Identity: Mormon or In Christ?, Pt. 2

Beginning with all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without and thus our brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening to our greatness podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry that is angry. That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan method selected by the time you were an adult was part of the identity Mormon, like I've been talking about and you know how strongly did you have a sense of yourself as Mormon as an adult. Yeah, it was his one is preparing for my mission.

Sorry my mission and returning home from a mission where I did feel that that sense of this is who I am. This is my identity I did.

It's interesting that how you describe how you felt like you're in the Mormon anti-Christian. I was trying to think… I feel the same way I do have similar feelings like you seeing the lights at Temple Square in select city and and I just always love Christmas time just that the weather I love snow except driving it and hated and just you know that's the time season where you're reading about Jesus or any from the Gospels. Usually, you know you're not really usually reading from the book of Mormon doctrine: something like that your reading that Matthew Mark Luke and John. But yeah charger for my mission and I was active for several years so all life free from public to page 20 and onward that's kinda how I saw myself I realize I forgot to show that other spasms like the ends, the ending book into my mission so I thought about going to the square scene lies before them in the first Christmas afternoon I came home from my mission went to my great aunts and uncles Methodist church for a Christmas Eve service and that was one of my first experiences with the Methodist Church. They had a female pastor and becoming out of the service and it was a beautiful service and it was a Christmas Eve service.

Of course I felt like I can partake and be a part of that right because I'm alone as a Mormon. I was a Christian to and my coming out stepping outside after the service.

Send know that pastor came out and was saying goodbye to a congregation, shaking hands and my aunt and uncle and my family.

My mom and dad and my siblings were all standing around, just kind of talking and remembering amendment I mentioned before my my great aunt was from good clinicians all spoken since my dad you know something about winter when you can come back to the Christian faith as his family was always coming to Mark giving him a hard time about that member thinking at the time like you know why can't that Christmas Eve service. In a time when we can come together with other Christians was the way I was thinking about things right and not realizing that there were.

I didn't realize there were doctrines that set Latter Day Saints apart in vast ladies from the broad swath of Christianity, but as a Latter Day Saints. I didn't see those as significant and think that's weird. On the one hand, I do see them as significant because they were supposed to be important. Brightness distinctives. Else why would there be a need for restoration, but from for my sense of self. I think I didn't see them as significant, but why should they separate us from people who should share our beliefs and so by the time I was an adult Mormon was definitely entrenched as part of my identity mission gave me this feeling of being both different and special. And yet there was this desire to be accepted by broader Christianity. When I got when I got married I made into a Southern Baptist family and talked about earlier in another episode about how Southern Baptists held their convention in Salt Lake City and here I was living on my mission so I had the sense that the southern Baptist student like us right and so remember the first Easter that Angela and I were together, I wrote an email to my future mother-in-law to make that case, you know, Mr. somebody's coming when both celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. I know there's some doctrinal differences between us, but I think this is a time when we can come together as a family and and celebrate together exactly how I worded it without that was what I was going for right and yes I service this desire to be accepted by Christian non-Christians and is funny but both some time I was I was I was fully in missionary mode when I was at work and stuff like I told everybody at work. You know that I was a Mormon. Every chance I got it give away copies of the book of Mormon to coworkers and then when I when I transferred to a different division within my company in 2006. I remember talking to somebody and mentioning that I was Latter Day Saints. And then they told someone else in the company that I hadn't met yet that that I was Latter Day Saints Mac I came around my cubicle and was like a know we do this Mormon culture study every Wednesday morning if you want to come in a little early will and this is interesting to there's like this group of Mormons doing their thing and that the company was working for.

Remember one time in a business meeting and Internet introductions going around the temple and you know business meeting. Your introduction should be focused on what's important, what would the rollers, but in the company that kind of thing and I remember introducing myself and saying yeah I'm a Mormon, but I only have one wife that I think about that now. And it's so mangy they left without a relay for life.

You have more than one way is really awkward.

It was really awkward because note what does that have to do with what I was doing at work. Nothing is such a part of who I was, that sounds like a just thinking about us are gonna make a joke about a number which is in the been really awkward that Michael what about you okay so by the time I left my mission. I definitely view myself as being Mormon. I really couldn't separate myself from that identity wanted to pretend that I can separate myself from that identity because you I would I would constantly just feel like I didn't belong in the culture is change apart from several years after my act of omission. I might just come affiliated belong for whatever reason, but I did love the doctrine so in a sense, I kind of felt like you know how in the church you call everybody your brother or your sister because you were all children of God in a sense, I felt like I was sort of just their half-brother.

Eventually the board that I was in started to view me as scabbing a really good speaker and being the smart guy and they wanted me to give presentations, and especially after I published my first book, a biblical offense of Mormonism you really want me to take to present and people would ask ask me questions a lot more like in church and things are, soften the blow. I felt a little bit while I had been accepted by the ward and I guess once that happened, you know, I was pretty much content in the Mormon in every single way. And as you know Paul what that led to you was basically me using a slab swath of my time defending the church and I did that online for the most part and you got to see that I'm sorry that you had to deal with as a Latter Day Saints apologist.

One of the better wants to deal with for sure Christian personality and the way you handle yourself with people's not like dealing with some other Scotus yeah I do I do it. It's really interesting for me now to interact with LDS up a just, you know I don't. I do see a difference with kind of the personality. You know that they have as opposed to what I had but I do think that their convictions runs just as deep as mine did.

The difference with me is that I think I just learned to play a part or just to be more polite about it and kind of almost act like I was open to the idea. You know, or that I was open to something else being true.

Like so that I come off as being more fair and unbiased, but deep down inside you know I really believe that even if the whole church fell apart and it was just a few of us laughed. I would be one of those select few that nothing on earth was going to separate me from the church so that's that's how entrenched I was with it and I just spent every waking moment during those years just you know thinking about arguments that people and made and just trying to think about every single angle and how can I come up with something to beat this argument and I remember I was actually listening is really proud of the time but I was debating Rob Bowman, Junior in one of the one of the forums and heated up kind of having to tell me like what Michael just because your creative doesn't mean that what you're defending is true and I'm totally took that is, you know being like oh, like she's basically admitting that I know like he's backing down from the fight because he can't take lots of talk about that since no but I was such a brat.

I mean I just look back at my seven like what the crap Michael like what I think so highly of myself but I don't know but I remember sneaking around woman Junior and he's awesome by the webs got to throw that disclaimer out there right now because this is secret group on Facebook with all the Mormon apologist you know it it's called the anti-Mormonism unveiled but yet basically talk about all the anti-Mormons there and make fun of them and in their arguments is spring which permits for guys like hey guys did you know that there is a biblical prophecy about about Robert Bowman and the like what you talking about, you know, so I pull up the Genesis account where Joseph is blessing his son Ephraim and his former Latter Day Saints. I'm sure you remember this this blessing because you basically take it to me like his branches run over the wall. You know that's he's going across the ocean and that's the Nephi's descendents, but says that the archers have shot at him sorely and hated him.

I said, guys, what's another word for archers all that's good. Yeah there like you are so brilliant.

Michael and I just hated but I'm like yeah see like using anti-Mormon just like Genesis said that he would be still in the grip of the I'm not no way I was kind of hiding out in there for a while but I eventually outed myself from like yeah I guess I'm an anti-Mormon other lightweight what you are like so I've heard you referenced that group before but not by name. Just as the secret of this apologist and so is I was brought into a group like right when I was meeting the church saluted like 2009, 2010 timeframe and I was probably still in and I was I was brought into a group with that name. I don't know if it's the original or if it's another when the somebody started because the one I was interesting to be one person posting a bunch of stuff right all what was by someday because I don't know if you like started his own just made lists or if that was the actual group, but I was invited into backward by him and has been there for a while but different group yeah I never was in the supersecret sorry, but I thought it was part of something. This is this is like the best all over again man so should just let you live that delusion like this, like one time ever in my life that I've been a bit like I was part of the secret exclusive club.

Besides the chest clobbered something but but yeah what was in that group.

To me that's when you know there's this huge secret plot so a lot of us were members of this debate group called Mormons and Callicles at the time and we just didn't like the way that the admins were treating us. We felt like it was being attacked all the time and and people started talking there about taking over the group so you know that will that's heading because you know they can start typing I was an admin in the group already but I kind of laughed because I like you know what you send him a little bit of a faith crisis as like this probably isn't a good place for me to be so peace out. But then I found myself drawn back and I could explain why Mike I want to be back in my group where everybody's constantly attacking the church and all of it was just, you know, morbid curiosity or what, but I going back in the group and one of the other admins added me as an admin again without really telling the owner that he did it and since I wasn't official I kind of had this rebel mindset. Anyway, I'm like oh I'm like this renegade admin now, like how fun and as I start talking about taking over that that group and they started telling me like the owners MIA like nobody seen them in forever and we need to get rid of all the admins and clean house and make it you know so it's more fair for us Latter Day Saints and I totally thought into it is like oh my gosh like I can have them attacking my tribe when I have the power to do something about it and so yeah I went in I went in one day and I kicked out all the other admins which you know it's funny because I'm I own group now evangelicals and Latter Day Saints.

By the way I made that group I was LDS and was totally a knockoff of Mormons and evangelicals to get people to join my group instead of that one set was it was very, better thing to do. So the owner shows up as and for his group back in Michael my gosh she's not MIA like he's not deceased like he's really here. He wants his group back so I gave it back to him and oh my goodness, the LDS people of Mexico group. They were having a heyday over what I did there just like oh my gosh this is the best thing that's ever happened on the Internet you know what I put Mark's influence.

Barksdale's might admin which is crazy but you wind up giving it back in. Kicking out like a lot of Latter Day Saints and that group but I was really surprised as I was expecting them to give me the boot to and they kept me there. We never booted me out of the group and they all just basically forgave me and I was like wow you know I can't. I was expecting that I think is a D same when you're dealing with with Christians can attest them. You try to drive them crazy so that they react like aggressively almost what you can see like oh you're not a Christian you know you're not acting like a Christian but totally just, you know, turn the other cheek and in the excepted man is a man you know I was feeling these guys are my clan right now more than the Latter Day Saints art was such a turning point for me because it just made me really respect Christians and just, you know, I think you gone the other way if they just been really bitter towards me, but they just didn't.

I mean, they just used for gaming so openly, so that was a big change for me for sure for sure how I want to address an elephant that might be in the room if Latter Day Saints is in a letter to senseless thing you know we talked a lot about how his church know this culture has a focus on on Mormon distinctives that set Latter Day Saints apart and there's a sense in which he described this tribe mentality right there. Latter Day Saints were people we were part of that group, we saw ourselves as set apart as special right as part of Lord's army and all of that kind of stuff but I think there's a sense in which tribe mentality can also affect Christians in various denominational affiliation, just so that's fair to say Matthew this case. The thing is is I don't have personally a lot of experience visiting different denominations, myself, just because I spent like almost a year studying everything out before we know decided to go to the church I attend now, cannot I was attending to churches for a while but you know I don't really have a lot a huge spectrum of churches were open to a doctor. People but but talking to people online.

You do see that there is kind of a tribal mentality to an extent and it can be either small know can be. It's it's an entire business as a whole gamut of how it ranges in terms of the travel mentality.

I think in Christianity. We've spoken previously about how there's these there. These core doctrines.

These core values and ideals that all Christianity, all Christians they can rally behind. We have early creeds like the apostles Creed, the Athanasian Creed, the Nicene Creed where all Orthodox Christians not Orthodox in terms of Eastern Orthodox but within the realm of Christian orthodoxy. We all rally behind these creeds.

All the doctors within those creeds, and so there's there is something that ties altogether with the same time I do feel like there's this kind of like slick friendly rivalry between denominations, and I try to keep it friendly and you know not too serious. I think it's okay to debate these types of things and you'll see a lot of Christian debates about baptism no seekers in debates about gifts of the spirit about worshiping all church structure out like all these different aspects of church life and Christian life debate and naturally when you study the Scriptures and you studied out the arguments and you've come to your the conclusion that you feel is biblical you and you want to unite with the denomination that that lines up with how you view Scripture you feel the least. I can understand the feeling of feeling like your home and feeling like this is how you know this is this is the way that were supposed to view Scripture on on these particulars and I feel like this is true and that's why I'm writing up with this denomination. But it also requires a lot of humility to recognize know I don't know for certain if I'm right on all these issues, we really have to humble ourselves. Remember that and remember that what matters is Christ. Yeah, we do see you do see kind of rivalry, some friendly some not so friendly between the denominations of the distinctives and sometimes it can get ugly and I and I really don't like it, especially because I go to a reformed Baptist church. We feel very strongly about what's commonly called to tulip the Calvinism the doctrines of grace. There's different names for it, but this this will tear the so teleological view of Baptists and similar denominations like reform Presbyterians, Dutch reformed, etc. so we feel we feel very passionately about these distinctives are these these this view of Scripture and how God sovereignly decrees all things for his glory and choosing his people to glorify himself in his mercy and his love and demonstrate that the world we feel very passionately about that because we filled Scott's truth and I think whenever you find something to be true and something to be important something that you hold close to your chest, your be passionate about it and when you find someone that disagrees with you. I think it's natural to find that you get into conflict with them to a certain degree plea other. There is, there can be a tribal mentality and and so I am one to try to on the I don't always do it but if I have a brother that's reformed and we know where were criticizing someone's arguments on the other side I tried to think about this and step back and say okay we got a remember were all in Christ there.

There are men who are that I disagree with firmly about certain things in certain ways. They teach to certain things I will mention her name specifically, but their public figures and they they go vehemently against the doctrines of grace and the reformed theology and have real problems with them, but I also recognize that that they don't really believe anything that's downright heretical. You know they they accept the deity of Christ.

They believe in the triune God. They affirm that were saved by grace, not the faithful in Christ alone. So even though we disagree on these things. After recognize that he's my brother in Christ that I need to love him as a fellow brother but so we don't always do that in order for sinful beings even after justified.

We make mistakes and we we can be taken over by pride at times and we also get shortsighted and are still humans, we still think our way is the best way and it's hard sometimes for us to put in our ourselves and other people shoes and understand their situation or their understanding of their walk with the Lord. So it's really long answer out that addresses it, but yeah basically loaned agreed. Yes, Michael, how would you address the elephant in the room will you know I back when I was one of my favorite tactics to use, especially my start getting painted into a corner was to find something to make the Christians argue with each other and it was really effective guy I I could be yeah I member there's one time where I had two people in my in my form to debate, you know, probably for a couple hours and he was back in that secret group and were just lounging around like okay you know who's making the popcorn basically like you nuts like me just one because were making them argue with themselves and extrinsic that in real life to because after that first discussion I had with Eddie Knox. I knew that going back there and talk to them a couple more times I went over one time and was was reformed and in one day. Went over that he had a Greek scholar with him a Christian.

And so he was all happy because he's like Morgan or would you say he straight now and so they started talking and they started telling me about predestination like okay you know. So I grab this whiteboard and I like tended to remark on it and threw the marker down like you will chaotically and I'm like was that predestined and they both answered at the same time, but the answer differently.

One of them said yes and the other said no and so then we looked at each other and they started arguing with each other for a couple of minutes. I mean, they're just going at it and then you know they're like little we really are here you know. And then they stopped you know and like kinda reposition themselves just all that stuff really reinforce the notion that there is a great apostasy. The church is fractured, you know it's not a cohesive unit anymore after coming out of the church and seeing things from my new point of view I get to say that it doesn't look like it's is fractured to me as I thought it it disallows a latter-day St. because you know there are these unifying doctrines and for the most part I feel like you know people on the different sides of the divide. Do you view each other's Christians.

You know it's not a dealbreaker.

So yeah can get heated but at the same time I realize now that you know debate was a lot more of a Christian cultural thing that it was a Mormon cultural thing because I was Mormon. I saw people debating on Michael my gosh, it's you know the contending in anger you know this is the devils, and other servants of the devil, or whatever. Now Mike know this is just a normal thing that the people do and I do think he can get a little but she didn't like that. He said that can be some some tribalism you know it's it's like you have absent some Calvinists in my family.

And like I just got out of the church and and they'd be asking me in all the time like so you become a Calvinist.

Yet you know I'm just like really like give me some time, guys, I just left you know the church is I would just kind of like it would come back like I don't know if you asked God about you know something like that.

So yeah, sometimes I just feel like you know people just trying to drag you into a certain position or something like that.

It's like you know I think in the spot now or I've said in the past that I would never be Protestant that I would never leave the church and things like that and it seems like every time I say I'll never do something, it ends up happening so at this point I just say you know I don't know what the future is going to bring you.

I may become Calvinist. Someday I may become any number of things.

I don't know but I'm I'm pretty accepting of of any any position you as long as somebody is a is indeed a Christian in the orthodoxy. Christian orthodoxy then yeah it doesn't really matter to me with this question because talking about identity and that Beverly goes to talk about personal sense of self and how they feel about themselves.

What they have of their beliefs. There values anything so I know a lot of times is a latter-day St. no I I internalized the way other Christian denominations would interact with latter-day Saints. At times a personal attack because I listen before I wanted to be one to be Mormon and have those distinctives, but I also wanted to be accepted within the broader of Christianity and you see that a lot talking to Mormons online where the question will come up. Why can't you just accept the Christian rages and goes on and on about our Mormons Christians how to define what a Christian is and is not the kind of thing so wanted to throw this question and because sometimes the argument made by Latter Day Saints. All Protestantism so fractured there's 46,000 never know whatever number they're throwing out these days denominations you are allowing them and sense in which they feel like. I think that Dustin distinctives you have some distinctives. Why can't you just accept us as Christian and touched on him when were not aligned on essentials and that's that's where there is alignment between Christian denominations with each other and there is not alignment with Christian denominations, and in Mormonism but I did want to throw this question in there because I think it's fair to say you know type trouble mentality can affect Christians in various denominational affiliations. I remember when I was coming out of Mormonism and into Christian church in the Christian church is affiliated with the American restoration movement and were going to Sunday morning Bible study and the elders in our church was in the class and another of the elders of the church was the Bible study and they knew there was a discussion going on and like it's kind of sense like the church was going through transition and pastors right. The guy had been church for a lot of you think like the universe was retiring and young pastor was taking over right at the time when we were coming in and so there was that transition taking place, but there was also kind of like a cultural shift taking place which which you learn, sometimes happens when there's a change in pastors and the sense that there was a shift taking place away from away from some distinctives towards more evangelical stance because within the Bible study that one Sunday morning, the one Elder was asking the other about some of the distinctives of the restoration like you have a comes from broader Protestantism of of their having been a great apostasy and baptism by immersion as being that the proper method for baptism. Submit a distance is just committing the case that some of those distinctives seem to be taking it back on, where does not believe in no church in there was discussion going on like I kind of felt like an outsider. Listening in, because I was new and I was also fascinated because I was trying to understand what is being talked about memos I went on to study seminary. You know I read books, you know like evangelical is in them in the restoration networks, became clear to me. There were couple books like that and it can clear to me that the late 90s, early 2000's name and there was a focus on kind of a shift towards a more enjoyable stance within some restoration churches and I asked the trust pastor friend of mine about this this morning because I wanted to get his take on it. As he grew up in American restoration churches in and said valiantly when he was a youngster, like there was definitely more focus on on restoration distinctives than there is today and I've been wondering and thinking about this question. If it's not just a product of Mormonism. Can we talk a lot about how the LDS church instills his distinctives and young people, children, and if that wasn't just a product of Mormonism.

The product of of early 20th century approaches to denominationalism in the US and in the newness instead of the rise of modern evangelicalism since the gist of the 1960s. That meant that not more broadly within Christianity from a sociological perspective is kinda shifted and I think that's probably the case.

Like I said I wanted to ask this question and throw it out there so that any Latter Day Saints listening you will feel like saying hey the fact that Latter Day Saints focus on distinctives and we all kind of had this feeling like we were Mormon as a part of our identity. That's nefarious in some way because I don't think it is, but I thought it was fair just throw this question in their have a thought when you're talking about.

Then I lost it again.

I swear getting orgasms are due May 2 say that if you through not have the same load. Grandma yet. Grandma grandma's token is a sepia while yellow Lewis just argument distinctives there is.

There is one quote that I really like Spurgeon for so you can assure that and I clicked out of it lost okay so Charles Spurgeon he is a reformed Baptist pastor and England is funny because he's courted by many Baptists and they don't even know he's Calvinist so when they find that outcome was surprised but anyway the short quote method before, but that's when I really enjoy.

He says I do not ask you whether you are a Wesley and a Baptist or Presbyterian.

My only question is are you born again and I thought it was a good quote. To reiterate, just because I think it summed up a lot of what we've all been saying is that I think I think Christianity is all that's interesting because I think Christianity is a whole really needs a second Reformation in the sense that we need to go back to biblical doctrine because so much of it is straying away from that and at the same time, but at the same time not sacrificing.

Not big, not watering down the gospel are watering down Scripture. If you see what I mean, I love you guys noticed you guys really know CS Lewis more than I do.

I've only read a little bit of some of his works, but he he wrote the book on mere Christianity and I'm a night. I hear what other people say about it.

I've written myself.

But, this idea of saying we need to boil it down to the basics, you know, we need to go back to this this this core of Christianity. That's what we need to focus on and I wondered, and I was thinking about that wondering if that ties into what you are saying all about the sociological shift in terms of how we view each denomination and how we share the gospel because I don't I'm not I would call just for the liar when he said all those people back in the 19th century were fighting over each other over the topic of religion. You and I believe that was certainly the case they called to bring over district for reason.

So I mean we can't we can't just watch pushed out under the rug and say all know Christians have always gotten along with number five. Everything's been great so exactly that best the.

The room right like the three of us on the podcast we talk about how you have questions between us and you do know you and I met you and Michael. I don't agree on everything we found that out is made as we talk we talk each other's as brothers in Christ each other with Grayson and try to have approach towards one another. That's that's humble and going swimming to make the point that now I recognize the earlier in the last century that there was more focus within denominations on distinctives and spending a little bit but that doesn't mean that biblical principle principles you said and essentials so just a nod to the letter. Since the listing that the other way has been some some disagreement, but essentials have always been part of the faith, and not just not just since they were enumerated. The 20th century as part of the fundamentalist before that the essentials were part of the Christian faith. Some things jump in your team because that really brings to my mind is having some differences is a really positive thing. If you ask me because I can see some of the different thought processes and I think they're good for different people and was in the church. It was a one-size-fits-all and if you didn't completely agree with something that it was just a nightmare being in the church so it's great to have that freedom to you know longer denomination that fits fits your beliefs and in your personality even and still being that part of the body of Christ, so as you may different transition experience a disturbance in the full statements are you experienced executor or the experience disturbance in your sense of self, and if so, what was that like so you earlier Paul, you said you were content with that song I'm a child of God, and those one of the things it just gave me my license and identity to growing up is you know I'm I'm a little child of God and all the things that that entailed. You know that when my father told me when I was young.

You know is a little child of God I have the potential to become a god myself. One day I was thought that was really cool. I thought of that.

That brought me closer to God. I'm like wow I'm I was little child, but as time went on, and as I came closer to my face crisis and I think would really probably into it was was studying Grayson and trying to answer the impossible gospel approach, which says you know that if were not perfect, then we are not worthy of grace and so is trying to to being worthy.

I was really watching myself I was saying that I was not that I wasn't perfect. I was even close to it and I was getting closer to it every day like a lot of Latter Day Saints claim that they are because of that unite is also, looking back in is really far and few between. Whenever I would receive revelation from God reflect the spirit was stalking me as I really felt like I was. I was a child of God, but I was estranged child of God is a Gabbay blood. I'm his child. But because I'm not worthy. He doesn't want to have anything to do with me or talk to me for worthy of that distinction. Most of the time and when I started going to the face crisis. You know I started to really question my identity because it was completely wrapped up in the church immunizing of talked about it before, but I would just wake up having panic attacks just not knowing where I was sure you know what what year it was almost just like it and we good thing in the dumps. I'm still warm and may get sucked back into the church so it is just is just unraveling the you know the most in my controller made of something appropriate word to use, but just everything everything that been tied into the church in my mind and I member calling my my pastor year after I left the church.

I have issues trying to piece my identity back together and calling my pastor