Articles of Faith Series Recap

Your answering and and and okay welcome fireflies to this episode of the outer breaded podcast. So today we're going to kind your recap over the past year, and the articles of faith that we have addressed in our EPISODES we done quite a few of the articles of faith to build his church. We address them.

As we understood is Latter Day Saints and also how we view these particular topics.

Now, as born-again Christians, so we would like to do a kind recap on all these episodes and share episodes that really spoke to us or that we really enjoyed most share favorite moments in kind of a discussion that way. So first off let's you Michael, do you have any particular episodes. He really enjoyed from the articles of faith series that we been working on really stuck out to me was our episode about the priesthood. What about the priesthood for a couple of reasons why it was first episodes where my wife Breanna came on the podcast actually joined us so that was really enjoyable. You know what they say couples that podcast together stay together but you like one of the first time she's on. She kind of calls me out saying how horrible I am just dinner but I like the point that she made in there, which is that God loves me anyway and if his love is that strong and that your then why do we need a priesthood to seal last to God and so I just really liked that whole episode because it's such an important topic to discuss with Latter Day Saints. The priesthood is the Alpha and the Omega, in Elliott's culture and so when that gets knocked down. It's like the first domino that knocks down every other single Domino that there is so that is how important the priesthood is to talk about just really enjoy going over all the different Bible verses that Latter Day Saints like to point to and really doing a deep dive into the context of all those and showing that it does not in any way support the other yes jewelry that priesthood was lost and now it's been restored or anything like that.

Yeah, I agree that I really enjoyed our discussion. In particular, on Hebrews because I was instrument on my also deconstructing my faith is understanding what the priest to the Melchizedek really is something at some we hold something the Christ holds a minute and is related to his redeeming work is intercessory work as the Savior that he stands between the wrath of God in us, and he takes a wrath upon himself and so for us to take on that priesthood is We know what I really understood that. It's kind of prideful to think all I can take the place that Christ alone is is fit for so do you have any thoughts on that. Michael, I just remember when we got to this episode we actually talked about how vital that they go back and I read Hebrews now and it is so clear. As I read it that Christ alone is Christ as our high priest and there so many different parallels and then I see that just makes this this comparison to real Christianity versus Mormonism because it talks about how the high priest would first sacrifice for themselves because they were sinners and it's like the same thing happens in order to win communion Communion is being sort of the same kind of thing your you're doing a sacrifice to you, you know, so that your covenant is in force again in the first person that takes the sacrament. Every single Sunday. Bishop because he is gonna take that for his own stand, but we got a high priest who was alive once he is alive and so he is able to save us to the other. You have his own students to atone for anything like that. You know when to the uttermost. There's no need for anybody to stand in the way. There's no need for fish or prestressed a president or anybody. And so I really recommend the book of Hebrews 5 been able to understand that book earlier on in my life. I probably would've come out of the church a lot. I love the way to thou the book of Hebrews ties everything in the old testament and its fulfillment in the New Testament. It's our luncheon at that upset him sherbet RC Sproul said that if you are you yes good Christian if you're on a desert island in a desert island you could have any book of the biweekly choose one to go by what would you choose and he said would be Hebrews kind of all the reasons we talked about that. There's just so it basically lays out the entire plan of God from the beginning to the end and how all the animal sacrifices.

Although the temples allows the commandments are fulfilled in Jesus. And so it's is written to a Jewish audience because they understand that context the I love that book too and it's like you said I did on the same way when I read it now. Mike, I read this and that the why did I get it understand, but is a show that we need the we need a new heart, and you guys to really understand it is hard to read from you sorry is a letter to St. because if you look every single sentence in Hebrews is just going completely against your religions. I think when I read Hebrews I would kind of just glaze over as I read it to the radio. The other day in the same thing about on a desert island will look what I think but was Romans, they picked but I think is is XX. Thanks. Specifically, I think. Hebrews just speaks less because Larry since you were so focused on priesthood and on ordinances and Hebrews actually covers all of that stuff and it explains how that fits.

And the new covenant with Christ as I would really like that but I like how we dive deep into it and talk about the Scriptures and in the context surrounding it. Everything so that was really good.

So to me it's great, we both talked about how the understanding salvation by grace alone through faith alone is pivotal to our understanding way do I really need illness, priesthood no. If I can have everything. If I can have all the blessings in Christ without the priesthood LDS priesthood.

Why do I need it so so appalled.

Any thoughts on that observer before return to you for your favorite episode that I thought that was a really important episode as well for all the reasons that you both listed it's it might be if you were to rank boot. The 13 obvious articles of faith in terms of most important to LDS person's identity. It would probably be probably be number one priesthood and number two the Trinity, so probably be those two articles of faith to cover those topics because the priesthood was so integral to how Latter Day Saints males especially see themselves but also to Latter Day Saints females and how they interact with with the LDS church and how they are taught to have ability, priesthood holder as part of their home. From the time that there is a little girls so got that one is just so so vital for LDS to Latter Day Saints to overcome that better understanding and Michael as you were saying you know that all of that, he was hard to read for Latter Day Saints. I was like I got not… Chapter 4 verse five other Matt, yes, but that one strip from contacts they love.

But yeah, death assessments are not that episode yet. I think it's great hope actually want to know we talked I don't go back and listen to those yeah great episode. Softly that's been a blessing to fireflies. Anyone else is listening so and we hope the more public than the future that'll really challenge the faith of those who are stalwart or and maybe encourage those who are struggling and also the kind of about three hole with granite also asked for and challenge ourselves and be willing to re-examine our faith and how we understand the Scriptures more than the future. So far you are ready to share your spirit article faith up so that we did this last year. Yeah, I have three. I think Mike my the first one I would listen that these are in no order but the first one is this is a favorite is the Trinity supposedly did what about the Trinity based on article faith number one of the reason one of one of the main reasons that those episodes are my favorite on my favorite list because the way we tackled those where Michael prepared the notes for episode and he pulled from his book that he had written when he was a Latter Day Saints apologist, the biblical defense of Mormonism and he pulled questions that he used to pose to Christians as a Latter Day Saints challenging the doctrine of the Trinity.

And so I thought it was kind of a fun way for the three of us. The two of us. You and I Matthew to get to know Michael's personality and also for our listeners to do the same and also to kind of witness and in a fun way. The journey that he's taken from Mormons Jesus and the differences in the changes that that have come to be in his doctrinal framework. As a result of that, and so was fun to kind of tackle that topic in that way.

The second one. I would list is as a is on my list of favorites from the articles of faith episodes is what about salvation on the second article of faith. The reason I say Trinity and salvation is because those two topics are so critical to Latter Day Saints and their critical really to anyone right because the question is who is God and how do we deal with evil, right and so what about the Trinity will salvation. I think it's so important to understand grace when I first reached the point where I was ready to leave the LDS church and start attending Christian churches and really can ask myself, you know the question okay so what what am I now am I in my a Christian because I was a Latter Day Saints for most of my life or am I not yet a Christian when did I if I am a Christian.

When I become a Christian. What is that mean all of those questions were kind of rattling around in my head and gripping my heart in those months after I left the Latter Day Saints faith and I started reading a lot a lot of Christian books 1 of the first books that I read during that time is called grace of grace awakening by Chuck Swindoll and is just a beautiful book in the way he lays out the doctrine of grace is just it's really clear it's it's a popular level book so it's not like heavy doctrinal heavy heavy scholarly level buckets a readable book for anyone and is a couple of things that he that he said that that we covered in our in our what about salvation episode partially and then.

Furthermore, in our what about Original Sin episodes, but he says this, learn a little theology is vital to understand and appreciate to understanding and appreciating grace. We were born wrong with God. The same sin that Adam introduced has polluted the entire human race. No one is immune to the same disease and no human accomplishment can erase the internal standard separates us from God. That's not a doctrine that fits within the Latter Day Saints framework but it's a doctrine that is critical to understanding grace and then the other quote that I think is just fabulous from Chuck Swindoll as he says he's commenting on Romans six, the question that Paul begins chapter with are we to continue in sin that grace may increase Chuck Swindoll goes on to say, if it is true that where sin abounded, grace has much more abound as well, then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound yet further. First of all let me make a comment to me a very important and vital comment true preaching of the gospel of salvation by grace alone always leads to the possibility of discharge being brought against it. There is no better test as to whether a man is really preaching the New Testament gospel of salvation than this, that some people might misunderstand and miss interpreted to mean that it really amounts to this that because you are saved by grace alone. It does not matter at all what you do, you can go on sinning is much as you like, because it will redound all the more to the glory of grace, that is a very good test of gospel preaching. The preaching and presentation of the gospel of salvation does not expose it to. That misunderstanding that it is not the gospel, and when I read that probably in 2011 timeframe and it hit me pretty hard because I was at the time just freshly out of the LDS church, and I was engaged in trying to preach the gospel to Latter Day Saints and they constantly came with that charge of cheap grace all you just think you can send all you want in your saved and I began to ask them if they realized they were asking the exact questions that that the apostle Paul's accusers through it him because I don't know that they realize all the time that they're asking those questions they should do the same questions, but it's important if you're if you're preaching is not subject to the charge of these believers simple in a cheap grace do not preaching the New Testament gospel and while that hit me like a ton of bricks. When I read that back then and so yeah, what about salvation and what we talked about those episodes really important for Latter Day Saints and I think that's why mix my favorite list and then my third one is what about religious freedom and respect with Jeremy Howard when we had him on no and in conversations with Latter Day Saints. It's it's always a challenge because Anna and I when I was Latter Day Saints I wrote an email to my mother-in-law around this time of year, encouraging her to see me as Christian.

Let's celebrate Easter together.

We both believe in Christ and the resurrection. You know I I understand that feeling that Latter Day Saints has a desire to be accepted as part of the Christian community. But whether or not you personally or your doctrine is accepted as part of the Christian community is not what matters.

What matters is whether or not you really had the heart change and and and are saved by grace alone through Christ alone and so that that question of her Latter Day Saints Christian can be really thorny because it can throw up roadblocks for Latter Day Saints to listen to us and so I think Jeremy did a great job talking about that the doctrinal chart that he has separating primary doctrines from secondary and tertiary doctrines, and you have the fact of the matter is that Christians, regardless of the charge for Latter Day Saints. The Christians are all over the map and and disagree about all kinds of things we're aligned on on the primary doctrines who God is, how salvation is obtained, and the other primary doctors were realigned on those and so and you know to the contrary Latter Day Saints are not aligned with Christians on those primary doctrines.

There is there is not agreement on who God is between Christians Latter Day Saints and is not agreement on how salvation is obtained between Christians Latter Day Saints. So those are key issues that the Jeremy did a great job of respectfully, laying out where those landmines are how to have conversations respectfully about them. Those types of things. So those are my three favorites. We fall asleep Michael to get rid stuff there. Paul think you know I was just like I didn't realize we were going through our entire list because I only went through one of my episodes. Sorry guys.

It is no, I can't talk short yeah you know it's all good thinking Paul and I are at a lot of same thoughts you had when you're missing your favorite episodes. All that those those episodes were just the first the first three articles of faith real Lee are just key is adjusting completely different worldview differences between Latter Day Saints and evangelicals when when you see God is loving everybody absolutely the same were all just children of God by by birth and that were not really bad, you know where were born sinless and pure and have no stain or or an imputed or inherited guilt from Adam's sin and that's a completely different worldview change from what the Bible teaches and it's it's a hard it's hard change to know that were not automatically children of God and that we have to become adopted after being given the right to the capacity to become children of God through faith. And so he had. It's just such key to getting through the Latter Day Saints week we even just reading was is reading Thai girlfriend's family earlier.

The first couple articles of faith in a Christian might read them and say a yellow catalyst with presuppositions understanding from LDS perspective.

You really have to tackle every single one and address it because there's just so different to radically different Michael to Jimmy comments on them steps of the Paul mentioned yeah say that I really enjoy that that Trinity episode two. It was kind of hard for me getting back into that mindset and it probably wasn't a satisfying you know kind of feeling like I lost the debate but you not to take Christ glorious… It's all good but yeah I was losing the debate I commenced slinging nothing, my punches really trying to trip you guys out and I was proud of you for coming out with good answers for my sneaky attacks just to show that there really is nothing that Leninist skin a lot of pockets you think these are tough, they look. There are answers and the Trinity is stronger doctrine than the other. Scott had to do any other comments about the other episodes that he mentioned Paul, you mentioned earlier it's what about salvation also write you yeah that you said you met your always so loaded and with Latter Day Saints.

Even the word faith is something completely different than what we mean, you know, when we say faith we are talking about out trust and trust in God and that precedent doesn't Christ righteousness to last with the Latter Day Saints. Assailants and actually word and in faith actually means obedience and it means move forward in taking the LDS ordinances and sacraments say say that it is a natural evolution. If you have faith you will go and take the LDS ordinances went well. How does that make sense because I was doing all that and then I laughed so how does that reasoning really work by like we did that episode on what about salvation, I agree with all… Super important topic to talk about Latter Day Saints. I will be followed up with the next article of faith, and we immediately went into every single point just one of the buzz I listed as one of my favorites was the sacrament notice: going into that and I learned so much about the different positions you know real presence and distant different stances on that so I recommend those episodes to anybody who is really wanted it deep was the theology is nerdy enough to get in and get into the theology because we got into it really happy there. I enjoyed talking to Jimmy Howard as well so yeah all is good. Episodes after I think along the lines of the religious freedom of so Jimmy Howard talking about how to share the faith Latter Day Saints I think are upset with Jordan Whitmire was right along those lines as well about what his comments were saying that a lot of times that Christians were sharing the faith we try to tell them we instead of asking C is what they believe.

We say will your church teaches this and it's wrong and so he kind of said we should be asking them what they believe and if it's correct then go with it and then move on it and you'll build off of that in 1000 Interesting Way to think about it because I hadn't really tried to do the at something I could still work on also talk about essays instead of try to be like well your church teaches us instead of making more inviting and try to have conversation with them. The and then so the project I think imprisoning a nice time is timeless. I got kicked out there guys completely excommunicated. Can you hear me now yeah okay time is still where should be says were recording so hopefully we didn't lose anything at the end of this was lasting your number hearing you were talking Matthew you are responding to what Michael had said about us getting really deep in theology theologically on each of the sacraments that I don't bring that to go with Alameda now. Hope it is a long ago but yeah it I froze up again and then I got kicked out completely. So you hear me talking veteran Whitmire no model, so it wasn't that long neck like a minute or something that wasn't too long ago is probably right before I brought up my yeah I'm just hoping that even though I was frozen. The recording everything up and just left. See BSO just to Summarize yellow than the depth of the Jimmy Howard enduring Whitmire thing. Those are both great those kinda go hand-in-hand with helping helping Christians know how to talk Latter Day Saints friends how to share the gospel and to start the conversation without being overly abrasive or offensive. So those are really great. Nothing is go well together yet. So Michael did you have given it up so you like to introduce yeah the third one that I had on my list is actually one of the did recently and that was what about the gathering and is going back and revisiting it because as a Christian it's not something that I even had on my radar anymore. It was one of the season. I just threw out the baby with the bathwater and so is going back and talking about it.

I enjoyed hearing about some of the old LDS beliefs in mythology from from Paul Gartenberg talking about how the lost tribes of Israel came from the North Pole. So that was something I've never heard of in my life and also. So this is closely the we finally found you know it took forever to find that quote from Joseph Smith saying that that our planet actually changes into the blood of an Israelite interesting about that is if our blood is changing, then it's no longer an option.

Isn't it is literal distended see if that's a word crops other than those of those really interesting Latter Day Saints after the fact and ask them their thoughts and it does not seem to be congruent with current Latter Day Saints belief, but it is there and then just just I was fascinating to early on, the church was all about gathering is going to Missouri and how their language is changed and it's no longer about working to pack up and go. It is about staying strong are. It's about who living where you're planted or lifting where you stand and holding the priesthood is holding the line and is drifting in doctrine.

I like talking about about those things and what tribes of Israel.

We were all supposedly from so I agree, during that upset was trying to when I was coming back into but I was. Started good. I think a lot of Alayna.

I enjoy the service well and and Michael, you said you project a blessing says that you're from the tribe of Ephraim by blood right by blood or by adoption. Didn't know you choose. Obviously I'm glad to set this by looking at me as I was trying to find my exact when you said that I was like a member of mine said anything about blood or adoption. So I did finally find it and it says I'm of the tribe of you from it doesn't say by blood or adoption. It does later say that you are rightful tear of the priesthood so I don't know if that means by blood or not but yet it was an interesting episode and I enjoyed digging into that and then we had some fun in the editing. So I think the fireflies will enjoy that. Yeah, that's straggly.

That's it. That's a good episode. Did you write my clothes.

It was fun to kind of dig back into it because is the right is a Christian.

The gathering of Israel. It's not really is not really a key part of of Christian doctrine and so is bad news for you, maybe this isn't the time to say it but thinking or adopted. Really I think I think you're probably right about that, but just that just means that they chose Paul and are stuck with you Michael start break it to you buddy you at least somebody chose to marry me. So if you and keep go back in time and talking about TW because by now 50 wells of 50 women, three women that I told not to marry you in earlier houses can say that I knew about that quote from Joseph Smith where he said that it literally changes her blood, and it was in teaching the prophet Joseph Smith but I didn't have enough out it was in the other room.

If I if I had of the physical copy would've found about try to go through a color PDF copy or something so I can find it yeah no I'm good.

I'm doubly found even if it is like 20 minutes as I was found that was interesting. Not only ever talks about in the church but something he said so only two minutes in advance and there's probably 20 minutes. Yeah.

So let's see I was with that… Are you and Michael yeah that's that's all the love that I have probably went through the ones he wanted to miss a good support. Yeah, I was convinced as a basically the ones that I thought were maybe not the most interesting or the ones that left the biggest impression on me, but I thought were just poor were the ones on the Trinity as we already talked about. Also salvation. Of course, also Original Sin and Scripture. I think those four are just like so key to understanding if you want to transition from Latter Day Saints to evangelical Christianity.

We would Artie talked over that Original Sin but just just in there and there. The thing is is there's a lot of different understandings. Original Sin, but I wanted to point out that there was a poll that is made in a debate group I'm in with a bunch of Christians. If you ask if they believed in Original Sin in the vast majority said yes and they also all agree that that means that it not only makes us sinners that were not only inheriting a sin nature, but also that we are inheriting the guilt of Adam as our federal head south through him. He acted on behalf of all humanity and through his sin. We are also held accountable and we talked in those episodes about that the Romans five so I recommend he wants information about that to go through that chapter and what's amazing to me is that there is a lot of agreement on that issue and even out in the classical Arminianism.

They agree in total depravity. They believe that we do inherit the sin nature. And that's we can't have our own volition.

Choose God that God has to give grace first so we talked a lot about that that episode so I think it is great that that as we said there it Latter Day Saints AC that Christianity just a big confusing mess.

The big hodgepodge of his degree arguments and disagreements and everything, but really there.

There is a lot of agreement, a lot of these things and there is disagreement on certain aspects of it in predestination and things like that but ultimately that that's not you don't need to believe in one idea or the other to be saved, when you need is to trust the Lord Jesus into believing in the end that Jesus is eternal God that he's the son of God and trust in him alone for your sins. And so, and then when we get into all these other debates.

It's an in-house debate in an outhouse debate so it's it's debating amongst friends and brothers rather evidence on Evans under a minute.

Accident thing about that all your listeners.

You have a lot of mean what else are you and I have extra time Michael. Michael had to bring up your previous comment about God watching us while we shower to come with an outhouse debate and step right in it and I was reading Proverbs and there's something in there about keeping your mind out of the gutter doesn't say that way but but I'm in citizens on both your hands on my post because their letdown derailed you with calling out your comments.

So moving along. Now her or I'll get read. Yes, I was those, I want to point out about Original Sin, but also Scripture I really enjoyed our in-depth discussion Scripture. It. Looking back, it's crazy that we had four episodes on it and it was only our is our fifth or eighth episode.

So we had to to partners before then adding the first one was what if Mormonism is untrue and then he said what church is true, then those are our first four episodes.

The metaphor partner on Scripture and I was like man effectively sought listeners. After all that, you know, for a four-part ups on Scripture and are still there, still hang around is pretty amazing, but I really enjoy talking about that interesting points of Scripture is to me is Latter Day Saints. I was those one of the key things to it was. Not only that any priesthood and that God is our heavenly father and mean we need all that we need the LDS church and ordinances and all that but it's also that you can't really trust Scripture hundred percent. There's always give me something that's missing or corrupted or whatever. That's now at Dimino's keys, LDS doctrine and then understanding of Scripture is trustworthy, that it is it does come from God and we look at Jesus and his view of Scripture that it was the words of God. Also, that started fundamentally shift how I read Scripture I was just seeing it is like all here's the thing here and there. I can pluck out to prove whatever you believe it was like whoa whoa this is the document that God is given us. Yes, all of the faith, all the understanding and revelation is given to us for us today. You know it's it's not just something to boost my faith or give me a testimony. Imes was to base my faith around this and when you eat when I had that shift that mental shift just completely change my mind about things and so I hope that we tackled that topic faithfully and carefully enough that build Dell see the importance of Scripture also. So whether you have comments on our episodes on structure just just I agree that it is such a important topic to talk about really agree with you there because when you say you got everything counts as Scripture you got your Revelation episode on revelation specifically but all the revelation of the current profits, councils, revelation, and they've got all these are Descriptive and different books of Scripture they count and it really feeds into their reading. You know they can just read the Bible is a standalone bucket has to be influenced by their other scriptures in and really just the Bible is sufficient if it is God's living word than it really just changes the perspective of things not seen. So I really sent to and yeah one thing I notice, I think we mentioned listing that episode was anytime you got another authority beside Scripture that authority usurps the Scripture completely controls the narrative of the Scripture and just takes control and so the Scripture then has no authority and I think that's why we see so much what I like to call doctrinal draft with the LDS church where hundred years ago. They believed different things than they do now because they don't have Scripture anchoring them down like weeding and unchanging Scripture remains the same and doesn't get new revelation is actually what I don't see him having the same gospel all the time. So yeah, I point out there to what you just said Michael we see that in the jungle Christianity today are even in the past century that when churches start to go very off the rails. What is what is the cause that it's because they reject the sufficiency and the authority of Scripture. They reinterpreted through modern lenses or they say.

Well, that was the racist or sexist opinions of that time but we are in a much more enlightened era.

Now one example that is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I think they came out of the southern Presbyterians and they had a dispute about the authority of Scripture and how to interpret it and that cause a big split and so the net for the OPC which is a very conservative as between the nomination, but then you compare that to say the PC USA and have a very liberal view of how to interpret and read Scripture and they just don't see it as something that is the controlling document of the controlling role of faith in other those absolute infallible rule of faith that they see it as part of their faith and they've kind of taken other ideas and philosophies and kind of use that to to reinterpret Scripture and say, well, that was then this is now kind of a thing and so when you had when you had any authority, even if they don't outright deny Scripture or replace it just something okay were to look at Scripture through this lens. Now that ends up distorting Scripture and in a sense, so you had just the of the authority of Scripture for an end of interbeing pictures difficult sword have an episode on hermeneutics where we talk more about this because I think even for those who do have a high view of Scripture we disagree on how to interpret it. And even if we have the same hermeneutics will still disagree on how to interpret certain passages so it's not always clear cut, but but it's amazing to see the ones who do have a high view of Scripture that we do end up agreeing out laughing all the many are going. Michael A CT scan estate, even recently like what you're saying you all read Scripture you interpret it differently.

I say yeah, but not when it comes to the essential doctrines were taking the Bible as our soul authority like you just said if we have a high view of Scripture we actually do come out, leaving the same things on the essential doctrines on the things that really matter and so that argument does all the pieces all I greeted that those what about Scripture episodes were really important. I think it was funny when you said about it's incredible that we had listeners hang on after a four-part episode on on the Scripture, but it really is important and what's interesting to me. Thinking back on those episodes and thinking back on kind of LDS use of Scripture in Latter Day Saints should have a really high view of Scripture given some teachings that they receive. I'm thinking specifically of a passage in the doctrine and covenants that you know when they speak is moved upon by the Holy Ghost, shall be the word of God and shall be Scripture to them right in Florida. A lot of Latter Day Saints. They take that to mean that that what their prophets and apostles say in general conference should be Scripture give you the Scripture and I can think but a lot of Latter Day Saints don't do it that way either. It's easier for them not to view it that way because of contradictions, because Michael was saying what they believe the hundred years ago is not what they believed today, but also if you think about, you know, kind of what what teachings they receive and in the temple endowment with regards to Scripture and how dangerous the philosophies of men mingled with Scripture are and and that's kind of a Barb thrown at the way Christians may be view.

Scripture order the way Latter Day Saints perceive Christians to view Scripture and so you you take those things and then Dell Latter Day Saints should have a really high view of Scripture and also they have this doctrine that that ultimately it's the prophet of the LDS church has the authority to speak on behalf of God and interpret Scripture rightly for them, but when you really get down to brass tacks with Latter Day Saints that there really all are their own authority when it comes to Scripture when you have discussions with them in other kind of all over the place with with the way they approach Scripture about the same time trying to, you know, throw it up in our faces. Christians that you guys are inconsistent, like you said Matthew you know on the on the essentials, even though we may have some differences in some secondary and tertiary doctrines and essentials were we come to the same conclusions based on the Scripture and remember talking about in those episodes. Death, nevermind, I lost my thought on that one house to get something earlier and totally lost it. That's okay.

Maybe I'll come out just work more on on that that the way the Latter Day Saints approach Scripture can. If you would like you were saying Matthew is flawed in some way right that ultimately there's there's this higher authority, whether it be the prophet, or whether it be their own personal revelation from the spirit that is there authority for how to understand Scripture rightly is that it's a very, postmodernist approach to Scripture because the words of Scripture can mean anything.

Latter Day Saints wants them to where this is Latter Day Saints we're but others. As Christians we are beholden to conform our doctrine to the Scripture right and so were beholden to understand the Scripture as it was given by God and so we take very say could be very important to DDN and understand what was meant by passages of Scripture was what was meant by the apostle Paul, as he was preaching to and writing letters to his initial hearers and readers of his letters. What was what was meant by Jesus as he preached in that culture.

In so doing that doing the hard work of hermeneutics and an exegesis to understand what what is the doctrine that comes out of Scripture, rather than what is the doctrine that I put into it from my preconceptions about the other. Those those those episodes were really important yeah and just thinking back to her days in seminary and even our mission when we are teaching our mission where we really going verse by verse and a passage in the Bible and executing it is more like here's a topic or talking on okay here's over as the Bible supports it.

Moving on that there was room anyway yeah I was exactly as you try to find and explain our beliefs, then I would try to find maybe a passage or two in the Bible. Collegiality contacts that would support what I was saying and that would try to find one or two from the book of Mormon in my direction, but yet context is never the thing that I looked at teaching there something I'm not sure if we tackled in that upset or not but it's something I thought a lot about is Latter Day Saints. I always looked at the back Apple seen in you and exactly what I do because the restored gospel is the same for all time. So these people have the same things I do are understanding I do about like eternal salvation. Families are forever temple ordinances things like that now is a Christian. I read it. Saying okay Peter and Paul and the apostles.

They probably didn't have all the exact same idea is for beliefs or understandings as I do know where were not. We don't have to look at the Bible now and say oh they're reformed Baptist, just like me or you know there are many just like me are there Lutherans just like me and I'll will you guessing about that idea similar billings about the yeah I guess they had invented infant baptism yet man is between friends or to kill us boycott us, you, Paul did, did you get what is the point is try to make the know you always have to try to fit our circumstances or our understanding of everything on them and be and then you know for sets of donors to agree with what we believe. Nowadays you know that's a kind of assignment yesterday so we just can't go back to make sure I'm understanding correctly. So what you're saying is we want to try to retrofit our current beliefs in the way review things culturally and societally onto the Bible right we can understand the Scripture in its context and its historical context that commented on for yeah and and I think it's also just the humility of knowing that you know I this is how I believe that Scripture is most cohesively and coherently interpreted but maybe I'm wrong, you know, maybe I'm wrong and Spencer and things like this, so there's a certain level of I think requiring a little bit of humility there is Latter Day Saints like no this is the gospel's only true God spoke the way they mean is a lot to say. I would try to save the Pharisees and Sadducees had some of the gospel truth. You know Barack Sadducees trying to confront Christ in their life a man or a woman married seven brothers whose will she be in the resurrection. Unlike OC that proves that they believe in eternal marriage because they're assuming that there's going to be marriage, but I just totally glossed over the fact that even believe in a resurrection so there is no consistent LDS doctrine there, but I just think I just thrown into the Scriptures when it wasn't fair. If that makes sense. Same thing with the with all the talk about baptism like kind later on in Romans C. He talks about being baptized. But I don't look at the verses before that say that Christ's righteousness is imputed at eight you know that totally set the context for going Christian baptism actually does what it means to try to save it. Paul believed exactly as I so there's an interesting thought, though.

Yeah Latter Day Saints that pigeonholed into that view. That was propagated by Joseph Smith that the fullness of the gospel was preached to Adam and all of the patriarchs down through Abraham that that really kind of pigeonholes them into a particular view of Scripture that that some of the difficulties that flow out of that Michael just described. Pretty well I think so hopefully will be able to tackle more on this topic with a hermeneutics episode is a thought they had, you know it's it's it's liberating to me as I was trying to say to be like okay you know I'm a fallible human baby don't have all the answers quite right. But we do have is an infallible document know that given to us by God and were trying to understand and read it and and show reverence to God by interpreting and reading it consistently.

And so maybe my views you know I'm not. I appreciate both of your opinions in both of your views that you know you're willing to read and understand and can reformulate your beliefs to form to the Bible, not I'm a hard-core semi ways 1689 I never gonna know that's them to live and die by the document.

Although I do I do fillets consistent and on the live and die by it, but at the same time for minor same Scripture when I read it. I compared Scripture. I come back and thinking, yeah, I think this makes sense, is consistent so I'm but we should always be the rallying cry of the Reformation was separate for Monda, which is always reforming bedding should always special beer, not just in reference to the church but also to us as Christians.

Always reforming to Scripture, so there is so much mortgage I was covered just how important it is.

But that's what I really enjoyed that episode or that that series really because it's just so fundamental answer so when we look at Scripture as Christians now so differently is Latter Day Saints and we can write entire books about just how mighty since read Scripture verses how we do now but yeah we could probably make an entire another four episodes on it. Who knows but you. So, yet those are the ones I want to talk about. Also, we can Artie talked about baptism on supper. Think about those of Michael just I enjoy going in-depth on the ordinances and going through the different passages in addressing the ones that Latter Day Saints used to show their view of the sacraments are alien of baptism and the sacrament or the Lord's supper and I tried to win one of our listeners that we mentioned before he he wishes. We had an Arminian view. I can't really remember if we tried to put an Arminian view of the baptism, the Lord's supper. I tried to represent as best as I understood the confessional Lutheran understanding and that's because I've interacted a lot with confessional Lutherans online.

It's kind of dived into Trent understand their opinion on things because it is. It's quite interesting. It's kind of like it's a very high views of the sacraments as compared to maybe a lot of other evangelicals and reading that I could see the way that they understand certain passages in any kind of help me to understand certain things in a different way and I say okay I can understand and that light and help me personally because of a lot of reformat this today don't really know the history of the reformed Baptist theology. They kind of have it's it's more like there they they feel like modern Baptists and ages, slap tulip on top of it. But when you look in history. The reformed Baptist theology is actually quite different, especially regarding the sacraments at a very high sex mentality they they believe that the baptism, the Lord's supper were effective or efficacious for salvation, but for those who have faith. So kind of interacting with the Lutheran view in reading the historical reformat to CMI gather actually not that two different course. Lutherans baptize infants but but I really I really enjoyed talking with autism Lord's supper just because it's key to the Christian faith is Latter Day Saints. I thought I thought that there were there were Nicene own Christians had baptism and the Lord's supper is nice of them to do that. But since I don't have the priest said that no matter don't actually do anything. But as a Christian. Now it's in no I see now that it isn't. They are important to us are vital to our faith and before I thought the most Christians in name and do it like well you know they believe they're saved by grace alone. I would even bother getting baptize around you bother Lord supper if you like and yet entirely same source.

The point but then really understanding why it's important to the continuing life and faith of the Christian faith, and each believer it's it's yeah just really enjoy doesn't help that blesses people listen to me any comments on this, yeah, want to jump in here share something that but I didn't kind of preparation for our first episodes on on what about the sacraments, but didn't share it during our conversation there. One of the things that I did as a seminary student and by that I mean Christian seminary not Mormon seminary, but is it as a seminary student working towards a degree in biblical studies as I wanted to understand okay if I'm a Protestant Christian. What do the Roman Catholics with Eastern Orthodox believe right because the odious position is kind of the church is organized by Christ. Then there's an apostasy Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy are part of that apostasy. Protestantism is a subpart of the way back, but not all the way back, which is why, according to LDS views of of history you need a restoration rather than a Reformation something. It's interesting to kind of look at the sacraments that are accepted by Latter Day Saints Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants and then ask the question why do Protestants have so few so if you look LDS sacraments right that got baptism which they say is a saving ordinance confirmation which is the beginning of the gift of the Holy Ghost. According to Latter Day Saints and that's a saving ordinance. They have no Keswick priesthood organist organization for males which is also a view to stating temple washing and anointing and the endowment which is a saving ordinance marriage ceiling which the saving ordinance by saving ordinance as I'm in all of those are required for full salvation and exultation. According Latter Day Saints doctrine naming and blessing of children which is not essential, but an ordinance that they do. Nonetheless, consecrating oil nonessential, but it's something, but do nonetheless and then administering to the sick and the afflicted with that which is also nonessential, but something that they do which are said to be all solidly said priesthood ordinances. Roman Catholics have baptism which is viewed as a mission initiatory right confirmation. Also in initiatory right as is the Eucharist and they have additional sacraments that are not initiatory reconciliation and penance, which is viewed as a healing sacrament anointing of the sick, which is viewed as a healing sacrament holy orders, and marriage and Eastern orthodoxy was very similar. They had baptism which the initiatory right this nation which is the same as confirmation of the Roman Catholic Church sedition and initiatory right, the Eucharist, that penance anointing of the sick order switches like holy orders in the Roman Catholic Church may have marriage and then when you get to Protestant views of the sacraments you have two so Latter Day Saints have eight Roman Catholics have seven Eastern Orthodox have seven Protestants have to baptism and the Lord's supper which of the two that we discussed in depth in our episodes on what about the sacraments. We do, and so it's an interesting question to look at that kind of comparison where there's 877 and then to and asked the question why are there only to Protestant Christianity doesn't is it logical to say more is better.

Latter Day Saints have eight Roman Catholics have seven Eastern Orthodox have seven was logical. Ask the more save more is better. I don't think it is white wine Protestants have just to Matthew what would you say so really comes down to our definition as to what qualifies as a sacrament because Protestants also will ordain people to the eldership in a note to the entity overseer ship Esther's deacons so they have that we don't consider it a sacrament. We also do you have marriage but we also don't consider that a sacraments of the way I think that most Protestants throughout history have defined a sacrament is something that is commanded by Christ and it's for the church. So for the entire church and so by definition you look at holy orders well or orders. Let's suffer the entire church because not everyone is made into a pastor or deacon or priest or whatever you want to call him so they're not all ordained to the ministry and you look at marriage will not everybody's married either, you know, Paul's been first contained seven talks about how there some that are called the E celibate to lead a single life so end of the blessings for the sick or you know last rites, extreme unction, or whatever you want to call. Depending on the tradition. Those are for everybody either. So I think when you narrow down to that definition. It's a sacred right or ritual, commanded by Christ for the entire church. The only ones that fit that are baptism and more supper exactly and where. Where does it come from, that is commanded by Christ. So for baptism. I mean you can point to the great commission in Matthew 28 is going to all the nations, making disciples, baptizing them in them in the name of the father son and Holy Ghost, but in virtue that stuff a memory and then as far as Lord supper that would be at the last supper with his disciples present do this and a member of remembrance of me. But I guess you could take that in a limited sensory's command just of the apostles, but since we have further revelation like first Corinthians 11 and 12, 10, 11, 10, 11, where August continuing instruction on the Lord supper. We see that's not just for the disciples, but for the entire church so that's can I would point to the show that it's committed by Christ for all the church directed my my point there being that that the Protestant belief into sacraments flows from Scripture, so goes to be the importance of the Protestant call to go back to the sources which for Christians is Scripture. So even even though Latter Day Saints claim a great apostasy, and they claim that the accretions of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are part of that apostasy when you when you compare ordinances or sacraments. You see some of the same accretions show up in the Latter Day Saints and even even though they may be called by something different. Select temple washing and anointing in terms of how it is performed with being in anointing with oil was similar to Chris nation and Eastern Orthodox church such things interesting that that the claim is made that there is an apostasy in the that it is a taking away of things and an accretion of things that don't belong. But you see the Latter Day Saints faith adopt many of those accretions, the kind of come not from the Bible but from tradition suggests an entry point that I didn't bring out when we were preparing for those episodes, but I wanted to bring out now since you brought up to my ideas in my mind to understand mean if there was a great apostasy in the church was restored, then why are Latter Day Saints, so similar to these other religions know how it's only the apostasy didn't really happen because there's so many similarities.

They have so many sacraments just like these other religions and then why is Protestantism got so few your wire. We, the standouts, when there the restored church and we are not, you know, why does that happen.

The skin on my mind when you're talking. I can recall. I can recall if it was in general conference or like seminary is Latter Day Saints but I heard it. Basically their whole reason we needed the Reformation was to just break free from the authority of the Pope like that is about it.

Yeah, that's really house you derive some of you have any more comments on our episodes on structure, or any other episode you want to bring up the RA looks like a time to wrap up then you thanks for joining us for this recap of our articles of faith series there still more to go ahead and keep track of how many we have left to do two or three looks like something like that anyways which I don't doing delete did we finish our entire articles of faith series – directory didn't 13th tonight or done okay awesome essay. I thought that maybe I just haven't uploaded them yet on to our YouTube channel. Those going through and I see 123-456-8611 so I guess I'm missing a couple or ethics are doing is for that series were gladly joined us and sorry to some of them were long-winded, but we had a lot to say about some of these topics and were gladly join us. So you think you also for this recap and if you have any edit suggestions for apps is in the future, please let us know. Or if you feel like there's something we missed in one of these articles of faith episode, we would definitely be willing to go back and do another redux episode.

Marie to fill in those gaps. So think firefighter join us and I will see next time you think you into this episode of the outer podcast we love to hear from please visit the out of rightist Facebook.

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