What About Salvation?, Pt. 1 (Articles of Faith Series)

Was all things were made through him and without him was nothing made him was life and the life was like the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. Listening to our brightness, contrast, like Jesus and turn away. This is so excessively. Michael Singh welcome to this episode of the other brightness podcast. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, were commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. We may use nicknames or abbreviations of the church such as LDS, Mormon, etc. but not in an attempt to be pejorative or insulting, but as a reflection of our personal experiences as Latter Day Saints or these terms are used interchangeably reference to ourselves and or the church. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Some biblical teachings might consider us sons of perdition. The inheritors of outer darkness, who supposedly knew the truth and rejected it. The name of our podcast out of brightness reflects the gospel of John, chapter 1 and the Bible specifically verse nine which calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone, we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be in the light, we have is not our own that comes to us from without. Thus, outer brightness making the transition from Mormonism to broader Christianity can be exciting and scary confusing challenging and ultimately life-giving our aim here is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in our lives and drawing us to his son will have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, new beliefs, surprises, enjoys were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. I Matthew the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan. The third article states, we believe that a man may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I spent two years as an LDS missionary trying to convince others, including Christians, to accept the LDS gospel part of that process included repentance or turning away from sin. However, repentance was to be a lifelong pursuit. After all, we were always going to fall short. But repentance was a way to gradually overcome sin and be the righteous men and women God expected us to be. I believe that faith alone was not sufficient to grant eternal fellowship with the father in the celestial kingdom. James 220, was always at the forefront of my mind, reminding me that faith without works was dad. The trouble came when after 32 years of trying, I kept falling short. Instead of gradually climbing the stairway to heaven. My life was a roller coaster of highs and lows.

I couldn't bring myself to be righteous, no matter how hard I try. As I studied the Bible I began to wrestle with concepts. I didn't understand. How could Paul preached easy believe is without batting an eyelash. Where were his qualifications, explaining that free actually meant. After all we could do slowly, a belief system.

I had scoffed at and reviewed his two-dimensional payment of focus grace as a sufficient and totally free gift was something I thirsted for desperately.

I began to see the gospel is elegant and simple.

A true beacon of God's unconditional love for his children today IN the other sons of light will be discussing how our view of salvation change during our transition into Christianity. When asked Matthew this question.

First, how important Matthew do you think it is to believe in a correct gospel to be a Christian. Are there great areas to this Oscar? I mean, I guess. I guess a really defiant depends on how you define the parameters of what you call the gospel because sometimes people might make a very specific declaration of what the gospel is and anything outside that is a false gospel. You'll find this in particular with a lot of hyper colonists. I guess it's kind like a tangent but basically they would say that if you don't follow their particular stream of theology are not safe. So that's just one example showing where people will define what the gospel is narrowly or broadly on an individual level, but I think what the gospel presents or what the Bible presents as the gospel is very simple and there aren't many gospels have regular pulses us, always in Galatians raised speaking to the Galatians, who have turned away to another gospel and that he immediately says well it's not another gospel.

So if there's any other truth, that's contrary to the truth that they presented to them. Sign another gospel. It's a false gospel and the gospel that the Galatians are being tricked into believing was from a group called the Judaizers there kind of like a group of Jewish people who had kind of accepted the gospel, but they wanted to bring Christians back to their Jewish roots. So we don't have a ton of information on them. But we know that one thing they're trying to do is to convince people to go back to circumcision, but you couldn't become a Christian until you had already been a Jew, or if your Gentile had to be circumcised and so Paul rebuked the Galatians for going after these false teachings from these Judaizers and he doesn't just explain in very soft terms that how you know you you you got the gospel mostly right. So in forgiving Barry and Albert were pretty close. He is very strong terminology of her things that they were there been caught up in so let me find a passage in Galatians Galatians 2 Galatians 3 so Paul says in Galatians 3 sign verse 1O foolish Galatians who has bewitched you as before your eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

Let me ask you. Loneliness did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith.

Are you so foolish. Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh.

If you suffer so many things in vain. If indeed it was in vain to see what supplies the spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by the works of the law or by hearing with faith, just as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham and the Scriptures are saying that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preach the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, and you shall all the nations be blessed.

So, than those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. I continues on and speaks of how the righteous will live by faith.

So he's really rebuking them for their basically trying to be righteous by calling the law and he speaks in uncertain terms of their basically cup cutting himself off from Christ.

So yeah, it's really long answer.

I guess the bullet down on say that you can't deviate from the core message of the gospel that is that the righteous through faith in Christ, just as Abraham believed God, and was counted to him as righteousness.

If we try to add anything else to the gospel or take away anything from that and that's a different gospel so there is no real gray area there. I think it's pretty clear cut, but as for there a lot of issues as per our baptism fits into the gospel as to how regeneration fits into the gospel is a lot of aspects of salvation get into any can get kind of meaty but I think it's very clear that were saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and I think that's essential that we just can't begin deviate from that and still call it the gospel. I agree completely, Paul. What you think I think it's very important to believe in the correct gospel to be a Christian for a number reasons and I think first we have to define will renew my gospel right the Greek word in the Bible. In the New Testament that is translated as is gospel is on bdellium and admin's good news and we get our English word from a similar phrase in old English Godspell, which basically means God spell announcement so the word means good news. So the question is what is the good news that was being preached by our Lord Jesus, and by his apostles in the New Testament, Matthew touched on Galatians I was I was going to touch on that as well but covered. I really, really well.

I just want to emphasize what Paul says in verse seven of chapter 1 there were he kinda clarifies that there there there is no other gospel is astonished at the Galatians are so quickly deserting him and called them into the grace of Christ, and he says they're going after another gospel clarifies that there is no other gospel writers with as if there was any other good news so I think I think based on that is critically important.

Leaving the correct gospel within the question becomes what is that right and if you look at the Bible, you can kinda take a broad approach or a narrow focus to kind of define what what the gospel is so you can start with, like Isaiah 52 seven which is how beautiful upon the mountains of the feet of him who brings good news publishers piece brings good news of happiness publishes salvation says to Zion, your God reigns so you know there Isaiah is saying that the gospel, the good news is related to reign of God the kingdom of God and in Mark one verses 14 and 15 says no after John the Baptist was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God and saying the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe in the gospel so Jesus there is, is proclaiming the reign of God is plain mixing of God is there in Mark 1045 Jesus says, for even the Son of Man, referring to himself not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. Have first Corinthians 15 14 was, like a classic place where a lot of people go to define what the gospel is biblically what Paul says no. I would remind you, brothers of the gospel I preached to you, which you received in which you stand and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and you have first Peter three a.

Teamwork Christ rapidly says for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous is a business exchange, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit so the best, like a broad survey.

The good news is that Christ died for our sins as a ransom for many it was. He was raised on the third day as a is a powerful witness to what you done on the cross and because of that, there's this exchange that takes place, the righteous Jesus for the unrighteous are sinners and then take a narrow focus.

Philippians 1 2728 stand and staying in Philippians Philippians chapter 1 verse 27, 20 says only let your manner of life worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come, come and see you or am absent, I may she review that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side-by-side for the faith of the gospel and not frightened and anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction of your salvation, and that from God.

So salvation is from God and there's an aspect of it. That's related to faith. Philippians 3 verse 89 says, and we hear this in the song that is our outer episode. Indeed, I count everything is lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.

So Paul makes it clear that the good news is tied up with being in Christ being found in Christ and having a righteousness that is not your own. But that comes through faith, a righteousness from God that depends on faith and in Philippians 26629 Paul says, but he emptied himself of Jesus by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even to death on the cross is the obedience of Christ.

That is the righteousness from God write his obedience for our disobedience that exchange the takes place in so why is it important than to believe in the true gospel. I think for for couple of reasons.

Once you understand and enter into.

So you have the assurance of your salvation because if you don't believe that your salvation is solely reliant upon God and upon what he offers to through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. If you're counting on your own righteousness to in some way save you. And that leads to a whole host of issues that I can get into later and will get into later as we continue to discuss but Tom covered part of the question about great areas on salvation as an individual matter is wholly a gracious work of God from front to back in John Piper. I was reading an article where he's he's talking about REMIC Catholicism disease answering questions about whether a devout Roman Catholic can be saved, and he had this to say an end and I agree with what he says here is that if a person has a genuine encounter with the living Christ and recognizes the depth of human sinfulness and of the hopelessness we are and without grace and without Christ and if they see in Jesus the substitute for God provided to bear punishment and provide all we need for acceptance with God. If that person throws himself on the mercy of Christ despairing of all self-reliance and cherishes Christ as his supreme treasure and hope for eternal life, and that person will be saved, even if many doctrinal ideas are confused erroneous. In other words, it is possible for a person's heart in this essential grasp of Christ to be far better than this structures of his own doctrinal framework. We all may be very very thankful for this right will tenant echo what he has a body segment. What really got me thinking about this question in the first place was I was going to church and they started doing this series in Sunday school talking about what all the denominations believe in and what sets them apart which I was really excited for because I'm like okay that I can finally place and catch up here and learn a thing or two about the different denominations and the instructor was just saying how there's different views of how how grace works in any kind of listed Roman Catholicism in there with the other denominations and he said you know a lot of people don't believe that Catholics are Christian is a piece that I disagree with that. I think that it is a gray area, so he use that specific word and it really got me thinking about things a lot it actually didn't really sit well with me. To be honest, Kenneth gave me some anxiety because I know that Roman Catholicism does not believe in imputed righteousness that some of the reasons that the Reformation had to take place because it wasn't it wasn't biblical doctrine deeply believe in something called infused righteousness, and it reminds me a lot of what Latter Day Saints believe in you. I'm seeing more more Latter Day Saints say that it is Christ's righteousness that saves us, but in the even use the word imputation which drives me crazy because unlike you guys when even know what this word was if we want you know trying to witness to you all the time and and I you chided say that it's your word and it's not but the sale we believe in an imputation yeah Christ gives his righteousness to us little by little, as we are obedient, you know like it's some kind of reward system, and that's exactly what Paul talks about in Romans Yoshi who he who works basically that the graces become a wage rather than a gift and that's when it turns it into in my opinion. I know that's not necessarily popular opinion, but in a minute. Go to the Galatians to apparently that is inspired all of us tonight, but in nine Galatians 54 says nor severed from Christ.

He who would be justified by the law that I remember talking to my my my family members right after I left the church and saying that no Christ's grace was enough and she thought about it for a few days. Came back to me. She said you know what I agree with you. Actually, Christ's righteousness, his grace, it is enough.

But there can always be more to imply that we can always be better. We can always present something else and you know we've we've talked about Christ exchanging his righteousness for us on the cross and in the real question is what can we add to his righteousness, and the answer is nothing we can't add anything to his righteousness because it is already perfect. It is already full. It is infinite righteousness, and you can add anything to infinite righteousness and and kind of surprised that Latter Day Saints don't understand it because they do ordinances of the dead take baptism for the dead. For instance, they believe that the work that they are doing on behalf of the deceased counts as a full baptism. The dead people don't have to do anything except accept what is been done on their behalf.

That's it so the work is completely done and it is is very symbolic of what happens with the real gospel and yet least he think they need to produce works to receive some of Christ's righteousness. I find that very interesting, but other than that I really don't have anything to add that when you guys have Artie said you guys get really good responses are early really appreciated your biblical responses.

Also, I got had some passages written down that I can reference but like Paul just displayed them all out and a really cohesive manner so I think you really laid a case down really well for what the gospel is and kind of also kind of brushed on what the gospel isn't so probably no more depth than I would imagine Paul ask you this question. How would you respond to a critic who says that forensic justification is just a fairytale's arm and turned back on them.

If this critic claims to be a believer in the Bible. I would counter that they must believe the Bible to be a fairytale because the Bible claims forensic justification if we define further justification is the idea that the sooner he was drawn by God to faith in Christ and repents is saved and is free from all the guilt and penalty and condemnation of their sins. So let's talk about the Greek noun that's translated into English as justification. Couple of interesting things about. One is that it's from the same family as the Greek word that we get the terms from which we get the terms righteous and righteousness and so the suggested justification has something to do with righteousness.

If I'm justified before God and that has something to do with righteousness but as Paul made clear. Not my own righteousness is the righteousness that comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ. And this relates to what I was talking earlier with regards to the gospel. Recall that Isaiah wrote the one who brings good news publishers piece and Paul in Romans 51 says therefore, since we have been justified by faith we have peace when now we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ is not something that comes later. After obedient because we have been justified. We have peace now through our Lord Jesus Christ to those who been justified have moved from a state of being in rebellion to God being in a state of peace with God's… Teacher talk about forensics as a justification is is nothing more or less than the mere assurance of salvation to say that salvation is dependent on anything more than the exchange of Christ's obedience. Righteousness, for my own filth and sin is to make grace dependent on my own ability to rid myself of all ungodliness and that's to say that the saved person is still not in a state of peace with God and us to rob me of Blessed assurance. There is no other good news, so I would just turn back on. The Bible proclaims forensic justification. I excellent Matthew. How would you answer this charge.

Paul really nailed it. Hee hee about the word for justification from the great casting and I'm guessing as I pronounce it medically scholar but I was at this question thinking about just the Reformation itself and is Michael. You brought up how there's a divide between evangelicals or Protestants Arianna Lemos and Roman Catholics, and it's because of historical event of the Reformation and so like you said when when when Luther was looking at Scripture in action." This kind of video that's a transcript from something she's Paul said is when Luther was reading Scripture and the he is reading Romans and" Habakkuk says the just shall live by faith.

So follow all Luther's trying to wrestle at all this with this. What this really means and there is so much history of the Western church using the Latin texts.

The Latin Vulgate for their theology. So here are she's Paul speaking of this, he says there is a linguistic trick that was going on here to. It was this that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was and is the word from which we get the English were justification the Latin word just of acquiring and it came from the Roman judicial system and determine if the car is made up of the work justice which is justice or righteousness, and of her infinitive for Kari, which means to make so the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere make unrighteous people righteous, but Luther was looking out the Greek word that was in the New Testament, though not the Latin word for word the coyotes the coyotes name which didn't mean to make righteous, but rather to regard as righteous to count as righteous to declare as righteous and this was the moment of awakening for Luther, so I really like the way Darcy spoke and explained that that that the distinction between making someone righteous riches much like confused righteousness is your explain Michael and being declared righteous, and Paul uses this very specifically forensic. This judicial courtroom language to really drive home.

This idea that were not infused with righteousness upon faith. We are declared righteous is it's God declaring that were innocent that were innocent of any sin in it that we are righteous. This is a righteousness comes from Christ.

And second, as if I've deviated to partner question so yeah I think it's very clear that in Romans chapter 3 that Romans chapter 3 in chapter 4 we recorded that my mind Scana been flutter recently because my paperwork is not now. I guess those parts of those vets are gonna mess up your editing but also with the funeral good OKAY I Romans 327 through 31, then what becomes of our boasting: I should go back okay or 321 onward, but now apart from the law righteousness of God has been revealed as attested by the law and the prophets in this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There is no distinction for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace and redemption that is in Christ Jesus, God presented him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in his blood. In order to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus where then is boasting is excluded.

On what principal amount of works know.

But on that of faith. We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law is God the God of Jews only is he not the God of Gentiles to yes, of Gentiles to since there is only one God will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised. That same and wanted to read part of the chapter 4 verse one what then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather has discovered if Abraham is indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

For what does the Scripture say Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, that the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but believes in him but believes in him who justifies the wicked is this is a weird version. Sorry, that's fine.

Who believes in him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works. Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven. Sins are covered. Blessed is the man who sins the Lord will never count against him. So sorry to read that entire passage, but, but I think it's really important for this to because they say that forensic justification is a fairytale.

It says this is his multiple times in that same passage just read through Romans 3 to 4 and says, justified by her faith apart from works of the law.

So for those critics who say that, well, you can't just be justified by faith alone and never says, "faith alone in those specific words except for James, which is a really terrible argument because here it says that were justified by faith apart from the works of the law and I don't think Paul committed any clearer that were declared righteous faith. That's it. So to say that further justification is a fairytale.

You really have to have the kind of interpret the Scripture Passover in such a way that it completely destroys the context it destroys the whole meaning of the of the letter because Paul spends four chapter saying all our work. Students condemn us, so if our works condemn us. If we can't do anything to make us righteous Howery righteous, and he says the solution is trusting in God's Abraham did, who was declared righteous is counted as righteous by faith. So you just if you just read in just pray for understanding.

It's that's really that's really*after the God used to help me understand justification is just so clear when you just read it from the beginning to the end and I love how it's Stoning in the verse one of chapter 5 as Paul mentioned, and he says, cortisone on this up as using the Berean study Bible earlier was weird so I said wicked but doesn't say ungodly sense of the stock is, therefore, since we have been justified by faith we have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

And that's like all central one were declared righteous, be happy Scripture peace with God is not something we gain and lose and gain and lose again. Based on our works as we trust in Christ were righteous or righteous forever. I think somebody came to me in and said that forensic justification was a fairytale I would probably appeal to James chapter 270 things and James says that you know like if if faith were were alone. And yes, it would be a fairytale but the fact is that there is proof of it through the sanctification process on the fact that we have an actual new heart that we do not want to be in sand that we long for this relationship and have a heart for God is is an obvious change in something that you can actually see in somebody sign is evidence that the other thing I would say your County call turning it back.

I was a unit with the real fairytale is.

It is your earned righteousness that is the fairytale in Romans chapter 3 starting in verse nine to read a little bit of this, I have actually gone for some it would flow a little better with Matthew read, but says what then are we choose any better off. No, not at all. We have already charged it all, both Jews and Greeks are understand as it is written, management righteous, no not one. No one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless.

No one does good, not even one's throat is an open grain.

They use their tongues to deceive the venom of asps is under their lips and mouth is full of curses and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood in their paths are ruin and misery in the way of peace they have not known.

There is no fear of God before their eyes. And in verse 19 now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. And so that's that's one thing you as a latter-day St. I thought that the Commandments of God were there to make righteous all along. They were there to condemn you see this pattern in the Scriptures you know if somebody believes that they are righteous. I think that they don't have a very good grasp of what God's law actually entails an example that comes to my mind is the rich young ruler who tries to tell Jesus that he's kept all the commandments is home biases basically sitting there saying I'm righteous and that Jesus says, go and sell all that you have some leave the young man's eyes are opened and she sees the gravity of God's law and he you know he realizes this is something that he loves more and he goes away sorrowing because he's incapable of that kind of sacrifice and he realizes that his righteousness is an illusion. And so that's what I would say somebody said that forensic righteousness is a fairytale you know anything other than that is the fairytale.

There is no other way that we can be righteous. Save that that righteousness is that we are declared righteousness and it is exchanged with Christ. It's interesting when he went about the rich young ruler because I think that that passage is one of many that's just use by so many. Maybe, maybe we can chime in nine hours was a Catholic keep our comments contiguous, but I like to get a short note back from you guys. Maybe because I am. Maybe it is my experience that seems like understanding that I had as a latter-day St. of the rich young ruler is that all we know if that that guy had he wanted to keep all the commandments, but there's just that one thing you can let go up but if he could kept that you know he would've been okay. You know like if if you were willing to give up that one thing that he could've know he could have reached a kingdom so it's it's like you know you gotta come the idea that I had was like it when it comes to obedience. You have to go all the way. You can't stop halfway there and if you keep going and keep pushing through the and that's how you will know receive eternal life are really reading it now.

Like like like you said Michael is part you said it perfectly Coliseum" virtually quickly, so the disciples says after he left searching ruler.

His rebuked Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person entered the God they were exceedingly astonished and said to him, then who can be saved so they probably look to the searching ruler and set man look at all he does he know he kept the law offices of John A. Commandments you know if you getting be saved. You can be on verse 27 says Jesus looked at them and said with man. It is impossible, but not with God all things are possible with God. And I think that that is alluding to what we've been talking about to the gospel to imputed righteousness, because if you're trying to get there with our own efforts. There's always something that God could come to us and say okay you know you This.

This is not what about this.

Why haven't you kept this so with the rich young ruler, he could give up everything he had but if you still trying to become righteous through his works.

There's always something that Jesus could've said well have you given up this have you done this. Have you kept this perfectly real life and yes I think that the temptation I had is A SANE was incorrect in our house. I was trying to see it is like when you're beating. You gotta be completely obedient all the way to the end and that's a receive eternal life versus did you guys an experience or I definitely did another place where I had that same experience. You know that verse in the sermon on the mount where Jesus says in Mr. righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees will not enter the kingdom of heaven and is a latter-day Santa Mike okay cool. I can do that, you know, no problem because I read in the New Testament. Jesus reveals their sin so obviously they're not that great in other not that righteous but if you look at the culture of the times, these guys were viewed as being the most righteous people rounded. This was meant to be a shocking statement and I think equivalent would be. Jesus came during general conference and said to the latter-day Saints. You know, unless you are more righteous than the prophet. You will not enter the kingdom of heaven is basically saying the most righteous of the most righteous person you can think of is not righteous enough.

That's overly surfaced service attended by think I think that that story alone and Scriptures are so important because it because we see a lot teaching to talk. No recorded a lot of scriptures that say what the teaching is and I think this is one case where it's like okay here's where the doctrine of justification of faith versus works hits the floor hits Street. Now here's an example someone who's trying to be justified by the law and it didn't work out for. I remember the moment when the passage that Michael reference from the sermon on the mount about an almost unless your righteousness exceeds that of the strata in the 30s and the moment when the conflict form is when I was I was in seminary. While there some errors in the Bible seminary and New Testament course and was kind asked to comment on on that passage.

I remember when it kinda kinda hit me that with Ken was being displayed. There is that sort of the same messages is what Paul says about the law. Romans right that he never would've known sin without the law.

It kind. It's kind like Jesus highlighting like the impossible mess of justifying yourself by right because is as much as the scribes and the Pharisees tried to clearly work perfect either right and they had met heart towards Jesus. At times, and so as righteous as they were as as as as fastidious as they were trying to keep the law they were not in some ways, righteous people, and so dependent kinda hit me there really that there's not this one times latter-day Saints will try to pick Jesus against Paul) and when you understand what Jesus was preaching, especially when you look at how he lived his life and good work in the preaching mission did among the singers and those who were the outcasts of the society that he was part of, you realize that it's not a different gospel them what what Paul was preaching hot. It can be viewed as such and management as a latter-day say I give you the such because I was taught to use of such but it's not a different gospel pitch this question to you first. Matthew do you believe that Protestant Christianity is a safer than Mormonism. Why or why not just quick question to be skip number three orderly change number three we skip number three by bad Matthew. How do you feel about death that repentance is now compared to as a latter-day St.

So as I was reading your questions. I was thinking this this might be where we differ slightly on this question because my views of salvation are different from what out maybe with a lot of other Christians believe market we rephrase it. The criticism that I had as a latter-day St. in my mind of deathbed repentance was, you can just keep this get out of jail free card in your back pocket. You notice as well. If I believe Jesus at the last second split that card and I get a free pass to heaven in ocelots, one thing that didn't make sense to me and it seemed cheap. It seemed like easy believers in my cheap grace. You know, this idea that all will and you know you if you can be an atheist or a life you can syndicate whatever you want and then last second spot that card and in your free but am what we see." We understand Scripture is the reformed view of Scripture. It's this idea that that salvation doesn't begin when you believe it doesn't even begin at the cross. It begins in eternity past and it's where God he chose his people to the chosen elect people to save them to glorify himself.

So even before the world was created. They were chosen to be in Christ. And there's different people different interpretations of Ephesians 1 what it means to be enough for foreknown in and predestined from the foundation of the world to be in Christ. So I take the obviously Calvinist view of that so I don't think that you can it's easier way into the kingdom last second.

You know, in every case, if that makes sense.

I think that whoever will be saved. What has been chosen by God and the faith that they have in Christ is a gift from God when he just really quick check really quick, like I always think of passages beforehand and end up not being the ones that I need to have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The gas so in second Timothy chapter 2 of Paul's writing to Timothy eyes giving him advice is flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace verse 24 and the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach patiently enduring evil correcting his opponents with gentleness God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will so I think that even faith in Christ is a gift. Repentance is a gift so II don't think that you can.

I don't think you can willfully wait to last second and pull out a lot of tricks. Okay long to get into heaven, so I but I but I do acknowledge that there are people that have steered that there are people that can be converted on death of the most famous example is he from across he asked Christ to remember him when he enters the kingdom of heaven and Jesus promised him that he would be with him in paradise and so there's no indication to show that this was a fake repentance or fake faith that he was just trying to cross tees and thought the eyes and say okay well I'm dying now so you know please just help me out and outright trying to squeeze going to heaven. I think he had it true saving faith in Christ and I think there are many people that that's the case may be. Maybe God uses people's last dying moments as a means to bring all the things they've learned and known throughout their life and does not bring them to repentance and faith so I don't see it as a cheap and easy way out because I don't think you can you can use deathbed dependence is a cheap and easy way out.

It just doesn't happen.

I know you can add to the number of people that God will save so if whoever will be saved will be saved in God's time in LA or younger when you're older brother you're middle-aged or whatever God has God has a plan for everybody. So I don't think I'll think this cheap easy deathbed repentance thing is a real thing. And it's not as none of it doesn't bother me.

You know like people say well you commit atrocities. What fill 'er up repented right before his death, and became nine and he was saved and he got a free ride to heaven and I was and is not wrong what the thing is is that we are all deserving of punishment for sins against God. None of us as righteous as we read in Romans three so God grants us faith or pension repentance. And we praise God and thank him for that because none of us deserves it. Know whether whether you committed gross heinous terrible sins or "on somewhat minor sins, but were all guilty. God are all in need of his grace. This RFI got really rambled on that one. So hope you can find something useful in her identity and assembly grammar.

You know that's a really good try to tie in all right home. How do you feel about deathbed repentance set this up with kind of a summary of what some of the teacher never sees as part as a member of the LDS church and then pivoted to talking some of my own personal experience around us, so during my time in the LDS church and gospel doctrine. Typically, I often heard Topamax them quote resurrection and salvation in the kingdom of glory is the gift of God to all except the sons of perdition, but exultation must be earned and to bring home that you know I'm not just making that up right or not is making a maxim that I heard.

I this was actually the teaching of the elders church. So, Thomas S. Monson when he was in the first presidency before he was a prophet and president of the LDS church stated is the celestial glory which we seek. It is the present is in the presence of God, we desire to dwell is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned and the gospel principles manual which is used to instruct new adult members of the LDS church states that free will was necessary.

Quote in order to prove ourselves worthy of exultation and and so the question that many conscientious latter-day Saints are left with is how to improve yourself one by freely choosing to rid yourself of all ungodliness is the book Mormon teachers who has possibly ever in the history of the world done that and so where does this leave latter-day Saints and leaves many latter-day Saints in fear that they haven't done enough. There's no peace with God and the message that the LDS church is church teaches about exultation and is as I was.

So I began attending Bible seminary in 2011 and that year. My mom had a fall and went to the hospital and then to a rehab facility and she never again about besides him a very brief period where we had her home with home health sheet from from 2011 on until her death in 2015 she was. She was either in the rehab facility or in a nursing home and when she was first in the rehab facility.

My my father-in-law had given me years ago a book by Maxine Kato called. He chose the nails and my mom was an avid reader but when I would go to visit her. She would ask to her and so I spent several recent visits reading to her chapter time from mashed potatoes. He chose the nails and my mom was a very staunch unbelieving latter-day St. She all of her life.

Genealogical family history research for both our family and others to help them prepare their family names to take to the temple and then perform the vicarious ordinances and referred to earlier, Michael and as she was getting nearer to death so she had congestive heart failure and the cartilage of her news was so degenerated that she she struggled to walk and to be able to continue to live and be healthy with just heart failure. You have to be up and active in walking, so she was really struggling to do that and that she gave her all and it was it was very tough to watch her deteriorate and that experience taught me that when a person knows that they are near death. They think about the question in my writing to face my mentor and my mom and I got have long conversations about what the gospel is contrasted with what LDS teachings are and my mom shared the on many occasions that she was afraid that she had not done enough to merit the celestial kingdom which opened the door for us to have conversations about the true gospel that is good news before she died. She told me that she believed in Jesus and relied on him holding for salvation, and the day that she died I went to visit her that afternoon, she was in the hospital and I went with my son and my father we were there and she asked me to read to or from one of her favorite books since the great brain. I don't know if you ever read any of those books that there there kind of comical books written by latter-day St. I read that book and ends top with a little bit and then as I was leaving she she stopped and thanked me and I I like to think that that. Thank you that she did me that day was for more than reading to her from her favorite book and she died later that night, but some what I think about deathbed repentance is is is basically that I think it's time when a person's heart can be softened. The person's heart can be times two to the Lord by the drawing of the Lord. So when I when I hear or see Latter Day Saints mocked the idea deathbed repentance. I often wonder if that person has ever been in a situation to be with someone who is near death or counsel someone was near death if they had they would know that many many many instances, it's an opportunity for that person to consider their standing before God. So I don't have a problem with that, but repentance is all yeah you decided publicly to what I wanted to say to all because he was a Latter Day Saints. I remember taking this flippant approach to people who are trying to repent on their deathbed.

You know I'm just like oh you know the you know he said you this free get out of jail card, select all, you just spent your life treating grace like it is a license to sin. You know just like to party it up as much as they want to and then we hundred deathbed like just kidding, I'm a Christian, but I don't I don't think you know at this point I don't think the people that are on their deathbed Annette flippant about things. I think that they'd taken a lot more seriously than I thought they did as a Latter Day Saints and your story really proves that not if there was like a cynicism Mormon.

I kinda thought it was cheap to repent on your deathbed, looking back at LDS doctrine and I just see a lot of problems with it not working because in Mormonism and Zina lead into the next question asked you guys to Mormonism is a another chance after you die you notice the spirit prison where you have the gospel preached to you, and you can accept the gospel and you can still you still go to heaven and heal it if that's the case that how is death really any different from any other crisis that happens during life. You know how is it any different from losing a child and that you know that bringing you to your knees or sickness or poverty or any number of things that happen. If there's a second chance after this life and death is just another is just another thing that happens that is just a crisis that we go through on our way to progression so it doesn't really mean anything. Doesn't make any sense for deathbed repentance to be found upon so much in the LDS church. I really don't understand why they do givenness the scope of their beliefs are just the end of this week's discussion next week will be touching on some really good topics as well related to salvation and a cover question from teacher to heal one of our listeners. He asked us to tell you about the freedom that we have in Christ. So we have a good discussion on Christian liberty will also cover how justice and condemnation, and salvation all play into our current views compared with how we view those topics as Mormons and finally will touch on which passages of biblical scripture helped us most in transitioning to a correct understanding of the gospel. See you next week. Fireflies. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the out-of-print's podcast. We like to hear from you.

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