What About SACRAMENTS? Re-Do BAPTISM? Part 1

Your answering and and and the fourth of this article say states. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are first phase of the Lord Jesus Christ. Second, repentance third baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. Fourth laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. In our previous episode of the outer brightness podcast. We each discussed our past experiences as Latter Day Saints related to the nest necessity of baptism and the sacrament what most Christians refer to as the Lord's supper, communion, etc. whether differences in viewpoints on the sacraments or ordinances disrupt the unity of the Christian church and how we now prepare and receive the Lord's supper and baptism as born-again Christians.

In this episode we would like to take a closer look at the subject as full-time missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Every during every weekly meeting at least for those of us were young enough to preach my gospel, sorry Paul, we restarted the following. Our purpose is to invite others to come into Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement, repentance, baptism receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end we were taught and we taught others that without question, except for those who pass away before the age of eight.

Age of accountability.

Water baptism and confirmation were absolutely necessary ordinances that everyone must receive from a Latter Day Saints priesthood holder to be eligible to enter the celestial kingdom, the highest of the 3° of heaven.

There were no if's and's or but's. If someone did not receive the restored gospel which included faith, repentance, water baptism by immersion in the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, he or she must receive these ordinances by proxy in the LDS temple there is just no getting around it. In previous episodes. We've described our personal journeys out of the LDS church and toward biblical Christianity and continuing our faith journeys. One topic that was of particular concern to me was what water baptism is what it signifies, who must receive it and whether it is still an absolute requirement for eternal life. The same is true for the sacrament.

Why do Christians do it, do they believe the same things that I did about it. Does God do anything. The sacrament or is it a memorial only during this episode we hope to address some of these questions and describe how we have grown in our understanding of Scripture concerning water baptism and the Lord's supper will also dive into passages that we often used as LDS missionaries to demonstrate that we must receive baptism in order to be saved and reconsider whether this is still the case. While we three may have differing views on these topics. We recognize that there is room for disagreement based on the teachings of the word of God. We all recognize this to be an important topic in the baptism and communion are commanded to be observing Christchurch by the Lord himself while we may not understand them in the same way.

We acknowledge that we are brothers in Christchurch and that we each are seeking to follow him to be conformed to his image and that we must be willing to be teachable. A Christians journey never ends and we hope that this discussion will be enlightening and help you along our continuing faith journey brought this episode the words, ordinances, and sacraments may be used interchangeably depending on our own personal beliefs while recognizing that these terms are not always synonymous.

We also recognize that some traditions view a differing number of total sacraments or ordinances, but following the previous episode titled what about sacraments ordinances we will be limiting our discussion to the historic Protestant view that the sacraments ordinances comprise baptism by water in the Lord's supper for an extended discussion on this, we recommend listening to these previous episodes. Thanks for joining us fireflies in our previous episodes on the subject of sacraments and ordinances. We discussed our understanding of what non-LDS sacraments.

Ordinances were so before getting into specific passages about water baptism and the Lord's supper would like to discuss in general what the sacraments ordinances are what they signify, whether they are means of grace, etc. based on your understanding of Scripture is locked on back there, but hopefully we can just try to get our feet wet. Hey, it's a joke so yes okay yeah you a run for red nose, bad husband is a well, feet, legs, torso and head got his own learning will just sprinkle some sprinkling here. I mean, I won't dog you for it. But all right so Michael have a go first so I believe that the sacraments are primarily symbolic and the communion is symbolic of Christ flesh and blood that was shed for us and that baptism is a symbolism of Christ's death and his resurrection, which we are showing that we are also a part of we get baptized and I will a lot of thoughts on this, but I think for the most part I want to save a lot of it for later on in the discussion by you know, one of the things that you want to just touch him briefly I'll get more into it later is in Romans chapter 4 Paul talks about circumcision and how it was a seal of the righteousness that Abraham had biface so it was a seal of righteousness that he already had and I believe that that the sacraments specifically baptism acts in the same way so you would say that is as it is a sign and seal of our faith in Christ correct yeah I would say that is a sign and seal of our faith in Christ. But it is also a gift that that he gives us and it is a sign and seal of his love for us. So I think sky goes both ways.

There also and we look forward to hearing more of your thoughts. Later in the discussion.

So Paul would like to point to your opinion on this. So you asking what they signify whether their means of grace based on Argersinger Scripture still baptism that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change of heart. So God has regenerated the believer and given them a new heart, changes taking place that moves the sinner from the state of rebellion towards God to a state of love towards God and that change in my understanding perceives faith and for that reference John 646 baptism itself is is symbolic of new births of dying being buried and being raised again with Christ Jesus, and some new life according to Romans 6325 also sign a new covenant believers and the Lord's supper.

I think signifies and confers to believers who partake the benefits of Christ's mediation on our behalf. It is a time of reflection on the grace of God offered to offer the sacrifice of his son and I'm a real present sky when it comes to the Lord's supper and by that I mean that I believe that Christ is present in the Lord's supper spiritually, not corporately asked those that say that my reading of Scripture. In my experience might lead me to call it a time of real communion with my Lord in terms of whether the sacraments are means of grace. I would say yes. I believe the baptism of the Lord's supper are means of grace. There are not new memorials and symbols. God does work through them and know they are both memorials and symbols. There is there's a sense in which they are effectual in the life of the believer. And by that I mean God works through them to confirm and strengthen our trust in the Lord as great answer. Yeah, I really have too much disagree for their fall so yeah so the listeners by now you probably know that I'm a particular Baptist reform Baptist really want to call us. We halted search results of the 1677 1689 London Baptist confession of faith and also we have we have the Baptist catechism is kinda related to that. Sorry I grew thought with was equipped with what Paul says in preparing for this episode I was reading from bad links reform dogmatics and he talks about the various views of baptism and what they signify whether there effectual in the giving of the sacrament itself for, or whether it's only through faith. And so there's a lot of history behind that but basically but basically the reformed view which would also include my view is that the sacraments are sign and seal of the covenant of grace. The covenant of grace being that covenant that God made with man to which included providing a Savior, the Lord Jesus to to pay for the guilt for the debt and the guilt and the negative consequences of the fallen of sin, and so through covenants God through time is interacted with with mankind and baptism and the Lord's supper. They are signs and seals of the covenant of grace, so that their signs and that they signify that the reality underneath what they signify, so in baptism we already discussed very beautifully that it represents many things represents the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and also the fact that the believer dies him to sin and rises with Christ. This is shown in passages like Romans 6324 where Paul says do not know that all of us have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in newness of life and so we we do see that that union that union with Christ and and dying to stand in and being raised up with Christ. You also see passages like Titus chapter 3 sorry verse four Paul says that when the goodness and loving loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior. So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. So I think that passages is baptism signifies the cleansing a washing you know we think of water as a cleansing agent we use it to water clothings with water bodies and so it's signifying this spiritual in inward cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit. So there's the baptism by water kind of what John the Baptist taught and then he said there would be one greater than me would come after me, and he would baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost tonight and I think that is listing RC Sproul talk about baptism and he said that this is something that only the Lord the Savior Jesus Christ can perform that it's not something a man can do and that's why John the Baptist said that he was on. He was unworthy to do it so so this is, this does baptism of the Holy Spirit. This inward cleansing.

It's something that only God can do. So there's there's a lot of a lot of signs a lot of symbolism related to baptism and related to the Lord's supper and so will talk a lot more about specific passages that relate to baptism. These are just several that I picked out that we were that we didn't originally pick out for discussions. I thought I be good to to bring up but but the reformed view is not that's baptism of the Lord's supper are effectual in and of themselves, apart from faith. So there only their only effectual into salvation. Question 96, the Baptist catechism. It says how is the word made effectual to salvation. Sorry, let me skip that assignment. Question 98. So how do baptism and the Lord's supper become effectual means of salvation and the answer is baptism, the Lord some supper become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of his spirit in them that by faith receive them so it's it's the seconds are blessed by Christ there working the work of the Holy Spirit in us and they are effectual means of salvation to those who receive them so we believe that you actually united to the benefits of salvation, namely the person of Christ, his body and blood and all the re-all the redemptive aspects of the plan of salvation of the covenant of grace. All that is applied to the believer through face so you cannot jump in future. So, listening to talk. I suspect that there is if there are latter-day Saints or post-Latter Day Saints. Listening they might hear you say this in and and go hey Sam, the same thing we are right. So how would you say is the difference right. What was the difference between the position you're espousing with regards to baptism. For example, and baptismal regeneration are anchored question, so I so I saved a little excerpt from bad links reform dogmatics. I want to bring up in volume 4, page 521. If anyone wants to crosscheck me. So in here he talks about all the benefits of baptism including justification or the forgiveness of sins, regeneration repentance, the dying way the old self coming to life Fellowship. Not only was Christ himself at odds with the church. So always benefits that he's been talking that this chapter.

Having says this quote all these benefits have already been bestowed on the baptized person before baptism in the word of the gospel.

They were received on the part of the baptized by faith. But now these benefits are further signified and sealed to them in baptism. Hence the situation must not be pictured as one in which before baptism. Only a few, and in any case, not all these benefits are granted in faith, and that the one or ones still lacking are now bestowed in baptism for the word contains all the promises and faith accepts them all.

There is not a single grace that is not conveyed by the word and only by the sacrament incorporation into the body of Christ also occurs through faith and receives its sign and seal in baptism baptismal grace exists and can according to Scripture and reformed confession exist in nothing other than a declaration and confirmation."

So essentially in the LDS view of salvation, what I talked about in the intro is that the benefits of salvation being united to Christ, redemption, forgiveness of sins, etc. we we do we kind of have the same ideas with Latter Day Saints. When we think about baptism and communion are the Lord's supper, but these are not 100% tied to the sacraments.

In other words, you can have these benefits and you do have these benefits. If you have faith in Christ. Repentance and faith in Christ without receiving baptism and end of the Lord's supper. These things are signs and seals so they are sealed in the sense of like, you know, if you write a letter to somebody, like God, he takes the you put the letter in the envelope and he seals it. And so it's like it's not the letter never changed the content of the letter still the same. But when God puts his seal on it. He saying okay I'm confirming to this, I'm confirming that this is mind that this is legal. This is valid but it doesn't mean that the content of the letter was incorrect.

It just means that God is confirming to us through these outward sacraments to the believer into the body of Christ that that he will make good on his promise that his covenant will be kept on his part. So I hope that explains it. And it wasn't too long-winded yeah yeah does. Maybe diving a little bit deeper on this so and Michael jump in here.

If you have any thoughts on this question for you guys. After after you give your thoughts Paul okay so I was thinking earlier about my position on regeneration and when it occurs because I differ somewhat from some theologians within my own tradition and I and I do so based on what what I think I see in the Bible and I was thinking earlier like this. Would you guys say that that within the same theology that there is a definitive concept of regeneration like there is within Christian theology. I don't think I saw it as as a latter-day St., and I just wanted your thoughts on that.

I think that Latter Day Saints are all over the map when it comes to this sort of thing.

I mean, I talked to Latter Day Saints and I get all types of different answers that you know you we do the best we can and then Christ does the rest. And then there are some who say that grace is an enabling power that allows us to become something and so I just I just think it just varies depending on what Latter Day Saints you're talking to me there's something is anything set in the doctrine, the concept of being born again is there in the book of Mormon and so a lot of times I'll see people just say like oh yeah that's that's baptism you know the look at Nicodemus are not radios with John chapter 3 when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, and I think that's where that idea comes from and I think that's what I've seen most commonly is you know you you enter into the covenant through baptism and that's when you are born again, but I don't think I've seen music that were regenerated like you're talking about. I don't remember it is a concept being talked about using a particular word in Matthew yeah I agree notice a new term I learned. Once I was born again in learning my Christian theology but but I mean nobody since do talk a lot about like Michael said about being born again are being born of God. I just checked on the other subsite destroy quickly if they are cynical to guide to the Scriptures and I looked up the topic born again or born of God, and it defines it is to have the spirit of the Lord because a mighty change in a person's heart so that he is no more desire to do you will, but rather desires to seek the things of God.

And I think the passage that I remember most to me there's the conversion of the with the Lord over their names as sons of Ammon or something like that that and almond the younger sons of Ammon. I can remember most listens Messiah. Okay and has sons to grow so everybody sons and their and Nephi his sons was the one the talked of the norms yeah yeah is one of the sons of Mosiah yes yes yeah yeah Landers connection or so.

I remember only they had their miraculous, conversion expenses, where they were changed by God from being evil to feel good but I remember most was Mosiah three and a member on my mission in Brussels. I was I was reading that passage and how they just all felt this mighty change of heart and they wanted to make a covenant with God and I just fell to their knees and there's this outpouring of spirit in our members reading that be like man I wish I just had this this this feeling is born again, you know I wanted a costly feel like I never wanted to do evil, but only do good, but I just felt so burdened in a like I never lets up. It's like I never do what's right and I don't have this desire. If I do it's only momentary and I was just remember really craving this is born again experience and and I think some Latter Day Saints.

A lot of times I do associate it with water baptism will see there's a passage in here.

That's reference. Okay, whosoever believes on my words shall be born of me even of water and of the spirit. Mrs. Dr. Thomas 516.

I think there are other passages to that they appoint you like John 35 which will will address later but yeah I think I don't think they really go too deep into it into this idea of regeneration was just remembering to like you triggered this in the Matthew but remember going to institute and they were specifically telling everybody like hey you know, don't assume that being born again is going to be this huge life-changing experience. Sometimes it's really subtle and then they can talk about like the different kinds of light you know coming into your life like sometimes it's like flipping on a light switch for its real side in an obvious and sometimes it's more like the sun slowly coming up over the horizon and you don't really notice it as much and I felt always felt let down by that because I'm like I just felt like it was just making excuses for people who weren't having those kind of experiences you just seems really lackluster to me on a fever heard anybody say stuff like that but I remember them saying that it at Institute, I heard that analogy used in relation to like Revelation, you know, there were times when God would give Revelation a little bit as time or in sudden burst of light. But I never really heard about that in terms of conversion experiences. That's interesting yet because they would say that in a lot of times if you grew up in the church or something you know it wouldn't be is is obvious because you know it was just given few in a line upon line and precept upon precept, and so there is never just this huge moment of clarity for me. It felt like there is a huge moment of clarity cycling ahead one of those big born-again experiences bad seem like a lot of people didn't have that so surprised Mosiah three passage.

So I was really thinking about Matthew and Michael Matthew will we were on with with RFM he she brought up that passage right where is that some of the elder friends of the call with Elvis. I thought it was Benjamin's King Benjamin oh okay maybe not on so many #3 she brought up the passage where after Almon Wright who was a judging wanted to know was court right leaves and then starts his ministry and I are yes and no other yeah Elder, here's a nice preaching right in my RAM area become the book of Mormon. She leaves and runs away from from the wicked Priest is no end and goes to the waters Mormon Ryan starts his ministry in she has some some followers and she says let me know how you have you experienced that mighty change of heart and and if so do you feel so now and again.

If so stopping you from from coming and being baptized right that whole speech videos, fives are; yeah that's that's on the five so the RFM brought that up almost as if like to know just as there's this mighty change of heart and Elma asked him if you felt that tell me do you feel so now he was talking about. I like to see there's this opportunity to fall away after you been generated, but I guess that would be in the audio Scriptures where.com stucco the concept of regeneration might be presented in what I find interesting about that is that it is presented almost in a way where it precedes favoring the proceeds baptism on the part of those people. So I find it it's kinda striking that Latter Day Saints are so anti-Calvinist and anti-salvation by grace through faith only, so verse to that idea because it's almost like the book of Mormon percents that idea in that in that speech within Elma five and into what you were saying Michael about what they taught, and in instituting the seminary of the growth of the true status subtle. I remember when I first was leaving the LDS church.

I was on Facebook, dialoguing with people and there was this one Latter Day Saints who really tried to convince me that although I believe that I had had a born-again experience that was drawing me out of the LDS church. He was really trying to commence. No, no, you don't need to do justice.

It's not time to baptism as you say, I was baptized today, but I wasn't born again till I was 17. I remember him telling me so it's kinda interesting that that's kind of what were you referring to write Michael's, it could happen later in life and it doesn't it's not necessarily be miraculous but is not necessarily tied to baptism either the so my younger brother about this the other day actually. And he was saying that she actually believes in imputed righteousness as we been talking about it a lot, but he was kind of kinda believes it happens when you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost right after baptism. When you get the laying on of hands as single. What about when you get to have faith first right so what if you're a you don't even reach that spot yet so he is saying that according to his understanding. It could happen later in life is just because they say receive the Holy Ghost. And so you've got that invitation and you can do it any time after work. So yeah, that's one thing though that I never heard that before, but it just seems different when you talk to different Latter Day Saints for sure was interesting about when you send Michael's that you Latter Day Saints or & infant baptism as well write the book of Mormon specifically speaks against that pretty pretty strong terms right. That is something like if you think about your bound for hell right this is a die in the moment that you happen to be thinking that children need baptism in your desk. You going straight to hell. I sit here thinking what was the difference between no injury and is kind of an arbitrary you know where they just roll kids through primary and and everyone gets baptized at age 8 and in baptizing an infant right in terms in terms of know whether that role has been regenerated and been given a new heart and I know that wasn't the case for me so it's almost like they do almost whole disposition of a baptismal regeneration like a kinda baptizing the kind of forces you into the snow. Even if God hasn't been drawing you right and since it is very strange, when you start thinking about the theological details involved. It's really weird and messy when you try to think through the Mormon conception of things. Yet it is for sure and I was just thinking about how traumatic it would be if you know you have a change revelations in the pastor or policies. Instead, like Amy spoke with a limited understanding right when they reversed the priesthood ban on Blacks. For instance, and imagine if they got up and said we we spoke with a limited limited understanding the age of accountability is nine you know that that verse in the book of Mormon would actually be condemning everybody who who baptized children at eight.

That's interesting. So this is interesting like good baptized children. Kind of.

With the recognition that in the confirmed member in kind with the recognition that they may not be converted. I guess assisted living might do that. And so this is sort of similar rights of the maybe the way that those who who are panel Baptists do things right were were going to do this.

This ordinance, the sacrament on this child and and then try to raise them up in the right way and hope that that they become converted at some point in the future. This in and yet they were they would decry that kind of view but that's that's really what they're doing with a girl's just not infants. While too old to its depending on the panel Baptists.

The Latter Day Saints don't they don't know they don't believe in original sin, so they don't think baptism has anything to do with Original Sin. It's only personal sin and a lot of so like Catholic teaching and Lutheran teaching. I do believe that baptism does kind of it. It does undo that the negative effects of Original Sin, but it's not for personal sin.

So it's it's interesting just because they have different applications of what they think it's actually effectually for conveying it within that sacrament itself in on any so so with this for panel Baptists, and maybe it would be viewed. Sort of like a convenient grace for that person right it does it undoes Original Sin such that later on, but even then they're not fatal. Baptists generally are not Arminians right so they're in there and is still look to God to do the work of drawing that person, and later in their life to Christ. It gets complicated because, like for instance with Lutherans. They do believe that faith is actually a gift that God does give the infant through baptism and they do actually grant them salvation and regeneration and all those things and so it's kind of more like I think from what I understand from one of what I read of Lutheran theology.

The ideas that they are truly saved.

The infant and its praying that they keep that salvation but they keep the spirit that they continue in the faith. For further panel Baptists.

The reforms like reform Presbyterians are Dutch reformed. It's it's they see it Mormon a covenantal way can like circumcision, you know like like we like I Michael you said that circumcision represented the sign and seal righteousness of Abraham and so all his descendents were given circumcision but not all of them received what the signs signified so received circumcision, but they did not necessarily receive the regeneration and seal righteousness that Abraham had, so it's something that they give to their children knowing that they might not actually receive what the sign is pointing to do so with beta Baptists perform data Baptists. They give the sign to their children, hoping and praying that God will work in their heart and save them and give them what the baptism signifies, but many of them recognize and and they experience children that are baptized it receives the receive baptism as an infant taught in the church, but then they are never saved in the day they don't lose salvation but they they just show that they're not part of the deal lacks or the part of the new covenant membership in on the elect elect people of God. So there's outward members and inward members and so if you're baptizing for in your an outward member in the church of the visible church if you muster saved by the work of the Holy Spirit. You're not a member of the inward church or the invisible church so there's a lot of it with reform panel Baptists it's it's it's a different kind of mentality are different kind of apologetic like a Lutheran would use for baptizing infants. They believe it's more like it. It effectually does remove Original Sin so you want to do it as early as possible to make sure that the child to save and that's kind of like what Augustine and St. Augustine.

He believed in his his theology, brought to the church so that's white stuck with Roman Catholicism for a long time and it still does today so yeah there's there's a lot of stuff you can really get into, and I was and I love talking at the stuff but I don't come pretty far afield and that's that's my fault but I was trying to raise questions that I think might be in the Latter Day Saints or post-Latter Day Saints mind as they listen to us. Sure know the greater good questions to ask you guys both the question as well just because I think just to borrow a term from James White that I learned recently. I guess I consider myself sort of imputation asked.

Maybe even a hyper imputation asked think that would be an end to know me and actually are so hyper maybe just left the coffee you know what it was. It was Mr. Penn okay was not. Let's not invite him and that is okay with the spirit of carbonated contention yeah so so for my understanding Christ you he didn't just die for us.

He lived for us and you. That's what you see. Like in Matthew chapter 31. When Christ gets baptized. He says to John the Baptist, yells, suffered to be so now for becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.

And so he was doing this to fulfill righteousness to be righteous on our behalf. So what I understand, and I could be wrong and maybe you can help me out here, but my understanding is when we leave like Romans four says over and over again that Christ righteousness is credited to us at faith and when we believe in. So it would include the righteous act of him being baptized as well. I think I she said that when I was a brand-new ex-Mormon is that Christ right Christ. Baptism is imputed to us as well.

So is that something that's way off base to you guys.

First of all, so that is specific of his baptism more of his entire life of righteousness is imputed to us both. I've thought about the deposit righteousness of Christ. Definitely being imputed to us. I hadn't really thought much of specifically about his baptism, but I know that he did so in humility and submission. And so, I think, in doing so he was obeying the father and that was part of his positive righteousness.

I think that is I think I do think that makes logical sense that it that the positive righteousness through that act of obedience is imputed to us.

Okay… This is what I was thinking to but I think the end and I think he is a kind of answered it already, but just because of the way I think the way my brain is wired am having a hard time crossing the bridge from Christ's righteousness is is imputed to us to another act. Afterwards regenerates us that makes sense as a like once you have Christ's righteousness, and it happens at faith, then how can you add to that in any way.

Yes I listen before I'm not a baptismal regeneration is that I don't believe the regeneration happens at baptism, the good Kimberly follower precedes faith that the gift of a new heart has to take place at the think it's part of the drawing of God by the believer to give them the new heart, so that they can respond in faith to do the call. Otherwise they're still in a state of of hating God and being in rebellion to God so that new heart has to come temporarily. First, I think, and then once that takes place.

Baptism is an act of faith is an active obedience to Christ because it's a commandment that Christ gave which were given to later. It's a commandment that his disciples give to those that they are making disciples within the New Testament as an act of faith is an active of obedience and it does is a means of grace and that as I said before, it confirms and strengthens our trust in Christ as our Savior and trusting in the idea that that as you send Michael that his his righteousness is imputed to us and so and I'm not a regeneration is when it comes to baptism. I think that happens prior to it yet so I think to what you think Matthew and if you're both on board with that.

You're like a hop skip and a jump away from being reformed while you know you definitely get us to reform the idea that regeneration precedes faith because it would mean you just look at my favorite passages are Colossians 2, Ephesians 2, Romans eight where it says you were dead in your trespasses and sins know a dead man can't just mad and I can't get up and start walking. It talks about how we were raised up with Christ.

The we being believers, not everybody in all not this idea in convenient grace for everybody is renal brought to life. It's only those who believe in Christ are brought to life so that we can come to faith without having a change of heart first so I think Paul did a great job explaining that worms were in mind differ slightly with you.

Michael is is in the idea that baptism is his only symbolic because I do think God is doing real work there. Just as he does real work in the generation it's it's not a work that saves but it's it's a work that confirms the trust of the believer in his Lord were in her Lord right and so I think that there's there's truth in the idea that Christ's righteousness imputed to us, but I think I hold a pretty high view of the sacraments that you can get into some believers can get into thinking along the lines of, you know. Also, there's regeneration and that the proceeds faith and therefore you know someone really does need to be baptized, and I think that if you if you go that far, that I think you're outside of the teaching of the New Testament it will. I'm not even sure you're Christian, right down to full-blown Mr. K #on you. Michael and his person.

If a person goes that far and says you know the believer doesn't need to be baptized at all.

I don't think you're teaching the New Testament about yeah and I agree with you. By the way, I think the baptism you people should be baptized, and I guess because I want to clarify my position a little bit soon as I don't have as low of a position of the sacraments as you may think I do. I don't think that it's merely symbolic either. I just think that's what I think of when I described them, I guess, but I guess if I were to do in analogies, like if a man may love a woman and that love is real, but then when when that man marries the woman. It is like a sign and seal that allows you know it's a way of saying you are mine and I think that when we were baptized in the sacraments. They are a gift from God to us and it's a sign from him that he loves us and that we are his. And I think that it really can empower us and help us with our sanctification.

I think it does make a real change in us as well.

I just don't think that it affects your brings salvation about or regeneration and I would agree with that income. You see a lot online people to people who are trying to engage in evangelism apologetics to Latter Day Saints will take that position almost as a unit has a has to be a contrary position to Latter Day Saints saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.

So the site was not necessary for salvation.

Therefore, nobody has to do it. Really, you know, they take that really contrary position rather than rather than getting into the nuance of what the New Testament actually teaches you, I agree. I mean there's just such a desire to feel something that is completely you know hundred 80° different from Mormonism and thing is Mormonism is not wrong about everything right. Right. And that's where I think it's important to get them to get into the nuance so something roof and then we have we exhausted the questions I think we've exhausted that one no sweat question number one is really good discussion. I was kind of hoping that something like that happen because these are, like pretty cut and dry like a Woody thing with this passage. What he meant that so I'm glad you brought those up was really good into this of the out of love to hear from you.

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