Identity Mormon OR In CHRIST Part 1

Your right and and and my question most of us at some point in our lives. Identity is one of the most controversial terms in modern life. The American psychological Association defines identity as an individual sense of self defined by a set of physical, psychological and interpersonal characteristics that is not wholly shared with any other person and be a range of affiliations, e.g., ethnicity, and social roles identity involves a sense of continuity or the feeling that one is the same person today that one was yesterday or last year despite physical or other changes, such as census, derived from one's body sensations one's body image and the feeling that one's memories, goals, values, expectations and beliefs belong to the self definition touches on three aspects of identity, namely that it is personal, familial and social when seeking to define identity were dealing with a bit of a nebulous phenomenon. The sense of self, which is the APA definition notes differs for each person. Nevertheless, the sense of self is something that is derived from our own understandings of our personal experiences or aspirations are ideals, our hopes and our beliefs in a blog piece titled the danger of tribe mentality over empathy more than the creator of the website modern-day Aum mindfulness and mental health for real people, shares her thoughts on an article she read and mindful magazine quote about how humans are biased towards claims that conform to existing beliefs or points of view," she writes. The article calls this cognitive tribalism when being a part of the community becomes part of our identity gives us purpose belonging sense of being within something bigger than we are, what our group believes we believe in other groups or schools of thought that our group dislikes. We dislike this makes a lot of sense and I see it every day. I truly believe that on the deepest level we all want to belong being different and I is uncomfortable in a much older time it would've probably led to exile or being ostracized as part of our nature to feel comfortable to feel safe. As one of the group for Mormons who lose belief in the truth claims of the LDS church questions related to identity abound in my still Mormon. If so in what sense do I have a new identity.

What is that in the next three episodes. I am the other sons of light tackle epic topic we discussed how one's identity is affected by one's faith journey. This week will be talking about questions related to when we first recalled having a sense of self and as a child, whether our religionists as latter-day Saints played a role in developing a sense of self and then finally, what influence the LDS church had on our sense of self as we were coming of age in her formative and teenage years.

We hope you enjoy these… Thanks fireflies so you know this first question kinda asks us to look back into our our own pasts right to to get a sense for what we first remember having a sense of self and again a sense of self is defined as a way a person thinks about and views his or her traits, beliefs and purpose within the world.

So in a nutshell, strong sense of self may be defined by knowing your own goals, values and ideals, so Michael won't want you tell me, but when did you first remember having a sense of self come about that.

This is actually a really tough question for me. I don't usually think this deeply so I would say that it was probably as a young teenager. Before I started to have a sense of self because when I was just a kid you know I was just kinda going with the flow. I didn't feel like I had any sort of goal or impact in the world and you just give house was around 14, 15, and I said my for my three friends at church and together we made up the odd clods so just a bunch of bunch of nerves that hung out together.

So I just kinda like the comic relief in the grouping. I guess just constantly wanting to wrestle like if the youth activities and staff so I think I started to just kinda build an image of myself is like okay on Mike you know the guy with a sense of humor that wants to, you know rough people up all the time when he mean exactly like my goals and in that kind of thing though because my goals weren't always say they were very shortsighted at that point, like my only goal at the at that time was just to have fine and meet girls in that kind of thing having those things develop over time. Another change, and as our as to our identity is just part of the topic today so I think yeah I think your unemployment gas so yes, I started to kinda realize I had some some things I was good at and some things and I was really bad at and I think I find myself a lot based on those things.

So I knew, for instance, you know, I was always really good at writing from a young age. In fact, in high school and I just start. I had a hobby of writing fictional stories and never went anywhere but there was one instance where I wrote. I started writing a short story and it was in first person, and was about being locked in a basement and I just described in such vivid detail on Mike.

All he could hear was the drip of water in and counting the water is what kept me sane landed up pulling my parents in to the school and asking them questions because they thought that it was real, and you know it wasn't. I was just I was just, you know, trying to be descriptive and in trying to ride and they almost got in trouble for so I saw that it was really good at writing. I was horrible at talking to people you know just super shy just didn't think that I was very important at all because I didn't have the confidence that other people around me have so I think just kinda seeing my shortcomings and am really identifying myself based on those things is, is when I started to have a sense of self that which is about writing their residence as well talk about that a little bit in a minute method whereby you when you first remember having a sense of self is probably enough early on entry school age. Maybe one is a little kid I was, like when Michael's planning. I just cannot have fun I like playing video games and hang out my friends like you know is I started growing older, I started to really like art really love to draw a lot so like when I grew up and I was out is like all the other childhood fantasy of wanting to be a superhero, not stuffing soldier comics and superheroes not chemist of all the time. Superman and Batman and Spider-Man on so I was like a this is kind of fun and like I'm okay at it and allow for a five-year-old or whatever, seven-year-old is again maybe I should do. This is like a career. 7000 and like what really motivated me to just like really just really go crazy if I drawing like I just spent hours and hours every day drawing and my parents bought me this really awesome art table that I would drawn and just drool out something is, when I first started develop in all my sense of like who I was and what I was good at like something that I could shoot for you. Nine. My in my future career, sure when that changed when I decided maybe I got old enough, and I realize, and let my art was really not good is some 20 that changed end Kenwood on the other ideas. I'll send a really good friend in school that his mom was just like a fantastic painter should paint with watercolors but mostly oils. She cheated portraits and she just did the most incredible artwork, but they were always struggling to pay the bills and stuff and so I think I can felt bad about that.

Maybe I don't.

Maybe a subconscious or something. I thought to myself as I command you know they go through a hardship so much I want to go through that so I guess like you said, over time, I guess your values and your ideas about the shift and change over time and I guess maybe my desire for conveniences or you know for certain income or whatever.

Maybe that shifted my my goals and may out on it. That's, you're hoping for this good that she brought a memory to my mind is a member just plain towns of video games when I was when I was younger and I would go spend the summer with my cousin and we play like fighting games like Street fighter and all the stuff and my dad was a computer programmer, so you know me and my cousin were talking one day were like hey let's grow up and make a fighting game. It's going to be about. You know all the mascots from the fast food restaurants since like we gotta get all the permissions so like I called Jack-in-the-Box and Mike is Jack there are like yeah just a minute just sat there on hold for light 45 minutes and were just like honestly believing that like Jack does really get on. So how long did you wait for the broke the news to the news to us. I don't think they have the heart to do. You know, I would like to just get this on hold until we gave up is like buying a phone call later. You know, and come back as a saris in the box.

No they didn't. They never came back. He killed Jack and I have so many thoughts on how you are our values and our our sense of self. Early on in our lives kind of intersect.

It's interesting so young. I'm with you, like my first sense of self came early on in elementary school I had a couple of different speech impediments. You may notice, at times, and the podcasts that I thought starter some words here and there, and the other the other thing that I dealt with when I was younger was raw criticism, which is having trouble staying your hours so I talked like Elmer fun when I was in kindergarten, first second grade and I used to go to speech therapy during school to help me with that and it is one story in particular that my family thinks it's hilarious that I don't really think it's very funny, but I was at by great aunt's house she she was. She moved out to Utah from New York. My grandmother sister.

My dad's mother and she lived next door to us and we would go over and she would give us cookies and Oreos and chocolate chip chips ahoy cookies and and sit and talk with her in my my great uncle Bob and they had this German Shepherd dog named bear that was just an amazing dog and we we would pet the dog and submit cookies and they would sit and smoking and it was just another world living in Utah because they were very much in a Brooklyn New Yorkers and it was no visit view into my dad's family that I do normally have the we were there one time and she had she had given us some pretzel, some of the stick pretzels you know and she wanted us to break them up and make our initials out of them and in my name is Paul Richard Nierenberg and II use the pretzels to set up UWM because even with the with the letters I was struggling. No, not just the pronunciation but with the letters and understanding the difference in and so my family thinks it's hilarious but I don't. But in any case. As a result, in elementary school I got bullied a lot because my speech impediments and that was Kenneth, one of the things that first gave me a sense of self. It was a negative sense of self.

But is one of the first times I remember being aware that I was a separate person from other people and then had differences in things and so there was that the adult would also Matthew you know what kind of a aligning with you I discovered at the local drawing around that time and you know we competing a lot of like the reflections contest in an elementary school which was for art and writing, and I remember doing a drawing of the Challenger disaster because I remembered you watching that live when I was in second grade. How how much it impacted my my second grade teacher because the universe the teacher on board that shuttle and so that Kenneth spurred me to to love drawing and I did that for many years after that and and Michael like you said, you know later on in high school I got into your creative writing and poetry and short stories and really found a love for that, which made me a little bit different than than some of my friends of the time because I played basketball and was captain of the last ball team and you know creative writing wasn't really something that you quote unquote jocks did so kind of put me in a different category thereto as well and playing off of that that early life sense of self as as a child. What role did did your religion play in your sense of self with any Matthew we think what's interesting because I do have vivid memories of sitting at my parents at LDS church services.

In sacrament meeting and also going to primary like I let my parents in Yunnan. I'm not trying to speak ill them whatsoever. I really appreciate you know what they they done for me. But you know we weren't exactly we were we were Sunday Mormons essentially none we would go to church and then afterwards you know I think I mentioned before, where we would shop on Sundays and stuff and Alki confuse me as a kid because her talk backto shop on Sundays and asked my parents and I would really get a straight answer, and also asked why my parents were married in the temple, things like that so so is interesting because he knows a small cage are still trying to like you said you're still trying to figure out who you are, try to figure out the world ice still kept the kind of simple mindset where I liked what I liked. Like comic books and video games and stuff. I tried not to worry about too much stuff, but still you kinda start to ask yourself the sky deeper questions and no why do you do certain things are why do we do it this way you question authority, a lot more.

I think at least I did as a little kid and so that's a complete a part of our lives, but I always wondered why we did it because you know we didn't really integrate what we learn to church very well and the rest of our lives like was like my pants are bad parents and their great letting also. My parents you know they were alcoholics, but they drink occasionally and they drink coffee.

Regularly. So I think that kind of that seen both sides were and my friends whose families are really hard-core and you know there really devoted to the LDS faith and then my parents and I you know, we went to church and I'm stink like a social thing so I do not. It was really hard for me to figure it all out. My head figure why we went to church and I didn't like going to church for that reason because like what was the matter in our like not really doing anything the church says you're supposed to do so and so's there's a hard thing for me to come to figure out but in some sense you know I like the community and I like the social aspects of it meeting other people and going to church functions and things like that sometimes you know where they have food and stuff that out parties or things like that so it Kenneth to complete that role when I was a kid, but in terms of like the actual religious aspects of the religion. I wasn't that big of a role in my childhood. The fact that you were Sunday Mormons. He said affect the way you were accepted within the obvious community at all our member member when talking other kids and we would talk about getting married in the temple and I was so important because you know families can be together forever all at stuff and just other kids being so excited to stay with my parents right in this temple. My parents may not temple night asked me and I would say well my parents remain the temple. They settle in on and I was confused because I was little and I don't really understand you know it is hard understand adult dynamics when you're not young so I don't quite understand like I felt a little bit ostracized. In that sense and then kind of. As I grew older, and my teenage years I kind of started going more to church, especially before and after 12 when you see the priesthood, I started getting really active in going weekly and you know think I was like deacons quorum president at some point a camera think I might've been and teachers quorum. And then after teacher Squire McKenna just started stop going.

That's kind on my parents were going through divorce now sky rough and I kinda got to the point again right and really see the point of going to church because I wasn't really truly a believer anyway so kind had that can. I like dips Chino Hills and valleys, I guess in terms of activity in but I never really and I was like I was really sure if I really believe in God. Up to that point.

Anyway, like I was going for other reasons like 1 million. I completely agree with what he just said about going for other reasons because that pretty much sums up my entire childhood right there churches. It was three hours long bags and as a kid that is not something that you want to spend your Sunday doing so I can interview Sunday as did that day where we have to go to church great you know and then have to get dressed up and I have to put on a tie, and it always felt like he was choking me so I always just felt really uncomfortable at church and I think the way that I reviewed it was just that you know there's all these rules and none of them affected me positively.

So Sundays you know I wasn't allowed to even go in the backyard ill family was very strict about what we can do on the Sabbath and you know that meant that there were just lists few certain movies that we were allowed to watch and the few activities that were approved by them and so Sundays just it was just a drag as a kid I I hated Sunday.

It's like yeah you know it's great because I don't have to go to school but I know most rather go to school or have to do you know my normal weekly staff then have to deal something is a just a board all the time and is and that was that was really rough for me. That didn't start to change until you and I was about 14 or 15 years old and I think the youth programs that they have in the church are fantastic and you know I start to make a lot of friends in the church and it was very different from that school because it's cool I don't think I ever talk to anybody but pretty much the entire time all the way through high school. You know Justin, I just have a very small group of friends and that was it. But at church. You know I had lots of friends and so I was able to actually socially interact and integrate and so you I just I guess a I bonded with the other members of the church at that point and I felt like you know this is my tribe. These are my people. I'm actually happy here. I can be myself and so that's that's really where things started.

Take a turning point for me and I grew up in the part of Salt Lake City.

That was a little more diverse I think than the may be other areas areas of Utah were, for example, my first grade teacher was an African-American woman from Detroit, and at the end of the day when you know the last five minutes of class. When we would be taking turns being dismissed, to going get our backpacks from our cubbies.

She would put on Michael Jackson like to just a breakdance and like we had a breakdance over the cubby to get your backpacking out was I don't know that how many Utah kids had that experience my kindergarten teacher lists was a Catholic and she was from Central America and she did she like in public school. She did the Christmas story right like I was chosen to play Joseph girl, my class was chosen to play Mary friend of mine who lived up the street from me was also a Catholic.

I was chosen to play the innkeeper and I remember seeing his family were a little upset that she didn't get the part of Joseph. I got enough they thought maybe she should have an end because they were most of the teacher and in the family were Catholic but I was a Mormon select one of those experiences where I can remember there being some some disagreement over the fact that I was a different religion than somebody else and one of those, first experiences where I was realizing, no, no, I my religion that I belong to, because of know the family I'm growing up in his and viewed positively by everybody. And so I have the scum of the first times I remember feeling different.

Because of my religion. But then when I was in fourth grade we moved from decadent downtown Salt Lake City in between selling city and ends in Bountiful and from there to West Jordan and out to the suburbs and the friends I made at my new school.

One was was not LBS and then the other one was kind of best friends with him. Though his family was obvious he didn't consider himself to be LBS and so they became my two best friends through the rest of elementary school, middle school and then on through high school as well and there were times when I felt some what I would say is maybe some judgment from some of my LDS peers because my closest friends were not LDS and I also saw my friend who was a really good kid. You will be judged by by LDS people like me got into dating into dating years in high school, you know, he would ask LDS girls out and sometimes be turned down because he wasn't LBS in the release to hurt his feelings and then make him upset you. I got to see that firsthand to talk to about a first hand because we're good friends and have a situation where I remember thinking you know that that maybe wasn't as as is helpful to two people to have them view of you know when I can have relationships with people outside of Canada LBS bubble in the my committee didn't experience that is much growing up in Texas actually irregular in the highest yeah I mean there's is one time where you think Rose is a young adult like girls didn't pay attention to me at all, but there was this one time where where my coworkers had a friend in she was interested in me so you know we going out like once or twice, and I was actually really interested in her and I go back to my apartment you know with all my roommates and the hot wind of what's going on and they basically all told me like it was unacceptable for me to date a nonmember and because of the pure pressure. I stopped going out with her while message units to dispense anything like that, I experienced some some things like that mean just the fact that Mike etc. 14/15, when I started going in active from the church. I would I as I considered myself an atheist.

At that time so I was early ostracized for my faith was more for my lack of faith because of coming in Utah, most my friends were well I mean most the people that I had going on dates with in terms of school dances and things like that. They were LDS and so those canards because it's it's weird to think the it was weird to me at the time to think alike that I was okay enough to go to dance with at school but enough.

I wanted to date and I asked him out for a second date. I know that they wouldn't anyone ask try to ask them out for second day most of the time because I just knew that I just inherently knew that LDS girls only really want to seriously date LDS guys. The bus I was kinda young so wasn't really that big a deal to me.

Anyway, I guess at the time but yet was.

It was kinda rough in that just as idea like okay well should you date someone for who they are, rather than you know what church they're affiliated with. That's kind of how I felt at the time is I didn't feel like I was a terrible person or anything. As I grew older and I know became active in the church I understood okay there really place emphasis on temple marriage and raising children.

The church and I can understand why they would want to date me because if I remain inactive because you cannot Psalms a similar value system so you know is can adjust my caps is partially just my immature understanding of relationships and things like that and selfishness that the kind of that. That bothered me. Yeah so that's that's all I really don't with if you guys ever heard anybody talk about this, but I member being the young men's program and I'm basically saying like oh you know any two people can work out if they get married, you know, as long as they have these similar values and kinda made it sound like nothing really mattered.

Personality didn't matter. It was just, you know that he had the same values. Did you ever hear anything like that in the church. I don't remember hearing anything like that, growing up, but listening to others say, like on on what the Mormon stories podcast talk about their marriages and also talking with Angela in conversations that she had with other women and during the years that we were a married couple within the church. She definitely heard that from from women. She talked to Annette surprised her and I've heard people on unlike Mormon stories podcast talk about as well that there was there was that the like, as long as you were. You were kind of both in a worthy LDS people you write like personality and then and whether or not you were compatible and in other ways didn't really matter it would work out and and unfortunately a unit testing that be kind of a bad thing for for marriages. At times, so you can remember something hearing something about that Phyllis not Oakes with the guys name was Holly's Holland to Maryland yeah I got sent an office him but I do remember people passing on the story that you know I was at a youth meeting at BYU or something in there saying I can't find a spouse can help me out and he says what do you have a temple recommend and then says yeah and then he points to another girl in the crowd giving up. Recommend yeah like all right well then you're perfect for each other and I heard sirens some story like that, but I never went back to go to go check to see if thousand legitimate talk that they gave but yeah when I heard that even when I was LDS I was like okay whether he said that are not I'll think that's super great advice and maybe this is because they know I sightseeing you know my parents know their divorces, rough, and you know some level of compatibility in terms of personality is important not just simply what you believe in the next question is similar to the previous one, but it's a little different as well.

So part of identity is social and cultural. So how did the LDS church. Specifically, like, but the church proper, not necessarily the culture but the church proper influence your sense of self. Michael what would you say the first thing that I think of is in a lot of ways it was really positive. I really do well with as strict structure like when I have my mission and just the rules in general in the church. I just tend to be the kind of person that that operates really well when there's a lot of strict rules so you I think it was a positive thing for me to be going to the church and just have so many strict things that I couldn't do. You know, and I was really proud of it. Do you like oh I don't watch rated R movies.

I didn't drink caffeine went to church every Sunday and read the Scriptures and prayed sometimes so I think in one aspect is the structure helped me with my life, but you have a lot of just and I know you document that the church proper and in the church itself wasn't something I felt really committed to you until I was actually on my mission so up until that time it was all about the culture for me and it was just it was like a drug. I mean I would I be hanging out with all my friends and having these fun activities and you know doing great snacks and and firesides and I just like everything about it. In fact, I'm still like man I would mind reliving my childhood in the church. That's how much I enjoyed it. I went on my mission and I still kind of had that mindset and I'm telling you there is a little a lot of pressure for me to go on my mission because my family my family line goes all the way back to the beginning of the church and and you when going on missions for generations is like 1/7 generation latter-day St., and so that was just something that was expected of me to do anything. I really questioned it too much, but I went on my mission. I was still kind of in a culture mindset. I don't think I'm really knew the doctrine really well. In fact, my cousin was in the car with 180 from the book of Mormon sitting nannies like you know what's so special about this looking like oh well you know it's it's in the book of Scripture written by prophets on the American continent and we have living prophets today. He's like, what's so special about that, Mike. I don't you know I just I just didn't have in mind for that kind of thing back then. All he cared about was just having a good time being around my friends and and that was about it. It wasn't until I want my mission met and met Eddie Knox and started debating evangelicals and they started to attack the church that I started wanting to defend it, and I started feeling like I was connected to the church. Somehow I think part of it was just the first time I started to really feel doubt about whether the church was true.

I just felt like really lost.

You know it my whole family structure just fell kind of fake. At that point that's the right word, but I just give me about my whole family. Unlike this can't be right because you know my mom and dad are really intelligent people and I answer specially my dad and my dad was my hero. As like there's no way that you know that he would fall for this. If it wasn't true like it has to be true because he's a member of the church when there's there's no question if it's not true, then you know maybe he doesn't think he doesn't deserve to be respected by me know. Maybe I'm just wrong about everything in life and if the church was false. I had to be wrong about everything in life because I was the one thing I was absolutely certain I was that the church wasn't some evil organization like people wanted to paint it out to be when when you met and started debating with him to do that feel like a personal attack to you. I don't think it did at first. I mean, I did feel you know this, like pit in my state of this hole in my stomach like oh my goodness like and I think it was more about just what if I'm wasting my time here and what if I'm wrong, but then as I left and I started thinking about my family and just kinda sympathizing with them and how they would feel if if it was discovered that the church was false.

I think my bond with my family kinda tied in with their bond to the church and so then he kinda started to become important for me to learn how to defend it, and it's kind of funny because I completely slipped my mindset after my mission.

Whereas before I been all about the culture and I didn't care about the doctrine I cared a lot about the doctrine but I didn't really like the culture coming off my mission, i.e. you I wasn't in the same place.

I kind of felt like an outcast. A lot of times, especially you know if coming out like all my friends from when I was a young man they all got married really quickly. I think one of them got married like a week after his mission. I don't know how you pull that off and and near priests and they were all married and and I just sat there like it took me a couple years and I'm just like, okay, like this culture.

You know in Mormonism like you get married quickly or there something wrong with you. And so Mike, what's wrong with me that I can't get married. And then I also did didn't end up going to school and that's a big culture thing you know your spirit is supposed to go to school like the first few years there even in my marriage.

If we talk to another young couple that was always the topics that was being discussed is over you going to school for, and it was just assumed because that's what everybody does. And unlike well I'm not really doing anything. I don't even know what my plans are any.

I just really you know not doing anything but I just felt I just felt ostracized because of Madden and even you in the marriage and having it my first kid on my cocaine like apparently we don't have enough children because were just not that popular. You know, maybe if we had more kids. People would want to reach out and talk to us more so I'm really just you know I have some friends here and there but I was really more like you know the church is full of imperfect people. But the doctrine is perfect. So you know, even though I hate it here. Sometimes I'm going to stay here because you know where else am I gonna go. No one else has the truth except for so you save on your mission, and after that your your sense of self as a Mormon" was strengthened. Yeah, I definitely saw myself as a latter-day St. on my mission and after my mission. It was inseparable.

I think early on in my mission right after talking to Ed I was kind of like thinking you know, I don't think the church is true and I was trying to read the Bible and is like if it'll just if I just find the right passages and tell me it's not true. I'm ready to go and I was I wasn't that connected to it.

At that point but you really quickly after that it just really latched on it. It wasn't gonna let go for a long time Matthew about you.

So when I got into an activity in high school.

I kind of had that yearning for something more to be more connected to something in oats, whether it's something metaphysical or just to people like I always wanted to have some kind of deeper connections with people but there's also always at tension. Also, because as an introvert and I still am, where it's like you know I enjoy being around other people, but sometime, but most the time I just like doing my own thing can sometimes because I just get stressed out too easily so him buddy. I was always kind of searching for deeper friendships or or you know, possibly dating and you know looking forward to marriage and stuff had even started thinking about that in late high school just because Anna's like I said, it's the strangest push and pull relationship work as an introvert, at least as I had.

It was like is like I wanted to connect to people but it was difficult because I didn't know how to and it was hard finding people that connect with me so anyways, going back to the LDS church so that like having this difficulty of feeling disconnected from everyone and I also had some difficulties with my job. I said some jokes where I I'd kinda gone too far. You know like and it was taken the wrong way and so because of that they got really upset and they were complained to the regional manager basically and so I lost my job, I think. I mean like I felt really bad about it even though it was just a misunderstanding. You know because everybody buddy I worked with were just, you know we always joke around and just say stuff that we didn't mean it on so I think and I felt like they took it to personally but I did. I did feel really bad about it because at the same time. I know that if it were completely blameless.

I wouldn't I wouldn't feel bad about it. I still feel guilty about it. So I was doing at diagnosing my first year college where I lost my job, but I kind wanted to leave anyway because I've been I was working at Little Caesars for a long time. There's like three years or something and all through high school and got kinda sick of it like I do some soul-searching at that time. And that's kind when I started researching religion and I'm gone over that and Other episodes, but to me is Cadillac well you know I think Christianity makes a lot of sense been at cycle cable in which which kind of Christianity and do not catch onto the trap of like will you have to have authority so he ought through it's basically Roman Catholics or latter-day Saints because they're the only ones acclaimed up priesthood authority like I think so then I started going back into the church got really you know interested in the church and like I just studied a lot and read a lot absorb what LDS doctrine and that kind of that kinda gave me that connection that was kind of looking for this idea that I'm connected to God and to other people and that I have the sense of belonging in the world that I generally have before those cowboy searching for. I did route I didn't really do that great in high school on mentors, my grades and it's not because I couldn't do it. You know, it's just that I sent see the point of trying. So I was kind of a zombie. Now, but I just can't give me a real sense of purpose and drive when I was thinking about serving a mission, and I felt like you know if if this is true of this gospel is true in all I've really got to dedicate myself to it. So it was even a question of if I should serve a mission.

It was like well if I receive a testimony that I should then I definitely will go on a mission, and it surprised my parents because my parents never pushed me to go on a mission in all night. My mom is still not active in the church. My dad at the time was inactive for a while for long time and then he kind of was starting to come back as I was coming back so no one really pushed me to do it. So when I told Mike been considering serving a mission early kind of shocked them was acrylic my formative years.

I guess in terms of my being being reactivated in the church had a lot of people that would help me out and answer my questions and I was really excited to serve a mission in serving a mission. I felt like is the hardest. How my life is just like the most miserable experience. Most of the time, but, not the end of it just inculcated that that sense of identity that I was a latter-day St. in like this idea that no matter what happens, that's who I am like I'm a child of God.

Latter-day St. Longo Church of Jesus Christ. Letter to St. some priesthood holder like those were like the core foundations of who I was and I was like you to fit everything else changes. I still have that to the church.

I think for me was kind of all-encompassing when I was when I was younger I remember you don't cousins leaving and coming home for missions and going to the airport either see them off were welcome them home and Saturday nights during conference season. I would go with my dad to the stake center in Salt Lake City are sick was read by Temple Square source text. I was like a block away from Temple Square and would go and sit and listen to priesthood session I heard Gordon B. Hinckley give teachings like you know quote interview is a Mormon boy whether you think it or not, you will reflect good or ill on the church by reason of your behavior. You know, and those types of teachings I think sunk in for me and made me feel like you know your Mormon boy. Later on when I was in LDS seminary middle school and high school, David behaved was was my favorite apostle and you just think about the fact that I had a favorite apostle kinda speaks to the extent to which Mormonism was like a major part of my identity did you guys have favorite apostles when you were younger. Elder Holland was by far my favorite apostle. I know you really started wanting to be a good speaker and I actually started trying to light pattern. The way that I would give talks after him because I just thought he was so so powerful the speaker and so interesting to listen to.

I really liked Elder Holland is that she still my favorite of the 12.

I don't want to come across as like oh no, going up Mormon was negative think as though there were a lot of positive things about it, but I think that growing up Mormon. There's definitely I think there's definitely an approach that the LDS church takes to the weighted instructs children that is aimed at developing an identity as a latter-day St. This is part of the instruction that's given part of the purpose of the instruction is given so you remember in primary Sunday I got a list of songs we would sing like I am a child of God, which, like gives you uniquely Mormon view of of that concept of being a child of God. So there's like I lived in heaven knowledge and have a long time ago. It is true you know the whole earth life thing in Mormon doctrine, the golden plates song book of Mormon stories Nephi's courage latter-day prophets song called to serve Pioneer children sang as they walked an angel came to Joseph Smith. I hope they call me on a mission. I want to be a missionary.

Now I'm not sure if you were alluding to Matthew Billick. The church of Jesus Christ. Like I belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints know the song all of those are, aimed at instilling in Mormon children a sense of being a Latter Day Saints through through distinctives of of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints writer and I remember when I when I left on my mission. One of my parents. Good friends gave me a children's song book, which I thought was kind of an interesting gift to give to a 19-year-old leaving on a mission, but he wrote on the inside of an inscription like encouragement encourages me to remember the truths that I learned from most songs and I remember they knew about that songbook went with me to Hungary where was no was basically only there to be carrying around my Scriptures because it was worthless for the children. There is was in English but Vince is something I carry with me and held dear to me is as like this memento of my being Mormon remembering in the MTC. There was a remember the devotionals that they would have on Tuesday nights and there was this one speaker that they would have them in a weeks that I was there. He spoke probably five or six times.

Elder Kawai was his name and he used to give these riveting devotional speeches about serving a mission in Italy and confronting Catholic priests with the true priesthood than you know it just made me feel like a man I'm gone out to serve God you know and I'm gonna get this power that they don't have and where is going to take over the world kind of mentality that was kind of instilled in you and the MTC.

Did you go since that as well. While you are there you for sure it was the name that saw armies of humanism 10 songs in the sink is a really powerful song and like you know they sing that part you know and we will be the Lord's missionaries. But then they changed. We are the Lord's missionaries in the choir director was like she started bursting into tears and everybody was good and super emotional. You just feel this like sense of community and connectedness to know that you're all there for the same purpose. You call came from different parts of the world you all believe in the same message and are going out to share the same message in the world is really like.

Even now, looking back on it is really kind of a cool experience to to feel like everybody's in this together. You know like you really don't kinda feel like you're going to boot camp in a sense where you are being trained to be a soldier for God and to share the gospel and things like that in them and was like a really emotional experience. A government island where we sing that song and but it's just, and it's like I think about that a McMahon like if we could use that enough for Christ Church that would that would be so awesome if we could get people feeling that connected you know I think that's one thing.

Like you said in terms of children's organelle youth activities and was a Michael I forget where talk about youth activities and youth programs are just really good to get kids involved in the church. The missionary program and the other search really gives you a sense of direction and a sense of purpose in the sense of nonsense a brotherhood with all your fellow missionaries really cool thing that I kinda wish I can. I kinda wonder if there is there Christian organizations like that where they can connect like that no district is really good organization that's that's one really good thing that there but they excel at yeah yeah I agree I remember just sitting in the MTC missionary training Center them in all those missionaries singing no called to serve.

That's another another one of the songs they just leasing it is so powerful and it's like you do. You just feel like you're part of the Lord's army and nothing can stand in the way of you is just like yeah women were the truth and everybody else is either going to join or they're going to get squashed. I would've said it like that at the time, but yes just like this is power in the church that you can't ignore. And it made you feel like the church was a much bigger deal than it really was like I kind of just felt like oh everybody's thinking about the church you know one way or another, like all the time like a huge mass majority of the planet you know is is really you know worried about us in some sense and in his leg now. I went back and I'm like coming in yet obviously it had a big part of my mind for a long time I left the church, but I mean while the time I think about it you know these days. I realize that other people don't either. Like other people have things going on in life and is just just a solution that we had what we were out there in the mission field yeah yeah for sure their kindness and experience that I had that come to serve as bookends to my mission is one of them, was during my mission so I mentioned that David behaved well a back up a little bit. So when I was younger. We as a family we would go to Temple Square at Christmas time because they had all the lights put out in the trees and it was just was a beautiful thing on a Michael text on if you ever seen that if you ever got to see that in Utah or not, but know the deck out all of Temple Square. All the treason and everything with Christmas lights and they used to have and I don't know if they do anymore. But these to have him on the lawn outside of the North visitor center, a life-size Nativity and know the wise men would be were out there.

You know giant camels sitting on trying channels of digestive or wax figures were plastic.

I'm not sure what they were but you could be lit up in a certain way.

That was just beautiful women of the North visitor center was like the backdrop and you have the Christus statue. No cattle overlooking the nativity from the window of the North visitor center was a beautiful setting and Amber would go with my grandma on her around in the wheelchair and look at the lights and that was just it was that was an experience that always made me feel more Christian the Mormon I'm talking about my sense of self right because of this there was a time when you were celebrating the birth of the Savior, and she was the focus and there was just as beautiful setting of of lights right and it was all about Jesus and then when I went on my mission. The first conference after I was out on my mission, David behaved gave a talk just after Gordon B. Hinckley of Spokane and he was basically doing what a lot of the apostles will do they speak after after that, the obvious profit the signal were thankful for profits voicing of the kind of thing, and she was talking about some of his remembrances from when he was a child and you going to meetings and an illiterate little tabernacle in Idaho where he grew up and saying, come, come, you saying cease. I felt the spirit and power of the music would raise the roof. You could feel it because of the power the faith and the testimony of the members and that little tabernacle we would have erotic priesthood courses where we learn to sing.

It was there. We would sing a Mormon boy. We don't hear that song much anymore.

I wish you were the Mormon boy Mormon boy, I am a Mormon boy, I might be envied by a king, for I am a Mormon boy and he goes on to say that made a great impression upon me.

Just think of that for a moment I might be envied by a king is a king with all the power. All the pump all the wealth the king would have, but I was beginning to learn that we held as members of the church. Blessings, priesthood blessings, knowledge, information that the king wouldn't know about and didn't have. I might be envied by a king, for I am a Mormon boy and I remember reading that on my mission than just thinking yeah I'm a Mormon boy, that's what I am. You know it just seem like another instance of where there was this inculcation of distinctives), and even now you see it with the most recent general conference right and that the new proclamation on on the restoration you know there's there's always this portion of Mormon distinctives and when I was LDS I wouldn't have viewed it the way that I view it now, I would've viewed as you know that's that's us, being us right and we have this important message.

We believe that the gospel is been restored and we had to get out to the world, but my mission really kind of affected my identity and in one sense at heart and my resolve to be Mormon) and in another sense of challenged my identity as Mormon because I met people of different faiths and I had in-depth conversations with people of different faiths and her different viewpoints on things that I thought were kind of set in stone and realized that other people viewed them differently than I did and it kind of instilled in me and us versus them mentality. I think were I was really resolved to be Mormon, but I was also really resolved to be a Mormon Christian right and you know didn't matter to me what anybody else thought or said I will.

I was a Christian, but it was important to me also that I was Mormon. Okay that's a wrap on this episode next week really cover several more questions to the Trinity really talk about. As we came into adulthood how being Mormon I have become part of our identity. How strongly we we have a sense of self as young adults as Mormon quote" to cover whether or not to try mentality can also affect Christians of other various denominations and roasted in a cover whether making a faith transition out of the LDS church led us to experience a disturbance in our sense of self. We hope you join us for that discussion as well. Thanks fireflies of the outer brightness podcast. Please visit the out of right field free to send us a message than with comments or send a message at the time the pain appreciated the page like we also have an outer brightness and other can also send this outer brightness on hear from you soon and subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on Cas box cast cast the modify and stitch. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it certainly right.

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By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com state right fireflies to show the kind of man is a man in the he and and and and and and and and and human way that in