What About SCRIPTURE? Part 3

Your right and transition attempted to jettison the Bible to buy why do you ultimately didn't reject the Bible or the concept of the word of God. So when I was having, Michelle breaking moment. I didn't really know what was going on for couple weeks. I was like Miami atheist you know what was going on with my life. This really answer. I just kinda like after the dust settled I thought Mike okay calm down. Know what your emotions chill out and I will think about it so I can remember being in my bedroom. Just thinking about and I'm like okay well you know you can just deny God altogether because think of all these times reflect God's touch touch my life or been in my life and so I was like okay what I mean. There's just too much of the world just too much evidence of God's existence. I can't deny that something okay will then once my foundation. One might make you rely on and always consider the Bible is like you know it's strange because he knows letter to St. it's like I doubted the church in a sense, but it was always like okay if this doesn't work out, you know, like I have a parachute I have like I got Plan B a safety plan where it's like at least I know that Jesus lives. I may change my views about Jesus but I just feel like there's just this part of Mike being that felt imperfect and I needed a Savior. You know I need Jesus my Savior and no way to really know that Jesus is from the Bible and also I kind of, I kind of saw that as a parachute case I fell off a building or cliff that would be my safety plan so I can release rely on that figure things out there and I don't think it was like based on purely logic. I think it was just like in my soul.

I just kinda felt like this Scripture spoke to me that that had to have a foundation of God speaking to us because if we don't have objective revelation. Then, anything goes. Really, you can kinda just make up any religion you want. So we need some kind of objective standard, and maybe it was also due to like on a mission or elsewhere where Protestants or evangelicals planet season mean the kind of may be germinated over time, led to that conclusion. But knowing that there was summertime rock where I seriously was like okay I'm in a ditch the Bible and then had to gain that feedback is always telling okay I'll start reading this, I'll see where it takes us, the mentality that I had Michael writes about my Michelle grow.

I'd already fallen in love with the Bible just because of the way that God works with me.

You know I became really value a doctrine specific Dr. Jesus imputation and the Bible was very much responsible for opening my eyes that Dr. actually got to the point where I valued that the gospel to the hospital more than I was valuing the church and I was really excited about it and by the time the shop broke. I was definitely thinking for a little bit and maybe maybe atheism is the way to go because I'm just sick and tired of being told when we go to church and quit calling to have just everything I just HOLD in my life from a man-made religion like I can be I can be free.

You know, I think the sky was viewing it for a minute and some of us I was considering jettisoning a belief in God but I don't think the thought to the Bible ever entered my mind so I don't think I will and lasted very long.

As an atheist. If I had gone down that route, but then you are suggesting about experiences that I had earlier on Monday, 15 years before the shelf breaking where I'm convinced that the Jesus reached out to me and made himself known to me in small ways.

I just realize I can so I could betray God, and know this was his fault and and if I went down that road. There wasn't freedom there. Images can be more spiraling into chaos and less control of my life and not having anything firm to stand on just this can go down that road and you know the Bible is definitely just something for me not to hold onto and especially with all the crazy stuff going on in my life, and he knows about it. Go through divorce and and lose my house and have to move in all this other crazy stuff and just something that I needed in my life at that point was to be able to be stable in some way and really the gospel and the Bible was all I had so yeah just and really crossed my mind for too long since you both for one use in their they did cross my mind so interesting I mentioned earlier that it was like 2001 when I kind of reached a conclusion about the book of Mormon wasn't a historical text within a continued good to remain active in the healthiest ranching servant callings try to figure out how I fit. There is no plan to hold the belief that the book of Mormon is historical if I believe that it's some type of scriptural production that that is still in some sense expired by God and what is that look like in and got into you know it's kind of interesting that the various levels of the of study, go through as you mentioned your exit from the book of Mormon historicity to studying Mormon history and more deeply on Joseph Smith and so is probably like 2007, I concluded early intensive study of Mormon history and doctrine that completes America's ally coincides with the birth of our youngest daughter Angela had complications with previous pregnancies. We had two miscarriages and so no early generalist was very cautious.

Anytime there was something, pointing to a competition with pregnancy and so there was one time that would been sent to the hospital and Angela was sleeping and I was sitting there reading. Rough Stone rolling by Richard bushman voting on the minor, major biography of Joseph Smith and Ashley that he or she come to give a presentation of the Firesign LDS stake that I had gone to that and got him to sign my book and I told him you know that it was because of him in Eugene and one that I'm still not in this church, and above them, or, more more liberal thinking Latter Day Saints and he told me all that she had known Eugene England personally evident on my stomach so that we are pleased them to share their wasn't in a hospital observation reading. Rough Stone rolling and praying for the well-being of my wife and soon to be born daughter and at some point during my reading that day it hit me that I no longer believe Joseph didn't view it was reliable and I was left with the, what now question and while I continue to read rest of rolling it took me only half a year or more. I started reading formative Mormon and evangelical conversation books like how why the divide by credit card Blumberg student Robinson and then bridging the divide by Robert Miller and Greg Johnson and claim in Christ by Robert Millet and Gerald McDermott. There were these these authors would know one LDS one evangelical would have kind of a conversation and I think how wide the divide was was like transcripts of presentations that Blumberg and Robinson are many movies bridging the divide was transcripts that Millet and Greg Johnson would do and on the road. It Christian churches in those books: quote no Mormon and evangelical dialogue type books really helped me to understand the popular level differences between how evangelicals and Latter Day Saints approach Scripture, but it was still a question in my mind whether the Bible was a trustworthy source of truth that some of that stems from know we talked about earlier when Kenneth set up this hierarchy in your mind right that the Bible is flawed.

So deal, the Scriptures are more trustworthy and more reliable sources of doctrine for you is as a visibly Latter Day Saints and so with that in mind when that was the obvious Scripture still delivered to have in your mind will.

The Bible is flawed. So I remember sitting and thinking. One day the know is the Bible just rely now on and and Millie had to wrestle with that question in my mind and half-price books became like my favorite bookstore adjective several books there that were kind of important to me informing you know my understanding of Christianity, sacred literature, in contrast about Mormonism one that I want to talk about little bit is that the Oxford illustrated history of the Bible about that and started reading through it. Towards the end of my time in the of this church unit covers that the writing transmission translation and canonization of the text of the Bible throughout its history and I learned a lot through that book. And again, what really stood out to me is that the Bible can be studied as a historical text is a manuscript tradition of this textual criticism can be studied and of course it can be studied in a critical and unbelieving way.

But those tools the scholarly tools can be applied to it effectively because it has a history and it struck me as I was reading through that book, especially that Mormon doesn't have that textual history Really effectively apply those scholarly tools to it though. The national Institute is trying now you just can't. "You can't turn anywhere to find no manuscript in the original language that you could look to see you know what what Nephi really meant by acts.

It's not there so that that really kind of informs my understanding of of of Christian scholarship around the Bible and it really fascinated me so that that is brought to mind something I wanted to mention is that BYU I do remember the author's name.

Maybe I should just google it, but this Redbook is now selling a new translation of the New Testament. I haven't read it myself. Okay, so the New Testament translation for Latter Day Saints and it's by Thomas Wayman and I think this yet is a religious study center.

I think it BYU and I have read it personally, but Dr. White, Dr. James White is a Christian apologist.

He talked about on his program. What time any. He said he had gone through extensively. He reads fluently's REIT speaks in a biblical Greek biblical Hebrew and easy went there and he says I he found no problems with it, but this translation in terms of comparing that to the original text so it seems like this New Testament from Thomas Wayman and sold by the church. It goes back to the biblical scholarship you know what what Christians are the same for every guy go back to the difficult texts to the manuscript evidence and it seems like that's what they're doing now. But when you compare that to LDS doctrine and the changes that Joseph Smith made in his translation. It's like in a totally different things in order. John one. He Dr. Weyrich on one on air and it sounds like you're just reading in all the English standard version or something so I don't understand this new direction it's going on because it sounds like it's just going opposite to what church is important in a direction where it's like it would lead Latter Day Saints out of the church so is the Bible reliable and how did you come to that conclusion that the first well I kind of looked at it in a combined piece oppositional and apologetic evidential getaway.

I can imagine how just in a personal level you know if there is a God. It just made sense to me that you can't know anything unless God is a reliable source of information and if God is truthful God, and it just seemed to me that we have to have an objective standard of truth of Revelation from God because otherwise we could know anything about God. And maybe that goes back to my LDS upbringing because I was one point that in the lectures on faith that was really driven home.

It says that we can know God without Revelation and I still agree with that. We can know God. If there's a Revelation working poorly, from God.

We don't know little, so we so positionally. I cannot believe like okay you have to have a standard and evidentially you rushed on the textual evidence the manuscript transmission is Latter Day Saints. I was kind of we had this idea, and this is also something that Biederman kind of teaches and some of his talks, which is completely fallacious at this idea.

Okay, imagine your mind. The original copies of the Bible written down. Will they copy them and give them to someone else and that they copy given to someone else and they copy to give to someone else and so all we have is earliest copies of copies of copies.

We don't have the originals and so you can have in this mind like he had like a game of telephone where you can really trust it because you know once you get to the fourth of a person who knows if that's what the originals and it surprises me now that environment Canada still uses that argument because we know that it was not a control plan of transmission. It was something that was copied and sent out everywhere so it was like one person made a copy and in that person made a copy and got rid of the original copy. It was like one person make several copies and give to other people. They made several copies, and gave it to other people and it went all throughout the Roman Empire that entire region, so just just understanding textual criticism and textual transmission transmission being the copying and passing down of manuscripts and through families seeking because he liked the genealogy of the manuscripts going back just realizing that understanding that saying okay yeah does make sense that they would get rid of your earlier copies and why would you have a single transmission line you know there was, there is no such thing. Anything close to like you would see with the Pope in Rome convulses in today and it wasn't that like strict control of the word of God. It was given up everywhere.

That along with some so I had a thought elastic.

Just the fact that we we have texts that go all the way back to at the earliest. The second early second century B-52 I think. Currently, p53 was the oldest one. It dates back to about one 2580.

That doesn't sound too remarkable, but when you consider the fact that it's of the gospel of John and were most cars probably predict that the gospel John was written around or sometime after the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem so I was 7080 it's within about 5060 years of the gospel John being written. We have this papyrus fragment of John chapter 18 and when you compare that doesn't sound like will 50 years and we can change that right but the thing is, is when compared to other works of antiquity.

Sometimes there are hundreds of years before we have any copies of that that writing will any of the Iliad and I need these great ancient works of literature. We there's hundreds of years of pass by so you know some of those copies are they date back to the six or seven century and the errors that were written in the first century or earlier and you know we might have hundred 200 300 copies of certain works, whereas with Scripture of the New Testament you have close to about 5700 and Greek alone and in other translations you've got Latin you got the Syriac, you got the about Herrick.

I think you got all these differently is not that amounts to over 15, 20,000 copies that we can date back in textual critics and scholars are looking back and seeing how they all connect to each other. There's a new method called the CBM coherent LC BGM coherence-based genealogical method using computer methods to kind of tired and see how each text relates to the other. We just have as is Daniel Wallace says Jesus is a scholar to criticism. He says we have an embarrassment of riches. We just have so it's just like a mountain of evidence for the New Testament is just incredible. I saw video where they were saying.

Here's there comparing a text or manuscript to a copy and they were saying well you know in this this old ancient text. We got 20 or 30 of us, we got hundred and when he piled on a huge amount of coffee beans for the New Testament. It was just as my blog is traversing that list I can believe it.

So much evidence that in everything else in it and we also have early church fathers quotations from them. Where we can tie that into our management evidence in begin we can there still some textile variant issues, but they're very minor, have a huge agreement. Most the errors. You can our spelling changes Re: Nvidia letter was swapped with another one that's over 90% of the changes are in between manuscripts is just minor errors that are easily tracked, so he needs tiles together assist like the Bibles are so reliable and lasting on dimension is while varmint has made a career on trying to place doubt in the Bible is interesting is in his book misquoting Jesus where he makes second a telephone argument like we don't have the original copies you have copies of copies COPIES of copies copies he actually wrote an appendix in a later printing. He said that yeah basically what we have today. That's what the New Testament was. That's what they really wrote and he sees it in and in a debate. He said the New Testament is the most reliable text of antiquity, bar none. No comparison. Nothing else compares and just hearing him say that when he so quoted so often by OBS and others to try to put down the New Testament.

He says no, it's the most reliable text. An activity that is mind blowing. To counter this contrast from my God. Jesus, when this this is really a national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teaching. The name of our podcast out of brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without us out of brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around scholars you have studied through a lot of the same surveys sounds like that have helped us to do have a have a trust in the Bible is reliable when I when I was first Paltz of the LDS church.

I was. I remember that was the Mormon story is probably more mysteries Facebook group and I hiked became acquainted with the softness scholar studied under Berman remembers his PhD advisor and studied New Testament University of North Carolina where Herman taught at the time of it is still there but the assigned identity time. I started reading sermon books and help because this this obvious columns, and influence on me and on trying to understand at the time was the Bible reliable and know that I started selling some of the other know, faithful Christian testicle scholars and then realized that some of the some of the arguments that Herman makes is as you mentioned, she kind of walks back from them in the footnotes. So I started to pay close attention to what he was saying, not just in the body of the text, but the minute the footnotes and endnotes students choose books but all this,, my answer this question and Michael and I will go to you so is the Bible reliable, come to that conclusion. I I reached the conclusion that yes, it is but I didn't come to that conclusion. Kind of in a Strictly Doctrinal Way, Jim into the side door.

As I mentioned earlier so in early 2008, I was finishing up my last semester of of a business degree in a small Roman Catholic college near where I live and one of the requirements was to take a religion class before you know it took to qualify for graduation because it was a Catholic school, so I took an introduction to the New Testament course because the course description indicated that it would be a study of the New Testament by application of the historical method and knowing where no because nowhere is somewhere was in the book of Mormon at the time. You know that really kind of interested me and the studying that I've done like the Oxford history of the Bible are illustrated history of the Bible and them so as part of the course. Hard to read the New Testament and and also know the course textbook was was by Vincent Brannick. Understanding the New Testament and yet he touched on some things that I've heard of before. From like LDS Institute manuals on the New Testament, but I'd largely brushed over them because the New Testament wasn't at that time in my mind the Keystone text of my faith tradition so and it is and as it was apparent as I thought about you like. Just imagine that right there I was claiming to be a Mormon, yes, but not just Mormon, a Christian and I didn't hold in my mind.

The New Testament is the foundational text of my faith struck me as I was as I was preparing for this, but Brannick taxed, covered the historical background and commentary for each book of the New Testament. She covered topics like authorship, questions the synoptic problem. The Q source. Another text critical approaches to the New Testament as you noted Matthew with with Herman. You know some of those symbols topics can cause Christians to doubt the formula had the opposite effect. Because of where I was coming from out of faith tradition that basically required you to have no just basically deistic is a base humanistic approach to the book of Mormon writers. There's no textual or manuscript evidence for the book of Mormon. The plates aren't extant. You know they were to return to heaven by an angel's you can study that we can study the original languages all you have is this book that was before to the world. In 1830 and so coming to a study of the New Testament that that really looked at it from a critical scholarly perspective and rely again you realizing again as I had another in other studies as well that you can study the Bible from a historical standpoint and holds up really really allow me to connect come in the side door to the Bible as reliable as as cesspools of the Bible is reliable. It's a reliable witness of Jesus is the son of God Jesus has a high view of the Bible you know, therefore, noted Jesus is God and God is infallible, therefore the Bible is infallible. That is, that a classical approach to the logical syllogism syllogism so that's kinda how I came to the view that the Bible is reliable.

What about you Michael. I Bible is reliable, but I was on my mission and I was just him talking to evangelical guy debated me to my companion for three hours just continually use the Bible is his passion just caught me on fire and you know, if planted a seed in the just continually grow up until my faith crisis and just, you know, because not doubt Bible but once the was a kind of reached the conclusion that Mormonism was not true here I came I came to this conclusion had a different come to you because I went from the inside out. Just based on on the content and on the doctrine of the Bible you know I was already convinced that it was completely reliable.

For instance, I would look at the Mormon in the book of Mormon. It says that it was an abomination to the Lord that David had always wives and concubines within the reduction comments he talks about the exact same instant. And it says you will be given to him by me and you know it's it's totally fine and it's like okay you're talking of the exact same instant. The same the same thing but you got to complete contradictory statement in the Bible. My fountain was just a symphony like in perfect harmony. Once I started to really understand you as a letter to St. I thought that had a lot of different contradictory statements in there, especially when it came to faith and works. Once I learned about double dictation and how Christ exchanged his exchanges, his righteousness, for our sin and and how sanctification plays into that and realize that there really is no contradiction in the Bible and all that.

It's all telling the same story and you can see that story woven throughout the entire Bible from different authors talking about different things it still there like one. The tax that I used to throw Christians all the time was in James chapter 2 grandsons Abraham was justified when he offered his son on the alternative right so it is our works that justified Madison as is looking at this the other day and the next person's muscles fulfill no description which says Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him.

He was imputed to him for righteousness and signal and go back to that verse.

I'll be back in Genesis before Isaac is born and and Abraham is counted righteous without sacrificing his son on the altar and so when he realizes that Abraham's justification are Abraham's salvation is not justified by his obedience and disobedience is justified by his salvation and and I see that all over the place. Another spot in James 29 James says you might remember this verse says this if you convince the center of nerves remains the same soul from death, Sam's and when I was a letter saying I kind of need that is like our money, my own standby. God forgive me for some of the bad things I've done using a look the other way because I saved somebody but no understanding the gospel looks like, okay, like God has actually covered my sins with the robe of righteousness and hazy to do the same thing for Sen. that accepts him and has just this is woven throughout all the Scriptures so I can conclusion that the Bible is reliable and the message is is harmonious throughout the Old Testament all the way New Testament is one gospel.

We have contradictions all over the place.

Then I'm able to see you guys are talking about jealousy all the time on Facebook with over this city was discovered was talked about in the Old Testament and here is the tomb of this king. The Bible talks about. There's lots of evidence and you see and I just don't think the same ways as the home where the evidence is what kinda makes me accepted this, a side note for me. I don't pay like nuts. I do like knowing that the end of this.

Is there you know I would feel very flustered if it wasn't there because it would just trigger man remind you of Mormon, but yes basically how I came to the podcast. Please visit the brightness podcast Facebook. Feel free to send us a message than with comments or questions, send a message of the pain appreciated the page life. We also have and how to frame his face and others. As we discussed past episodes can also send this brightness ascribed to the other brightness podcast on podcasts cast box Google cast cast the spot of science teacher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel.

If you like it certainly is likely surveyed also connect with Michael just lined up blogs and sometimes Poland method you as well. Music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com. Stay bright fireflies to show the kind that you and may and he may and one a will and and