What About SCRIPTURE? Part 2

Your right and we will transition your time in your life. Have you read the Scriptures about her face, but the Quran of the Bhagavad-Gita, for example, when I was in high school I did read, specifically their texts kind of red you know bits and pieces from other authors interpreting their texting like you know this or legibly possesses religion believes that since so since I and all, since all my morning and experienced 2016. I kind of, there's a book by James White's what every Christian should know about the Quran and I think I've got it.

Just cross me that's a really good book so I about that and English translation of the Quran so I can like it gone through bits and pieces of it here and there and it's interesting. It's interesting to see the parallels between you know because he claimed to be Abraham's faith so it's interesting to see, like you know it's similar to the book of Mormon in the sense that you can see that there's kind of a lineage of like you know of similarities in some senses where they take inspiration from his prior texts. So yeah, I mean I read extensively that could all just bits and pieces I member my mission. Some people handed me the Quran, the look at and I immediately got excited about it because my mother and I thought that the Quran was true. Well Mike you know it's probably like the Bible there's a lot of truth in here. You know hidden in these pages.

That's just been lost in translation over time have actually met a lot of latter-day Saints.

You know the other missionaries and things you would've said that Mohammed was a prophet as well that God called his original writings were accurate and true.

I don't know if you guys ever heard anything like that. I preach my gospel mentioned something like you know God gives light to people and it mentions several people. I think anyone might mention Mohammed and Bennett. Also, much as Martin Luther also mentions that God gives certain like people, but I don't think it mentions that there specifically called as profits, and how to go so I mentioned earlier during during my my use that there was a really heavy Parmesan on the book of Mormon right and some some of the ways that translated to teaching at the local level rather than by general conference with applicable rewards was that you had some of the some people who would do a lot of speculation electors three Nephi kind of urban mess right that get passed around and Mormon circles will during that time there was the counter like no special emphasis on on D&C 8454 57 Michael talked about earlier.

You know like your under condemnation until you take seriously the book of Mormon and you know the teachings in the book of Mormon itself about enough for the records that will come to come forth in in the part of the narrative of the place is that there is this the steel section. The Joseph Smith wasn't able to translate and so there was a lot of speculation that went on at the local level as tooting all windows. The steel portion to be translated or ever speculation like behind his family came from Jerusalem and and donated to the Americas were not lost 10 tribes end up in one word. When will their records come forth and not one of the first presidency statement and I think I think the preach my gospel passage of the reformed French and Matthew probably is is referencing that but from the early onset, early 80s, 1981 or something like that. The first presidency made a statement on Mohammed and Nina from political standpoint that that probably falls falls more in line with the fact that the late 1970s and early 1980s was, like the dawn of like Middle Eastern terrorism, and a lot of people in the West like Salman Rushdie's book were first becoming aware of others long and so you know, the church probably felt like he needed to make a statement on it because there was suddenly talk of the Quran in the state of the Scripture. And so I think that's where some of that so that stems from.

I also can I have had a sense when I was going out the during that time.

Some of the speculation was also informing the need to make a statement like that so just my thoughts on not to just add a limit to that terrorist there's one letter to Lionel what he calls himself but there's supposedly a group in South America has a new book of Scripture and thus the Denver snuffer group that has a lot of Scripture and I think there's still that thirst amongst latter-day Saints. They want the steel portion there wondering why it's not coming and they see summer, satisfied with the teachings of their leaders and that's good enough for them to see that. Is there Scripture been there some that are like well in the profits of this was coming. So where is it so that when I see someone like Denver snuffer, longer like well I maybe this is the guy you notice he's gonna providing what I want is to asystole a steppingstone into the notice when I recall the Mormon underworld and Michael having not been not grown up in Utah. Probably not as aware of it may be now the online stuff but managed some very disturbing and crazy stuff that goes on. I remember him so I imagine you know that like at the local level. There were a lot of people who speculate about you know when the steel portion to come forth and they would teach lessons and Mike wasn't gospel Dr. neck I was younger, but the young men's and women's they would they would talk about you know like if were just faithful enough. You know like like the D&C says of her just faithful enough that additional stuff will come forth and they really accomplish an idea and member there was there's a guy in my ward. She was ward mission leader at the time that he was giving know that lesson is really pushing that kind of idea that is just a small, faithful enough, more scriptural, God will give us more and you know when Angela and I got married in the shooting hour before the donation cannot visit my family and when she was she was teaching the young adult Sunday school class at the time and he and his wife were and the other just a few years later I heard that the amount he left his wife in Russia, runoff and enjoying some no, underground Mormon sect and left his wife and children interviewed horribly sad and devastating situation. Knowing what I knew of Hanneman's family and noted that the kind of speculation that thirst that were mentioning that you can edit it diluted is kind of a steppingstone into that into the underworld. While I actually didn't know that much.

I don't know that much about this so this underworld. There is interesting that I was sick the whole Matthew mentioned Denver snuffer at the snuffer eye movement but they announced Thursday. Note the various polygamists acts know that have their own revelations and so you know when someone starts down the path afflicted. No, you did more as you are more and more righteous than more like a knowledgeable come forth, then you know that kinda leads to you that while the LDS church is is not providing them more so where the groups that are in and you know that it is Sica whole rabbit hold it down like Alice in Wonderland so yeah and I mean anything to you is if we all receive revelation and you know we ate close enough and with God receive that revelation all the time then it's almost like why do I need the LDS profit when I can just go often be my own profit exactly is a really good book is a natural quick divergent paths of the restoration.

If you want to know more about all the splinter groups. This book was lightly it was updated by the 1980s, I think a stop there, it is likely Denver snuffer that talks about all the groups that the splintered ever since. Joseph Smith like up until the 80s and it's like I knew about certain ones you because I knew about once here and there, but there are dozens of different groups that branched off the LDS church is crazy.

You know that Nell tried to mimic what Joseph Smith was doing the one most interesting to me was the strange night stringing movement. James Strang is on the apostles, the claimant, an angel came to him after Joseph Staten told him that he was the prophet and they moved up to was a beaver island Michigan and yeah ended up getting shot in the back by one of his followers crazy so many so many fascinating stories of wheat like they like as many scenes we saw this as a monolithic movement. You know like this is the way God was leading everything really like it's just the biggest group of dozens of many groups that claim the same authority thing I sorry, because I know you would be just to go down that radical, distant, just a couple more steps. It's funny because he always viewed Protestants as being so fractured you notice, you know, tens of thousands of just different denominations and this is all the result of the apostasy, but now it is there and I'm like oh we believe different things but there's this community and you weren't like when I going to church every Sunday and just talking about Calvinism or just talking about baptism because that's what our sect believes were reading were saying the Bible as a whole and and we are unified in its actually the latter-day St. movement that is fractured because all these fractured denominations, calm denominations with these splinter groups do not view each other as legitimate at all), then you mentioned this Strang asked method that initial statement, Martin Harris followed Ginger Strang for a period of time after after Joseph Smith was murdered and then Ben had a falling away from him before Martin Harris ultimately ended up in Utah but when I learned that I started out. It's interesting that you are encouraged to take Martin Harris is a reliable witness when it comes to know the book of Mormon and yet she she went after J&J's Ginger Strang and followed him. But the course. The LDS church would never acknowledge that Ginger Strang was producing Scripture on par with what Joseph Smith was doing so you know how how reliable does that make Martin Harris's witness Anna and I also think I also think Emma joined Entergy order. She joined a different group showing a different group for a while and she can move back to not to look into that. I know she she was definitely was pushing for her son to become the leader of those who remained in the in the Midwest which later became the reorganized Church in the community, Christ, and I don't know she went after another sector not having cheated for time and that she cannot act as funny because their whole at the succession his father to son, father, son, is profit for the last two are LDS, which is now created Christ. I think the last two prophets have had no blood relation to Joseph Smith is completely changed on that.

So this is fascinating. I love all that I listing all the stuff you know you know were not part of the latter-day St. movement anymore.

This is fascinating sure. So I asked you all about the Corona Bhagavad-Gita denied. I probably came to that question and include that question you might have out of the LDS church committed to detour through a more liberal approach to Mormonism and you may be on counter counter people and take that approach too often within the groups were running in. We pretend to encounter more orthodox believing latter-day Saints, but there you know there are a lot of folks that you reached a conclusion that that the book of Mormon is not a historical tax and so then the question becomes how do I maintain my activity in the LDS church.

I like that the values is teaching my children and you know I like community something to stick around.

How comfortable can I be holding these non-Orthodox non-Orthodox beliefs.

That's you know that's a question that each individual has to wrestle with.

But did I start wrestling with those questions and of course, among some of the more liberal leaning latter-day St. groups. The question is of a similar kind of hunger for Scripture. I would say so.

I would then public Mormon stories podcast community groups on Facebook and put them in that that group you know there's people there who are trying to maintain some some sort of connection to the LDS church. Maybe not so much in the last few years as earlier on but you see them does things like you know what you split your list of Scriptures. Now you know in the make a list of like their favorite novels or or even nonfiction books that that have really moved them to mean an end and an inspired Devon so it's it's it's it's a view of inspiration that you know how does it how does it better. But how does it bring more insight to my life for more learning rather than know that. Our view that that you touched on know Paul the apostle claim coining the term happy new Stasi no doubt by God X exploration is left when RC school talks about. There is no and so they also know the will also have this hunger, no cattle believe the book of Mormon anymore without that the scriptural taxes of the other major world religions. So I kind of went through. Where I I didn't know read the whole scriptural text but I did pick up a book that is called God's breath and it was selections from know that the scriptural text of the major world religions. So I had like selections from Genesis you know is as part of its tour section and it and I had no selections from the New Testament and has selections from the Quran insert selections from the Bhagavad-Gita and in each of the each of the scriptural texts was introduced by a scholar of of of that religion to candidate get a feel for you know the historical context in which the work was produced and who was produced by the authors were or author and kind of the scholarly view of and I remember reading through that book clear on the 2008 timeframe and Miller met in 2006 timeframe and realizing by bleeding those those introductions by the scholars of various religions that I didn't really have a firm grasp on the historical context for the production of any of the Scriptures of the major world religions, including the Bible. And that was that was like, like a major insight for me and and recognition of it of a deficit in my understanding so from that point forward. I really wanted to understand the Bible, especially from pharmacists will historical context from from the scholarly perspective and so that you know that's kind of where my reading of the limited reading of the scriptural text of the religions limitlessness to the realization that I I had got a lot to learn, listening to our podcast for most mornings on Micon to walk with Jesus and turn away from this grayness is Pygmalion nationality except in my born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teaching.

The name of our podcast out of brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. That's out of brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith what God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around this question. As you with your transition.

You have your beauty of the scriptural texts change my going go first on that. Yeah, I think my view of the standard works which is getting the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants probate price and in the old and new Testaments was actually strengthened a note I can of unit is as an anchor or a measuring stick for really discharging truth in general and I think some of it may been influenced by some of my Protestant friends, you know, just being a bad influence on me. In general by just kinda starting to see that as being more authoritative than what the leaders were saying and things really came to a head with the November policy they were saying.

As I mentioned in other episodes, but when nursing children of gay parents can be baptized and I was like okay that that's really hard for me because now the different things that I view in Scripture are all alighting there all going against each other because you know I do view the prophet what the prophet says is being Scripture, but it disagrees with what is said in the New Testament you know if they tried to keep the children from Christ.

He said bring the children to me and even the articles of faith, saying we will be mentally punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression, and I would say that I reviewed the articles of faith as being pretty close to Scripture as well and then having the spirit was also you tell me like know this is wrong and I think what you do in that situation where you can get contradictory things with what I've even Scripture is a letter to St. contradictory feelings and so the only solution was just to can elevate one of those above the other. I believe that that was the standard works based on Harold B. Lee, basically saying that that's the standard by which we measure all truth and and so they kind of let me eventually to appoint Aveeno exciting pre-musculature and come to where I am now which is you know it's almost soulless fiction because I've yet to see a system where somebody else can have authority and it doesn't go against what is in the Bible.

I just don't think that that is possible from from my life experience. I think that if there is another authority with the Bible. It's always going to try to usurp the authority of the Bible and just plain existing alongside the Bible is usurping the authority of the Bible develop a little bit with you. So I think back to late you when you started a Facebook group when you were still a latter-day Saints or the Facebook group the Mormon grace project. The goal was to try to get evangelicals to read the book of Mormon along with you. You might my feet transition really was kicked off by doubts about the historicity of the book of Mormon and you invited me to the group and I was there and watching everybody know. Read the book of Mormon together and kinda has conversations about and I and I was reading along, Mike, had another member provide my contributions were largely light questions about hey what about this is no historicity piece year or that are there. I kinda got the sense that like the historicity of the book of Mormon wasn't really a thing for you so can you comment on that was it was the thing for you are not really all middle-of-the-road because now you got some latter-day St. saying that the whole thing is just metaphorical which that would've really irked me as a latter-day St. Mike if this is all metaphorical. What is the point I don't still understand how some latter-day Saints can hold that position because they go through the genealogies in the book of Mormon omicron.

Why would they do, you know. But aside from me.

I did believe it was literal, but you weren't going to make me doubt anything by talking about the history of the book of Mormon. I kind of, I kind of care.

But then I kind of didn't.

As well, and you see a lot of latter-day Saints now like talking about the book of Abraham hi Reagan it's like yeah that's not what he translated from, but you know he used it he still received revelation. You know it's like that that kind of reasoning. I think I could've gotten away using that kind of reasoning as a latter-day St. to I really cared a lot more about the content in the book and if you can show me contradictions in the in the doctrine and theology that would've gotten my attention a lot more than the historicity of block the sense that this is what you would say just just knowing you and different conversations we had both online and in person on the phone so the reason I can tease that out is because you know I've I've been charged with not being overly critical from from as historical standpoint of the reality of scriptural texts when I have conversations latter-day Saints and they did every leveraged position where I accept you know the Bible is the infallible word of God and distressing position and that we come to that position from two different approaches to the obvious scriptural texts and sizes, the tease that out because I think it's an interesting point. So Matthew about you have to have your new of the other scriptural text changes you with your transition manager and figured out saying that hanging a socket just hold my mind it's only ways is just it's interesting to talk to guys with similar backgrounds but it made me think of thinkers after my morning and experience I was I was trying to like the a born again Mormon. You know, like a born-again Christian in Mormonism has try to make it work.

I try to go the liberal route of like, well, you know, you can consider this email, metaphorical or figurative, and I considered also going to the community of Christ route because they have kind of admitted in a like, yeah, the book of Abraham. You know it's not really historical summary of accurate translation in a community of Christ can like rejecting a lot of the problems I had in as a questioning latter-day St. also rejected works for the dead, Karis works with the dating of the Temple and the whole issue of God except the Trinity officially so I bought two books notes want to briefly talk about the one called Millie and Scott Scripture. The owners called the book of Mormon's witness to its first readers about those two books and I was reading them on a flight to Vegas because I had a conference where I was presenting some research and I remember reading the millions cause Scripture and is interesting because I used in a modern typical secular biblical research and scholarship really talk about well you know there's always errors in the Bible and you know a lot of people think that this parcel historical this parcel historical, but they still consider it inspired in each group has each group around the world has her own books of Scripture into the book of Mormon.

It's our book. You know it's it's not perfect but it's our book and it's inspired but it's not entirely historically accurate.

We can glean interesting teachings from it and I was like okay that's interesting.

And then I went to read his other book. The book of Mormon's witnesses to its first readers and it was like the exact opposite message was like talking about first-hand accounts from early Mormons reading it think this is the inspired word of God.

No errors. It's exactly what God told us is what happened in the Americas to these ancient peoples and my mind is blown. I was like I bought this from the same bookstore and they're completely antithetical to the same author. When known.

At the same author but yet because if you go to the to their website and I can go by category that would buy Scripture so those Wednesday no. It sounded like okay, maybe this will help me get my testimony of the book of Mormon or something or help me reconcile these things. But it's like it did the opposite. I was like, it just made the contradiction so much clearer and I see that so often with latter-day Saints of some go as you said, some go the route of well it's allegorical arts figurative is meant to teach us something useful something spiritual in another say well it happened. It was a real historical event that happened in that speaking of the traditional route the traditional theology is that it was a real thing that happened I could reconcile it. That's one thing that pushed me further out of the restoration of the E sequestration is a whole is already kind of leaning away from the mainstream of gastric torts.

Can you Christ in us that Mike how do you reconcile that this is impossible so you back your question going back to the book of Mormon. I saw I mentioned prior to when we started that there were a lot of scriptures in the book of Mormon allow passage of Scripture, the book of spoke to my soul.

That really helped me in times of need and times where you are struggling with sin are struggling with doubts or hopelessness. Things like that and as a the sternest thing Bible more closely.

I realize that Hades passages that that meant so much to me and make it so hard for me to give the book of Mormon there almost taken straight out of the Bible.

So two passages that I wanted to bring upper Roman seven and you compare that to signify for so signify for his when he finds writing. He says Bonnie sit upon these right things in my soul and many of the scripters which are engraved upon them, my soul, delighted Scripture is in the heart ponder them for 16 mile my sold life and the things of the Lord for 17 Nephi's is a wretched man that I am gay. My hearts are with because my flesh, my soul agreement because of my iniquities so I say Nephi in air quotes. Of course, and that that really spoke to me because I always felt like yeah I love God I love his word.

I love his law. I can't keep it. I'm not good enough. I keep struggling when I keep messing up so seeing that can give me hope. But then I realized that's almost like verbatim Roman seven from Paul Roman seven versus 21 to 25 says I find it to be a law that when I want to do right evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my interbeing but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. So when I read that I was like that's almost like completely verbatim what the book Mormon said he knows is almost like a commentary on what the Bible said so you know the things that were not as with just one example where it was hard for me to give the bookmark is what it meant to me personally and I saw while the Bible that's picking from the Bible. Much so I see I see a lot of the book of Mormon parallels as kind of like Joseph Smith while I will go into who I think the book of Mormon. That's a huge topic and I'm I myself only worry about that much. Whoever wrote the book of Mormon seems to have been well-versed in a lot of these biblical texts quotes and references them commentates them or restates the flask and how I see with the book on is announcing that it entirely trash that theirs is not worth anything at all. It's worth reading, and I would say it's worth reading as much as reading the Quran or other books because there are glints of truth. You could find in them at the same time I don't see it as God met by that I make this comparisons you know I this one of the things that kinda started me on my questioning with the book of Mormon is is when I was on my mission. I had a goal that I set for myself that I would reach the standard works during the two years and I was on my mission, and by the time I was in my last area, and read through everything except the New Testament so I can quickly started with just a few months left on my mission carrying around with new a little pocket New Testament – I got carried the reluctant military versions of of the LDS scriptural works absently were small pocket-sized night.

I carried them around a little cover with because they were they were like, and I would out that little pocket New Testament start reading.

If we were on the bus traveling to and from appointments and I started to as you did recognize that. Wait a minute, there's a lot of New Testament passages that are either alluded you were quoted verbatim within the book of Mormon and not just within the book of Mormon, but within the portions of the book of Mormon that from a historical perspective were supposed to have taken place before the New Testament, and of course Lehigh and his family were supposed to have left Jerusalem. You know during the time of Jeremiah the prophet, and in the Babylonian marketing director for the Babylonian captivity. You know, so please sixth century BC and note I started to have this kind of nagging question in my mind why why are there these passages that are verbatim New Testament passages that were supposedly written by Asian-American prophets in the Americas on metal plates.

How in the world with those Asian-American prophets of have known to write verbatim New Testament passages before the New Testament itself was written amendment. Of course I know of have this conversation with Latter Day Saints and there are those who will defend and say that all will know God inspired the writers of the book of Mormon to know right in the exact same way that that the New Testament writers would later be inspired to write and at that explanation is never never held water formally that experience. My mission just was, like the beginning of of the end for me with the book of Mormon delight lasted a long time after that within the LDS church, but we really had any argument from admission 1999 and by 2001 I was pretty convinced that the book of Mormon wasn't a historical record of ancient inhabitants of the American continents, I did not Duggan really heavily to a farm signal foundation for research and Mormon studies was now the Maxwell Institute in their publications, which back in the day, really, really tried to do now approach the book of Mormon from from a historical perspective and places on the Internet and Asian-American contacts to the other writings just there there there was that the relevant direct evidence of the books you know of related scholars of the one you presented various abuses of how the Mormon community is as plausibly an ancient document and dividend bid and convinced me so the next nine years. From there on, until we left was was really me trying to turn be a little Mormon and figure out how how I could remain without a without Orthodox view of the book of Mormon and mad Michael you mentioned another that there Latter Day Saints today will say was the whole thing is as metaphor and I'm with you on that I could never fully embrace that silly within those nine years.

I was trying to figure out like is there is there a way that it's plausibly ancient and I just just couldn't get couldn't get there with all the studying I did so by the time we left in 2010 that I didn't believe that the LDS canon was a reliable source of truth anymore, unless one is a really quick I think it's great that you mentioned that you will read the apologist LDS apologist responsibilities criticisms that they were committing to you because so many times when you bring up these these criticisms. A lot of times places will brush them off as like well he's been answered before in our apologist have been dealing with them for decades, but it's like I just about everybody just read what they say and think about a critically do not do the arguments make sense.

Are they consistent with the evidence. Are they logically consistent because just because you have a response to something, doesn't mean that it's a good response times you know, like when I was questioning I do have a question like, well, much of this is otherwise sometimes you know you you I would read the articles and sometimes I would just look at the fair website and I would see that all have a response to it.

Okay, I'm good. Somebody's already looked at this and I trust them that they've answered it accordingly was until I actually read the responses and found wow. I don't feel like this reasoning is consistent or convincing at all in a so that's really important is critically assessing what the responses, instead of just kind like reading it and saying well I don't understand it, but they've answered it so okay, I'll believe you know I died, and I definitely made the attempt to try to read the best the best answers like Univac, Benji Nibley was still very much respected as as an apologist for the LDS faith in, and I find nothing.

If anybody has something to say that that could convince me that in commencement of the book of Mormon is named as an actual engine taxed I would be him know that I and I wasn't attending BYU, but she did.

She did have published by Farms the transgressive of the course that she taught at BYU on on the book of Mormon site, but I still have those four volumes on my shelf looking at them right now that I've read through and the book which is which is a very large scholarly tone was was the book of Mormon authorship revisited, which is a collection of papers by various BYU scholars approaching the book of Mormon from various vantage points. With regard to authorship and historicity. And I don't have that book anymore related to a missionary who was in the area when I was the warmest leader here… That's another one that I read and that's that's one that if I recall correctly, it was originally published and updated in the 90s and I had the updated version revisited version so I know I definitely tried to try to take a look at the best of what what LDS scholarship had to offer. In that regard. I didn't just go off on my own assumptions of the out of podcast please visit the out of rightness podcast Facebook. Feel free to send us a message than with comments or questions, send a message of appreciated page align. We also have an out of rightness, and others. As we discussed the past episode can also send this out of rightness right to the out of rightness podcast on podcasts cast box cast cast the spot of science teacher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it certainly is likely surveyed also connect with Michael the just wind up lungs and sometimes Poland Matthew as well. Music for the out of rightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com. Stay bright fireflies to show in the daily kind of man is a man he may even a man