From Nothing: Creatio Ex Nihilo, Pt. 2

Your answering right and and fireflies will come back to us this week's episode were going to burn you the rest of our discussion on creation did God create text Nilo or X materia since we posted last episode into several of the discussions on Facebook.

We have some really good interaction there with listeners and with Latter Day Saints side up about. I'll call out a couple of the groups where there's been good discussion.

Evangelical Latter Day Saints.

There's been good discussion on the poster as well as Mormon. The biblical discussion group.

We had some discussion bears well. So some of the questions that have come up why in the previous episode. We did not go into a lot of the biblical data related to creation ex Nilo of the reason for that is based on the request from the latter-day St. missionary received. We focused more on the upstream and downstream theological implications of creation ex Nilo or creation X materia less question in today's episode will focus a bit on some of the biblical data, but again is not comprehensive and again the reason for that is because we wanted to focus on where the implications of viewing creation is ex Nilo or X materia for the rest of your theology. Maybe in the future will do episode focused more on typical data for ex, Nilo specifically but we do get into some of that within the discussion threads on those Facebook groups that I mentioned. So if you're interested jumping to those Facebook groups you can join and take a look at the discussion. There I'll add links to those discussions in the show notes for this episode. Thanks for listening. We look forward to sharing the rest of this discussion with you. So let's get into it you a short answer if you want on this but do you believe that God can't create out of nothing is less worthy of God less worthy of worship to God can't call what you think I I do think so you not I said really early on we started the podcast that that my experience of coming into Christianity, was that I asked dear against true worship for the first time.

I don't know. Looking back I don't know what I was doing as a latter-day St., but I do know that I was not worshiping God in the same way that I worship him now, so the gospel of John says this is eternal life to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent and I think Latter Day Saints agree with that Scripture. If you look at the lectures on faith and what they have to say about knowing God is this the first sensible according to lectures on faith and so it's it's sobering to think about who God is and so yeah I think I think a God who cannot create everything is less worthy of worship. Paul talks about this in Romans one. Knowing God as creator, it's it it enjoins us to worship. Why does it enjoin us to worship as God created all things right.

The Bible says that nothing came into being the gospel of John chapter 1. Nothing came into being that is coming to come into being without him, referring to Jesus Christ the word to the God who was God with God, and one who was God so I would ask Latter Day Saints. What what or who are you, are you worshiping and how does that worship come about because knowing God is all-powerful creator of all things, knowing that my very existence is a result of his free choice to act and create that places me in a position where I can say thank you, genuinely and from the heart because life is an amazing, beautiful thing is a latter-day St. I believe I always existed. I didn't come into being because God chose to create.

I would've existed in some form. Regardless of what God chose is a latter-day St. so so yeah that's that's my answer to that question Michael, thank you for that Matthew Ely thoughts on that ethics often at those great men. I wasn't really thinking about what you just said was in many think on about a filament.

The idea that just effectively exist at all is a gift from God. Whereas Latter Day Saints exists already. So that's truly poignant thoughts. I think that think more about that but yet it I think it's the God who reveals himself in Scripture is the God you has created everything that he didn't require something to exist eternally and reshape it to make us so when you look at, like Isaiah 4424 this is what the Lord says he was Redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb. I the Lord and the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by myself spreading out the earth long. It also sees a causing the omens of diviners to fail making fools of fortunetellers, causing Wiseman to back it makes naught ridiculous so he says I am the one who in verse 27 I'm the one who sets the deficits you dry up, and I will make rivers dry up as ice as Osiris. He is my shepherd, you will carry out all my desire nieces of Jerusalem. She will be built the temple. Your foundations will be laid so he he's in control of everything was created everything and sustains everything is on you upset earlier and so yeah just just I did it. Not only did everything come to existence because of God's will that he sustained his existence.

The technical options I does give you a sense of on wonder Everest. We also discussed, always describing and this idea that that I believe is Latter Day Saints that God was kind of following game plan that it kind of already art existed when Lucifer said why just doing what's been done on other worlds.

Well okay so there's this plan Artie laid out so God doesn't really have the free will to do anything but what is done, he kinda just has to do gets to go to the program. Well, we don't believe that he's done that on other worlds, or that God has are the other gods of created humans and Dave ascended to God. This noise hardly notices all of existence. God created it for his glory and there is no other God. There's no other existence.

So just that that idea that I need to set it up. There is only one God like him and that it's not just following a program it's it's God decide to make everything as did because he chose to do it that way just makes for me and makes it makes more real it makes it more rather than just feel like I will.

There's this game plan is been set forth in eons of epics before God, he would existed as God and you know everybody has to follow this plan of the stairs, eternal, unchanging laws were supposed to follow these laws but instead God graded everything he made a place you wanted to be just makes the focus more on him rather than on Austin on this planet were supposed to follow are all the laws that God has to obey.

So it's it gives me more of a focus on God himself. Yeah, I love that Matthew. I love that diversity strategy would says he's the maker of all things, and I mean yes Latter Day Saints. Maybe I thought it was a little bit more logical to be like oh God's not breaking the first love thermodynamics you know, creating the matter can't be created or or destroyed glacis. Even if it's it feels logical exploring. To be honest, you know, there's nothing special about that God is just like me, he has to obey. He's under all the laws of science instead of over all the laws of science and I do get a sense of awe and wonder and a God who can create something that science says cannot be done.

That is amazing. We talked about how you know there's theories out there in Mormonism where God the first God that was ever out there may have walked this path without any help and for the exact same thing kind and being that we do not need this God in all but completely takes away the need for God sake I might go to the grocery store and and maybe somebody helping me check out is nice but there's also the self checkout and I can go do that just as easily link you don't need that middleman but in Christianity, there is absolutely a need for this God because we are not the same kind and being read are not able to ascend to heaven on our own. We need this God that is over science. He is over the problem of evil unity does not rely on evil to exist like this is the God that I want my faith and my love and my trust in and although I didn't think it was a big deal when I was Latter Day Saints I do now and I do not want to give my worship to God has to use pre-existing material to create because that being is just like me and I'm like I don't worship another team would be to preach Michael so I got a little carried away there.

All right, excited. I did say in the introduction of this episode that this doctrine trickles down and everything else I want to talk about that a little bit here. I'm starting this with you. Matthew in your opinion, does the mode of creation affect what happened during the fall to change things, and when I was reading this question and thinking about it. It's kinda difficult is because it's hard to put myself out of where I am now back to where I was before.

Sometimes, so if we believe the God graded everything. Something that art existed. How does that affect the fall well. It is strange will ask I think you have to go back to their view of this divine counsel to God. The symbol of the gods together as Abraham and they decided this plan and eight proposed a Savior and there were two that volunteer there is Christ you volunteered and promised free will and then seeking volunteered also.

And because everybody would be saved. And so Jesus's plan was chosen so when you go back to that and how that that flows into the fall. It's it's it's difficult to understand why you would want to trust God when he gave two contradictory commandments to the garden and he gave the command to be fruitful and multiply, but also not particular through and so in Christian theology don't have that issue.

But know this theology, they were contradictory and that it was impossible for them to have children in the garden but God still created everything set up that way almost to want them to sin. You know Chris and yelled you don't believe that God forced them to say in or that David had to sit theoretically, hypothetically, I guess you could say a sense they could have remained in the garden but they didn't. Dave they knowingly chose to sin, and so when you think about creation from nothing. It it's a versus X material since were all for all intelligences role organized. It seemed like God it already chosen Adam and Eve specific intelligences to fulfill that role. Knowing that they would send do not immune.

I don't know there's a lot of things that I've thought about this and try to understand how it would affect the fall and I'm trying to make connections there with my head but it's slow but struggles because there's so much involved with this idea been creating nothing worse matter of you guys to try to fill the gaps attract flexible 11 try to make yet it's totally okay. Matthew actually don't remember what I was thinking when I wrote the question so I don't blame you but thought unique thoughts and on our way in a little bit on it without admission no no I think it can affected okay to talk to why I think so instance you couldn't get to an answer. So Michael, you and I wrote an article together in which we kinda called out the fact that on on Mormon theology. God didn't really give us free agency. If we were already autonomous intelligences. So, free agency is not really a gift given by God on on Mormonism. It's something we already had an effect.

If that is the case then creation ex materia definitely does prove does affect the fall right because you know how would how would God on Mormonism for no that Adam and Eve would fall, if not from the fact that he knew he was creating from autonomous beings already that he couldn't control and you know Mormonism Mormons lately. Do you kinda tend to walk into that that kind of open theist view where God isn't in control of everything in and isn't sovereign and is is constrained by the will of man, so there's that. How would creation ex in yellow affect the fall, God would freely choose to create beings and give them free will lease with regards to Adam and Eve. I think both Arminians and Calvinists would agree on that point that Adam and Eve were fully free to choose how to act, God would also for no how they were going to act and so the plan would be a plan devised or ordained-when is a Calvinists term by God from the beginning from before the foundation of the world as it is said of Jesus Christ, but it was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So all of it would be the plan of God and would be fully under the sovereignty of God, you could get into the difference in differences between Calvinists arm and Arminians from the fall forward, but that from creation through the fall. I think Calvinists arm and Arminians are fully agreed that it is all the plan of God. Where is as you are pointing out Matthew with your sly reference to the temple ceremony on Mormonism.

God is just doing what is been done on other worlds fits one eternal round over and over and over again, which is Michael pointed out this morning. It's predictable, I guess is a good way to put it yet so I started to kind of get the wheels turning your a little bit that are so things are interesting if if God created everything ex materia what that means for the fall is that first of all Adam and Eve were eternal beings and they been eternal beings for eternity, for this this moment recently become mortal and so it's it's out a much bigger deal. I guess in that sense for them to be mortal but it's also helical. If there eternal beings than what what right does God have two turn the mortals for disobeying him if there equal. It seems odd for them to have to follow his commandments down here but one thing is interesting to is that you and the temple video you got Lucifer coming in saying I'm I'm just doing the same thing that's been done in other world basically meaning. I know that this is the plan that they're supposed to fall and I'm here helping it along. So why are you punishing me for doing your will I get next he makes Satan, the good guy because God is giving them contradictory commandments, that they cannot keep. And then there's Lucifer actually pushing the plan along on the other big issue is that if we were all created ex materia and we were spirits and we were all present in the pre-existence. We all made the conscious decision to come to earth and to obey God's commandments and then he sent us here in a race all of our memory and then condemns us based on our wrong decisions and that just doesn't seem like a god that is not benevolent. If you ask me to erase our memories and then retest us after were already loyal to him.

I just can't imagine doing something like that to my Canada I come to erase your memory and then test you and see if you can get back to me site just not my thing.

I guess houses are some of my thoughts on that.

But let's move on to the next thing here so just let you were talking on Gnosticism earlier Gnosticism Gnosticism taught that there was this demiurge, the slower divine being who created the physical evil physical world and that he entrapped the Aion's who were eternal beings in this evil physical world and the secret knowledge is how to ascend out of this evil physical world that II know you not only did the parallel of mania. But that sounds very similar to what you were just describing from the temple video right but even even more than that, the book of Mormon presents God as kind of tricking Adam and Eve into partaking of the fruit by giving them the contradictory commandments that can't keep both so they have to break one to keep the other they have to partake of the fruit in order to procreate and know the book of Mormon clearly teaches us. Adam fell that men might be. It's a free choice. According to Mormonism on Adam's part but it's it's still kind of a deception to to is you are pointing out Michael bit dated been on Mormonism may have been eternal beings for eternity.

So it's it's just it's almost a way of entrapping them in a mortal probation that III know Mormonism escapes that do their whole cosmology where from from the Council in heaven is presented that they freely chose to enter him that we all freely chose to enter mortality right but it's it just strikes me how many similarities there are two Gnosticism within Mormonism. And when you consider the connection with Freemasonry and Smith connection. Since familial connection with freemasonry.

It's not surprising the more you're talking about the marcasite man that really does sound super familiar, so that that is crazy and yeah that is less.

If I had really considered as God. One quick thing at the dinner discussion that came to mind. Everything about how we are eternal beings we all asked every agency that we believe didn't do my distinctly the Adam and Eve were the most righteous. Basically, apart from Christ amongst all the children of God, and that's why they were chosen to be first guessing it so they were among the most righteous of God's children and they were chosen to be first children and yet they were put in his position to where they were supposed to disobey doesn't seem like it doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't take a lot of sense to me by God. God like all right you're the ones it will do exactly as I tell you so.

Now go down and do something that's going to completely confuse you in one way or the other, you're going to basically be forced to pay and then when you think about a more it kind of makes the fall. A good thing. You know, when we read the Bible talks about how the fall brought death about Caesar brought corruption about saying about all these negative things. I'm not a just humanity.

Patient and Larry seems to believe that a lot is betting scheme but ultimately was good is good. They send, because otherwise we could come to be so when we believe this preexistence, but God and that these righteous ones came to earth, and that there are basically kind of almost forced to send Mike a dip they really did have much choice right zero voice in one way or the other that's that's one way why it kind of linchpins and position were asked good fall has to be good no matter how you look at us as one thought I had one thing that's that that does to visit in my opinion it takes. The first thing away from from Adam and Eve, and it places it on God for putting in putting them in that position in the first place. I mean, I think immediately. Your you're stuck with not having a holy God is going to force stand not on you when you're not a sinful creature yet and just give him a mind to is crazy because in the preexistence we made you as a little and we all made this conscious decision to bring to come down were going to keep our first estate and take bodies. But then all of our agency is placed on Adam and Eve where they have the choice to override all of our choice to come to earth if they just decide never to get the fruit and think will.

How is that fair because that impedes our agency if they don't eat the fruit is any other thoughts or actually move on to the atonement. Okay. However, this contest from to walk with Jesus when he does this really a measurement that is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teaching. The name of our podcast out of brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life the on Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, out of brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition fears and challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. How is the motive creation affect the atonement will go to you first. On this one pass. How does the fall is the motive, creation affect the atonement so the atonement comes about because of the fall. The fall places us in the situation where we are at odds with with God. I think both Mormonism and Christianity would agree on that point. Mosiah 319 them for the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever, unless he yields the enticings of the Holy Spirit and become at the St. at about how the rest like us."

But so the sum of all places it in at enmity with with God and the atonement is the solution to that Jesus came and and died for our sins.

There's possibly a significant separation of the paths between Mormonism and Christianity. At that point because of Mormonism's teachings about the garden of Gethsemane and that the atonement took place there rather than on the cross and there are many Mormons who still believe that that's an important doctrinal different difference for them because it according to them, it means that God only required the obedience of Christ and didn't require a sacrifice for sin. And so therefore they bade they see their view of the atonement as being superior because God is not bloodthirsty to put in in pretty stark terms right but if you talking about creation ex materia. We talked a lot tonight about know how Latter Day Saints try to get around some of Joseph Smith's more thorny teachings towards the end of his life, about multiple gods by saying will maybe Elohim is the first Louisville he was the first of is what we talked about tonight. We don't need this mortal probation to to walk if we are co-eternal with God, we could just simply figure it out on around how to do what Elohim did creation ex Nilo, how about it, how would that affect the atonement.

I'm just trying to talk to get an answer guess if you want to jump God. God chooses to create. Why does God choose to create God's Trinity, father, son and Holy Spirit. Internally, one God, there is love experienced by the three members of the Trinity and for one another and the decision to create is a decision of love to share what the father son and Holy Spirit have with the creatures that would be created well yeah yeah I got a couple vaccinated can grease the wheels a little bit so so ungodly came to me as you know if this is this pattern. It is continually going on. You Jesus himself would've come to earth and he would've been earning his own exaltation to serving. That's a huge difference in the atonement right there that that Jesus is doing it not solely as an act of I guess grace for us that it's also good to have a selfish element to it where this is part of my descendents into heaven, which I've mentioned this on the podcast before but I find it troubling to think that a finite being one who had not been perfected yet somehow was able to perform in infinite atonement, but you also mentioned Paul that Latter Day Saints will say their version of the atonement is superior because they're not saying McDonald's bloodthirsty right that there was doubt there's there's evil and it's always there, and so your God was just giving us a way out of the predicament that naturally exists, whereas Billy Keyes asked of saying well, God save us from the punishment of his own sin and though try to say that God is a moral monster because he was going to throw us down to hell and he just saved us from himself. So that's that's one thing that I've heard Larry since bring up quite a bit. If you have any thoughts on that to God as creator right Paul. Paul's point in Romans one is that kind of the beginning of sin is a failure to recognize who God is, as our Creator right there and that we owe him our worship and allegiance. That's the whole point of Romans one and that's kind of the beginning of sin is just not recognizing who God is, as creator and what I mean by that is like I said before, we owe our very existence, to him without without God's free choice to create view.

Matthew and I would not be here and no one else would either.

And so when you owe your very existence to God that does place you in a position where you were allegiance in your your worship in your trust and your your everything is is owed to God on on the Mormon view, why, why would you worship, why, what, what is what is sin right does God have on the Mormon view does Elohim have the right to punish sin, on other eternal beings why Woody asked and I can't think of a reason why he would, but having a creator God who created everything that is ex Nilo that God does have the right to punish sin, does it make sense yeah I mean it really does because you were coeternal with God in me that's like a coworker following you home from work and pulling you over and giving you a ticket for speeding our punishing you for your job that you do at work. It's like do you have the authority to you know write me her fire me or anything because you're my coworker like you're not perfect either.

Doing so yeah I completely get what you're saying there. Another thing to I thought of is the way the atonement works and I don't know if you can argue that this is that natural production of creation. But you know you all all the dozen Mormonism is a just paves the way for you to abandon progress on your own with God's help a little bit and I think that makes sense if you're an eternal being already and you got that potential working. Maybe you couldn't become a God on your own without any help from a deity that the atonement would work in such a way that you're kind of pulling yourself out of the mock, I know a lot Latter Day Saints will disagree with my terminology there but with creation ex Nilo mean yeah it makes more sense like this, God has to jump in and save us. Were not eternal beings were not God's an embryo on we actually do need him so he reached down, save us. Lee do not have the capability ourselves on what you think Matthew. Any thoughts on on this. I can hear you. Matthew, I think we lost you. Okay. Sorry that you had something backing up what you guys are talking about if we go back to her talk me how God made his will gotta make this plans plan is always exist. Next it's been happening on the world's people been wasting this mortal probation it and tested a perceived exaltation is been happening over and over and over again. It's like Paul said God it didn't really freely choose to do that, you know, it's kind of like a package deal that's always been there, and God is canna forced to do that is like he has no other choice but to send his son to die for every purse. And so we could think of it as marks God owes to us because we, as eternal beings were his children while he owes that to us because you his child so he owes me atonement and because it's a plan it's been set forth long before he was ever God's will that I deserve that plan and he has to provide that and so only thing that that way. The focus really is on us and what God can do for us provide for us rather than like we've been saying all along, pointing it bring us back to God's just think how gracious and how merciful he is that he decided to first grade us anyway because he didn't have to.

He was completely self-sufficient and completely happy and leg in eternity past before your existing subject to deciding the greatest one things huge active condescension on his part and two to save us simple creatures as an act of grace on his part is, and it's not something that we that we do that that mistreats them deserve it and it's not something that we earnestly something like that is, he gives completely freely by his own choice and it affects the atonement and in that sense it's just completely sheds us of any pride or any thought that we deserve any typos.

Treatment you know it's not something that we agreed to in a counseling before we can start Mel sign the dotted line.

So now God has to keep his end of the bargain. Something like that at all. God is to clean the ice on free will and choice of and it is that out of grace and mercy and love for us. Yet the thought that came to my mind is, you know, the Mormon God the whole little LDS plan of happiness. It's really kind of akin to like God by a franchise is not something that he created. This is something that he bought about ownership, but it already is supposed to function in a certain way, and there's expectations that come from and it's really not as impressive as starting your own business or starting your own thing and then being able to set all the rules and that's that's really our position as a Christian is Michael yet what to realize you yourself can have your own franchise you just got to get your own children underneath you. It's really a cool deal. Yeah I just like my children that already exist out there somewhere are just waiting for me to to come put them together just waiting for you to pitch the pyramid scheme to them.

Yeah, just, you know, eternity is gone.

I am pretty sure that they've already like figured out how to form themselves and how do I know that they're not already God is laughing at my inability to reach that position already looking at union other than like looking at the kid news that the son of a not huge entrepreneurial no businessman and he's like the Billy Madison you know you're like the Billy Madison you know your your drink and get high by the by the pool every day not come on man on earth already got waste of my time. Once the pain within that analogy of Satan in the carpet sent a servant of the Penguin arrives again back on topic with sadness conclude the conversation today. This is heaven go round and talk about any Bible verses that you want to any final thoughts you would like to share with Latter Day Saints residue on the first on this one. Sure, I think we might've already quoted earlier, but when were talking my best are preparing for the passage that comes to my mind is Colossians chapter 1 and allow scholars actually think that this was action response to some first kind of proto-gnostics that were starting to grow in that region. So was Michael Gnosticism. Is there some weird groups at strange ideas are starting to grow that similar ideas to what would later develop before Gnosticism third, there is a possibility.

People are worshiping Angels. There is one we talked with Aon's in the demi-urges that wasn't true, and a holy God the credit everything but they believe that there is a honor demiurge created the earth, that evil ideas so some people think that this is Paul's rebuttal of those ideas by directly demonstrating that Christ is the perfect image of God and that he created everything assassin evil.

God saw some other gods lesser God but Christ is God. The reason is on Colossians chapter 1 starting the first 15 it says Christ, he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for ever and he is before all things and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell at their him to reconcile to himself all things, but on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of the of his cross, and so I think whether it's creation fall the atonement glory. All that is made for God for his glory. And it's made by God and its will be reconciled to God. At the end of all things. So everything will be reconciled to God. Whether we are glorifying God by worshiping him in eternity, or whether we will be punished for our sins.

All things are will be reconciled and so when we look at the crossroads of time.

God created everything for him and I don't and there's nothing there that is not listed on earth or in heaven, lowered includes everything visible or invisible that again already includes any everything you see with your eyes you can't see that there is no third option and I whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. Paul's making it abundantly clear that everything that exists was made by God for God for the glory of God and all all things be reconciled to God doesn't unify universalism. It just means all things and will be will will be used for the glory of God and so I think that's a really powerful passage. I think that points to creation exiting.

Well, just I did. Everything is created and exists because of God's power and by his sovereign grace. There are certainly other passages that you could point to. But this is most the most powerful and all of it is for God's glory is to point to him to suffer us.

It's not to make a testing ground for us to provide a work worthy of eternal life or exaltation or something. God certainly participates allows us to participate in the divine nature by his mercy, but that the creation is space for God's glory primarily is not for our court. Yeah so so Matthew where it says there bad faith creates all things, including principalities, and in thrones, then yes, I will not say the obvious shipment and it sounds to me like there was no force of evil before creation that was warring against God like when using sprinkler that doesn't exist.

According to that passage you okay I just want to make sure we we state that because it says it pretty clearly my despondent make sure I posted your your spare time to shine unique passages for us a dog.

I'll now course, I earlier to John 13 where it says all things came into being through him him here being referred to as the word blog us all things can being through him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come out. That's clear enough, but I've had Latter Day Saints argue against and stay well, that's only referring to things that came into being right, so there are things like intelligence that did not come into being. So we were not created. So moving on Hebrews 11 verse three by faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. Presumably intelligences would be visible presumably chaotic and unorganized matter that the world would be made out of would be visible is visible now to us that the universe is visible now to us via a telescope including black holes in another things within universal again though going to Romans 417. This one just completely obliterates. I think the letter stated Latter Day Saints ability to walk back from John 13 and Romans 417, Paul says that God is the one who quote gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist so you know Mike my theology professor Jack Cottrell writes in his book about this passage has booked God most high God, the creator, ruler and Redeemer, Jack Koppel says, quote, here are the two greatest works in the repertoire of omnipotence are laid side-by-side calling life into existence out of its opposite and calling being into existence out of its opposite, nonbeing or nonexistence itself. There is no more forceful statement of creation from nothing in the Bible or anywhere and then Revelation 411 says of God."

You created all things and because of your will they existed or were created here. John says not only that God created all things, but that of him all things existed so good.

The challenge that Latter Day Saints use that that the creation create document creation ex Nilo comes late comes after the Bible I just don't think that stands up when you actually look at the New Testament as a whole and you look at what Jews believed about the Old Testament and the creator God brought the Hebrews 1, Skinner talk about that one. But thinking talked about a lot better than I was going to so you can appoint the listeners to the very beginning of the Old Testament. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Now I know as a latter-day St. I would probably try as a monster. You know the original language doesn't say you know created interaction be translated or that's not translated correctly, you know, pretty standard LDS response. So today I was like I wonder what the program price that so I went to Moses chapter 2, and lo and behold, it still uses the word create eye which I thought was really interesting because it's it's inaccurate or in LDS theology. The same God created anything because he doesn't create anything in Mormon doctrine, he only forms things preexistent serial as I thought well maybe leaving those two will you contact about things differently, but it is almost identical to the Genesis account in the Bible where he says I said let there be light and there was light.

He doesn't say i.e. forms the intelligence and turn it into light and then I said, let there be a firmament, let there be, you know all that. All the plans it and it's just his word, creating these things and you don't see any of the work being done which would need to be done if it was being formed by these these intelligence so I thought that was really telling that even according to the program price. You don't get this staff. This clear message and it seems to point more to the present position of X the dam good.

Genesis 1 in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth on Mormonism.

God lives on the planet near the start: that God created the heavens and the earth were due that God shift around some planets to make a space for his children had Genesis 1 doesn't really work with the with what Joseph Smith later claimed about what bowwow means whatever he claimed in the can follow this course so you thoughts on that. Yeah, although I'm not sure if you guys been know when it says he created the heavens and the earth.

I know times Jewish thought was that the heavens was just like the heavens it during the various levels of heaven, you know, so was that speaking of everything or just the heavens surrounding the earth immediately nine yeah but even if it was just the heavens surrounding the earth, it still says he created it and still I still don't see in the Genesis account anywhere any sort of evidence that that there was a putting together of anything, it's just it wasn't.

He spoken into existence and that it's there.

I don't know if I really exact answer to your question is how Gladys" Mike responded that yeah it's just funny because I would sort of a double edge sword for them to respond to it because a lot of times I would hear them saying here Protestants talk about the on the three heavens rightly Paul because he saw the third heaven in a global next. I want heavens, just the atmosphere and the other ones outer space I will. That's ridiculous, but you can't say it's ridiculous for that and then turn around and say it's ridiculous for Genesis like it's going to be consistent all the way around you any any final closing thoughts guys did I ever tell you guys my ex Nilo joke now… Okay so the other day I was praying and as I was thinking God for creating the world and the universe all the heavens and any responded and said oh it was nothing going on, something it would be hard joke, but sorry, I flies. That's it for this topic. Feel free to share your thoughts in the outer brightness group on Facebook is an aspect of this topic.

We missed something you'd like to see us discussing the future.

Let us know next week we will have a special guest on our friend Herman and by Herman. I mean hermeneutics. Until then, shine bright.

Thank you for tuning into this of the outer brightness we love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast free to send us a message than with comments or send a message of appreciated the page alive. We also have an outer brightness and others.

As we discussed the pursuit can also send this outer brightness on hear from you soon and subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on campus cast box cast the modified stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it shortly like a great can also connect with Michael just whined, lungs, and sometimes Poland Matthew as well.

Music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road.

By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com state bright fireflies to show the kind of man is a man in God the Lord to the he may and in the human way that man in