going to get a false gospel, you have a problem. Tim Keller does this to some extent.

He talks about just as he defines it in a 2010 article Christianity today as owing. The poor as much as you can give them know that sounds nice but I'm sorry charity is giving to the poor.

If the poor have a claim on us and we owe then there's an obligation will everyone is in need of salvation. But God doesn't provide salvation for everyone, and so is God unjust you can see how this can play with the gospel, you change the definition of justice and it's gonna change the gospel and so we have to be careful to him to make sure were defining our terms sin, justice, good news gospel.

Let's define these terms biblically, let's use them in the way that the apostles use them instead of the way that modern social justice activist try to use them because of any even slight variation to get that foot in the door and so I would be very wary and very careful and cautious of someone who's gonna start fundamentally changing the DNA of the gospel and of course if there someone like Jarvis Williams or Walter Strickland and they are explicitly saying you don't have the gospel in less you do something some social justice work. Then you have to say that's a false brother, you know, we reject that completely good example of this would be the local church very popular. Eric Mason wrote that book, Lincoln Duncan and factor of the forward to this book and he says in that book that their secular groups out there forwarding social justice that Christians can learn from in order to live out the gospel better.

I'm sorry non-Christians are not helping us in the world to reach people with the gospel. They don't have the gospel they can't do that reforming the prison system is in the gospel, that is, that is a category confusion that we cannot compromise on. We discussed this a couple weeks ago.

That's not helpful to speak in generalities about the movement and what social justice is that's important, but we need to know actually who is promoting in her who was on board with and to what degree so that we all can be more discerning. We can be like the Marines who went to the Scriptures to see whether things being said were so we just can't make assumptions because of some of the most popular evangelical leaders. No one is above being critiqued not unfairly criticized but actually critiqued for what they have publicly said or written or preached. John Harris is with us today here on the Christian worldview as we we consider this title wave to the once more conservative theologically evangelical church. How can this be stopped to John or do you see this as it is just going to take captive it's it's come too far now is just gonna take captive a sizable wing of evangelicalism. There's gonna be a smaller remnant remaining.

I would encourage people, especially people who might be listening is skeptical or frankly angry who might think that what I'm saying or perhaps what Kerry Gordon setter Michael Fallon said is motivated by some kind of racism or there is a lying element going on, or a jealousy Ellen if you think any of those things I would just encourage people to same way Paul did to just go check out what I'm saying to my book has a lot of footnotes.

In addition, you go to the sources read what these people are saying compared to what Scripture teaches and come to your own conclusion about a don't believe just because I said and I think that's the way that were going to get out of this I'm actually arty seeing this start to happen. The there's a separation going on churches are splitting churches are forming.

People are starting to associate with others to understand this threat and the dust hasn't settled yet. But this process is Artie taking place. Generally speaking, when it's done right. It looks like confronting the situation clarify making sure you heard correctly and if it's false teaching. You confront the situation if that's not accepted and follow that Matthew 18 outline and you you take others in and you keep trying to win your brother and and if if it just becomes clear that this is a an issue that's been a divine you and you need to go somewhere else you may need to be part of a church planter and new church of there's not one in your community. And so this is happening all over the place and it breaks my heart.

In some ways, but in other ways, and I'm very happy to see that God will always preserve his church. Paul did not compromise for one minute. He says that the truth of the gospel and so that's what we need to be uncompromising and the motive should because we love people the end of Romans 16. Paul warns about false teachers who come in and use flattering words preach against the doctrine of Christ and their motive is their bellies and our motive needs to be a love for people not our own bellies our own platform you who cares who John Harris is right. I'm so appreciative for you, David, but I didn't take take this the right way because I love you, what you know but who cares who David Wheaton is we care Jesus Christ right in and so that is what is going to win the day.

At the end and God's going to be behind. He has behind it and he wins in the end, and a false teaching is not going to prevail. His kingdom will him even if it looks bad out there.

Just keep looking to God for inspiration. Don't look at the waves like Peter did look to Christ. Be bold, be courageous and some people are starting to be that way and it encourages my heart. Well, you certainly are John and we appreciate the way you've really investigated this you've written extensively on it.

He did a really good job and enemies within the church in your interviews. There informing people is really the first step because once people are informed and then summer gonna take it to the next conclusion they're gonna look to Scripture, see whether these things are so and they're going to protect.

Like you said, people there of their own family there school there may be the Christian school or college from having these things really destroy them. So thank you for coming on the Christian worldview today. We wish all of God's best, and grace to you in your writing or speaking your podcasts.

Thank you again for coming on the program is an absolute pleasure, David. Thank you all help you gain from the interview today with John Harris. If you missed any of it. You can always hear archived programs@herwebsitethechristianworldview.org while you're there, you can also order the DVD of this documentary film enemies within the church. It's a two hour film were making it available for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview. You can order their online or you can just call us at 1888 646-2233 and I'll give the address at the end of the program. If you'd rather write to us so I've been thinking. Why is social justice so alluring. Number one because there has been injustice. There have been historical wrongs against Blacks against women against others is certainly not systemic today as they would say. So there is some truth to the big lie but certainly not to the extent to which it is alleged and accused number two social justice appeals to pride. It's like solving the big problem. The, the Middle East conflict, never solving an issue of racism and sexism that have created conflict in society for millennia.

If you think you've discovered an issue that 2000 years of Christians have somehow missed that you have a new way beyond salvation and sanctification. To solve this issue, you are likely totally unaware of your own pride to think that you've discovered something in this new solution to it. The third reason social justice is so alluring be is because of the power and adulation that comes with being a social justice warrior you are going to be praised, and platform from the most esteemed in society but the fact is, social justice adds to and undermines the true biblical gospel.

When people repent and believe in Christ. Here's what happens as a says in Galatians chapter 3 starting in verse 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. In other words, when you become a believer. You're all sons of God. Verse 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ. Those who are saved have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Verse 28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, rakes down the ethnicity distinction, there is neither slave nor free man breaks down the class distinction there is neither male nor female breaks down the gender distinction for you are all one in Christ Jesus. The gospel makes all who are saved one in Christ regardless of race or gender or any other identity. Yes, there are differing roles for men and women within the church in the home, but they are still one in Christ. Meanwhile, social justice makes everything of race of class of gender and sets these identities at odds with each other in an effort to create court and court equity. It discriminates against one group against another. To achieve this co-worst outcome. How about we just do what the Bible says in Leviticus 19 where it says you shall do no injustice in judgment you shall not be partial to the poor, nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. That will go a long way in society toward breaking down barriers and that would be unifying rather than trying to force certain diversity equity inclusion makeups of your churches elder board of the types of books from by Pok authors that now must be read in your Christian school. Instead, let's view other believers as God does, as one in Jesus Christ.

And let's be impartial. Thank you for joining us today on the Christian worldview. Thanks also to our Christian review partners and Samaritan ministries for funding today's program just a moment there'll be information how you can hear a replay of today's program order transcription resources and support this nonprofit radio ministry. Be encouraged.

We may live in a world that's going headlong over social justice. Let's remember that Jesus Christ and his word are the same yesterday and today and forever. So until next time think biblically live accordingly and stand firm. The mission of the Christian worldview is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians into proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end, to hear replay of today's program. Order a transcript to find out what must I do to be saved. Go to the Christian worldview.org or call toll-free 1888 646-2233. Christian worldview was a listener supported nonprofit radio ministry foundation to make a donation become a Christian worldview partner order resources subscriber free newsletter or contact us visit the Christian worldview.org 1888646 22 right to Box 401, Excelsior, MN 55331 that's Box 401, Excelsior, MN 553. Thanks for listening to the Christian worldview