Overcoming Shame and the Life of a Beggar, Pt. 2 (w/ Fred Anson)

Your answering and and and if our flashpoint here will conduct outer brightness going to bring your interviews we conducted with Fred Anson Fred is the driving force behind bigger spread the Christian blog were bigger sure the bread there so freely and graciously received before Fred converted to Christianity.

In the 1970s.

He was an atheist. Early in his life as a Christian she became enmeshed in a high demand Christian cult called the shepherding movement. Fred visit outer brightness to share a story and what he learned about mind control from his time in the shepherding movement and what he learned from leaving that group at times during the interview. Fred is animated about his advice and the ways that high demand religions control their parents often times without there being aware of the fact that there giving away their autonomy to the organization. This is all part of my journey as well assured in season one episode 15 and 16. How when I returned from my LDS mission. I went online to try to find answers to some of the questions I had about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints within a year I was involved in a private discussion board made up of around 10 to 12 people who were all active Latter Day Saints performer Latter Day Saints. I remember one particularly heated exchange on the board between a woman who was an active Latter Day Saints and a man who'd left the LDS church and become an atheist. The thread was about the ways in which the LDS church and its culture controls and restrains women from reaching their full potential. In this way, the man argued the LDS church exhibits cultlike behavior. The woman I mentioned pushed back against that idea.

She argued that since she freely participates in the LDS church and culture and does not feel constrained by that he could not tell her that she was being controlled reading that thread was a watershed moment for me. A part of my mind open up and I could see that the man was correct about the LDS church and its culture, mind control, but I remained in the LDS church for the next two years. Why, because I also took to heart what the woman had said I thought that if I participated with eyes wide open and by my own free choice I could be alert to and avoid any aspects of mind control, I believe the LDS church was true, so I thought I could stay. I was wrong. Towards the end of my time in the LDS church as I had conversations with my wife Angela about possibly leaving the Mormon was so wrapped up in my identity that I told her I couldn't imagine ever being anything else. Even with eyes wide open to participation. My mind was conditioned to be closed. Please listen to Fred's advice and consider what he says. I think you'll find that he has a heart for anyone entrapped in a high demand organization, whether it's in a religious commercial clinical or self-help context. As always, thank you for listening and check the show notes for how you can read bigger spread or get in contact with Fred Anson addressing some of the similarities between the shepherding movement, and in Mormonism. So we've we've all left and we talked about what it is like leaving with was like recovery.

I want to ask you what it was like recovering from the Colts how to deal with regret, shame and confusion will talk about what was truly happening when anybody leaves a high demand group whether the shepherding movement, owner, or Mormonism, or something else, and what were talking about work.

You're going through the grieving process and because I kind of anticipated this list (I print out an article because I can never remember what stages of grief are was just I'm just been written off the stages of rebar denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and accepting okay denial was this can't possibly be right.

I'm Fred handsome smart and not very smart. I'm I'm I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I can't be in cold words you know anger you pass out in a slight moment – I am Fred Anson and I may be, you know, a sharp guy. But guess what, I control angry Misty. Those people trading, even those people bit that said they were looking out for my best interest – tithing money that I paid all those laws that I mowed all that time that I spent and paying grief and I'm going to go after them well just suffice to say I was I was angrier than a junkyard dog bargaining well you know maybe it wasn't all that bad. Maybe there are some things that maybe I can kind like take take the good parts of of of shepherding it and just kind of merge it into something else and and you kinda make this thing work and then depression all my goodness wow when all this stuff begins to hit and you begin to accept it yet's name it, it's really really hard whenever I hear a Christian say to annex more or say to me.

Wow, you must've been so happy to be out here group site. No, not even I felt like my pot like I had wasted 11 years of my life I felt like I had invested in something where I got no return at all.

I'm devastated, I'm destroyed, you know I've got nothing in you telling me that I should be happy know this somehow works painful.

So you know you get past that and all of a sudden this takes a while okay guys this can take years. This this can take a long, long time where you begin to accept it. Go yeah this really did happen. There were some good things there were some bad things there were some things that I would never do again. There are some things that I bit. Frankly, I would do again. There are some lessons I can learn to guess why.

On the other side of this.

I can see that God used it and I'm wiser, more rounded you know of a better person as a result of me.

If nothing else guys he got. They got heavy Fred because he stared right so you know I mean it that there must've been some value in it. I learned how I glossed on earlier. I learned how to have a relationship. I learned how to get relationships maintain those relationships. I learned what it meant to live in covenant, which basically means you make a commitment to the other person and you do what you say you're going to do so. We know the descendents, your question might be, I would also add, let me just throw this tank as always for the step for me.

I'm not saying for everybody but the experts do say, yeah, this is kind for everybody. Most ex-cultists need to go get some type of therapy.

Now, this therapy might be a single session. In my case it was several years because I had a lot. I mean a lock of anger to work through. Also you have to be program which made you gotta figure out you got unravel at all you know we are talking about that that that snapping that that the thought limiting all colds indoctrinate their members with certain ways of thinking. Some of my thinking was just so messed up I mean a you know I'm embarrassed even to even talk about some of the ways that I used to think so for me I had to have a house begin getting out of the tank. I had to go to a third-party and say hey in the group I was taught this and you kind of is this how like normal people do things and he go now it's not. Let's kind of unpack, then take a look at it in this book that took a long time and a you know a lot of it. They bake in recovery. We have a saying we need to have the CAC and a lot of that process is very very painful. For example, that just today I had annex Mormon in my Exmoor recovery group accused me of being likable on Mormon lot being like a Mormon bishop.

Okay, why because the group has standards. The group has rules you cannot you just like you can't go to church take off lawyer close and run naked through the congregation. If you're in a Facebook recovery group.

There are rules Jeep you need to abide by and as an ad man. It's my job to make sure that you abide by well a lot of ex-Mormons.

The plate standards and boundaries as quote unquote warm it and it can shoot I'm talking about here on this software is buggy's. There's nothing wrong with standards.

There's nothing wrong with boundaries. But the question is, are they healthy standards are the reasonable standards are they healthy boundaries in my control groups. There are not, you know, the requirement that a guy forsake his family forsake his wife and kids so that he can go mow his shepherd's lawn in the neglect his own family so that the shepherd can take care of his family is not a healthy standard okay.

Did it spit out. I know it's a little nuance but can you see the difference between the two data packet that I can see it was let's test if you've actually reached that healthy place fragment when we got on the video tonight.

Did you look at me and say who is the Skippy of course is my hair, my hair long enough that the screeching hippie status yet to cross your mind by like what political party did want to MSA smart man. Paul Don asked to accelerate.

So was afraid a lot of the stuff that you're saying really. I just just really messes with my experience as well and in talking about how it's probably going to get it and to get their immune close ideas and those feelings just Holland for so long.

I remember going to California is a pretty new ex-Mormon and actually sitting down and getting to talk to you and just thinking like man this is amazing this guy really understands what I'm going through and and you are leaving occult. It just feels like your you feel so alone. Nobody understands exam going through and I'm sitting there talking you and we had this part of his Conversation on Wednesday having these crazy dreams. You know these items like these nightmare situations and in you and yet I have those to you does it: that's that is crazy so went back like transitioning into the lake healthy Christian environment and it was granted with really hard because I had to. I was so entrenched and it in order to get to the church that I'm now when I went through for church and none of them were good enough, and the reason why none of them were good enough, is because the measure that I was comparing them to was that the shepherd okay there it was in people. I know this will shock you. They thought I was weird and they thought I was weird because I was acting like a shepherding movement guy in a foursquare church. I was acting like a shepherding guy and assemblies of God. Sure, I was acting like a shepherding guy and this nondenominational church that it never even heard of the shepherding movement and you know I mean we were talking about the incredibly high standard to cite while these people like I II can't believe that. But of that they groom the way they do and that they dress the way that they do in and by golly, these guys they they don't wear ties church, you can't do that yet you can't go to church. Without it, high note, dear, don't you realize that you you need to you need to dress up for the Lord, you need to show the proper respect. You know, I mean heck your your your like your part of the royal priesthood, you need to act like you know I mean come on people with the program here and now playwright now people you wouldn't catch me dead in the entire church is just simply not going to happen. They didn't need to change. I did. I needed to if I'm going to be in a foursquare church.

I need to figure out what foursquare culture is like if I'm going to be in a lousy alignment of the Assemblies of God abide with it that those Assemblies of God people pretty weird casino but anyhow that that's just kind of equipment but if I'm going to be interest in Assemblies of God church. I need to figure out what Assemblies of God culture risk which in my case meant I need to loosen up. I need to to be a little bit more easy-going. I needed to be more go with the flow and lower the standards like quite a bit and kind of rather you know Mike you brought up the bold rule about this.

How about loving my neighbor in my church by accepting them the way they are, rather than expecting them to come up to my list. Say the word.

Michael standards which even I couldn't perform at nobody can.

Nobody could could perform at those high standards of right so maybe I need to just relax and just give people a break and let people be people and how about this one about this one. Christians about letting be wrong about letting them have opinions that I don't agree with how well letting them be. Maybe like in a political party that I don't agree with or holding to political views. I don't agree with got really quiet in here did because were talking about stuff were Christians just to get out okay. Mormons are they just love to get out that iron rod and say this is the way it's got to be and you know that's how I was coming from my cold was this is the way it's got to be well guess what Fred no, it doesn't have to be that way.

If it's not sin if the Bible doesn't define it is sin if it's not immoral. The Bible doesn't say that it's a moral, maybe you should cut these people a break. Maybe you know maybe it's okay not work time church. I don't really even seen wearing ties church you paren okay to disseminate your question, Breanna aspect. I think you yeah I mean you get every X cultist is going to feel like a fish out of water.

I and tell the kind get the ropes. Every church here's the thing. Here's hard reality, whether we like it or not, every single church in every congregation has its own flavor has its own culture so when we come into a new church body.

We need to figure out what that is and we need to match into it. That doesn't mean that we we that we have to lower our standards or be anything other than what we are, but we need to appreciate what the culture is and we need to accommodate and be understanding of that and keyword be empathetic what it is we don't even have to agree with that.

I mean, you know even today. Today was my first day back as I fully vaccinated people was my first day back in church today and I gotta tell you, I heard a lot of weird stuff. I heard I heard a lot of things it in my own church which I have been attending now since 1992 when this particular congregation. I heard a lot of stuff that I don't agree with. I heard a lot of opinions expressed that I don't agree with.

But you know something I love these people and I love exactly right where they're at and I think that some these people pretty weird and I love them in the weirdness if I'm going to this is this is something that untestable order buddies mind, but I'm in a state if you're going to love the whole person. You have to love both the good parts and the bad parts and that's that latter part the Christians tend to not like this.

I glad I I don't need to love their bad parts. I met that they need to change the site do they do they so yeah we all need to change. I agree I need to change. I nobody knows that more than me but if I'm going to love them, the way that Jesus loves that right now, this moment, this second this millisecond I have to love them as a whole person, not as a happy person if I'm only loving the good parts in somebody I'm not loving the whole person, only loving the parts that I like so you know, there it is. I want a little bit long but II hope that the good that answers questions so when your next cultist going to a church of the good parts and dark. You don't have to agree with it but it is at least you know, expect to be uncomfortable. Expect to feel like a fish out of water.

Expect to have Steve make you don't feel a lot at first.

But you know something, and Michael, you wrote an excellent article on this. This to will pass. It may not be easy, but it's worth it.

So there is a thank you Fred.

That's, that's great. I was reminded why you're talking answering the last question about the parent parable of the good Samaritan with the good Samaritan comes by and brings the life in a practically lifeless person and brings him and takes into the end so they can take care of them.

That's kind of our job isn't enough. We if he takes on in and we say well you know you if we judge them for the injuries they had like while working.

You've done this so you know I did you what did you get hit in a like when you protect yourself better. Something enough when assessing our Java jobs.

He looked as a church is to help them to know recuperate into to be healed so we need a way to love them as a savior does so that's beautiful. Thank you for that listening to our brightness contrast from persons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away so this brings is moving and will you measure except for Michael's payment is born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teaching. The name of our podcast. Our brightness reflects John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around.

I wanted asked to the shepherding movement so is could you explain little bit more about the changes they've made probably since you've left have actually gone to reform or repentance of some of the things that they've done in the past and do you think this is possible with the Latter Day Saints church to think they could go through some kind of reform to make them more in line with Christian teachings Matthew that is a wonderful, wonderful question, recommend a book to everybody used to listing this back is just it.

Is it just a good book. Given the that the topic they were talking about. There's a book by guy named I want in raw and if you join our Mr. Enroth unfortunately is now deceased. But before he died he beat that bequeathed his his two works called churches that abuse and recovering from churches of the VOC.

He bequeathed them to the public domain so you can get PDF copies freebie.pdf copies of the book. If you like paper. You can still get the paper version up on Amazon. But if you join our group called X Mormon Christians on the Facebook group. That's it. Just search on X Mormon Christians, or for sure the slang for short handle is extant Christians.

We have both of those books in PDF format. In our file library in the second book in that series called recovering from churches that abuse.

Mr. Enroth goes into great detail about how the shepherding movement reform. There's another book that this is kind of likely the scholarly watershed book very hard to find now very expensive called the shepherding movement by guy named by the name of David asked more, you know. Good luck finding that last time I had Amazon they didn't have any copies but he wrote what's considered to be the definitive movement on our movement and of the two books, the more book is more interesting because he goes in. The more detail. But here's the bottom line and this is what people don't appreciate. I don't think that most Mormons appreciate leaders in churches final time leaders and churches disagree all time.

I mean, yes, in terms of the unifying principles like you know saving the essential doctrines of faith through an agreement but in terms of policy and how things that should be done, maybe how things should be taught this bicker and fight snack. And you know they rub each other the wrong way. Just like the rest of us and I have no doubt that that's going on in the Mormon church will guess what it was happening in the shepherding movement did. Did you know a dump Fred the guy that's that's mowing the lawns not having this lawnmower because he was so low and that the hierarchy noticed. Now I didn't know until I read the David asked more book but what happened was in what was it I think 80 8891 the leaders of Derek Prince who you know. Larry talked about Francis Schaeffer, the other guy who was a huge influence on me was Derek Prince of the of the five guys he was the guy who had the greatest impact of the five guys in the shepherding movement but even today. If you talk to Freddie Asner going to get some Derek Prince disc as the guy was so brilliant so biblically sound. But he left the movement he was done and the reason why he was done is because he was seen that the abuse the controlling nature of what we were doing. He was beginning to see that that some of the stuff that we were doing was quite candidly not biblical. He was actually contrary, biblical, and of all the people that would recognize that it would be Derek because of of the five guys he was the most biblically literate of them all. And so he left it at the time I got excited. I was shocked I was you know we were talking about your world crumbling it in front of you.

That was the big one now back to Paul's question about snapping and of the thought stopping okay when this happened. Does anybody want to guess what my thought process was will obviously he's fallen in the air. Derek Prince of all people like I thought that he was the section per approved but this just goes to show that the devil did anybody why because the thought that Derek Prince might be seeing something that Franson didn't see was something that I simply could not possibly comprehend.

So Derek left the movement he saw the bad stuff and he called began per had no close this thing is wrong.

It was a big deal.

Christianity today wrote about it charisma magazine wrote about it. Everybody wrote about it. He was off the street and Don. He even went so far is to purge certain books and certain pace from his his catalog because he felt that he had been teaching. Guess what false doctrine even today just simply cannot get that stuff it's impossible will guess what is still this one guy.

This is the funny thing is doing is one Diane snacks and one guy starts just to start thinking clearly. Other people due to an the other four guys kind of had a you know.

Note no ponder joke intended. They kinda had a come to Jesus moment movement moment went, witnessed all of a sudden. All of a sudden those parameters boosts that limiting thinking guess why they were under two VOIP exporters always want to know will what about leaders today.

Not good day today would leave the stuff. Just my opinion. Yeah, they do, yet they do, they may have their own set of issues and doubts that. But in general when they say yes, and we we really do believe that the gospel in the principles of the gospel, they mean it. I have I have no reason or to believe that they're being insincere. Why because I believe that there are eight in that snap psychological state the problem I'm talking about and they simply will not allow their their thinking to fall outside this process okay so what happened was one and it was like watching dominoes fall guys. It was I was out of the movement by 89 x 95 9D.

The movement was dead.

Okay, but one by one the churches began to began to leave the movement. The leaders began to move. Leave the movement and the thing was over. And guess what each one guy was saying as he was leaving he was saying the same stuff that Derek Prince was he was saying were doing some stuff is not good were doing some stuff that's not right were teaching some doctrine that is just simply not biblical. We have hurt people.

We have harmed people we have damaged marriages families lives. This is not a good thing that we have done and they had the teamwork, integrity to come forward and say were not doing this anymore and what happened was the guys were still in it.

There were still in that cycle that snap psychological state, we are still in there were still holding onto a with low you know both hands as hard as he could not go know this is been my life I've invested thousands of dollars and thousands of hours and everything that I had in his thing going through that anger and denial process, but Mike and I were talking about earlier and long, long story short so the guys are in that movement when one guy would leave the other guy that was left he would assume control of back ice churches. I was out of it but if you stop and think about it this is like this is like a really good comedy. This is like movie watching the sky stumble and bumble and fall over each other until was finally down the last guy Charles Stimpson and finally in 1990.

Charles Stinson just said just represents the said guys it's over. He had a meeting and I think it was Minneapolis or something like that where they all got together one of my friends was there. He told me about it.

He said it was wow absolutely well because the guys that were denial just simply couldn't let it go, but Charles Stimpson literally got up on stage instead, it is over.

I'm not your pastor, your pastor doesn't report to me you don't report to me just walk guys. We only have one shepherd and his name is Jesus Christ invented the movement was done it was done and over.

So what Enroth did in his book and what David Ashmore did in their book as they kinda did the postmortem and to Charles Simpson now talks about it needed to.

Charles always had a very good sense of humor, and he said that he just spent the next couple of decades apologizing. There until finally his wife said okay enough is enough. You gotta stop apologizing Charles, I mean you know you've apologized to the same guy three times now know that this test in so yes are movement reformed. Now the question is can the Mormon church reform, like we did the other one that always comes up is the worldwide Church of God Herbert H. R.

J. Armstrong.

I can remember, but they also reform so you have to examples of former cultic groups that have now reformed so now of course it anybody using Mormon studies going well. Could happen here and candidly, I don't think it can. Let me tell you walk on forest start. We were never as you know, you can say a lot of things about the LDS church. But the thing that you can't say is that it doesn't run like a well oiled machine it runs like a well oiled machine. I mean, my goodness. We thought that we were. We set the bar high in terms of organization and that type of thing will the LDS church makes us look like fools. In terms of structure, organization, getting stuff done. I mean come on guys, if you want to get something done. Want to get the job done due to a warrant to really get it done in the going to get it done. Well, let's just just say it the way it is okay so there's that part of it. Also, when you got it.

We did not have a $124 billion portfolio that could be soon countersued challenged reach challenge and then soon, we challenged and received again that there just work assets to this battle because each congregation maintain its own portfolio of of its own books its own standards. The only thing we are responsible for our movement is enough taking that high paying the time. So what would happen if is our church.

For example, would pay a tithe to our pastors church to help them with their ministry and they would they would pay a tithe to the church above them. Well, the Mormon church.

If you look at the way that they're structured financially. It's all one big pot. Everybody pays to Salt Lake City and then Salt Lake City decides who's going to get what and so in terms of financial stuff this things just to entangle on top of that the skies wow.

I mean, you know the level of mind control, but we were under in the shepherding is not I'm not I'm not trying to be what's the word overly critical or anything but the stuff that I see like I've been that the debate groups of on Facebook. It was just not that extreme. You wouldn't have people in our movement that were willing to fall on their own source to to say the movement just just didn't happen so I don't I just don't see it happening on top of that the LDS church knows the history of the art LDS church in the community of Christ and they know what happened when the art LDS church began to reform and frankly by all accounts they did it way too fast and way too radical and that there are LDS church just absolutely imploded and splintered and turned not fractured in a million ways. Do I think that there is some reform coming to the LDS church. Yes I do, I wouldn't be part of a group called Mormon Reformation. If I didn't believe the reform was possible, but it's to be like all things in the LDS church is to be very very slow and if the end of the day.

I think theologically because of the LDS church is both a sociological what cold and a theological coal.

I don't see the LDS church ever becoming fully biblically Orthodox, and the reason I can say that is all point to the community of Christ. They're not completely biblically Orthodox. They they've done a better job of posturing themselves so that they look like they are. But, for example, their doctrine of the Trinity is not really the doctrine of Trinity. It's more like the type of Trinity that she seen the book of Mormon where it's it's kind of a little bit Trinitarian and kind of little bit mode listed. So yeah, I'm kind of a long-winded answer, but the short answer is no.

I just don't see the LDS church reforming the way that the discipleship church did on their there are still remnants of the shepherding movement left their churches called known as rented churches. In fact, that the church that I am now is one of those rented churches okay but it's is nothing, absolutely nothing like things were back in the shepherding movement.

I mean I can bet the senior pastor of our church. I pulled into a space. I disagree with.

I've told him that you know it is worse he would never you would never say shepherding movement phone you know I do it, you know, I'm sorry but that's just national my radar and it's it's really really different church. I would say that the church that learns from its mistakes. For example, Matthew. I know that your NAR reformed Baptist church, and I would you know I would packed you guys on the back and give you kudos I mean you guys have really when you look at the history of your movement. You really learn from your past mistakes and you guys are great, great Christian denomination.

As a result of you know I could I could pick other denominations that say the same thing but there just wasn't that the key thing was the control that that control that my control. Just had to go now. I should also work were you know, pretty deep into the single tiring out that there are people you know my old friends that they get very upset with me when I say that the shepherding movement was my control. Local they they don't like me using language like that and the reason for that is tightly I I suspect that this is going to sound really rare – the people that are in the lower echelons of the organization shepherding movement had a very different experience of the shepherding movement than the people that were in the upper because one of the privilege know the reason why I I wouldn't be surprised to walk into the church office building and walk into a board room where the brethren are having a meeting and seeing them arguing with each other is because as you move in a a a a a high control organization when you move up the hierarchy, the higher you get, the more you're able to say in the freer you're able to think. Now this guy down here who just got baptized last week you met her toe the line body. This is this is what the gospel principle says and you know boom boom boom, you better believe the words in this book that the guys that are changing the words in the next revision of gospel principles. David, I sitting atop the guy sitting in the church office pool so again the experience that a moment, to pick on my favorite Mormon apostle who I think the whole entire world knows that that I'm a total fan boy for Peter F.

Dorf okay Diederich F door.

Trust me the way that he talks in the way that he thinks in the church office building is to be very different than if that new initiate the just got baptized last week could talk his experience of the Mormon church is very very different. The neck I first start, you don't have millions of people.

Adoring you just because you have the title apostle okay so index another another thing fighting against the reform of the Mormon church because guys who were sitting in that war room atop who are you know eating their chocolate cherries that Steve Benson tells us that they do it for meetings and in doing that and you know the proper hierarchical order based on tenure. Okay the guys that are are talking about these things and talking about the next set of revisions of gospel principles are having a very different experience with the Mormon church.

Then the guy who's in the Gospel doctrine class whose goal was in chapter 1 page 1 chapter 1 of the book so there you go again long-winded answer but but II hope it's helpful and I would recommend. I would strongly recommend that everybody who's listening to this interview. Even if you don't finish the interview pick up recovery from churches that abuse by Ron and Ron and Rita will not only did an education about our movement will probably get an education about your own your own church as well. So there is appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge and skill kind of thing you have going on with thanking you and going on with David and Rhiannon.

It's it's a funny question because of the honest answers I have too much going on and I'm actually trying to find ways to throttle things back and you know some of you guys are in my Facebook group where I put up the silly attempts of the day.

A nice one of the principles was due few things but do them well and I came to your my own realization that I was doing too much. I had too much going on I had too many plates spinning at one point you ready for this. I had I was doing better spread which is my website.

I was doing Mormon Reformation Day were, you know, the part of the whole Mormon Reformation, cut thing, which is now been going for nearly a decade.

I was doing.

We agree with Maroney 818 day and I'm in IT and I'm I've got a reputation for being a pretty good Facebook administrator I was administrating like five or six groups. There was this just is too much so if the end of the day.

My focus is going to be one that you guys are birds in line with because you're all published authors on it which is going to be better spread that's that's my website URL is very simple. Beggars bran all run together.work.

Every person on here except for Breanna Hansen hit Breanna has an article on the website okay. I think all you've done a lot for now. After you been to and Mike.

I've lost count of how many I publish from you. So that's it would be best to be the big thrust going forward. The thing that keeps me busy is Facebook and see him administrating the if I forget anybody any of them just jump in, guys, I've got X Mormon Christians. I've got the X Mormon Christians manhood Warren.

I've got the Mormon underground, which is a new one for just kind of putting things out and that the public domain. Finding ways to move around the. The information control that the LDS church as the Mormon missionaries under I know I'm forgetting some folks dictating from an asbestos yeah yeah which is at thousand adjunct of from a chapter that I wrote no book culturing the good news with the Mormons.

Chapter 12 I think it was where were a bunch of the guys are a heck of a lot smarter than I am. Wrote chapters about how to reach which Mormons with the gospel and I wrote the chapter on Internet evangelism.

So we have a coaching website, it seems pretty popular that people seem to like where we talked about how to do that initially. The idea was that limited to the Internet but it's kind of spread out a little bit now people talk about face-to-face evangelism and everything else in the sun and that's one of my favorite groups. To be honest with you because I can kind of take the leash often and let my weird sense of humor lawful little bit weak. We do funny names the cash caption contest and stuff like that. So basically, beggars bran and Facebook to be my focus going forward. And yeah that's that's pretty much it. I I hope to get invited back to the faith. After Mormonism conference after Tobit we were able to do that live last year and I gotta tell you guys doing that actually meeting people face-to-face is nothing like just meeting people in the flesh, and realizing that I have found that when the new you meet people in person their way better mean that just by magnitude of 101220 Their Way better person than you ever thought they were that they would ever be on Facebook or on the Internet so I I'm hoping to get to that again this year and other than that just doing my job. I do have a full-time job and eight in IT and also that this thing called marriage and I hope to keep that going and there you go. And of course made my my second religion is major league baseball nationally football so there is I've the place just keeps spinning and no Michael I don't want to talk about yesterday's Angels and Houston Astros day so there you these grinning is great.

We got bomb 16 to 2 but love and it is a good day.

Thank you Fred. We really appreciate annual on end.

Where were so blessed to have your experience, your wealth of knowledge. Your help in helping us to witness Latter Day Saints. So really do think he follows the time you spent outside of work and family to help us to share the gospel. Latter Day Saints so just thank you again for coming on and then we really recommend check a beggars bread.com for all of our listeners. If I am writing this book in this real quick.

I mean III talk a lot about the reading different things and making a point of reading things that disagree with you but I can't emphasize this enough.

I mean, the bottom line here peoples were Christian and our absolute standard because we have made that decision because every single one of its trust me I guys I the last thing I wanted to be was a Christian I wanted. I was an atheist for reason I was raising a stream and I walked away from my walk away angry and man but God had other plans. You know like Matthew, I'm a good Calvinist boy and God wasn't let me know why I have no clue. I have been to that to this day.

It is a mystery I would let me go. To be honest, I was not a very nice status in the diet that the teenage should be Fred shaking his fist at the sky, I wouldn't want… For some reason, God wanted me and it get misty just even thinking about it and here's the bottom line. I owe that man I owe God that I can never read no matter what I do from now until the day I die I will die in the death of Jesus Christ and that angers me to his absolute standard. This absolute, objective standard, which is the word of God and as I'm going out there and I'm looking at these contrary views and I'm looking at these opposing views and things that, frankly, make me uncomfortable and make me uneasy from time to time and when I'm getting outside of my my Christian taken looking.

The bottom line is this ice dill have to plumb what I'm seeing against what I know this true and what I know is true is that God exists that were reasons that are beyond knee. He came down and he took on human form and he died for me. I didn't deserve it, but he did it and you know that that is I am Mormon sale the time.

Well, you know you don't have a test what is right there.

My testimony isn't of me is not of what I believe it's a testimony of what he has done and if I am going to be true to that man. I am beholden to the hearing to God's Word, the Bible, so there is it's it's yeah go out. Think critically but it you still have to come home and you have to look at it through that lens of the biblical worldview, so there is that's great thank you Fred appreciate that. I'm sure that people are probably going to want to talk to. Personally, so I'll go ahead and do the trail and then mechanic of information how they can contact the Oregon touch with you. So go ahead so all right fireflies.

It's a rep for this topic.

Feel free to share your thoughts in the outer brightness group on Facebook and you can also talk with Fred there. If you're interested is there and it aspect of this topic. We missed or something you like us to discuss in the future. Let us know. Over the next couple weeks will be talking about our friend Herman. No, not Herman Munster hermeneutics if you don't know who or what that is tuning as it's bound to be enlightening. Thanks will see next time. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the out-of-print is not as we love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast facing a delivery to send us a message than with comments or questions and send a message of it on the main appreciate it a delight. We also have an outer brightness and others. As we discussed on the pursuit can also send this outer brightness on hear from you soon, subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on podcasts cast box Google cast cast the modified stitcher.

Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it certainly is likely give us a great also connect with Michael. He is just wind up lungs and sometimes Poland Matthew as well. Music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road.

By visiting their ministry page.

It Adams Road ministry.com. Stay bright fireflies to show in the daily kind of that to the and is and a man being a man in a village to the he may and being an and in the and the human and a bad and being an and