The Importance of Christian Apologetics (w/ Rich Hoyer)

Your answering and and and our fireflies this week. Michael and I have the pleasure of welcoming a rich reporting program which I attended the same school Cincinnati Bible seminary at the now defunct Cincinnati Christian University.

Although our time at the seminary was several years apart and we never got to interact bear. I learned of Rich's work in Christian apologetics to my theology professor Dr. Jack Cottrell, rich in a team of people came together to plan and organize an apologetics conference in the Louisville Kentucky area. I attended what I think could be honest here. Rich was 2016, the first real conference was awesome. See Michael, my memory is not too bad yet. But yeah, I attended the first conference with my dad and my son and we got to see my click on the speak and also got to talk with them about my journey from London to Jesus and even signed a copy of his book on the resurrection of Jesus. For me, I also got see Paco Pam speak about conference and got to break bread with Rich in the fellowship hall of the church where the conference was held that year by break bread. I mean that we scarfed down some Chick-fil-A in between sessions. I also got to attend the conference in 2018. And there I saw Frank Turek and Rob Bowman speak I got to briefly interact with Frank in several years.

After several years of interacting from Bowman, an online minister to Mormons.

I also got to meet him in person, which was very cool. Rich Hoyer is senior minister at Linden Christian church Linden Church of Christ in Linden Kentucky which is near the Linden Christian church yeah is a contributor right yet okay sorry about that chart and he's also a talented photographer. I very much enjoy seeing us pictures of the Louisville skyline, the Ohio River and the bridges there that he posts to Facebook I benefited from the many hours of work. The written team put into the real conference each year. So I'm very excited to have been with us. Rich welcomes out a brightness.

Thanks for having me write subtotal tell our listeners a little bit about yourself rich have it.

How did you come to faith. Well I grew up in the Catholic Church and I went to Catholic grade school. My parents were were very faithful in making sure that I went to church each week and you know I had good Catholic education as well.

Catholic education is them in the quality of the education in general is quite good.

And of course lately teacher Catholic faith. So, from kindergarten through eighth grade.

I went to at one particular school and then went to Catholic school for two years and around the time I was about 16 years old I was gaining some freedom and my parents stop making me go to church and so I pretty much stopped going regularly. I went from time to time, obviously went on Christmas and Easter, and in here and they are but not so much, and then went to college and diddled a lot of things.

The college kids did and did all the things that I was supposed to do, at least as I was talking I was taught you go to school we get good grades and get good grades seem get into college and get you know get through college and graduate get your degree and then you can get a good job in that good job will afford you a good income and benefits and you know that was what you were supposed to do in life. And so I did that graduated from University of global green economics started working at Courier-Journal you're here in mobile in the advertising department and you, my life was was just pretty empty and a series of bad things happened.

I had been engaged to a girl and she broke up with me and it was devastating at the time my best for the best things ever happened to me but the timing was quite devastating so you know I was a bit depressed because of that, and I'm working this job did all things also subdue and I look at the clock every day and I'm counting the hours till it's time to get off and then I go home and eat dinner and do whatever not count the hours until it's time to go to bed and then I get up and do it all again.

I'm thinking to myself, you know there's got to be more to life than this early work put here on this planet just to just survive and so that that began spiritual journey, where I didn't realize at the time of the Lord is drawing me to him and my sister had become a Christian before me and she had prayed I'd be so miserable that I have no choice but to turn the Lord and in effect is basically what happened to me. I ended up having surgery had a double hernia and had surgery and it dawned on me as I was entering in the surgery that this doctor here is going to give me some anesthesia. I have no idea how much I'm supposed to have. Even if I did there in ENIAC do control and I realized that I was just not in control of anything at that point and I thought okay if if this goes South.

You know my sins are not forgiven and I'm going to hell. Is that moment I didn't. The only thing I knew, do the time was arrested, Lord Jesus, please state and from that point on, you know. Surgery went fine, came out of that point on, something changed a bit.

Friend of mine invited me to church and I started going to church and it was that he was a nonrational Church of Christ and listen to sermons each week and finally one week. The preacher preached on baptism and the I preach to preach the gospel preached about baptism and I don't member what happened but for some reason on that Tuesday I decided I had this this terrible just urgency that I needed to confess faith in Jesus and be baptized, for nothing is that we don't work it out the piece of wine is that why would you baptize me tonight know absolutely man and now thing is I hate water. I can't swim the thought of being dumped underwater terrifying. So I said to him I said well I wanted to just be you and me is a no no problem turned out about 12 people showed up. But that night I confess faith in Jesus was baptized in my life radically change from that point forward scrape really awesome story so you said your sister became a Christian at about your parents are they still Catholic or no. I had the privilege of baptizing my parents about a year after about a year after I became a Christian so had numerous numerous conversations with them, especially when mom and you know just just talk to her about the differences between Catholic faith and and you know that and the biblical faith and finally convinced her. And so, anyway, about a year later, I baptize them in and they started coming to church at Linden. Maybe I don't know year after I started. So mom passed away a few years ago my dad. He still comes screen is a sorry to hear about your mom know that loss can be difficult to deal with no glad you had that opportunity baptize on this also. That's awesome for nothing so we invited on the program because I thought it would be interesting for our listeners to hear about Christian apologetics in a Michael mentioned were marinara introductions that he was involved in trying to be a Mormon apologists before he became a Christian. What what got you interested in and engage in apologetics rich well ahead.

The night that I was baptized.

The preacher said to me afterwards.

He said I want to warn you. He said you were.

You were basically Satan's before you did all that Satan wanted you to do whether you knew it or not. He said thank you, make your life miserable now because he doesn't like that you've made this choice to turn to Jesus I know, clues talk about is just not known but within two weeks of that moment. I couldn't tell you got existed.

The doubts said him as I was I was faced with a choice I could either go back to the old life that I had lived or acted press forward and I needed to know that there was good evidence for what I had believed in II didn't want to make a decision that was emotional.

I wanted to know that that Jesus really is who he says he is, so I didn't really know what to do, but I just started looking around the Internet and I getting several books that I got the evidence that demands a verdict. Josh McDowell I got out of the second book was a another book called God the evidence by guy named Glenn in an I'm sure who he is anyway through through those books and also reading of some some debates online and I began to realize okay there is good evidence for Christianity at the time. What once I started looking at the evidence and I had to cut a reason from God to Jesus to biblical salvation so I could say you know the universe couldn't just popped into existence at random. Something at a call. Had to call so I was able to say okay God exists and the question was okay. Who is God and I started looking at the options and I looked at Judaism looked at Islam. I looked at Christianity, and I pretty quickly ruled out Judaism, but Islam gave me some issues and so I wanted to know okay is is is the God of Islam or the God of Christianity, the true God. I never reading debates online between Muslim apologists and and a Christian apologist, and eventually came to realize okay the God of the Bible is true God in that there is good solid evidence for the gospel truth, but yeah, that's that's really interesting is telling you guys that during my introduction to K apologetics is the same. Some weird from that culture. You know, a lot of times it's just they just kind off of the motion under or a feeling like I have that using the word burning in the bosom as much these days is that you Stephen like I felt the spirit, the spirit told me that it's true. And then when you start really using reason and logic. It really looked down and Mormonism. In fact, I remember I want my mentors was in the LDS church, found out that I was doing apologetics and he just very sternly told me, like you, stay away from that yelling basically that's dangerous like thinking these things through logically is dangerous and your perspective on why why apologetics why not just tell people to pray about it like they do in Mormonism. Yeah, you know, our hearts are deceptive and there there are spiritual forces out there that them can deceive us I think we can you know you if it's one of those things where you go by feeling and we can we can convince ourselves of just about anything because we want something to be true.

We also can open ourselves up to be no demonic forces that could no work to try to convince us and so you know God is is a got a reason he's got a logic and you know you look at me, look at the Bible when you look at Jesus and his message in a EDC that he didn't just ask people to simply believe now he he he gave evidences now in John 10 he said something to the effect of you know it it it don't don't simply believe my word release believe the miracles that I do so. So God gave it up evidences against signs whether there's a there's a lot of places in the Bible and in the Old Testament when when God did the when God brought the place. He said he said no, so that you may know that I am God. So you night he gave evidences he gave gave reasons, your emotions are just not reliable for determining truth known a man I hundred percent agree with you on that is is you talk to to Latter Day Saints. What was your experience with apologetics outcomes are the Mormons animation first time I talked to a Mormon was ending in 2001 and my wife and I were living in presales Kentucky and it was derby day and we lived in an apartment complex and everybody was algae. No cooking out things that nature and shorts and T-shirts and here comes to Mormon missionaries down the street with khakis and a white shirt nametags on obvious that they didn't belong there.

You know they just they just stuck out in I had read a little bit about Mormonism of time and I had been a Christian for but for I don't know, six, eight months. At that point and so they came up to talk and so I okay will talk with them and I knew I knew enough to know you know specifically on certain topics like the topic of grace that no the Bible talks about how we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and Grace's unmerited favor. You know you basically you're saying God I don't have the spiritual resources to to get to you to to get to have it, you know, I have took to fall at your mercy. I knew that the Mormon concept of grace was not that it was something to the effect of you do all that you can and where you fall short Jesus to make up the rest. So here I am trying to have this conversation with them and I'm saying okay now look. The Bible says you are saved by grace through faith at all, yet we absolutely that and you know and going round and round and round because we do not get them to define their terms nerve are adamant that they believe that were talking past one another. It was pretty unproductive conversation. Eventually I just got irritated and I could tell I was irritated and they say well we don't we don't sense much love in this and so were I go and I was pretty much the end of that conversation.

I did. After that situation I did learn more about apologetics and you know first Peter 315 talks about, you know, giving reasons, but also talked about doing a general listing and the gentleness and respect.

Basically, as I learned a little bit more. They are to the next time I had a conversation with Mormons when a whole lot better. I listened more and I still made my points and I didn't wasn't able to convert them but was interesting.

You know the answers that I gave to their questions and the questions I posed were such that they couldn't provide good answers and I ended up saying what we like to bring our guess it was a bishop to another meeting and so we had another meeting this times at the church and again it was the same sort of thing. Basically everything that they said we had answers for, and they couldn't really answer our questions and finally they laughed that those are probably the two most in-depth conversations I've had with Mormons to see if it makes you feel any better terms: I understand all the terms and we still get from yeah and the client unchallenged doing apologetics list with Latter Day Saints for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think in that situation we tried to set up another meeting with them, but the Bishop warned him to stay away from us and that was pretty much the end of it. Yeah, that's the thing with those missionaries is thereunder's pretty strict leadership and they want to come visit you somewhere. Sometimes the readers will cut you off in an uncommon cut off from the missionaries in my area where the mission presidents mechanical go to his house to Lisa time you if you're not progressing towards Mormon baptism then goes to yeah gadget bridge when I first came to true biblical faith.

I started to ask myself, what I would say to my younger self. What what would be if I had I had the chance to speak to a younger version of myself, what would be the first thing that I would share with them about biblical faith in pretty quickly came around to the fact that it would be the gospel of grace they would have to do with grace and I read a book called think it's called skipping the performance traffic at member yeah already measure that you go. It's a really great book on just just understand a different difference between works workspace religion in the gospel of grace and also read a book called the greatest awakening by Chuck Swindoll and Mayor. She makes the statement that if you gospel preaching does not open it to the susceptibility of the charge of these believers are more cheap grace and you're not preaching the New Testament gospel and really had knew what I did when I read that statement that I noticed as I started to engagement with Mormons on live that they would often come with the same kinds of charges that that Paul the apostle gets from his interlocutors that the quotes from the book of Romans whether that's rhetoric or or or he really heard those challenges. I don't know but some don't. They would come with the same challenges and there was a time when I was I was over, my dad said he was still, she was still out. Yes the time and he had the missionaries over and I I was pretty newly into my degree program at Cincinnati could Bible seminary and I was talking with those missionaries there been sharing with them with them. Grace stands just became apparent how different it is.

You know that. Did they do use the word has a different meaning. Yeah.

So this yes, so had Rich start yeah great grace is one of those concepts that I think is is very foreign to the world around us. I struggled with that concept of grace that I have saved in an honest terminal Church of Christ and it was legalistic church and yet I had this notion that it was like okay what would Jesus save me but I gotta make sure that perform well enough to know to make sure that I'm you know that I'm worthy sort of similar to like what what a Mormon would believe in a really one until I had Dr. Cottrell's class on grace that began understand okay Nona Edison that's not the way it works at all you know Jesus saved us despite the fact that we were unworthy and you know, as it says in Romans. If you know if if if Jesus died for us while we were still enemies.

You know how much more will he save us. Now you know that were reconciled to him so that concept of grace and everything around us is performance-based you work your your your your pay is based on performance you go to school. Your grades are based on performance. You know, even our even our own self-worth is often based on performance was difficult for us to to say okay you know see you mean that I I really can just simply receive eternal life through faith in Jesus and it's a tough concept for a lot of people.*So why, why do you think you mentioned a little bit about after you converted and you were struggling with some doubts and you studied through various world religions, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, can you say a little bit more about why apologetics is important for Christians to be able to engage with the broader culture sure yeah and I mean I think our culture has a lot of a lot of the people of our culture have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity having I think a lot of people, especially in our more and more secularized age that we live in. You know a lot of people think they know Christianity is a religion. I know it has something to do with Jesus and that's pretty much about it. You know, I know they got a lot of misconceptions and you know Christians are often looked at as being backwards in anger, and so forth.

So to provide good solid evidences for Jesus is is 1 Good Way to break down barriers and await me to be able to show that Christianity is reasonable and not only is it reasonable, but it provides the best explanation of the world that we see around us. Not only that but you know he anybody can believe anything I think it was Francis Schaeffer who who who wrote the book I'm forgetting the name of the book right now but that is why should we believe anything at all, and ultimately answer is, is because it's true.

And so we need to be able to show that Christianity is true provide good evidence evidences pride good reasons because a lot of competing claims in and know the message of Christianity is and is a is an exclusive one so we know why should you believe in Jesus being Bill demonstrate why that is something to counter this contest's who are drawn to walk with Jesus, so this is really a measurement. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Basin teaching the name of our podcast brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. Yeah, I noticed it.

Most Mormons leave an atheist and in their X anti-theist or the really against God really hate the idea of God. One of the things I see with them. Another atheist is just this preconceived notion that there is no evidence for Christianity that if you think at all. You will is rational will ever be a Christian and everybody is bears just mind control arms. I really like what you're what you're saying a lot because I think the culture just doesn't attach that to Christianity at all.

I ask you, so you are a pastor and an apologist yeah yeah it's it's funny when I when I was at Cincinnati there was that there was this is the sort of a semi-conflict between the studies department.

The theology department as a theology gabfest that under Cottrell and Presley and so forth and I still remember when these guys asking me out on the biblical study is guys as mazelike theology curry you do with that preacher man we think of them do with it. You know is like mazelike equipment theology how you got preaching on and apologetics, is the same way if I going on do that well you know I like to preach apologetics sermons but also it is as a preacher and I think he offer back saying is true.

Again, there's so many different competing worldviews out there competing religions and in IE you need to explain why this is true and united as kids grow up and they go off to college and so forth that they don't know why it is true, your faith is in a crumble when we see that all the time so you know, as I preach if I if I don't preach a straight apologetics sermon with which I do I try to have a good apologetics series once a year, but I'm routinely mixing in apologetic nuggets throughout enough throughout whatever is on preaching sonics convicts you know a mix preaching a mixed pastoral care and in apologetics like that really like that to yeah I think it's an awesome combination. I guess one could say same question I have for you is Lena the average Christian out there, many of them do you think are kind of ready for apologetics is if there asked the question on the street you think that most Christians are are prepared now you probably not yet.

I would say that just knowing the world that we live in a it's it's our our culture is is you know hundred 44 character nugget kind of information I think most Christians they know a little bit about their faith. Now think most Christians are educated about their faith as they should be, and especially don't think they can give good reasons that I do know people obvious who can you talk about just the average person.

I would say I would say you know if the average Christian is biblically illiterate. We certainly apologetically illiterate to the accents life is just my memory being out on my mission and dating Christians on the street all the time and telling all the other Trinity instance like water. You know, to be highest in a liquidator or a gas. Of course you I just got the best they really believe and then I come to find out later. Like oh that's that's kind of funny. That's actually a really bad analogy will in it and that's a good point. You know EE I would say to people you know there's there is Christianity in the sense of popular notions, but if you really want to know what Christianity is no read read those who are educated and study before you make a decision about whether you think Christianity is true having any any worldview in any topic you can find people out there who know nothing about it but but claim to be and scalp. Things are just not true. And and and really ridiculous, but you shouldn't base the truth from the value of something based upon those sort of mouthpieces. I like that second side was well in our next question who you mentioned earlier, Josh McDowell and evidence that demands a verdict in an another book I can remember the title of the some of your favorite Christian apologists and and what books would you recommend well my favorite Christian writer would probably be Paco pan. You know he's a philosopher and apologist, and he writes the philosophy books he writes apologetic, but when he releases apologetics book. I pretty much just preorder it. I love reading his stuff when it comes to apologetic speakers, guys like Frank Turek, Michael Kona, think who else would would be on that list I made a list clearly stated after my last you guys it right. Well, there's gadgets speak well and sometimes it's not always the same thing another guy who I really like is not an apologist base historian, but that he writes apologetic the relevant books and that's Rodney Stark the story down to Baylor. He's got an excellent book called the victory of reason Christianity led to freedom, capitalism and Western success basically talks about is the influence of Christianity on our on our Western world today. All the things that have come about because of the Christian worldview so you allow people understand modern science actually came about because of Christianity. If you believe that there is a God who created the universe and he created it logically and orderly, that opens up the possibility that you can then study the universe that is predictable. So wasn't until people in it wasn't till Christianity came on the same people understood that they started started studying science and so the modern scientific revolution came came about because of that he is not apologist but these keys and he writes apologetic relevant books. As far as apologetic books, you know, one of the books that I read years ago that I think is still relevant today. Quite good. Is that Paco pans true for you but not for me. You know I said that a lot of the postmodern objections to Christianity and even today your compost postmodern but still, those objections float around the chapters are short and I want to say 3 to 5 pages apiece. This is an excellent book Frank Turek sent have enough faith to be an atheist as it is an excellent just general apologetics book Greg Koegel's tactics great book for you know how to have apologetic conversations, the case for the resurrection of Jesus by Avalos in the Kona another books excellent. I was getting Ed call Majewski or, chef species me.

He wrote an excellent book on reinventing Jesus and written that the part of that book. It's so excellent as is the is basically how the hell beyond the Bible was put together is quite good to be a Qureshi has his great thinking all finding Jesus he got another book called, not only God but one. I really like Nancy Piercy's total truthfulness because a red that are not she was. She was a Francis Schaeffer disciple, so to speak. She was an atheist.

She went to library and asked the questions and and told the truth is an excellent book is one of those books that I think of every Christian minister read this book it would revolutionize the way that the gospel is preached in the sense that preachers would focus on apologetics quite a bit more badging, sire. The universe next door was a book that was very impactful for me and is getting Glenn sunshine he is even apologist. He is a check list what is he he is a think of Chuck Colson fellow that he's got a book called why we think what you think the way you do and that again it's all about how Christianity has shaped the Western world we live in today over 10. There's there's a lot of really good books out there that says you mentioned some really good ones in there. I remember Rodney Stark. He has a book called the rise of Christianity I think is updated and is now called the triumph of Christianity and in in the rise of Christianity. He makes the point that that at the time the Mormon church was the fastest growing religion in and predicted that might become the next world religion and I remember Mormon apologist made a huge deal of that statement from from Rodney Stark and I got his book still is a lot of essay I picked it up at half-price books and I started reading it and I was like oh, wait a minute I don't think that's couldn't be the case. Look at look at everything that that Christian it Christianity has brought to the world in terms of the Western thought everything so that I would probably start straight.

Love Paco pan is got a moral monster is this one. I really enjoyed from him and Christianity in the marketplace of ideas is another excellent book of his correct posture, now you have really really great recommendations there rich thank you when asking to rich you do get you into these apologetic conversations would you describe your style. Last you to go towards the classical evidential or present positional arguments really more of a hodgepodge. Hey, it's more based upon the person I'm talking to and where they're at. Know the person is an atheist probably take a more classical approach you know if the if the person has on a more solid foundation on a use evidential list approach and not not a presupposition of God. Although I do like some of the some of the ways of some of the present positional people practice apologetics peel where they analyze culture and show that you know that the worldview near the secular worldview is just insufficient to describe reality.

So really, hodgepodge, based upon the person in the knee at the moment. I said tell us a little bit about how the reveal conference can be well in 2014, I taught interim apologetics a little Bible college and Peter razor was. I remember his exact tilings academic Dean is a friend of mine and little Bible college put on what they called the Veritas symposium, which was apologetics conference and at that conference.

They brought in Frank Turek, Jack Cottrell and the guy who's the general editor of the apologetics study Bible cable Ted cable and I thought they had a pretty good conference had about 250 people there, but the next year, little Bible college started having what they they were having some problems with a base close their doors for year and they've made couldn't put on a conference again.

I thought you know that's a shame because there that could be a really good beginning. And so I decided I wanted to try to do something like that and I approached Bob Russell and I told Bob Nadia and Bob said will will. Who would you bring into speak and I said well you know I really like Paco pan and bring him in. So what's the cost I told him the price he said I'll pay for it. And so, anyway, that that was kind of be the impetus there.

He gave me some good advice on how to put together a committee and so forth and so we we planned the first conference to start in 2016 and I was the one that you went to Brad and Michael Cohen as well and we done every year in 2021 were not doing one last year's conference ended up being a virtual conference because of all the covert stuff this year. We just couldn't get it together like we wanted. So were were pushing for 2022.

If we had one in 1617 1819 and 20 and hopefully 20, 22 will do it again so Linda during most of the area any speakers it really stood out to you is as some favorites you had, you know, I would say well as a part of the problem for me is because I'm one of the organizers I'm running around and I don't get to hear and are very much but you know guys like Frank Turek.

I think hunting he's an excellent speaker. He's very dynamic. Sean McDowell did a very nice job as well. He's very dynamic. I like listening to Michael Cohen or he's very easy to listen to.

I say those three as proud as far as speaking and engaging.

Those are probably the three that stand out the most. I really enjoy seeing Frank Turk speak in 2018. I had listened to quite a few of his podcast episodes. Prior to going to the conference I seen him soon as YouTube videos and or maybe got his YouTube videos, but videos of him speaking at various universities and that other people would pose and sometimes they had kinda click the titles you know when Frank Turk destroys atheist or something like that and it kind of turned me off at first and I think I kind of associated those click bid titles may be with his with his persona and personality. And when I saw him speak in person of real conference, he shared how he walked through a question from a man who had lost his daughter, he was speaking in Michigan. I think it was and he now how he talked about how this man asked a question and then his sons also asked a question and that he could tell that the loss of their their sister their daughter what was really weighing on them and I got to see kinda Frank's pastor heart as well and it really kinda changed my perception of them, and I was thankful to never see that and so you have and I've enjoyed reveal conference.

I'm glad it's something that you've done an Hoa hope and pray for success in 2022. Yet we appreciate that. So, tell us what else you have going on. What's rich.

We're working on this is this kind of your opportunity to to plug what projects you have gone yeah yeah you know I it in my spare time, which is become less and less as the kids get older and I still enjoy photography.

I have over the years of of license different photos to do different organizations and things I don't get as much a chance to do that. One of things I got into several years ago was that was macro photography and I long story, but that basically I cured my fear of spiders by shooting macro photography of spiders. So I really enjoy that problem is nobody was to look at those pictures.

I came to the professional photographers look at them, but I still do that quite a bit. Not too long ago I got frustrated with with with Facebook and in their censorship and have been posting much of anything really on there but I still wanted to write and so I started a website is as a blog to allow me to do to write some of things that that I enjoy writing is called damning pop religion.com and I damning is the AMM ING so the idea of stopping pop religion and pop religion is so broad it could be anything from secularism to new age to you name it. But on that side, I write on things like Christian apologetics historic Christianity known as our world becomes more secular in our world becomes outraged by some of things that Christianity teaches and believes in like you. Welcome to the seeing analysis of 2000-year-old in a doctrine really extends beyond that goes back to Judaism in assets it is not so, I will focus on historic Christianity historic Christian doctrine Christian apologetics cultural commentary, and then scriptural insights as well so that that's a fairly new project I started working on that, about how to know tonight three months ago. I try to post once a week on their and I say I know you serve a couple of the articles from there with me and I've enjoyed several of the red so yeah really glad you're working on that rich thanks for things for being with us tonight.

We really appreciate it.

Like I said, will be praying for and been hoping for the success of the reveal conference 2022. Hopefully I'll be able to get down there to lowball and and see them in person by fireflies. That's a wrap on this episode next week will be diving into a topic that was requested by one of our listeners. The question of whether God created ex knee hello or X materia from nothing, or from existing materials is a debate that's been ongoing within Christianity for millennia. The Orthodox Christian position is that God created ex knee hello out of nothing and that before she created only God existed. This topic was requested by a currently serving LDS missionaries who listens to the program and was interested in fairness discuss this topic and how it relates to the dialogue between Christians and Latter Day Saints. So looking forward to sharing the episode with you and signed by fireflies into this of the outer brightness podcast.

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