Overcoming SHAME With Fred Anson Part 2

This is Chris shoes with the Christian perspective podcast with Chris use. We encourage our listeners to engage the culture with Jesus Christ your chosen Truth Network podcast is starting a just a few seconds.

So enjoy it share but most of all, thank you for listening to The Truth Podcast Network this is Truth Network a firefly support here. Welcome back to outer brightness going to bring you an interviews we conducted with Fred Anderson. Fred is the driving force behind better spread the Christian blog where bigger share the bread that they so freely and graciously received before Fred converted to Christianity. In the 1970s. He was an atheist.

Early in his life as a Christian, he became enmeshed in a high demand Christian cult called the shepherding movement. Fred visit outer brightness to share a story and what he learned about mind control from his time in the shepherding movement and what he learned from leaving that group at times during the interview.

Fred is animated about his advice in the ways that high demand religions control their inherence often times without there even being aware of the fact that there giving away their autonomy to the organization. This is all part of my journey as well. I shared in season one episode 15 and 16. How when I returned from my LDS mission. I went online to try to find answers to some of the questions I had about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints within a year I was involved in a private discussion board made up of around 10 to 12 people who were all active Latter Day Saints performer Latter Day Saints. I remember one particularly heated exchange on the board between a woman who was an active Latter Day Saints and the man who'd left the LDS church and become an atheist.

The thread was about the ways in which the LDS church and its culture controls and restrains women from reaching their full potential. In this way, the man argued the LDS church exhibits cultlike behavior. The woman I mentioned pushed back against that idea. She argued that since she freely participates in the LDS church and culture and does not feel constrained by that he could not tell her that she was being controlled reading that thread was a watershed moment for me. A part of my mind open up and I could see that the man was correct about the LDS church and its culture, mind control, but remained in the LDS church for the next two years. Why, because I also took to heart what the woman had said I thought that if I participated with eyes wide open and by my own free choice I could be alert to and avoid any aspects of mind control, I believe the LDS church was true, so I thought I could stay. I was wrong. Towards the end of my time in the LDS church as I had conversations with my wife Angela about possibly leaving the Mormon was so wrapped up in my identity that I told her I couldn't imagine ever being anything else.

Even with eyes wide open to participation. My mind was conditioned to be closed.

Please listen to Fred's advice and consider what he says.

I think you'll find that he has a heart for anyone entrapped in a high demand organization, whether it's in a religious commercial clinical or self-help context.

As always, thank you for listening and check the show notes for how you can read better spread or get in contact with Fred Hansen addressing some of the similarities between the shepherding movement, and in Mormonism. So we we all left and we talked about what it is like leaving with will is like recovering I want to ask you what it was like recovering from the Colts having you deal with regret, shame and confusion will talk about what was really happening when anybody leaves a high demand group, whether Removed manner, or Mormonism, or something else, and what were talking about work. You're going through the grieving process and because I kind of anticipated this this (I print out an article because I can never remember what stages of grief marks… Written off the stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and accepting okay denial was this can't possibly be right. I'm Fred Hansen, smart and not very smart. I'm I'm I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I can't be in cold words you know anger you know you pass out in a slight moment – I am Fred Hansen and I may be, you know, a sharp guy. But guess what I will sleep angry Misty.

Those people trade those people bit that said they were looking out for my best interest. My gosh tithing money that I paid all those laws that I mowed all that time that I spent an angry and I'm going to go after them well. Suffice to say I was I was angrier than a junkyard dog bargaining will you know maybe it wasn't all that bad. Maybe there are some things that maybe I can kind a like take take the good parts of of of shepherding it and just kind of merge it into something else and and kinda make this thing work and then depression all my goodness wow when all this stuff begins to hit and you begin to accept it yet. It's hanging it is really really hard whenever I hear a Christian state to enact more or say to me.

Wow, you must've been so happy to be out here group site. No, not even I felt like my pot like I had wasted 11 years of my life I felt like I had invested in something where I got no return at all. I'm devastated, I'm destroyed, you know I've got nothing in you telling me that I should be happy know this and how works hateful so you know you get past that and all of a sudden this takes a while okay guys this can take years.

This this can take a long, long time where you begin to accept it. Go yeah this really did happen. There were some good things there were some bad things there were some things that I would never do again. There are some things that I bet. Frankly, I would do again.

There are some lessons I can learn to guess why. On the other side of this.

I can see that God used it and I'm wiser, more rounded you know of a better person as a result of any if nothing else guys he got.

They got happy Fred because he stared right so you know I mean it that there must've been some value in it.

I learned how I glossed on earlier. I learned how to have a relationship.

I learned how to get relationships maintain those relationships.

I learned what it meant to live in covenant, which basically means you make a commitment to the other person and you do what you say you're going to do so.

We disseminate your question might be, I would also add, let me just throw this tank is always through the for me, not same for everybody but the experts do say, yeah, this is kind for everybody. Most ex-cultists need to go get some type of therapy. Now that therapy might be a single session. In my case it was several years because I had a law I'm I mean a lock of anger to work through. Also you have to be program which means you gotta figure out you got unravel at all you know we are talking about that that that snapping that that the thought limiting Colts indoctrinate their members with certain ways of thinking. Some of my thinking was just so messed up I mean a you know I'm embarrassed even to even talk about some of the ways that I used to think so for me I had to have a ghost begin getting out of the tank. I had to go to a third-party and say hey in the group I was taught this and you kind of is this how like normal people do things and he go now it's not. Let's kind of unpack that and take a look at it and that took a long time and a you know a lot of it. They bake in recovery. We have a saying we need to have the And a lot of that process is very very painful. For example, that just today I had annexed Mormon in my Exmoor recovery group accused me of being likable on Mormon lot being like a Mormon bishop. Okay, why because the group has standards.

The group has rules you cannot you just like you can't go to church take off lawyer close and run naked through the congregation.

If you're in a Facebook recovery group. There are rules Jeep you need to abide by and as an ad man.

It's my job to make sure that you abide by well a lot of ex-Mormons. The plate standards and boundaries as quote unquote warm it and it can shoot I'm talking about here. This software is buggy's. There's nothing wrong with standards. There's nothing wrong with boundaries.

But the question is, are they healthy standards are the reasonable standards are they healthy boundaries in my control groups. There are not, you know, the requirement that a guy forsake his family forsake his wife and kids so that he can go mow his shepherd's lawn in the neglect his own family so that the shepherd can take care of this family is not a healthy standard okay good.

It's it. I know it's a little nuance but can you see the difference between the two data packet that I can see it was let's test if you've actually reached that healthy place fragment when we got on the video tonight. Did you look at me and say who is the Skippy of course is my hair long enough that the screeching hippie status yet to cross your mind by like what political party did want to MSA smart man called Don asked to accelerate so so Fred a lot of the stuff that you're saying really.

I just just really messes with my experience as well and in talking about how it's probably going to get it and to get their immune close ideas and those feelings just hold on for so long. I remember going to California is a pretty new ex-Mormon and actually sitting down and getting to talk to you and just thinking like man this is amazing this guy really understands what I'm going through and and you are leaving a cult. It just feels like your you feel so alone. Nobody understands exam going through and I'm sitting there talking you and we had this part of his Conversation, they just keep having these crazy dreams. You know these items like these nightmare situations and you're lucky I have those to you to only those crazy so went back like transitioning into healthy Christian environment and it was granted with really hard because I had to.

I was so entrenched in it. In order to get to the church that I'm now when I went through for church and none of them were good enough, and the reason why none of them were good enough, is because the measure that I was comparing them to was that the shepherd okay there it was in people.

I know this. You they thought I was weird and they thought I was weird because I was acting like a shepherding movement guy in a foursquare church. I was acting like a shepherding guy and assemblies of God church I was acting like a shepherding guy and this nondenominational church that had never even heard of the shepherding movement and you know I mean we were talking about the incredibly high standard site. While these people like I II can't believe that of that they groom the way they do and that they dress the way that they do in and by golly, these guys they they don't wear ties church, you can't do that yet you can't go to church without it. I got your don't you realize that you you need to you need to dress up for the Lord, you need to show the proper respect. You know, I mean heck your your your like your part of the royal priesthood, you need to act like you know I mean come on people with the program here and now playwright now people you wouldn't catch me dead in the entire church. It's just simply not going to happen. They didn't need to change.

I did. I needed to if I'm going to be in a foursquare church. I need to figure out what foursquare culture is like if I'm going to be in a lousy alignment of the Assemblies of God up by the way that those Assemblies of God people pretty weird casino but anyhow that that's just kind of equipment but if I'm going to be interest in Assemblies of God church. I need to figure out what Assemblies of God culture risk which in my case meant I need to loosen. I need to to be a little bit more easy-going. I needed to be more go with the flow and lower the standards like quite a bit and kind of rather young Mike. You brought up the bold rule about this. How about loving my neighbor in my church by accepting them the way they are, rather than expecting them to come up to my list. Say the word. Michael standards which even I couldn't perform at nobody can. Nobody could could perform at those high standards of right so maybe I need to just relax and just give people a break and let people be people and how about this one about this one. Christians about letting them be wrong about letting them have opinions that I don't agree with how well letting them be. Maybe like a political party that I don't agree with or holding to political views. I don't agree with got really quiet in here did because were talking about stuff were Christians just to get out okay.

Mormons are they just love to get out that iron rod and say this is the way it's got to be and you know that's how I was coming from my cold was this is the way it's got to be well guess what Fred no, it doesn't have to be that way. If it's not sin if the Bible doesn't define it is sin if it's not immoral. The Bible doesn't say that it's a moral, maybe you should cut these people a break. Maybe you know maybe it's okay not work time church. I don't really even seen wearing ties church view Karen okay to disseminate your question, Breanna aspect. I think you yeah I mean you get every X cultist is going to feel like a fish out of water and tell the kind get the rope every church. Here's the thing. Here's a hard reality, whether we like it or not, every single church in every congregation has its own flavor has its own culture so when we come into a new church body will need to figure out what that is and we need to match into it. That doesn't mean that we we that we have to lower our standards or be anything other than what we are, but we need to appreciate what the culture is and we need to accommodate and be understanding of that and keyword be empathetic what it is we don't even have to agree with that. I mean, you know even today. Today was my first day back as I fully vaccinated people was my first day back in church today and I gotta tell you, I heard a lot of weird stuff. I heard I heard a lot of things it in my own church which I have been attending now since 1992. In this particular congregation.

I heard a lot of stuff that I don't agree with. I heard a lot of opinions expressed that I don't agree with. But you know something I love these people and I love exactly right where they're at and I think that some these people pretty weird and I love them in the weirdness if I'm going to this is this is something that untestable everybody's mind, but I'm in a state if you're going to love the whole person.

You have to love both the good parts and the bad parts and that's that latter part the Christians tend to not like the site. Glad I I don't need to love the bad parts of me. Not that they need to change site do they do they so yeah we all need to change.

I agree I need to change. I nobody knows that more than me but if I'm going to love them, the way that Jesus loves that right now, this moment, this second this millisecond I have to love them as a whole person, not as 1/2 a person if I'm only loving the good parts in somebody I'm not loving the whole person, only loving the parts that I like so you know there is I want a little bit long but I hope that the good that answers questions so when your next cultist going to a church of the good parts and parts. You don't have to agree with it but it least know expect to be uncomfortable. Expect to feel like a fish out of water spec to have Steve make you don't feel a lot at first.

But you know something, and Michael, you wrote an excellent article on this. This to will pass. It may not be easy, but it's worth it. So there is yeah Think Different that's that's great.

I was reminded why you're talking answer my last question about the parent parable of the good Samaritan where the good Samaritan comes by and brings the life in a practically lifeless person and brings him and takes it to the end so they can take care of them. That's kind of our job is that you know if we if he takes one in and we say well you know you if we judge them for the injuries they had like while working. You've done this so you know I did you what did you get hit, you know, like when you protect yourself better.

Something enough when assets are Java jobs. He looked as a church is to help them to know recuperate into to be healed so we need a way to love them as a savior does so that's beautiful. Thank you for that listening to our brightness contrast from students who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn winning 7-2 million national exception. Michael same thing that is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ basin for teaching the name of our podcast. Our brightness reflects John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.

Thus, our brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between.

Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. I wanted asked to the shepherding movement so is could you explain little bit more about the changes they've made probably since you've left have actually gone to reform or repentance of some of the things that they've done in the past and do you think this is possible with the Latter Day Saints church to think they could go through some kind of reform to make them more in line with Christian teachings Matthew that is a wonderful, wonderful question, recommend a book to everybody used to listing this back is just it is just a good book given me that the topic they were talking about.

There's a book by guy named I want in raw and if you join our Mr. Enroth unfortunately is now deceased. But before he died he beat bequeathed his his two works called churches of abuse in recovering from churches of the abuse he he bequeathed them to the public domain so you can get PDF copies freebie.pdf copies of the book. If you like paper. You can still get the paper version up on Amazon. But if you join our group called X Mormon Christians on the Facebook group. That's it.

Just search on X Mormon Christians, or for sure the slang for short handle is extant Christians.

We have both of those books in PDF format. In our file library in the second book in that series called recovering from churches of abuse.

Mr. Enroth goes into great detail about how the shepherding movement reform. There's another book. This is kind of likely the scholarly watershed book very hard to find now very extensive call the shepherding movement by guy named by the name of David asked more, you know. Good luck finding that last time I had Amazon they didn't have any copies but he wrote what's considered to be the definitive movement on our movement and of the two books, the more book is more interesting because he goes in. The more detail. But here's the bottom line and this is what people don't appreciate. I don't think that most Mormons appreciate leaders in churches final time leaders and churches disagree all the time. I mean, yes, in terms of the unifying principles like you know stating the essential doctrines of faith through an agreement but in terms of policy and how things that should be done, maybe how things should be taught this bicker and fight this back and you know they rub each other the wrong way.

Just like the rest of us and I have no doubt that that's going on in the Mormon church will guess what it was happening in the shepherding movement did. Did you know dump Fred the guy that's that's mowing the lawns not having this lawnmower because he was so low and that the hierarchy noticed. Now I didn't know until I read the David asked more book but what happened was in what was it I think 88, 89, one of the leaders of Derek Prince who you know. Larry talked about Francis Schaeffer, the other guy who was a huge influence on me was Derek Prince of the of the five guys he was the guy who had the greatest impact of the five guys in the shepherding movement but even today. If you talk to Fred Asner going to get some Derek Prince disc as the guy was so brilliant so biblically sound.

But he left the movement he was done and the reason why he was done is because he was seen that the abuse the controlling nature of what we were doing. He was beginning to see that that some of the stuff that we were doing was quite candidly not biblical. He was actually contrary, biblical, and of all the people would recognize that it would be Derek because of of the five guys he was the most biblically literate of them all. And so he left it at the time I got excited. I was shocked I was you know we were talking about your world crumbling it in front of you. That was the big one now back to Paul's question about snapping and the thought stopping okay when this happened. Does anybody want to guess what my thought process was will obviously use pollen in the air. Derek Prince of all people. I thought that he was the section per prove that this just goes to show that the devil get anybody. Why because the thought that Derek Prince might be seeing something that Franson didn't see was something that I simply could not possibly comprehend. So Derek left the movement he saw the bad stuff and he called began per had no close this thing is wrong. It was a big deal. Christianity today wrote about it charisma magazine wrote about it. Everybody wrote about it. He was off the street with Don. He even went so far is to purchase certain books and certain page from his his catalog because he felt that he had been teaching. Guess what false doctrine, even today.

You just simply cannot get that stuff it's impossible will guess what is doing this one guy. This is the funny thing is doing is one Diane snacks and one guy starts just to start thinking clearly. Other people due to an the other four guys kind of had a you know. Note no Potter joke intended. They kinda had a come to Jesus moment movement moment went, witnessed all of a sudden. All of a sudden those parameters, those that limiting thinking guess why they were under two VOIP exporters always want to know will what about leaders today. The day they really believe this stuff just my opinion. Yeah, they do, yet they do, they may have their own set of issues and doubts but but in general when they say yes that we we really do believe that the gospel in the principles of the gospel, they mean it. I have I have no reason or to believe that they're being insincere. Why because I believe that there are eight in that snap psychological statement: I will talk about and they simply will not allow their their thinking to fall outside this process okay so what happened was one and it was like watching dominoes fall guys. It was I was out of the movement by 89 x 95 9D. The movement was dead. Okay, but one by one the churches began to began to leave the movement. The leaders began to move. Leave the movement and the thing was over.

And guess what each one guy was saying as he was leaving he was saying the same stuff that Derek Prince was he was saying were doing some stuff is not good were doing some stuff that's not right were teaching some doctrine that is just simply not biblical. We have hurt people. We have harmed people we have damaged marriages families lives. This is not a good thing that we have done and they had the keyword integrity to come forward and say were not doing this anymore and what happened was the guys were still in it. There were still in that cycle that snap psychological state, we are still in there were still holding onto a with oh you know both hands as hard as though you know this is my life I've invested thousands of dollars and thousands of hours and everything that I had this thing going through that anger and denial process with Mike and I were talking about earlier and long, long story short so the guys are in that movement when one guy would leave the other guy that was left he would assume control of back ice churches.

I was out of it but if you stop and think about it this is like this is like a really good comedy.

This is like movie watching the sky stumble and bumble and fall over each other until was finally down the last guy Charles Stimson and finally in 1990. Charles Stimson just said just represents the said guys it's over. He had a meeting and I think it was Minneapolis or something like that where they all got together one of my friends was there. He told me about it. He said it was wow absolutely well because the guys that were denial just simply couldn't let it go, but Charles Stimson literally got up on stage instead, it is over.

I'm not your pastor, your pastor doesn't report to me you don't report to me just walk guys. We only have one shepherd and his name is Jesus Christ and the movement was done it was done and over. So what Enroth did in his book and what David Ashmore did in their book as they kinda did the postmortem and to Charles Simpson now talks about it needed to. Charles always had a very good sense of humor, and he said that he just spent the next couple decades apologizing.

There until finally his wife said okay enough is enough. You gotta stop apologizing Charles, I mean you know you've apologized to the same guy three times now know that this test in so yes armament reform now the question is can the Mormon church reform, like we did the other one that always comes up is the worldwide Church of God Herbert H.

R. J. Armstrong. I can remember, but they also reform so you have to examples of former cultic groups that have now reformed so now of course it anybody using Mormon studies. Manuel could happen here and candidly, I don't think it can.

Let me tell you why forests start.

We were never as you know, you can say a lot of things about the LDS church.

But the thing that you can't say is that it doesn't run like a well oiled machine. It runs like a well oiled machine. I mean, my goodness. We thought that we were. We set the bar high in terms of organization and that type of thing will the LDS church makes us look like fools. In terms of structure, organization, getting stuff done. I mean come on guys, if you want to get something done. Want to get the job done given to more in the really get it done in the going to get it done. Well, let's just just say it the way it is okay so there's that part of it.

Also, when you got it. We did not have a $124 billion portfolio that could be soon countersued challenged reach challenge and then soon, we challenged and received again that there just work assets to this battle because each congregation maintain its own portfolio of of its own books its own standards. The only thing we are responsible for armament is not enough taking that high paying the time. So what would happen if is our church. For example, would pay a tithe to our pastors church to help them with their ministry and they would they would pay a tithe to the church above them. Well, the Mormon church. If you look at the way that they're structured financially. It's all one big pot.

Everybody pays to Salt Lake City and then Salt Lake City decides who's going to get what and so in terms of financial stuff this things just to entangle on top of that the skies wow. I mean, you know the level of mind control that we were under in the shepherding is not I'm not I'm not trying to be with the word overly critical of anything but the stuff that I see like up and that the debate groups of on Facebook. It was just not that extreme. You wouldn't have people in our movement that were willing to fall on their own source to to say the movement just just didn't happen so I don't I just don't see it happening on top of that the LDS church knows the history of the art LDS church and the community of Christ and they know what happened when the art LDS church began to reform and frankly by all accounts they did it way too fast and way too radical and that there are LDS church just absolutely imploded and splintered and turned fractured in a million ways to I think that there is some reform coming to the LDS church.

Yes I do, I wouldn't be part of a group called Mormon Reformation. If I didn't believe the reform was possible, but it's to be like all things in the LDS church is to be very very slow and at the end of the day.

I think theologically because of the LDS church is both a sociological what cold and a theological coal.

I don't see the LDS church ever becoming fully the biblically Orthodox, and the reason I can say that is all point to the community of Christ. They're not completely biblically Orthodox. They they've done a better job of posturing themselves so that they look like they are. But, for example, their doctrine of the Trinity is not really the doctrine of Trinity. It's more like the type of Trinity that you see in the book of Mormon where it's it's kind of a little bit Trinitarian and kind of little bit mode listed.

So yeah, I've kind of a long-winded answer, but the short answer is no. I just don't see the LDS church reforming the way that the discipleship church did there. There are still remnants of the shepherding movement left their churches called known as remnant churches. In fact, that the church that I am now is one of those remnant churches okay but it's is nothing, absolutely nothing like things were back in the shepherding movement. I mean I can bet the senior pastor of our church. I pulled into a space. I disagree with.

I've told him that you know worse he would never you would never say shepherding movement from you know I do it, you know, I'm sorry but that's just national my radar and it's it's really really different church. I would say that a church that learns from its mistakes. For example, Matthew. I know that you're in a reformed Baptist church, and I would you know I would packed you guys on the back and give you kudos I mean you guys have really when you look at the history of your movement.

You really learn from your past mistakes and you guys are great, great Christian denomination. As a result, you know, I could, I could pick other denominations that say the same thing but there just wasn't that the key thing was the control that that control that my control.

Just had to go now. I should also work were you know, pretty deep into the stable, tearing out that there are people you know my old friends that they get very upset with me when I say the shepherding movement was my control. Local they they don't like me using language like that and the reason for that is tightly I I suspect that this is an established rearguard. The people that are in the lower echelons of the organization shepherding movement pattern very different experience of the shepherding movement, then the people that were in the upper because one of the privilege know the reason why I wouldn't be surprised to walk into the church office building and walk into a wardroom where the brethren are having a meeting and seeing them arguing with each other is because as you move in a a a a a high control organization when you move up the hierarchy, the higher you get, the more you're able to say in the freer you're able to think. Now this guy down here who just got baptized last week you met her total line body. This is this is what the gospel principle says and you know boom boom boom, you better believe the words in this book that the guys that are changing the words in the next revision of gospel principles that I sitting atop the guy sitting in the church office building so again the experience that a moment, to pick on my favorite Mormon apostle who I think the whole entire world knows that that I'm a total fan boy for Intergraph works okay on Diederich F door. Trust me the way that he talks in the way that he thinks in the church office building. This can be very different than if that new initiate just got baptized last week could talk his experience of the Mormon church is very very different.

The neck I first start, you don't have millions of people. Adoring you just because you have the title apostle okay so index another another thing fighting against the reform of the Mormon church because guys who are sitting in that wardroom atop who are you know eating their chocolate cherries that Steve Benson tells us that they do it for meetings and in doing that and you know the proper hierarchical order based on tenure.

Okay the guys that are are talking about these things, talking about the next set of revisions of gospel principles are having a very different experience with the Mormon church in the guy who's in the Gospel doctrine class whose goal was in chapter 1 page 1 chapter 1 of the book so there you go again long-winded answer but but I hope it's helpful and I would recommend.

I would strongly recommend that everybody who's listening to this interview. Even if you don't finish the interview pick up recovering from churches that abuse by Ron and Ron and read it will not only did an education about our movement will probably get an education about your own your own church as well.

So there is having on caring balance scale kind of thing you have going on with me thanking you and going on, they can have Brandon it's it's a funny question because of the honest answers I have too much going on and I'm actually trying to find ways to throttle things back and you know some of you guys are in my Facebook group right put up the silly tips of the day.

A nice one of the principles was due few things but do them well and I came to your my own realization that I was doing too much. I had too much going on I had too many plates spinning at one point you ready for this. I had I was doing better spread which is my website. I was doing Mormon Reformation Day were, you know, the part of the whole Mormon Reformation thing, which is now been going for nearly a decade. I was doing. We agree with Maroney 818 day and I'm in IT and I'm I've got a reputation for being a pretty good Facebook administrator I was administrating like five or six groups and it was this just is too much so if the end of the day. My focus is going to be one that you guys are very familiar with because you're all published authors on it which is going to be better spread that's that's my website URL is very simple. Beggars bran all run together.work.

Every person on here except for Breanna Hansen hit Breanna has an article on the website okay. I think all you've done a lot for now Matthew you been to you and Mike have lost count of how many I publish from you. So that's it would be best to be the big thrust going forward. The thing that keeps me busy is Facebook and see him administrating the if I forget anybody any of them just jump in, guys, I've got X Mormon Christians. I've got the X Mormon Christians manhood Warren. I've got the Mormon underground, which is a new one for just kind of putting things out and that the the public domain.

Finding ways to move around the. The information control that the LDS church as Mormon missionaries under I know I'm forgetting some folks dictating from an asbestos yeah yeah which is Nelson adjunct of from a chapter that I wrote no book culturing the good news with the with Mormons. Chapter 12 I think it was where were a bunch of the guys that are a heck of a lot smarter than I am. Wrote chapters about how to reach which Mormons with the gospel and I wrote the chapter on Internet evangelism. So we have a coaching website, it seems pretty popular that people seem like where we talked about how to to do that initially. The idea was that limited to the Internet but it's kind of spread out little bit. Now people talk about face-to-face evangelism and everything else in the sun and that's one of my favorite groups. To be honest with you because I can kind of take the leash often and let my weird sense of humor romper little bit weak.

We do funny means the cash caption contest and stuff like that. So basically, beggars bran and Facebook to be my focus going forward. And yeah that's that's pretty much yet.

I I hope to get invited back to the faith.

After Mormonism conference after Tobit we were able to do that live last year and I gotta tell you guys doing that actually meeting people face-to-face is nothing like just meeting people in the flesh, and realizing that I have found that when need you to meet people in person their way better mean that just by magnitude of 101228 Their Way better person than you ever thought they would. They would ever be on Facebook or on the Internet so I I'm hoping to get to that again this year and other than that just doing my job. I do have a full-time job and eight in IT and also that this thing called marriage and I hope to keep that going in there you go. And of course made my my second religion is major league baseball nationally football so there is I've got the the place just keeps spinning and no Michael I don't want to talk about yesterday's Angels and Houston Astros day so there you go.

He's grinning is great. We got bombed 16 to 2 but as well and it is a good day. Thank you Fred. We really appreciate Daniel on and where were so blessed to have your experience, your wealth of knowledge. Your help in helping us to witness Latter Day Saints. So I really do think he follows the time you spent outside of work and family to help us to share the gospel. Latter Day Saints so just thank you again for coming on and then we really recommend check a beggars bread.com for all of our listeners. If I am liking this book in this real quick. I mean III talk a lot about the reading different things and making a point of reading things that disagree with you but I can't emphasize this enough. I mean, the bottom line here People's nor Christian and our absolute standard because we have made that decision because every single one of us. Trust me, I guys I the last thing I wanted to be was a Christian I wanted. I was an atheist for reason I was raising a stream and I walked away from. I walk away angry and man but God had other plans. You know like Matthew, I'm a good Calvinist boy and God wasn't let me know why I have no clue. I have been to that to this day.

It is a mystery I would let me go.

To be honest, I was not a very nice status in the diet that the teenage should be Fred shaking his fist at the sky, I wouldn't want… For some reason, God wanted me and it get misty just thinking about and here's the bottom line. I owe that man I owe God that I can never read no matter what I do from now until the day I die I will die in the death of Jesus Christ and that angers me to his absolute standard.

This absolute, objective standard, which is the work done and as I'm going out there and I'm looking at these contrary views and I'm looking at these opposing views and things that, frankly, make me uncomfortable and make me uneasy from time to time and when I'm getting outside of my my Christian taken looking. The bottom line is this ice zero have to plumb what I'm seeing against what I know this is true and what I know is true is that God exists that were reasons that are beyond knee. He came down and he took on human form and he died for me. I didn't deserve it, but he did and you know that that is I am Mormon sale the time. Well, you know you don't have the testimony ordered is right there.

My testimony isn't of me is not of what I believe it's a testimony of what he has done and if I am going to be true to that man.

I am beholden to hearing to God's Word, the Bible, so there is six yeah go out. Think critically but it you still have to come home and you have to look at it through that lens of the biblical worldview, so there is RI firefly since rep on this episode, we appreciate Fred coming on and if you'd like to get in touch with Fred. Check out the showlinks there to his blog, as well as to his Facebook profile so you can connect with them.

You may also wish to join the other by this Facebook group where Fred is a member and you can interact with them there as well. Next week will you be bringing you a conversation that Michael and I had with Rich Hoyer which is a Christian pastor at Linden Christian church in Linden Kentucky. That's near Louisville. If, for those of you who are not from Kentucky that's near Louisville or Louisville but here we say little. So Rich came on the program to discuss the importance of Christian apologetics. We were grateful to have him come on she has for the last several years been involved in organizing, planning and carrying off a apologetic and apologetics conference in Louisville, Kentucky area and they also do some things in the Indianapolis Indiana area so really interesting conversation we had with him.

He's the sky. Wealth. Wealth of knowledge about apologetics and also has a heart for sharing the gospel with those who are questioning whether their Mormons were seekers in general. So look forward to that.

The status of fireflies shunned by fireflies. Looking forward to sharing that episode with you shine bright fireflies. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the out-of-print is not as we love to hear from you.

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