What About The Trinity?, Pt. 3 (Articles of Faith Series)

This is conducive was showing us the darkness, address tumor as well. You know the document that he makes it. At first glance it appears to be a really sophisticated argument against the Trinity because of the LDS perspective that all things are made out of this really fine matter, intelligence, and so he can attack the Trinity without it dismantling his own theology, but then when you dig into it a little bit deeper. It is definitely a double edged sword. He is playing with one thing and I told him this. Floors like you you you do realize that you know the Holy Ghost in Mormon theology is a spirit as well and so I guess the Holy Ghost doesn't exist but then nearly comes back. Same wall. The Holy Ghost is still matter. Spirits are matter in Mormonism, just a very fine fine matter. I will find matter and what that does is it just really destroys Mormon theology because with the teaches that we all came to earth in order to obtain bodies and if we already had physical forms of some kind than we Artie had bodies and there was no need for us to come here in the first place because basically just come to receiving another form of body and I guess it's not even as nice as the one that we had before.

It's kind of a downgrading yarn that we can get sick and no pain. And all those other kinds of things so yeah just it just really does not make sense with with Mormon theology suggests this is one of those things. It is just for the shock value. That's really all it's good for, but then when she doing just a couple centimeters into it you realize it's not really an effective argument at all. Reminds me of some of the questions asked in the summer you tell him, or worse, oh yeah are some notes while I will say this guy that made those arguments. His dad yell at your target going off what you're saying Michael and we talked about earlier is that it does make sense if you think about this. This plan of salvation. Being a plan of eternal progression as a lattice is caught because like you said it if if we already had a body does is pure and refined and then in order to progress read to take on this corrupted body of flesh and then have it redeemed and restored and glorified. It seems like were.

It's it seems like a roller coaster.

It's not really a progression like Alina progression like you'd expect. So it just seems strange that in order to gain a greater spiritual state or greater spiritual status. We have to take on a corrupted body on top of our perfected material body or material spirit.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me will in it gets even worse that Matthew because you know you the theology is that you know children, so are our spirits are adults in Mormonism, but you know your body could be a child, and so if your child and you die, you go back to your refined spirit body, but you're also an adult.

But then, when the resurrection happens, you go back to being a kid again, and so yeah it really is a roller coaster and it's not a progression at all. It's it's a bunch of ups and downs while seeking to a thought just came to mind is when you read John 17 one passages lattice is left to share with to prove that Jesus is not God or the Jesus and God are separate says and this is life eternal, that they know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

If you continue, he says I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now you father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed and this is clear to me that and in this passage Jesus is saying that before he took on human flesh. He was, he had the same glory as God is this God the father.

He was in the presence of the father. That's what John one also says, but there are various places like him some cocky especially that says that Jesus, despite being" the God of the Old Testament, as is letter six: he had not reached perfection in terms of what God the father had he still had to come to earth and earn his salvation, and obey God and progress eternally. So Jesus still had to go on this line of eternal progression as Christians see that Christ has eternally been God.

He didn't need to take on flesh to become something greater.

He's already God, he took on flesh to save us, to save his people. It was it was it was a covenant like the God had created beforehand to send the son to come to perform this redemptive act, but it's not as if Jesus had to do it in obedience to earn some kind of greater exaltation or something like that so that's another fundamental problem with their understanding of God. Good stuff kind connected to the thought was just thinking in a kind of ties in the simplest of her discussing earlier today be a child but so the Mormon Godhead right the contrast of the Trinity Christians will send the Trinity is the goddess trying to write holy one God in three persons fully united. In essence, and Mormons will say no, God's unity comes in and their desires.

There will turn Mormons use my gosh's been too long one and one thing we are to see one in purpose. There we go wow now too long voice to say like you really LDS woman asked me about for a long time but yet so one purpose right you think about that isn't isn't that being one in purpose, voluntary right so Jesus in the incarnation have decided not to obey not to drink the bitter cup and what or is worth one on or if one of the three decided not to be one in purpose now than what right where is on on on the Christian view of God. God's unity is essence is, in essence, and try to put into words where I'm going with this. So goddess God is holy God is just and and everything that God does is holy and so there's not the risk that I see on the Mormon Godhead view of one member of the Godhead decided to just not go with the plan as an Islamic sense. You're basically saying that there is the potential for there to be disunity within the LDS view of the Godhead. Yeah, especially when you tie that would their view of free will, where I mean I remember distinctly what I was heading out of the church and out mentally and spiritually, and I was learning things of the Bible about God, where, and this was one thing the push me out even further was I was in an Institute class and we were talking about God and and one of the elder missionaries. He teaches a class that the Bible study that the Scripture study class. He said God does not touch free will. He cannot touch free will and I just really stuck out in my mind because I been reading about Pharaoh I've been reading about Joseph's brother sold amended to Egypt said their evil was was what they did was for evil but what God did or meant for it was for good.

So God had a purpose and in the happening and Psalm 115 W. says that whatever is in heaven on earth.

God whatever God wants is what happens in the heavens and the earth. He has complete sovereignty.

So when you when you view that view of free will and LDS theology as being like the ultimate thing that even God must bow to this free will. Yeah I don't know how you can capture the idea that one of the members, the Godhead could rebel and I've even heard Latter Day Saints say that even in heaven we will have free well so it is even possible in heaven to and that's a really scary thought.

Because where is our assurance of salvation.

Where is our where is our how can we know that will be withheld in heaven with God forever if we can still send that so that's a terrifying thought to me and something else and just dumped my mind just listen you guys talk to you others that moment in in Gethsemane where Jesus says it would be possible, take this cup from me and it seems like going to the LDS view like for a second there, they wouldn't of been wanting purpose yeah that's it that's I was actually thinking of that passage when I say well if Jesus is God, why did he say to submit to God's willing why did he pray for God to strengthen him while going back to Christ's incarnation. He was he was he willingly took upon himself the limitations of humanity which meant you got hungry on Thursday. I also think that he was just racked with this. This is not knowledge that he was going to take the sins of the world upon them. The following day like that was just a huge burden on his shoulders bottom to such a depth of agony that you sweat and what it means biting us 20 drops of blood. It's possible that he could have had so much stress that there was sweat mixed in with blood. But yeah, there's, there's, it wasn't saying that Jesus was going against of all the father or could have the possibility of going against the will to follow. Okay so in answer this question. First, the question is what helps you to embrace the Trinity. So a lot of it for me was initially I was fighting against the Trinity a lot and so I was learning about all the different passages that Christians like to use to support the Trinity and I was looking at those in trying to figure out ways around them and one of the things a I realized was that the Trinity was a very strong very strong doctrine that it was superior to model is man's end and the other positions that people take. I didn't think that it was as strong as the Godhead, but I did notice that a lot of the verses that Mormons take literally to support the Godhead can also be understood metaphorically and they work really well for the Trinity, or vice versa and I kind of thought that the first vision just really sealed the deal.

But even without the first vision I believed that my understanding of the LDS Godhead was founded very strongly in the Bible that it was a better position than the Trinity and that my understanding was biblical die. I came to doubt the Joseph Smith was a prophet and I realize that the church wasn't true and I was very surprised to find that once I didn't find Joseph Smith credible in the first vision was no longer that cherry on top. The whole position crumpled immediately. You know, I thought it was the cherry on top. It was actually the whole foundations was that first vision and the minute that that first vision crumpled. I was like okay well the Trinity is really all that's left. There is no other position that comes close to making sense as I was kinda stuck immediately with the Trinity has to be true. And yet is just such a stumbling block for me that it's united as I've just been dragged kicking and screaming to the point of finally saying you know what the Trinity actually does make sense, and it is biblical so it's just been a real long process point by point, but yet is going through all my old arguments been able to see how weekly actually are and it didn't just happen tonight.

Paul in Matthew, Michael. The Bible doesn't contain the word true yeah don't you see that's that.

You know that's a really know but that's that's basically how I I've come to accept the Trinity them in the Bible is very clear that there is there is only one God, but the father the son of the Holy Ghost are also all God that they exist simultaneously.

So that's my answer for you student to I am sticking to you better hurry. Come find you down is not the reroll isn't real rollaway is about to go tell my posse needed to were not gonna show down to Texas for the night just just remember, if you do come for me. I live in Dallas.

Apparently, somehow, organize our brother in Dallas and sister and brother-in-law in Dallas Kaman TV show called Dallas I'm on is a good show I'm entitled to make a mistake right. Besides, it's after midnight, but only millennial's weren't allowed to entitlement how the kind of hurt RA out under gone so you will have the dual say alright so what help me to accept the Trinity so it was for me.

I was I was kind like at I still struggle with the view of the Trinity, because as Latter Day Saints were taught that the Trinity is not in the Bible were taught that it was probably an invention by Constantine at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. the tradition of men, etc. etc. like Jesus never taught the Trinity and or and really it. It's not taught distinctly in one single passage of Scripture. You can't point to for example like summer enrollments where it gives a extensive lengthy treatise on the Trinity so we have to admit that, but what we have to be willing to examine is okay if it's not explicitly given in Scripture in one single passage can we arrive at it systematically and just watching a lot of videos from people for like RC scroll and James White just looking at and how they teach the Trinity and how they were so bold and saying the Trinity is biblical and like at first I just thought against know it's a biblical son in the bump but I was willing to learn and got its start softening my heart and one of the very first Christian book that I read was the forgotten Trinity by James White and I had started reading that while still attending my LDS Ward and so he starts off the very first line the book it says I love the Trinity and that there was really just a profound statement from the state. I know most people say I love Jesus will of God. But he says I love the Trinity is an economic really hooked me in reading through it.

He does a really great job of showing the various aspects of the Trinity. Bit by bit, you have to start off at the very fundamental doctrine of monotheism that, as Michael said that there is only one God there's no God before the God of creation, we see that Deuteronomy 4 3539 Deuteronomy 6 verse 4C, then Isaiah 4310 44 638-4552 six. He said also in the New Testament with first contains eight which I would love to go over the passage may be in a future episode.

But that's one that Mormons love to use to try to disprove the Trinity because it says that now there's one God the father and one Lord Jesus Christ, but if you go backwards diverse floor in that chapter says we know that there is no God but one. So why would Paul contradict himself by saying there's only one God. In verse four and then say though there are God's many and lords many thrusters one God the father and one more Jesus Christ we see in in the Old Testament that God refers to himself both as God and Lord.

So in verse five when it says that the father is God and Christ as Lord is not saying there separate or that Christ is in God. It's it's actually saying that Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament is both the father and the son. And so we would we come to this understanding that there is only one God and then that that is like the foundation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

We have to start there.

If you don't start there and you're going to just get messed up, no matter where you go in the passage that really help me understand. That was 43%. Isaiah 43 verse 10 which says you are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen you may know and believe me and understand that IMP before me know God was formed, nor shall there be any after me and that verse just like really stuck in my mind when I read that because as Latter Day Saints.

I believe that I was going to exceed God, but I believe the doctrine and covenants 132, which says that you shall be God's. I believe that I was going to attain a similar kind of status as the father. I thought I was going to become like him, but that verse in Isaiah 4310 just completely destroy that idea says that there is no God before Yahweh is no God after him. There's no being even even call you close to him and his status as God is so with that knowledge we have to understand okay so anytime it references God is referencing this one God, Yahweh, but we also see in Scripture that, as Michael explained the father is God the son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

In acts chapter 5 is that the Holy Spirit is God for the father being out of many verses like John chapter 1 is of John 17 and Christ is God have that many places John one John 17 second Peter 11 is a great one. Colossians 1 through two. So we just have summary passages that attest that there's only one God name Yahoo but father is Yahweh, the son is Yahweh and the Holy Spirit is Yahweh. So all three persons are Yahweh, but that doesn't mean that you confound or confuse the persons we always want to distinguish the persons but we also want to say that their coequal. They have their consubstantial you will find that in Scripture.

But what that saying is that the stuff stuff that makes each person God.

Each person of the Trinity has that stuff that essence that so we we use these extra medical terms like Trinity being essence consubstantial to explain ideas that are taught in Scripture, but are not especially given from Scripture, you can derive them. So all of these things. Isaiah 4310. The forgotten Trinity that reiterating also just listening to RC scroll James White Bodie Baucom.

All these reform teachers all that just cannot coalesced my mind and it just logically just made sense. That is why we call nuclear boom lame phonological mom down like drop so what what is it that helped me to embrace the Trinity. So each of you touched on the idea that that is a is a latter-day St. The Trinity is, like, verboten. It's like it's anathema and I remember going back to late when I was a kid in primary right what what is presented to you as the Trinity is actually not the Trinity. It would joke about Moodle is impacted public. That is what emotionalism is what Mormons critique and think they're critiquing the Trinity. Even up to Jeffrey R.

Holland and conference and he's no dodo. From what we know but emotionalism is what the critique and I think when I realized that shifted things for me, but even going back to my time in the LDS church. I think I told you guys might my uncle was a born-again Christian in my data converted to from Lutheranism to latter-day St. Faith and my uncle sent my dad a wall hanging a plot had the first several verse five or so verses of John chapter 1 on it and my dad hung out at our house and I read all the time and I remember reading you know in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And remember, just try and in my mind to get my get my head around that is a latter-day St. like how I can know the word is referring to Jesus preexistence for your life so how could Jesus be God before you gone through the progression that you were talking about earlier Matthew and just rule that passage over and over and over my head and realized over time that you know there's something about that passage that doesn't fit with Mormon teachings and then the question became so how, where does that passage fit without having to make it say something that does not. So then is as I made my transition out of letters and for those is very much like like Michael Larson and I was like oh I'm a Christian.

Don't know about that Trinity thing though, and I remember you going to start described the started to go to a church that historically has connections to the American restoration movement and although the founder, Alexander Campbell, some might argue he wasn't a full Trinitarian and there been other leaders within that movement throughout its history that have rejected the Trinity, but you know one of that one of the statements that they have is to know Bible names for Bible things you know you can touch on that Matthew with use of extra biblical terms. Another the statements that they use is where you where the Bible speaks, we speak with the Bible is silent we are silent and snow could be Christ right which candidate was the kind of belies the fact that historically, this movement has been a little at times anti-creedal, not in a nod and a wholly negative sense, but in the sense of know the Bible should be our source of doctrine and are not not critics, but that's the nuts from historical history religions perspective that's where Mormonism commented status well this is, coming out of the same. Some MSM water, so to speak.

In America, so I remember hearing that the new could, but Christ's statement thinking sweet. I don't have to accept my CF if I'm going to going to attend this church you know and the when I started to go to a seminary for biblical studies degree that the seminary also has its history in the restoration movement member sitting in church history class and the professor said hey let some let's recite the Council of Nicaea.

The profession of faith from perimeter eliminating fathers from the Council of Nicaea and I was like all this is, this will be interesting to see how this goes over.

Among this group because kind of a kind of a history of anti-creedal is him here and the know we recited it, and his accident wasn't so bad and is likely what was and then the that I got in my theology management theology course and started reading the professors book Bible doctrines which then I was thinking yeah you know Bible is our source of truth Bible doesn't have the Trinity and it and I got to this chapter on on God and he is a whole section on their about God being Trinity and I was like when it was his. This email had not been sold a bill of goods and, but as I read through his chapter and solve the biblical evidence that he was laying out for God is Trinity which Matthew very skillfully covered already so not to go into it, but all of the inhibitions that I had about the Trinity fell away because I could see that it was a biblical doctrine.

Are there extra biblical terms that are used to describe biblical truths. Yes, there are in the in the descriptions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes extra biblical terms are used, but as Michael clearly stated.

The Bible is clear that there is one God and that there are three persons who are God the father the son and the Holy Ghost, and those those teachings in Scripture are undeniable and so you reach a point where you have to ask question okay so if not the Trinity than what if you are Bible believing person and so really it was it was the one the one passage in John one. That just wouldn't let go of my mind when I was LDS and then it was a deeper dive into the biblical support and evidence for the doctrine that really helped me traverse the Trinity. If you if you think about all the data that we talked about the only way to systematically put together is because if you say that there's only one God. But there's only one person you get emotionalism so that's that's the position. Like you said LDS restrainer if you they say well it was Jesus praying himself in the garden melted to the father become the son or and and and that's obviously false. We believe there's three persons because Scripture teaches it, and they go to the other extreme, and you're left with with tritheism, you're left with three separate gods getting on the father's God the son is a separate God and the knowledge that is is an entirely third God and that's also wrong because God's only is only one God.

So the only way to really reconcile everything without contradicting yourself or just making nonsense of Scripture is the Trinity then it was interesting suggestion that you made earlier Matthew to read the review created and when you made the suggestion of a commercial on the my file drawer and pulled out my my file with all my papers from the survey of church history course because I remembered one of the things that I did when when I was in that coarsening, really starting into my seminary studies was to print out first Council of Nicaea first Council of Constantinople.

All of the all of the ecumenical councils of the church and to read through them like a member sitting at the I was at the gym exhausted my daughters that they were not the gymnastics course and so I was sitting in the food court at the gym and I had infirmities print outs of the economical councils and my theology book and just going back and forth like looking at the passages in the data in the Bible that support the Trinity and comparing it with the professions of faith and just a very eye-opening experience to realize that you know what what people generated generally call you know that the philosophies of man and that kind of thing with regard to the to the creeds was was really them wrestling with the data from Scripture and as you said, presenting it in a systematic way and if people I know that some people leaving Mormonism are in the LDS church have a problem with that term. Trinity and others, negative connotation to it. If they don't like that word they can call the can call God God or the Godhead as long as we understand that when not referring to LDS Godhead, but there were Godhead can be found in Scripture, let them it's it's not the word that were defending. It's the doctrine it's what it teaches what it's what it points to and you can you can go on Google and like you said that the decrees are awesome I thought my reading Athanasian Creed that's come along one so maybe it maybe up a deposit. But I love the Athanasian Creed because it's just so detailed and it's just if you go through there really isn't that complicated.

You know, and there's websites you can just Google like Nicene Creed with scriptural proofs or Athanasian Creed of Scripture approves and it will show that that these things are not new things like incentive and belief. Since beginning and you can look at I should've looked at this before I have the apostolic fathers and should out there and shun passages where it talks about, you know, there's often a reference is made to the father, son and Holy Spirit.

So while they didn't have this like completely thought out, you know, systematic codified view of the Trinity until counsel, Nicaea, and even then there are still Christological issues that they dealt with, you know, does Christ have two natures does he have one.

Nature does have two wheels that one will. These are things are worked out in time, but they always went back to Scripture to find the answer. But even since the very beginning. Since the first century, we see extra biblical authors writing in very Trinitarian kind of terminology error in the way they spoke is very Trinitarian, even if they did in their minds have everything figured out like one of the things I really like to just being on the side of the divide is how how much on the same page you know Christian Christianity is when it comes to the Trinity because I was LDS unit. We would talk about our position and everybody would have a little bit of a different position. Some people would say that they were monotheists. Some would say they were handle theists. I would say that I was a tritheism list and some people would look down on me for saying that because it's a wall you know we don't worship Jesus and the Holy Ghost, but but no just challenge you know any latter-day Saints listen to this to just go go look at the Trinity with an open mind and I think you'll find that that it is much stronger than you think it is and is a stumbling block and I know that it's really easy to look at it and think that there's weaknesses to it and and just kind of want to write it off and I just can't think of Pharaoh chasing the Israelites into the. The split the split ocean, you know thinking that that was not a fight that he can win his and it wasn't a flight that he can win and I think that just really is a good picture for me to of how my fight with the Trinity has gone which is not well definitely just come to see that that it is a true biblical doctrine, and I encourage you to search, ponder and praying that I'm sure that is what you will discover as well. Amen.

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