Matthew's Story Part 2

Your answering and fishing because you talking about why morning perspective this morning and argue against saying from what I understand the pipe pallet is over so against Mormonism.

Any Mormonism has to be false and you know how to raise the top you know Calvinism, essentially Satan's plan preexistence to all mankind and really want to know how you credit got a point that is a really great theological journey to take. Yeah I send it to others but it's worth mentioning here.

I think there in my mind. There are very few systems. If not, any systems that are as man centered and free will centered and very much centered than Mormonism and there is no other system that I know of. That's more God centered in terms of in terms of salvation being completely God's incomplete God control them than talented. So it's like this far opposite. If you can get and I will try to disprove what Jimbo is teaching the Bible John six and I will are Ephesians 1 Romans 89 I listed as podcast Paul Longmire gave Bible credit is proven and I'm like well I don't know Greeks amenities wrong with the Greek translation is something so I would go to his chat room a few times. I talk to people in the room there and they would say that this is the word where it says to be drawn in all it says is an effectual drawing of the drawing that can avoids how you do it that knowledge of the Greek scholar, I can know everything and I can't do partial differential equations, and learn Greek.

At the same time I could see what CFO but but just the way that James might just described it just had to make sense when you read Ephesians 2 and it says it is by grace you have been saved and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Since 20s.

When he would describe her home field is basically saying like it's either all of God, or some combination of Manning God. And when I read when I read a passage in Ephesians 2 verses. It's the gift of God I was only to accept it yet, but my mind I was like okay I bring absolutely nothing to the table if it's a gift it's a gift as to be completely the work of God.

And so if I had anything to that like what works, or even even my choice to accept it back to me. You know a gift is a gift and it doesn't require me to accept it or not, you know, I either take it or it's not given at all.

So I just seen it just made sense that like logical sense to me. The more I heard about it and read the Scriptures. It just made sense to me to ask if it's if it's not Mormonism then like I want to take that passage seriously. Ephesians 2 has to be all God so Calvinism is also called monetarism motto floor model meeting one so margin is just the idea that salvation is completely of God of his choice and of his work, so I really just gravitated toward that idea.

I was willing to accept it yet, but I was like in my mind as I qualify become Christian.

You know, I would probably want to become Calvinist because it just it can like it made internal sensing I could make like a Punic. The Venn diagram in your brain. It's like if it's this on the left I'll circle a and not make sense. But if you take the presuppositions for circle B than Pemex completely sense internally, so I was, just attracted to the logical consistency of communism. So I yet was kind of like being like from out how that phrase go out of the fire into the frying pan, you know, if you like FOI going from one extreme to the other, but yes, I really enjoyed the way that James White teaches. I think he thinks a lot like I do enough courses on a whole different level, but I think he thinks logically through things like I like I do and so that really resonated with me the way he taught and that I'm started watching other reform teachers like RC Sproul, Carter is not technically reformed them.

I want to get into that whole debate with his Calvinists and eight I think is a very solid preacher of the word, so I just I just gravitated towards these preachers and I just hope they were really consistent and I was always testing what they said by the Bible on you gets Romans eight, nine, and it just made a lot of sense what they're teaching so that's my introduction to theology that, no, I don't really feel like I went through like a Leica synergist haze or Outlook and I hesitate to use were Arminian because I know some people like that turn a real estate in all non-Calvinist. I guess not. Calvinist Christian protozoa, that I feel a kind of felt like I was mostly Mormonism would like.

I know a few caveats. Urinary like kinda like still Mormon going to church doing the calling as a primary teacher but is looking kind of into this Trinity thinks maybe obscure Trinitarian Mormon. I don't know how that would work, but it on my mind like no office ticket by Uriel go by your own God's will see what happens. So as I would be reading James White's books on the way to church to my LDS chapel yacht like the forgotten Trinity and something that is my first book that I read of his. So yes, this was introduced, but I wasn't totally all and you know I could.

It was like a logical consistency in my brain that I could see but I don't feel like I personally grasp onto it quite yet know for several months when I was still not trying to trying to make myself feel Mormon beginning of the go go back to this church but I remember listening to him talk about Sophia Daigle faith alone. One of the pillars of the Reformation and I will now is one of the threads I wasn't willing to accept you know Billy read the Bible. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments James James to talk about faith without works is dead, so I still I saw this idea like I still get it and I don't I don't I don't know to become righteous, just by fate, like II understand Calvinist or or even just the Christian understanding that it's a gift like I get that but but it can't just be by fate now has to you have to contribute something to what you believe in some ways less, why still state of the Eskimo just made sense to me and I like the whole idea of priesthood keys and things like that so II just continue to listen to podcasts and going to church and reading and I was reading for his book of the God who justifies. Really excellent text and he goes through the chapters in Romans with Abraham and how he is justified before God's of her street purse three chapters in Romans. It talks about how everyone is held accountable for God.

There is, there will be no person who can settle for God completely innocent at the judgment day were given the light of creation were given the knowledge of God exists in our hearts.

According to Romans one Romans to talk about how we have the work of the law on our hearts so even our consciences condemn us because they witnessed was that there is a crop there is a God, there is a creator to whom we are accountable in Romans three continues on with that, like it says that basically everybody stands condemned.

There is none that that seeks after God is non-seeks righteousness, and all also sort of the glory of God. So reading that in the perfectionist yelled filling the guilt of sin, life does. I agree with that is that yes this make sense and so if you really understand that he really understand that it doesn't matter what works you do, there's no works.

You can do that will make you righteous if you really understand Romans 123 there's all our best works could possibly do is just add on to the condemnation that we already have is: sons of Adam and so the negative Romans foreign you know I just think the way that Paul wrote this is so beautiful. He's just so logical, he sets up the problem.

The problem is were sinners were Dennison, what's the solution. Well, let's look at a case study in acute like a lawyer listed a case study will see how someone else was justified or found righteous before God cycles Abraham.

It says he quotes Genesis 15 Emily versus Abraham believed God, and was credited to him as righteousness.

And I'd heard the spray that her justification by faith that heard the doctrine of justification by faith alone is enough of James White's programs and debates and other Christian leaders in other books I bought online hide. I heard it, but it wasn't until I read that part in his book and and and I was going along. In Romans one through four by myself in the Bible where I like it clicked like it just made sense and I was standing waiting for my bus to go to the LDS chapel is popular January February 27 where he finally like it made sense like okay nothing I do is get up you anything form like trying to work hard to please God.

My workflow my ordinances. Nothing. None of that does anything to bring me closer to God. I have to trust completely in God to save like it's his faith alone is saving and so then I thought back to my conversion and I think I already done that.

So if you asked me when I was saved.

I believe that was 216 in the summer because I went to God with an empty hand of faith. I hope I knew I didn't have anything to offer God. I was trusting in Christ alone in his finished work to Satan.

Even if I was still kind of struggling to comprehend all of that theologically my head.

I feel like that's that was the gift that God gave us the gift of faith and repentance and so at the moment Los Angeles require. I just knew I was like you know I have to make a choice. The Bible says in Romans with report says it, I'm justified.

I'm declared righteous undeclared forgiven my send him out on declared righteous before God through faith alone and in districts is the opposite.

I have to receive baptism have received confirmation through go to the temple and I'd already been in the temple and don't always ordinances already but I'm also going to do my good works. I gotta go every week and I see the sacrament be a ticket" were believed to be forgiven my sins every week I gotta do all the stuff to be righteous in the oldest church in the Bible says I am righteous right now. Through my faith in Christ and in Christ alone. So I'm have to make a choice and not.

I remember liking my mind imagining two roads. One path is the path of the Bible and the path is the path of the discharge and justice teachings and I was I was so scared to leave the other district because I was my whole life. I dedicate so much time and energy in an effort just prayer in the LDS church and I knew that MAKE a choice and so I thought myself well by me to stand before God at the judgment, and he says I was wrong that I'd made the wrong choice because I went with the Bible and not because of Joseph Smith in when I did choose the church to be specializes if he condemns me because I chose the wrong path and I'm to feel confident saying okay will if I'm wrong. The Bible is wrong with me. So that's where I stood I was like I gotta have this tentative truth. This is what got me through the past few months is the Bible is so that's what I mean about my trust in these words right here and I was so clear to me that teaching of soul file from just Romans one through five and Romans 51 says that having been justified by God. We now have peace with God and I've it just made sense because when I thought back to my conversion experience I had this piece that I never had before. I had for my entire life I had this hunger for righteousness is this thirsting for this this call this piece and I never attain it.

It's like having an incredible first but only having a drop or two of water and it never quite quench my thirst and no one had that experience of the like that was what I wanted like assisted a delusion of this life bringing water that I always wanted and so it just it just made sense to me and it was funny. As you know afterward. Your startling will be more about your history. I feel like Martin Luther and I had had the same experience. You know we were on this rat race. Our whole lives trying to do good works, trying to prove to God, our worthiness and Martin Luther said sometimes he hated God because he public just as God's justice just wrathful God was ready to condemn them at any minute and I felt like that a lot to I hope what sometimes God is my father and sometimes is my judge and he was testing me out so coming to this realization that we come to God through faith alone like Martin Luther you just visualize it. It's not what we do that makes us right on the mix is acceptable to them. It's what Christ did is what he accomplished that righteousness that he accomplished was credited to me, not by what I do.

Faith and so now after that experience I knew that I send still and I know that I knew that I wasn't perfect, but I wasn't constantly under the fear of being cast out of God's presence because of it. I knew that what I did was wrong and I would have to continue to try to repent and turn to God in faith, but is no longer under this this constant fear of being lost or being kicked out of the house as it were out of God's family, so it just made it just all clicked it just all made sense.

And then after on a bus ride to church. I was like okay like I just got a go through. This is got a tip to appeal this anymore so I stopped going. I really started to root continue to study theology and I wasn't. I wouldn't trying to give a fair shot to reform the nonreporting theology. No read various sources and things but I just kept coming back to work on theology just made so much sense that they keep talking about Calvinism, but you are the leader Calvinist soldier Hannah have to what would you say is the biggest thing that Mormons get wrong about Calvinism or misunderstand. I think the problem is they don't like the idea that some are chosen for salvation and some are not even human. Only eight they claim to trust that God knows everything. Whatever God does is right, of course you know of the Delius concept of God is part of the Christian triune God. But they just have a real problem with the idea God what you some and not others, and I struggled with that. When I was still of the essence.

Trying to work this out and try to debunk James Wyatt but it really has come down to our understanding of who God is and I'm not saying understand God completely.

Of course I've got a long way to go but we have to understand that God is just, whatever he does is just and righteous, and not only that, but he is sovereign, so he created the universe he created everything in it he has a purpose for everything we see that all throughout Scripture, with Joseph being sold by his brothers in the Egypt, he said, what you meant for evil God meant for good to see instances like that.

So where were the evil intentions of man were used for their evil intentions, but God had planned it for his greater purposes because Joseph being run Egypt you know he was he was able to do a lot of good and stable people. So God you suffered the purpose so I think that's totally comes down to is a just really they really have a distaste for the idea of God's sovereignty and choosing elect people for salvation because it seems it's understandable and I am not trying to discredit them and saying that that's such a dishonest or that they that they are in know that there just will not not intelligent because I understand understand I got what I went to the same process.

It just seemed unfair because what you some for salvation, and some not, but the problem with that is is that it's on a faulty assumption it's it's on the assumption that God owes us something that God has to treat everybody the same abilities unfair, but the promise that is is will Percival life is just not fair.

Hunting God makes some people read. She makes people poor and acceptable health is one healthy and that's up to God to decide he's the Potter with the clay and so for us to talk back to God and say you have to do things my way.

God, you, you have to do what I think you should do is not the correct way to see it so none of us deserve salvation if it were up to justice. We will all be sent to hell and I believe the Bible clearly teaches that in Romans five is as well: and Adam mail because of the sin of one came the condemnation upon many and so if we truly understand that we truly understand. I am not a good person on I don't deserve anything from God. If you truly accept that than the doctrine elect of unconditional election.

It makes more sense it, it demonstrates that God has a choice to choose who is saved. I said I don't go we don't want to turn this into an episode on Calvinism, but on the next largest. It does make sense to me when I read the Bible. It may not be something that I hired totally wish were true, you not like my sinful flesh.

I honestly wish I could save everybody but the same thing but then I realize that's not as God will that stuff the human flesh is flesh trying to say what I want is is better than what God wants. And so when I had that idea. I do remember I had to remind myself that I need to repent of that so I need to believe what God wants me to believe is on a cane understanding that God is in control, not then I have to distrust and trust what he does is right so my last question pans your answer to marijuana have met the terms of the what was the most often misunderstood by just about Calvinism and so I sincerely didn't know this church I attended a seminary Christian seminary and just got a Masters of Divinity degree in biblical studies and the school that I attended his students. I was a classic rearmament in their views and it's the church that I attend is this is also possibly rearmament interviews. Although it is tradition that the questions are smooth, belongs to others is an openness to various theological views within the Fellowship not long to so yes, unless it is the wishy-washy ability not important, but, what the focus is not numbered Fellowship over over theological differences in a podcast later on an episode on the board is really kind of the concept of us that were not completely aligned on on theological issues we are aligned on the core of the Christian fitted and discussing talk but I just want to know is on resistance and talk about her journey distorted thought it was interesting that, the first things that cause you to start questioning the obvious news was learning about the second anointing and the idea that there's a group of people who are selected for this is higher ordinance which guarantees heaven to the Pharisees the celestial team to them. So the highest heaven Mormon conception of God and transition into Calvinism, which in some ways has a similar view of of unelected people that are guaranteed salvation while others are not as hard as I was one of past your question about your view on like double predestination were reported on that question so that staff have a topic of debate, even amongst the horn pokes that when island for those who don't know or listing what I say. A lot of times we use reforming Calvinist and reformed theology, Calvinist theology, we can use it interchangeably, but it's not entirely the case. You could be a Calvinist and root beer.

If you're reformed then your of necessity Calvinist, but you can be Calvinist and not reformed so I like how all melons are hills, but not all hills and mountains that kind of thing so enters the debate so I is, simply, that the God has a sovereign decree that all things that happen in time for decreed by God unusual and the sky gets it's the debate of any collapse Arianism versus super labs Arianism, so let him my view is that whatever God is just and God ordained for the hall to happen for his purposes but at the same time as we were not compelled to Nepal. They were free to they were they were free to choose in a way that we are not free because we are born with this predilection to sin. We have this really have this inherent desire to want to send.

But Adam Niebuhr created without this kind of pressure so they were free from these these internal influences unit. This is the satellite lust of the flesh increase fall and they were dated have these desires so they have their own freedom and choice decided to rebel against God because they rebelled against God.

All humanity rebelled against God. As Adam is our federal head. That's an important part of her home theology and its pace on several Bible passages, including Romans five is ideal because Adam Helvey also fell so going back to the idea of double predestination. I do have to admit that God did decree that some would be saved and some would not be saved but it's not. But we willingly choose sin fire nature. We willingly decide to want to send. So we are our nature from birth, is to run headfirst towards hell if you can think of it that way and so and because God he is not forced to to to do anything to save any of us. He does not have to save us. He does so only by his choice, not like to according to his mercy and his grace and Ephesians 1 Paul speaking to diffusion saying that he has chosen us in Christ Jesus to the praise of his glory, to the praise of his grace of his glory and grace. So God chooses to save us, and elect people for his glory now for us and it's not based on our works, so that's a big difference between election in the home theology and the second anointing is like you said it is similar in the sense that there is like a select people, but the problem was is that in Mormonism.

It's a workspace system and so you have to earn your way to salvation, and why there was like a way out. If you were friends with the prophet, or if you were, you know, I mean like if you could have squeeze your way so there's like a way you could squeeze your way to heaven is how I sought but with with Calvinism, but with reformed theology. I'll see it that way because none of us deserves any blessing God and it's not up to me to decide who receives blessing God doesn't. That's up to God and so I don't deserve any blessing God and deserve to be saved. I did nothing to earn it. I am as much us and anybody else but I think in praise God that he did showing mercy and I possibly pray to God will show the same mercy to my family but I have to recognize that it's very possible that my family who were almost all latter-day Saints or agnostic or atheist, that God may not save them and I have to praise and glorify God regardless because he is worthy of praise, and is a really long answer to your question on a really tackled it as much us to not up early got to the point of what you're hoping but but yeah I believe everything happens, including the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the awaited that's part of God's plan. I appreciate your concerns too soon on shall not, turn a challenge she would have a gotcha moment or anything like that.

There is a mention of the disseminated that is classically terminated and so I received.

That's the type of education, although at the convention Michael phone call handling assignments on my professors. There are two who were long tenured eligibility professors there that I took most of my theology courses from both going to Princeton theological seminary and Seleucids Calvinists education in their there produces and so studying of it was very interested as I got to see them presents the Arminian you of salvation while also presented charitable way in a respectful way.

The colonists to do, which is not not at all what I expected coming out of Mormonism and ends the Michael noted the kind of strength, opposition to Calvinism among Latter Day Saints and denied. I myself tend to book of Mormon valid is kind of a financial Calvinists theological treatise wears hands but personally I've been one of the things that by the grace of God of hosts taught in seminary was that the room to the word of God for archaeology and spark knowledge and she did for which the word of God initial allowance to and so is unstudied the Bible and try to understand various theological position positions that exist within broader Christianity, I've definitely been challenged to take a harder look at reformed theology and. Only areas of it, but I still struggle with with with understanding Mundelein look through the limited by the laws of the discussed passages that still like John chapter 6 for LBS are kind of hard passages is interested in discussing my Google just asked just like John Sexton in opposition to what the text clearly receives to say but when I ask so you don't like what the passage seems to say how does it fit within LDS theology. I don't get answers and it's the best is one of the things that that the drives and Sue continued to look into the study so I'm not thankful that the part of the contest opportunity for Melissa to probe and ask questions so just just noted my question comes in and mess. Not enough in the sense of trying to turn the challenges because I'm not some I'm not married to Arminianism the Samaritan once… Since that is possible seminary. So at some point the sentences that were archaeology should conform to the word of God should be the basis of us. That's what the hustle and initiatives that understanding what were Gonzalez no salvation about other theological topics, so a level yet angry good etiquette.

The more I thought about it the more interactive with other Christians you know and I think every callous posted.

H. Everybody knows a K stage colonists after aeronautical for those those are located on K stage is basically when you first get into Calvinism you have that rough transition of getting into it, but once you get into it. You just become like really hard-core… Like usual. Yeah, I want to make the world Calvinists so I mean I went through it, but I hope it cannot get aside a little bit wiser. Understanding that okay this is how I understands materiality or the doctrine of salvation is material. Jesus. This is how I understand how God saves his people now but we have to remember that were not saved were not were not solar Calvinism okay will Calvinism is Latin for the economy were not saved by leaving talent were saved by faith in Christ. And so I'm pretty sure that the thief on the cross was not a five-point Calvinists so I'm not going to expect that everyone else hop on board to the archaeology and was interesting to his is I'm technically not reformed, which is because I am a Baptist, most reform defined reformed as having to have paid a Baptist or into Baptist theology and I reject the baptism based on my understanding of the word. So technically I'm technically not reformed but on the confessional Baptist. They were they were called in history of the particular Baptist anyways I'm going off to some great anyways yeah I got a respectful arsenic. My friends were not Calvinists then and there is also 1/3 like Lutheran theology is actually not quite Arminian and is not quite colonists kind of summer in the middle. Colonists kind of yeah Canada also different because Lutherans believe you can lose your salvation, but they also believe in the doctrine of election so anyways so there's there's a lot of different views on salvation, but what unites us is that the essentials like you said or saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Bibles are soul infallible final authority.

We believe that is not a way to be saved, but through Christ, so only the essentials with you. We all holding, flexible nonsegmented podcast but Diablo for my noncollege brothers and sisters and I really 20 want to know that I do not believe you have to callous to be saved think that's it.

That's probably one of the other top contentions it. Let us examine Calvinism is a think that will actually hurt in the past few days as you believe that every large Calvinists is damned or is wrong and condemn them. And that's not true at all. I do not condemn noncoms so just that I… Jack will have you had something going for you and that is that they have some of the best pickup lines. Calvinism like Wyatt is just something my head back when I was single, but was the first time of the second mosaic is listed below. Picket line loom was really cheesy like God.

Racially off of you and I together and then my personal favorite. Needless to grace because the system that's pretty good yeah yeah are the other is the scene that is the meeting with John MacArthur like back in the 70s is that the really big lapels on the student denies got become the 70s hair and a big sunglasses and he says the attic tulips of the five points of Calvinism you know that with references to… Let's move the L so that you and I are together area yeah yeah lots and lots of cheesy, corny palace pickup line of the outer podcast. Please visit the out of rightness podcast feed on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message than with comments or questions, send a message at the top of the page appreciated the page life. We also have an out of rightness or in others. As we discussed past episodes suggest also sent us out of rightness, subscribe to the out of rightness podcast on Comcast box Google cast cast the modify institution. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel.

If you like it certainly is likely surveyed also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland message and as well music for the out of rightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com Steve Wright fireflies to show in legalities and kind of you and is a and and and and she may and may and