Identity: Mormon or In Christ?, Pt. 1

Things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening.

However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this mess.

Brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's finger that is angry that is angry.

That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan and my question most of us ask at some point in our lives. Identity is one of the most ubiquitous and controversial terms in modern life.

The American psychological Association defines identity as an individual sense of self defined by a set of physical, psychological and interpersonal characteristics that is not wholly shared with any other person and be a range of affiliations, e.g., ethnicity, and social roles identity involves a sense of continuity or the feeling that one is the same person today that one was yesterday or last year despite physical or other changes. Such a sense is derived from one's body sensations one's body image and the feeling that one's memories, goals, values, expectations and beliefs belong to the self that definition touches on three aspects of identity, namely that it is personal, familial and social when seeking to define identity were dealing with a bit of a nebulous phenomenon.

The sense of self, which is the APA definition notes differs for each person. Nevertheless, the sense of self is something that is derived from our own understandings of our personal experiences or aspirations are ideals, our hopes and our beliefs in a blog piece titled the danger of tribe mentality over empathy more in the creator of the website modern-day Aum mindfulness and mental health for real people, shares her thoughts on an article she read and mindful magazine quote about how humans are biased towards claims that conform to existing beliefs or points of view," she writes. The article calls this cognitive tribalism when being a part of the community becomes part of our identity gives us purpose belonging sense of being within something bigger than we are, what our group believes we believe and other groups or schools of thought that our group dislikes.

We dislike this makes a lot of sense and I see it every day. I truly believe that on the deepest level we all want to belong being different and I is uncomfortable in a much older time it would've probably led to exile or being ostracized as part of our nature to feel comfortable feel safe. As one of the group for Mormons who lose belief in the truth claims of the LDS church questions related to identity abound in my still Mormon. If so in what sense do I have a new identity.

What is that in the next three episodes. I am the other sons of light tackle epic topic we discussed how one's identity is affected by one's faith journey. This week will be talking about questions related to when we first recalled having a sense of self and as a child whether I religionist as Latter Day Saints played a role in developing the sense of self and then finally, what influence the LDS church had on our sense of self as we were coming of age in our formative and teenage years.

We hope you enjoy these episodes. Thanks fireflies so Newman's first question kind asks us to look back into our our own pasts right to to get a sense for when we first member having a sense of self and again a sense of self is defined as a way a person thinks about and views his or her traits, beliefs and purpose within the world.

So in a nutshell, the strong sense of self defined by knowing your own goals, values and ideals, so Michael won't want you tell me what first member having a sense of self come about that. This is actually a really tough question for me. I don't usually think this deeply so I would say that it was probably as a young teenager.

Before I started to have a sense of self because I was just a kid you know I was just kinda going with the flow. I didn't feel like I had any sort of goal or impact in the world and you just give account was about 13, 15, and is my for my three friends at church and together we made up the odd clods so just a bunch of bunch of Americans that hung out together. So I just kinda like the comic relief and regrouping. I guess just constantly wanting – to wrestle. Like if the youth activities and staff so I think I started to just kinda build an image of myself is like okay on Mike you know the guy with a sense of humor that wants to know rough people about what time when you mean exactly like my goals and in that kind of thing though because my goals weren't wasting. They were very shortsighted at that point, like my only goal at the at that time was just to have fun and meet girls in that kind of thing having those things develop over time. Another change is our as to our identity is just part of the topic today so I think I think you yes so yes, I started to kinda realize I had some some things I was good at and some things I was really bad at and I think I define myself a lot based on those things. So I knew, for instance, you know, I was always really good at writing from a young age. In fact, in high school and just start. I have a hobby of writing fictional stories and never went anywhere but there was one instance where I wrote.

I started writing a short story and it was in first person, and was about being locked in the basement and I just described in such vivid detail on Mike.

All I could hear was the drip of water and in counting the water is what kept me sane landed up calling my parents in to the school and asking them questions because they thought that it was real and it wasn't. I was just I was just, you know, trying to be descriptive and in trying to ride and they almost got in trouble for so I thought I was really good at writing. I was horrible at talking to people you know just super shy just think that I was very important at all because I didn't have the confidence that other people around me had so I think just kinda seen my shortcomings in and really identifying myself based on those things is, is when I started to have a sense of self that looks about writing their residence as well talk about that a little bit first member having a sense of self is probably enough early mentor school age. Maybe when I was a little kid I was, like when Michael's explaining I just can't have fun I like playing video games and hang out my friends like you know is I started growing older, I started to really like art really love to draw a lot so like when I grew up in a house out is like all the other childhood fantasy of wanting to be a superhero, not stuffing larger comics and superheroes not chemist of all the time. Superman and Batman and Spider-Man on so I was like a this is kind of fun and like him okay at it and allow for a five-year-old or whatever, seven-year-old is again no maybe I should do. This is like a career. 7000 like what really motivated me to just like really just really go crazy if I drawing like I just spent hours and hours every day, drawing my parents bought me this really awesome art table that I would drawn and I just drool out something this, when I first started develop in all my sense of like who I was and what I was good at like something that I could shoot for you. Nine. My in my future career, sure when that changed when I decided maybe I got old enough, and I realized my art was really that good at some point that changed and I can without other ideas. I'll set a really good friend in school that his mom was just like a fantastic painter should paint with watercolors but mostly oils.

She cheated portraits and she just did the most incredible artwork, but they were always struggling to pay the bills and stuff and so I think I can feel bad about that. Maybe I don't. Maybe a subconscious or something.

I thought to myself as I command you know they go through a hardship so much I want to go through that.

So I guess like you said overtime. I guess your values and your ideas about the shift and change over time and I guess maybe my desire for conveniences or you know for certain income or whatever. Maybe that shifted my my goals on an layout that's cavalier hoping for this good that she brought up a memory. To my mind is a member displaying times and video games when I was when I was younger I would go spend the summer with my cousin and we play like fighting games like Street fighter and all the staff and my dad was a computer programmer, so you know me and my cousin were talking when they were like payments going up and make a fighting game to be about.

You know all the mascots from the fast food restaurants since like to get all the permissions so like I called Jack-in-the-Box and Mike is Jack there like yeah just to just accept that on hold for light 45 minutes and were just like honestly believing that like Jack is to get on Skype so how long did you wait for the news to the news to us.

I don't think they have the heart to do.

You know, I would like to just get this on hold until we gave up was like well I guess I'll call later come back and societies in the box. No, they never came back to kill Jack and I have some thoughts on how know our values and our sense of self. Early on in our lives kind of stuck. It's interesting so that's number on with you, like my first sense of self Kimberly on an elementary school I had a couple of different speech impediments. You may notice times in the podcast that I thought starter some words in there and another thing that I dealt with when I was younger was raw criticism, which is having trouble saying you are. So I talked like number five when I was in kindergarten through second grade and I used to go to speech therapy during school to help me with that and it is one story in particular that my family thinks living accident. I don't really think it's very funny, but I was at by great aunt's house. She was about Utah from New York. My grandmother sister my pants mother and she would she must go over and give us cookies and Oreos and chocolate chip cookies and setting talk with her and my my great uncle now.

They had this German Shepherd dog. It was just an amazing dog. We would pet the dog and submit cookies and they would sit and smoking is another world.

Utah because they were very much Brooklyn New Yorkers and there was no visit went to my dad's family that I normally have over there one time and she should have given us some pretzel, some of the stick pretzels you know and she wanted us to break them up and make our initials out of them and in my name is Paul Rich remember that I pretzels to set up PW and even with the with the letters I was struggling, not just the pronunciation but the letters and understand the defense.

So my family thinks it's hilarious but I don't. But as a result, in elementary school I got bullied a lot because my speech impediments and that was one of the things that first gave me a sense of self. It was a negative sense of self. But this one of the first times I remember aware that I was a separate person from other people and had differences in things and so there was that the adult would also not align with you.

I discovered out the loan drawing around that time and a lot of blood. The reflections contest elementary school which was for our writing and I member during a drawing of the Challenger disaster remembered watching that live what is in second grade and how how much it impacted my my second grade teacher because the teacher on board the shuttle and so that spurred me to to love drawing and I did that for many years after that and Michael like you said in a later on in high school I got into your creative writing and poetry and short stories, and found the love for that little bit different than some of my friends at the time because I played basketball and was captain of the basketball team and no fighting wasn't really something that "jocks did so in a different category thereto as well playing off of that that early life sense of self as a child. What role did religion play in your sense of self any think what's interesting because I do have vivid memories of sitting at my parents at LDS church services. In sacrament meeting and also going to primary like I love my parents and non-I'm not trying to speak ill them whatsoever. I really appreciate you know what they done for me. But you know we went we were really exactly where we were Sunday Mormons essentially none we would go to church and then afterwards you know I think I mentioned before, where we would shop on Sundays and stuff and Alki confuse me as a kid because her talk about announcements to shop on Sundays and asked my parents and I would really get a straight answer. I also asked why my parents were married in the temple, things like that so so is interesting because you know the small cage are still trying to like you said you're still trying to figure out who you are, try to figure out the world ice still Become a simple mindset where I liked what I liked.

Like comic books and video games and stuff.

I tried not to worry about too much stuff, but still you kinda start to ask yourself this, deeper questions and no why do you do certain things are why do we do it this way you question authority, a lot more. I think at least I did as a little kid and so you have to complete a part of our lives, but I would always wondered why we did it because you know we generally integrate what we learn to church very well and the rest of our lives like was like my pants are bad parents all your great buddy and also my parents know they were alcoholics, but they drink occasionally and they drink coffee pretty regularly, so I think that kind of that seen both sides were my friends whose families are really hard-core in their really devoted to the LDS faith and then my parents and I you know, we went to church and him sink like a social thing so I do not. It was really hard for me to figure it all out. My head figure out why we went to church and I didn't like going to church for that reason because like what was a matter in all like not really doing anything the church says you're supposed to do so. So's is a hard thing for me to come to figure out but in some sense you know I like the community and I like the social aspects of it meeting other people and going to church functions and things like that sometimes you know where they have food and stuff that out parties or things like that so it kind of a complaint that role when I was a kid, but in terms of like the actual religious aspects of the religion that wasn't that big of a role in my childhood and the fact that you were Sunday Mormons as soon affect the way you accept my member number one talking other kids and we would talk about getting married in the temple. I was so important because you know families can be together forever all at stuff, and just other kids being so excited to say what my parents right in this temple.

My parents may not temple night ask me and I would say well my parents remained in the temple.

They settle in on and I was confused because I was little and I don't really understand.

You know it's hard understand adult dynamics when you're not young so I don't quite understand like I felt a little bit ostracized. In that sense and then kind of. As I grew older, and my teenage years I kind of started going more to church, especially before and after 12 when you see the priesthood, I started getting really active in going weekly and you know think I was like, deacons, president of some point a camera think I might've been and teachers quorum. And then after teacher Squire McKenna just started stop going. That's kind on my parents were going through divorce notes, rough and night, got to the point again right and really see the point of going to church because I was really, truly believe her anyway so can have that economic dips no hills and valleys, I guess in terms of activity and but I never really knows like I was really sure if I really believe in God. Up to that point. Anyway, like I was going for other reasons. I completely agree with what he just said about going for other reasons because that pretty much sums up my entire childhood right there churches. It was three hours long back than as a kid that is not something that you want to spend your Sunday doing so I can interview Sunday as that day where we have to go to church your great you know and then have to get dressed up and I have to put on a tie, and it always felt like he was choking me so I always just felt really uncomfortable at church and I think the way that I have the unit was just that you know there's all these rules and none of them affected me positively. So Sundays you know I wasn't allowed to even go in the backyard. The family was very strict about what we can do on the Sabbath is an know that meant that there were just certain movies that we were allowed to watch and the few activities that were approved by them and so Sundays just it was just a drag as a kid I I hated Sunday. It's like yeah I know it's great because I don't have to go to school but I do most rather go to school or have to do my normal weekly staff then have to deal Sunday because I just ate is bored all the time and it was those really rough for me. That didn't start to change until you and I was about 14 or 15 years old and I think the youth programs that they have of the church are fantastic and you know I start to make a lot of friends of the church and it was very different from that school because it's cool I don't think I ever talk to anybody much the entire time all the way through high school, you know, just it. I just have a very small group of friends and that was it. But at church. You know I had lots of friends and so I was able to actually socially interact and integrate and so you I just, I guess I bonded with the other members of the church at that point and I felt like no this is my tribe. These are my people. I'm actually happy here. I can be myself and so that's that's really where things started to take a turning point for me to part of Salt Lake City's little more diverse. I think the many other areas of antiwar. For example, my first grade teacher was an African-American from Detroit, and at the end of the day when last five minutes of class and taking turns being dismissed going in our backpacks from a cubbies she would put on Michael Jackson liked interest in breakdance and but breakdance over the coveted backpacking. It was, but I don't know that Dawkins had that experience my kindergarten teacher was was a Catholic and she was from Central America and she should like in public school and the Christmas story right like I was chosen to play Joseph my class was chosen to play Mary friend of mine lived up the street from man was also a Catholic. I was chosen to play games.

I remember she and his family were a little upset that the part of Joseph. I thought should have been because they were most of the teacher and the family were Catholic but I was a Mormon select one of those experiences where I can remember there being some some disagreement over the fact that I was a different religion than somebody else and first experiences where I was realizing no gym that I belong to, because of family and going up and positively by everybody.

And so I have this, the first member feeling different. Because of my religion. But then when I was in fourth grade we moved from decadent downtown Salt Lake City between Salix and ends in Bountiful in the Fermanagh West Jordan and sometimes ends the friends I made at my new school. One was was not LBS and then the other one was best friends with him. Though his family was obviously didn't consider himself to building us so my two best friends through the rest of elementary school, middle school and then on through high school as well and there were times when I felt something, but I would say is negative judgment from some of my LDS peers because my closest friends were not LBS and I also saw my friend was standing and judged by biomass people like when we got into duty and dating years in high school you he would ask LBS goes out, and sometimes be turned down because he wasn't LBS and released his feelings and make him upset and I got to sit up firsthand to talk to about a first hand because friends come in a situation where I was thinking that maybe wasn't as is helpful to people to have that view of you know when I can have relationships with people outside of the LBS bubble and my commitment an experience that is much growing up in Texas actually yeah I mean there's is one time where you like most young adult like girls didn't pay attention to me at all. But there is this one time where when my coworkers had a friend in she was interested in me. So you know going out like once or twice, and I was actually interested in her and I go back to my apartment you know with all my roommates and the hot wind of what's going on. They basically told me like it was unacceptable for me to date a nonmember and because of the pure pressure.

I stopped going out with her while I experienced some some things like that. Just the fact that Mike etc. 14/15, when I started going inactive from the church. I would, I guess I considered myself an atheist.

At that time so I was really ostracized for my faith was more for my lack of faith because of Hibbing in Utah almost my friends were well I mean most the people that I had gone on dates with in terms of school dances and things like that. They were LDS and so those canards because it's it's weird to think the it was weird to me at the time to think alike that I was okay enough to go to dance with at school but enough. I wanted to date and I asked him out for a second date. I know that they wouldn't anyone ask try to ask them out for second day most of the time because I just knew that I just inherently knew that LDS girl only really want to seriously date LDS guys about us, young so wasn't really that big a deal to me. Anyway, I guess at the time but yet was. It was kinda rough in that just this idea. Like okay well should you date someone for who they are, rather than you know what church they're affiliated with us, how I felt at the time is I didn't feel like I was a terrible person or anything. As I grew older and I became active in the church understood okay there really place emphasis on temple marriage and raising children. The church and I can understand why they would want to date me because if I remain inactive because you cannot Psalms a similar value system so you know is can adjust my caps is partially just my immature understanding of relationships and things like that and selfishness that the conduct that that bothered me, but yeah so that's that's all I really don't with you as it were, heard me talk about this but I'm being a young men's program in them basically saying like oh you know any two people can work out if they get married, you know, as long as they have these similar values and kinda made it sound like nothing really mattered. Personality didn't matter. It was just you know the had the same values. Did you ever hear anything like that in the church member hearing anything like that going up but listening to others. Silicon stories podcast talk about their marriages and also talking with Angela in conversations that she had with other women during the years that we were a married couple with the church should definitely conduct from from when she talked to surprise her.

And I've heard people on stories podcast talk about as well that there was there was that like as long as both of us can pull you right personality and whether or not compatible and another wasted really matter work out and and unfortunately it seemed that be a bad thing for marriages.

At times, so you can remember something Hank something about that on a Phyllis Oaks with the guys name was Holly's homeland to Maryland yeah I got them an office him but I do remember people passing on the story that you know I was at a youth meeting at BYU or something in there saying I can't find a spouse can help me out and he says what do you have a couple recommend and then says yeah and then he points to another girl in the crowd giving up. Recommend yeah all right well then you're perfect for each other and I heard sired some story like that, but I never went back to go to go check to see if thousand legitimate talk that they gave but yeah when I heard that even when I was LDS I like okay whether he said that are not. I don't think that's super great advice and maybe this is because they know I sightseeing you know my parents know their divorces, Ruffin some level of compatibility in terms of personality is important not just simply what you believe in the next question is similar to the previous one, but it's a little different as well supported by the social and cultural.

So how did the LDS church specifically like. But the truth proper, not necessarily the culture but the truth proper influence your sense of self.

Mike, what would you say the first thing that I think I was in a lot of ways it was really positive. I really do well with strict structure like what I had on my mission and just the rules in general in the church. I just tend to be the kind of person that that operates really well when there's a lot of strict rules so you I think it was a positive thing for him to be going to the church and just have so many strict things that I couldn't do. You know, and I was really proud of it. Do like no I don't watch rated R movies.

I didn't drink caffeine went to church every Sunday. Read the Scriptures and prayed sometimes so I think in one aspect is the structure helped me with my life but you had a lot of just an argument that the church proper and in the church itself wasn't something I felt really committed to until I was actually on my mission so up until that time it was all about the culture for me and it was just it was like a drug. I mean I would be hanging out with all my friends and having these fun activities and no doing great snacks and and firesides and I just like everything about it. In fact it I'm still like man I would mind reliving my childhood in the church. That's how much I enjoyed it. I went on my mission and I still kind of had that mindset and I'm telling you the result. There is a lot of pressure for me to go on my mission because my family my family line goes all the way back to the beginning of the church in an open going on missions for generations is like 1/7 generation latter-day St.

So that was just something that was expected of me to do anything. I really questioned it too much, but I went on my mission. I was still kind of in a culture mindset. I don't think I'm really knew the doctrine really well.

In fact, my cousin was in the car with 180 from the book of Mormon sitting.

That is like you know what's so special about this book alike on the notes the book of Scripture by profits on the American continent and we have living prophets today is like what's so special about that, Mike. I don't you know I just I just didn't have in mind for that kind of thing back then. All he cared about was just having a good time being around my friends and that was about it wasn't until I want my mission met and met Eddie Knox and started debating evangelicals and they started to attack the church that I started wanting to defend it, and I started feeling like I was connected to the church. Somehow I think part of it was just the first time I started to really feel doubt about whether the church was true. I just felt like really lost. You know my whole family structure just fell kinda fake. At that point. Desolate work but I just can think about my whole family. Unlike this can't be right because you know my mom and dad are really intelligent people and I answer specially my dad and my dad was my hero. As like there's no way that you know that he would fall for this. If it wasn't true like it has to be true because he's a member of the church.

There's there's no question if it's not true, then you know maybe he doesn't deserve to be respected by me. Maybe I'm just wrong about everything in life and if the church was false. I had to be wrong about everything in life because I was the one thing that I was absolutely certain I was that the church wasn't some evil organization what people wanted to paint it out to be when you met and started debating with him to the floor like a personal attack to you.

I don't think it did. At first I did feel this like. In my studio, this hole in my stomach like oh my goodness like I think it was more about just what if I'm wasting my time here and what if I'm wrong, but then as I left and I started thinking about my family and just kinda sympathizing with them and how they would feel if it was discovered that the church was false. I think my bond with my family kinda tied in with their bond to the church and so then it kinda started to become important for me to learn how to defendant and it's kind of funny because I completely switched my mindset after my mission. Whereas before I been all about the culture and I didn't care about the doctrine I cared a lot about the doctrine but I didn't really like the culture coming off my mission, i.e. you I wasn't of the same place.

I kinda felt like an outcast. A lot of times, especially you know coming out with all my friends from browsing the man they all got married really quickly. I think one of got married like a week after his mission.

I don't know how you pull that off and then you pretty soon they were all married and and I just sat there like it took me a couple years and I'm just like, okay, like this: sure you know in Mormonism like you get married quickly or there something wrong with you and some like what's wrong with me that I can't get married and I also did end up going to school and that's a big culture thing you know you're supposed to go to school like the first few years there even in my marriage. If we talk to another young couple that was always the topic that was being discussed is over you going to school for, and it was just assumed because that's what everybody does.

And unlike well I'm not really doing anything out even I would know what my plans are just really know not doing anything but I just felt I just felt ostracized because of that, and even now in the marriage and having my first kid on my cocaine like apparently we don't have enough children because were just not that popular. You know, maybe if we had more kids. People would want to reach out and talk to us more so I really just you know I have some friends here and there but I was really more like you know the church is full of imperfect people. But the doctrine is perfect. So you know, even though I hate it here. Sometimes I'm going to stay here because you know where else am I gonna go.

No one else has the truth except for so you save on your mission, and after that you were your sense of self as a Mormon" was strengthened. Yeah, I definitely saw myself as a latter-day same on my mission and after my mission. It was inseparable. I think early on in my mission right after talking to and I was kind of like thinking you know, I don't think the church is true and I was trying to read the Bible and is like if it will just if I just find the right passages and tell me it's not true.

I'm ready to go and I was I wasn't that connected to it. At that point but really quickly after that it just really latched on it. It wasn't gonna let go for a long time. So when I got it to an activity in high school. I kind of had a yearning for something more to be more connected to something notes whether it's something metaphysical or just to people like I always wanted to have some kind of deeper connections with people but there's also always at tension.

Also, because as an introvert and I still am, where it's like you know I enjoy being around other people, but sometime, but most the time I just like doing my own thing and sometimes because I just get stressed out too easily so him buddy. I was always kind of searching for deeper friendships or or you know, possibly dating and you know looking forward to marriage and stuff had even started thinking about that in late high school just because Anna's like I said, it's the strangest push and pull relationship work as an introvert, at least as I had. It was like is like I wanted to connect to people but it was difficult because I didn't know how to and it was hard finding people that connect with me so anyways, going back to the LDS church so like having this difficulty of feeling disconnected from everyone and I also had some difficulties with my job. I said some jokes where I I'd kinda gone too far. You know like and it was taken the wrong way and so because of that they got really upset and they complained to the regional manager basically and so I lost my job, I think.

I mean like I felt really bad about it. Even that was just a misunderstanding. You know because everybody everybody I worked with were just, you know we always joke around and just say stuff that we didn't mean it on so I think and I felt like they took her to personally but I did. I did feel really bad about it because at the same time. I know that if it were completely blameless. I wouldn't I wouldn't feel bad about it.

I still feel guilty about it. So is doing at diagnosing my first year college where lost my job, but I kind wanted to leave anyway because I've been I was working at Little Caesars for a long time. There's like three years or something and all through high school and got kinda sick of it like I do some soul-searching at that time. And that's kind when I started researching religion and I've gone over that and have other episodes, but to me is, like, well, you know, I think Christianity makes a lot of sense but it's like Ocala which which kind of Christianity and do not count fell into the trap of like will you have to have authority so you know it's real. It's basically Roman Catholics or latter-day Saints because they're the only ones acclaimed up priesthood authority like I think so then I started going back into the church got really no interested in the church and like I just studied a lot and rent a lot absorb what LDS doctrine and that kind of that kinda gave me that connection that I was kinda looking for this idea that I'm connected to God and to other people and that I have the sense of belonging in the world that I generally have before those cowboy searching for.

I did what I generally do not great in high school on mentors, my grades and it's not because I could do it, you know, it's just that I stink see the point I'm trying so I was kind of a zombie. No, but that the sky give me a real sense of purpose and drive when I was thinking about serving a mission, and I felt like you know if if this is true. This gospel is true in all I've really got to dedicate myself to it. So it wasn't a question of if I should serve a mission.

It was like well if I receive a testimony that I should then I definitely will go on a mission, and it surprised my parents. My parents never push me to go on a mission in all night. My mom is still not active in the church. My dad at the time was an actor for a while for long time and then he kind of was starting to come back as I was coming back so no one really push me to do.

It's when I told Mike been considering serving a mission really kind of shocked them to collect my formative years.

I guess in terms of my being being reactivated in the church had a lot of people that would help me out and answer my questions and I was really excited to start a mission in serving a mission. I felt like is the hardest. How my life is just like the most miserable experience. Most of the time, but, not the end of it just inculcated that that sense of identity that I was a latter-day St. in like this idea that no matter what happens, that's who I am like I'm a child of God. Latter-day St. Longo Church of Jesus Christ. Letter to St. summa priesthood holder like those were like the core foundations of who I was and I'd like you to fit everything else changes. I still have that to the church. I think for me was kind of all-encompassing when I was younger cousins coming home from missions and going to Newport to see them off were welcome them home and Saturday nights during conference season. I would go with my dad to the stake center in Salt Lake City are Staples Road bike Temple Square source text.

I was like a block away from Temple Square and would go and sit and listen to priesthood session I heard teachings like an "interview is a Mormon boy with anything good or not he will reflect good or ill in the church by reason on those types of teachings sunk in formation feel like you know you are Mormon boy. Later on when I was in seminary in middle school and high school was my favorite apostle. Just think about that you like the fact that I had a fever possible, speaks to the extent to which Mormonism was like a major part of my identity does have apostles number Holland was by far my favorite apostle. I really started wanting to be a good speaker. I actually started trying to like pattern. The way that would give talks after him because I just thought he was so so powerful the speaker and so interesting to listen to.

I really liked Elder Holland that she still my favorite of the 12.

I don't want to come across is like oh no, going up Mormon was thinking so there were a lot of positive things about it, but I think that going up Mormon. There's definitely definitely an approach that the LDS church takes to win instructs children that is aimed at developing an identity as a latter-day St. This is part of the instruction given. Part of the purpose of the instruction is given so in primary and Sunday I got a list of songs we would sing like I am a child of God, which, like uniquely Mormon view of the concept of being a child of God. So there's like I lived in heaven knowledge and have a long time ago. It is true with life thing Mormon doctrine, the golden plates song book of Mormon stories Nephi's courage latter-day prophets song called to serve Pioneer children sang as they walked an angel came to Joseph Smith.

I hope they call me on a mission. I want to be a missionary. Now I'm not sure if you were into nothing but like the church of Jesus Christ. Like I belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints know the song all of those are, aimed at instilling in Mormon children a sense of being a latter-day St. Catherine distinctive's of of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints way and I will when I left on my motion. One of my parents. Good friends gave me a children's song book, which I thought was kind of an interesting gift to give to the 19-year-old meeting on a mission Road on the inside of description like encouragement encourages me to remember the truths that I learned from those songs and about songbook went with me only where was it was basically a Linda Jeronimo Scriptures comes with us for the children.

There is some English but that's something I carry with me him and held dear to me is is like this memento of my being Mormon in the MTC.

There was a dress code.

Remember the devotionals that they would have on Tuesday nights and there was this one spanking that they would have asked that I was there. He spoke probably five or six times. Elder Kawai was his name and used devotionals is about serving a mission in Italy and confronting Catholic priests with the true priesthood and maladjustment feel like mad. I'm going out to serve God you know and I'm gonna get this power that they don't have and take over the world kind of mentality that was kind of instilled in you and interesting no sense that as well.

While you were there for sure what time of the name that saw armies of humanism on low song is a really powerful song and like you know they sing that part you know and we will be the Lord's missionaries. But then they changed.

We are the Lord's missionaries than the choir director was like she started bursting into tears and everybody was getting super emotional. You just feel this like sense of community and connectedness to know that you're all there for the same purpose. You all came from different parts of the world you all believe in the same message and are going out to share the same message in the world is really like.

Even now, looking back on it is really kind of a cool experience to to feel like everybody's in this together. You know like you really do kind of feel like you're going to boot camp in a sense where you are being trained to be a soldier for God and to share the gospel and things like that. Then it was like a really emotional experience.

I confirmed with Alan where we sing that song and but it's just, and it's like I think about that a McMahon like if we could use that you know for Christ Church that would that would be so awesome if we could get people feeling that connected you know I think that's one thing. Like you said in terms of children's organelle youth activities and I was Michael I forget where talk about youth activities and youth programs are just really good to get kids involved in the church.

The missionary program in your district really gives you a sense of direction and a sense of purpose in the sense of no sense of brotherhood with all your fellow missionaries really cool thing that I kinda wish I can.

I kinda wonder if there is there Christian organizations like that where they can connect like that no district is really good organization that's that's one really good thing that the Excel app not I agree. I remember just sitting in the MTC center them all as missionaries singing no called to serve. That's another another one of the songs they just sing it and so powerful and it's like you just feel you're part of the Lord's army and nothing can stand in the way of you, just like yeah women were the truth and everybody else is either going to join or they're going to get squashed out of the Senate like that at the time, but you just like this is power. The church that you can't ignore it, making feel like the church was a much bigger deal than it really was like I kind of just felt like oh everybody's thinking about the church you know one way or another, like all the time like vast majority of the planet you know is is really you know worried about us in some sense and everything. Now I look back and I'm like coming in yet obviously it had a big part of my mind for a long time I left the church by me. While this time I think about it you know these days.

I realize that other people don't either. Like people have things going on in life and just just a solution that we had what we were out there in the mission field. Yeah for sure that there, some experience that I have that served as bookends to my mission is one of them was during my mission so I mentioned well back up a little bit. So when I was younger as a family manager to Temple Square at Christmas time because they had all the lights put out in the trees and just as a pitiful thing out of Michael Texas, and if you ever seen that stand out in Utah or not, but know that… All of Temple Square. All the treason and everything with Christmas lights and used to have and I don't know if they do anymore, but things to have him on the lawn outside of the North visitor center, a life-size date and the wisemen would be were out there giant camels sitting on trying to channel and digesting the wax figures were plastic.

I'm not sure what they were but lit up in a certain way. That was just beautiful in the North visitor center was like the backdrop of the Christus statue. No cattle overlooking the nativity from the window of the North visitor center was just a beautiful setting. I go with my grandma on her around in the wheelchair and look at the lights and that was just that was an experience that always made me feel more Christian Mormon I'm talking about my sense of self right because of this it was a time when you were celebrating the center and she was the focus and there was just as beautiful setting of lights right and it was all about Jesus and when I went on my mission. The first conference after I was out on my mission to talk just after Gordon B. Hinckley in Spokane basically doing what a lot of the apostles willbe Dr. after the eldest profit the signal were thankful for profits voicing my kind of thing, and she was talking about some of his remembrances from when he was a child and going to meetings and analytical tabernacle in Idaho where he grew up and see income coming soon since I felt the spirit and power of music raised, you can feel it because of the power the faith of the testimony of the members and that little tabernacle we would have erotic priesthood courses learn to sing was there.

We would sing a Mormon boy notion of that song much anymore. I wish you were the Mormon boy Mormon boy, I am a Mormon boy, I might be envied by a king, for I am a Mormon boy goes on to say that made a great impression upon me. Just think of that for a moment I might be envied by a king came with all the power all pump all the wealth the king would have, but I was beginning to learn to be held as members of the church.

Blessings, priesthood blessings, knowledge, information that the king wouldn't know about and didn't have.

I might be envied by a king, for I am a Mormon boy writing down my mission.

Just thinking on the way. That's what I am going to seem like another instance of where there was this inculcation of distinctives right now you see it with the most recent Gen. conference right and that the proclamation on the restoration know there's there's always this portion of distinctives and when I was LDS I would. The way that I view it now, I would've viewed as know that's that's us us and we have this important message of the gospel is stored in the world but my mission really kind of affected my identity. In one sense it hardened my result of being Mormon in another sense it challenged my identity as Mormon because I met people of different faiths and I had in-depth conversations with people of different faiths and things from different points on things that I thought were set in stone and realized that other people differently than I did and still do me an us versus them mentality. I think where I was really resolved to be Mormon, but I was also really resolved to be a Mormon Christian right and didn't matter to me what anybody else thought or said I will. I was a Christian, but it was important to me also that I was Mormon. Okay that's a wrap on this episode next week were to cover several more questions related to talk about. As we came into adulthood how being Mormon become part of identity. How strongly we we have a sense of self as young adults as Mormon quote" to cover whether or not to try mentality can also affect Christians of other various denominations and were also to cover. Whether making 1/5 transition out of the LDS church led us to experience a disturbance of our sense of self. We hope you join us for that discussion as well. Thanks fireflies. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast.

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