What About Original Sin?, Pt. 2 (Articles of Faith Series)

Shines in the darkness the darkness is coming. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening.

However, this contrast from post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this mess. Brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry. That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist Paul Bunyan is covered and what the Bible says about vision will what does it affect us to have on mission well and is the Bible clear on that point. Try to find passage just came to my eyes is the best for if you live according to the flesh will die.

But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. So I there is a sense in which in which I think we can kind of agree with Latter Day Saints with the book of Mormon where it says that like Michael's saying earlier that there's kind of this downward path, you can go down where Satan is slowly dragging you towards him. So, if you keep going into deeper and deeper sin, that it becomes more more difficult to come back out. So I think that is true, you know, as we as we as we commit sin, and as we go deeper into Seneca become more difficult for us to turn away from Essen, but ultimately we can even repentance is a gift of God so there's we can never truly repent of our sins.

Without God's grace, but I think there is. I think there are certain degrees of of sinfulness so we can reach by regressing into our sinful ways, saw not sure if that's kinda what you, the question was trying to ask how how sin affects our free will and I think that's maybe maybe I'm going a different direction. But right masses, will respond will Bible seems to present the idea that the human will is in bondage to sin until God acts to free the person from the bondage and is is next Latter Day Saints. From that idea was so hard to accept. I didn't want to believe that the person was in bondage and that the only way out of bondage was not a choice made by the individual. But choice made by God to draw that person into relationship with his son and thereby save that person and I think that that is the key difference between LDS theology and Christian theology, biblical theology that is tough for Latter Day Saints to accept, but I also think that the Bible is clear on the point that person is dead and their sins and trespasses Michael Amber quoting a passage to struggling through similar concerns on your way out the Facebook messenger conversation several years ago now and some that dead person can't act as you noted in an argument and making about was there as they are about to head so yeah so I think about this particular on the point. Michael absolutely I do and nothing to you like just as we asked, does the sin you know, take away some of our agents seem to agree.

I think that it can even after salvation. And I think that Christians become addicted to things and they can become a hindrance to us in life are just perceiving some of God's blessings that might look at Romans chapter 6 right now, starting in verse 15 says what then shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace, God, for no you not to yield some servants to obey, his servants need our Eagle Bay, whether of sin and death of Romanians under righteousness. But God be think they were the servants of sin have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you done made free from sin and became the servants of righteousness section of the things I really like about this passage level.

Mormonism always somewhere in between being a sinner and being righteous and usually you like to think of yourself as being closer to the righteous side of things, but in verse 18 he says, free from sin, and in verse 20 sins. One of the servants of sin, we were free from righteousness. So really it's a dichotomy there's as if you were righteous or were sinners.

There's no in between between right because that's how people end up in the terrestrial and celestial Rooms when well, not quite so Melissa left God's presence yeah will.

Romans six and basically you know, if I were to summarize it but it basically says is there is no terrestrial kingdom suck passages like the just say that that were sent home that that there is no there is no third way like you said in Romans five is talking about, talks about how through one brought many condemnation upon all and through one righteousness came upon all non-doesn't mean everyone saved it just means that because of Adam's transgression are am saying sorry about the Mormon terminology popping up again so through so just quote it says, but the free gift is not like the trespass.

For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many in the free gift is not like the result of that one man sin for the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification because one of the four if because of one man's trespass death reigned through that one man, so I had in there… That's Adam much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ, so that that again. I think that Romans five just put the nail in the coffin, along with Romans six that there is no different degrees of glory. It's like you're either in Jesus Christ by God's grace or your under condemnation in Adam. The fact is, is that you're either in Christ you're not. There's no there's no is nine between so I think it's kind of off-topic from the question we just asked but a lot of like that passages relevant to what Michael Singh think about the distance. Three analogies that the Alister McGrath touched on about the effects of sin and what they are.

The first entrance. Sin is a hereditary disease passed down from one generation to another and cannot be cured by human agency and the second transcends a power which holds us captive and can't break free on our own third analogy transcends essentially judicial or forensic guilt just passed down from one generation to another poster analogies so I had really have those all those analogies really before today, but it does, thinking about them all in actually like them. Analogies I think a good a good fourth analogy would be that it's kind of like mixing M&Ms with skittles and raisins piece between the last time you I posted a picture earlier that that prove total depravity by having a big bucket and they mixed instigated the brand law is a skittles M&Ms and Reese's pieces on once they mix it all up in the same the same container so that I was Paul I was going to comment on the moon. No modern wheat and tares story is what it looks. Let's talk a little bit of time just dancing on the head of the pen is that worse than pineapple and pizza. It's about the same. I don't know how you're killing me right now. I would rather have pineapple and pizza veteran than that situation. I mean if it was just the M&Ms in the Reese's pieces it probably be okay. But the skittles, I'm a pineapple pizza only us so yeah a little bit afraid that your consider that have held is a ritual that sounds very legalistic to me Matt no father pizza there for Michael's English national pool involved pineapple yeah. While there were many other toppings and if all the toppings that should have been put on the peak somewhere.

I suppose the whole world could not contain the toppings should be put counter question is though because when things that that I kind of seen as an analogy for sin is like a debt you guys think about that. I think that goes to the judicial or forensic concept because Paul uses a lot of very forensic terminology in Romans when he's talking about justification. My justification is a very legal very litigious term is used within that concept of the courtroom where declared righteous or guilty so maybe it would fit in with that. I think this idea that were were were guilty wheat we did that we we have a debt that we can't pay. So because of that were found guilty. It may be, are you saying that should be considered something slightly different was felt like it didn't quite quite fit into those wages in a different thing than just dad that you can't you can't pay often and no matter how much you put into it. It doesn't moves never come close to paying it off then you know through through a marriage you notice somebody with eternal well it's the only thing that gets you out of the hole know some of the various views on how gentlemen works that have been performed by various theologians throughout the centuries.

Being a parent about that. This is one of them tackled the atonement more than what I thought was about the third analogy is that as I thought about Mormon theology relative to an original sin versus Christian theology that seems to really where there's those starkest contrast is that Mormon letter sent my really take issue with the idea of a person killed for Adams act of the fruit for Adams act of disobedience which the second article food tackles have been the constant original guilt right punished for their own sentence, not for Adam's transgression.

So there's this idea that you were guilt is yours alone in Adam's guilt is his alone, and the twain shall meet, but from Romans chapter 5 verse 16. That doesn't seem to be the biblical writer passes the fridge is not like the result of that one man sin for the judgment following one trespass Adams Sam brought condemnation, not just for Adam right brought common vision for all of humanity free gift following contrast, trespasses brought justification not just for Jesus right for what he did in his obedience before you are his followers. So although this this projection of original guilt, theology is it's hard to get away from that in Romans. I wonder how how a latter-day St. would approach that passage in context. What else is an interesting I was just thinking about that second article fade as the wording of it is kind of a contradiction to because why would you be punished for Adam's transgression. If it wasn't us in the first place. It's almost like they're acknowledging in that article of faith that it is punishable since we were not the ones who did you know she's going to be punished, not us. So you're saying that the fact that they view it as a transgression is strictly tied to the fact that transgression is not were not accountable for that transgression. We are part of that. But you know I mean I'm just saying that you'll posted earlier and I agree with him that B since left and say that that was in the sand because they didn't have the knowledge like what they were really doing about was that you Matthew so it is all blurred letters together but it wasn't a sin than why are they saying that you know that we can be. Not that it's punishable you know that saying in the arson article of faith that nobody will be punished for Adam's transgression. They specifically say, but for our own sentence so so equating to sin and that second article of faith punished for Adam's transgression, but for our sins, and I was understood with transgression and my transgression is not as serious as a sin not. Not that it's not still dance but it's not as serious as the sand and the reason why is because on Mormon theology.

They were doing the will of God protect the right because without without having partaking of the fruit they were never enhanced and have come about so contributing to about God's will for them to multiply and replenish. But still had to disobey one of his commandments to do so now. Never understood why that happened in the case, but that does seems to be doing that is on Mormon on Mormon teachings father was understood that that distinction between sin and transgression related to that that there was the sense in which they were they were about God's plan anyway so the dummy punished for bringing about God's plan okay.so so not mentioned because of Mormon's commitment to the concept of free will. This doctrine of original sin was one of the hardest for for me to understand and embrace.

As I was studying through the Bible and Christian theology just find that the case for you as well, and if so why or why not as difficult for me when I was when I was questioning I was kind had 1 foot in the door, Mormonism, and 1 foot in reformed theology. I started watching James white stuff and it's like you can't get more opposite than Mormonism for theology like reformed theology like everything is entirely of Grayson Mormonism is like grace helps most of the works up to you so really it really bothered me the site. Like all the things we talked about before this idea that that many people are going to be condemned before God that there so many people have died without Christ, and that there will be condemned before him in judgment. And so, like it was just really heavy concepts because in an LDS theology. It feels kind of like I could secure it like a like a nice fluffy blanket like as missionaries. I was always try to push myself to try to teach my people that could I Mike I got help people we know, but it wasn't heaven or hell can situation was more like I need to help people be happy because if I don't teach somebody you know they'll be missionaries on the other side after death note and I don't don't get their chance. Eventually, but I tried my hardest to get it to him now while it could still benefit them and on earth, and so on. So then when you take that that kind of security that safety blanket away and you realize that, like we are born condemned and and we have the sinful nature and we need we need to accept Christ and faith, repentance to be saved. It was it was really hard for me to is a really big pill to swallow, but I think the passages we talked about that especially John six when when James white executed John six Luciano exegesis means it just means like drawing out of the text out of the Bible what it saying so when James white was executing our expository John chapter 6, he goes through it and he got to that versus is no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him which Michael quoted earlier by that really bother me.

I got stuck on that text for days or weeks. I was just looking at it in the Mike can't ask can't be saying what that saying in all like we we are free to choose, like like like God would not leave us in the state where where we can't use him, but is by God's grace that that like I couldn't refute it in all the text is just so clear that God has to extend grace to us to trust even come to him and because of the fall we are we are in this state of guilt and an sinfulness. So it was very difficult at first to both understand this idea of original sin and its consequences, and to accept the biblical truth concerning the this was probably the thing that I fought off the longest after becoming a born-again Christian I really had to let go of it to be just despotic kicking and screaming for for so long just holding onto that LDS view as much as they trample the justice of God and they do that by saying you everybody's in the inherited kingdom of everybody gets a second chance in the next life differently just doesn't feel just when you're latter-day St. for her to say that you know God is punishing everybody for something that Adam did and they warning them. We weren't even alive so think about that and just like you know that's that's just wrong you know God. God wouldn't do that really have had my mind blown by reading Romans chapter 5 and I'm not going to go into it a lot because Matthews Artie talks a lot about it here tonight, but it's very clear when you read Romans chapter 5 that there is original sin. And it's really comparing it to you is comparing the first Adam to second subs Adam and Jesus and in the what they did really really works the same way a lot. You know by one man.

We were condemned by one man.

We are saved once this is this is no room to wiggle out of that. You know what I have to accept that there is original sin and you know it's been a bit of a fight for me and I'm glad to be here to accept that is completely biblical.

What are some of the objections that LDS make to the doctrine of original sin and your response to them. One thing that the sky come to my mind is from the book of Mormon, but it's more like chapter 8 it's talking about how little children cannot stand because they are live Christ and part of the way it was explained to me was that they can technically send it just doesn't count on with you guys ever heard that explanation, I think there's a couple different theologies in Mormonism that you can take but that is that is one of them basically you know you just disappears in Christ and some of the things I can bring it to music you know when they turn eight. You know, I guess moments kinda do believe in an original sin just takes hold.

When you turn eight. Apparently so I guess it just kind of a difference. There are born with it and then they believe that it just doesn't take hold from for a while if that makes sense is my French accountability is when a child turns in years old. That's why most modern Mormonism, Salt Lake City, Friday. Children are baptized generally. Where's Mormonism that was not the case.

But if you think about that when you just noted that little children are alive in Christ.

What this suggests is that a person born until the age of accountability is called clinical alive in Christ and then the comes a point where they are no longer alive in Christ so why, why, why, why would that be the case if little child is alive in Christ should die will go to the celestial kingdom because they were alive in Christ had managed accountability. Why was this art. Why is there this arbitrary accountability where suddenly persons no longer alive in Christ accountable for their own sins, and susceptible to whatever effects Mormon theology. The fall has upon them. Just seems odd that if a person under the age of this technically saved Mormon theology. While based on the saved exactly and discipline them trying to make. There is that to Mormon. It doesn't make sense that there would be Original Sin. But it makes far more sense that there would be Original Sin than that we would be alive in Christ and then suddenly die afterwords eight years later and she really, really like using this analogy to cousin that chapter it says that it is like basically heresy to even think that these children need baptism because baptism is for repentance and children do not need repentance and I love just using the whole system is symbolically tainted because of my click this this passage describes my condition perfectly, as he seemed Christian, I am a life in Christ. I do not need anything to save me. You know it is just, waiter, I guess use their own theology to kinda show them where I stand and I guess part of the reason the things they might kinda say to me is at such a disadvantage, and it does you know like really takes away that agency that they hold so dear.

If you can accept the doctrine of original sin, then the answer to that is no Christ you will the father draws draws the father draws us and and it's really just Christ in his mercy, and yeah, the odds are stacked against us with Original Sin, but man that's just nothing compared to the grace of Jesus Christ and what he is able to do for us was I was thinking about all the objections of latter-day Saints have specifically to reformed theology, but I think it applies whether reformed or not, because Arminians Armenian theology would say that they would agree that Original Sin occurs. But then, then, God extends grace to basically all mankind to some extent so whether reformed or not. You know the of the. We believe in the idea of original sin.

It's it's it's an Orthodox Christian belief and so maybe they don't also associate two main objections. One is that like I think we've Artie Discussed it, you know, how can you look a little child and say that it's sinful my piping. I kind of went outside to say was that was that children need the commit transgressions as we talked about earlier, but since I don't have the knowledge or maturity that they're not sin, though transgressions are covered in Christ atonement similar to Adam and Eve's transgression so it's it's not that it was good. It was still breaking God's law but didn't have the knowledge it's kind of covered.

It's kinda like it. It's Christ covered it for them automatically.

That's how I viewed children below the age of accountability so so when you bring up this idea Original Sin that were were were born sinners and I wanted to bring up some passages that talk about that but I wanted that one of the things that Larry sinful says what you think will. Children are sinners sinful and so then instead of trying to use my logic, I just put Scripture so hold on one second please.

Okay so Psalm 51 five in the English standard version says behold I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me elsewhere as I said in Ephesians 2 says at one time we all lived among them fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging his desires and thoughts. Like the rest we were by nature children of wrath, and Psalm 58, three says the wicked are estranged from the womb. The liars go astray from birth so I think we have to admit, if we look at scripture that says that Michael's controversy because I know that there are a lot of questions that will will point to some passages as evidence of some age of accountability, but I don't think there's anything that clearly teaches that, based on Scripture were born with the sinful nature and were kind of warm with this condemnation. So as a result, latter-day Saints will often point to common emotional appeal will say well you think that every baby that dies is good to go to hell because of your Original Sin doctrinally think all these babies are to go to hell. And so I just respond. I don't know you know I don't I don't know what's in the mind of God regarding the salvation of infants you know if you're up to me I would know of course I hope that all all those who die in infancy are elected and there there they receive eternal life. But I really can't see the way so we just have to have a true correct understanding of who God is, that he that whatever God does, it will be it will be right. It will be just and we just have to have faith in him so and I know it's very difficult thing I have friends that lost children in childbirth or the head children that they lost before they came to full term. And so we have to be very careful when we talk about the subject, but we but we have to be very biblical. We just have to see what God is spoken, that grace is free but you cannot force grace is passage in Romans says that the remnant was chosen by grace and not of works. Romans 11 so to the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace and if it is by grace, and it is no longer by works. Otherwise grace would no longer be grace, so grace is not something that that we can demand of God or that we can work or are extracted from God. It's something that God gives willingly and freely so God could freely, willingly give grace to save all infants that's that's up to God and his choice.

So that's that's one really big objection I hear from latter-day Saints, is this idea that we believe in all Christians believe there's always babies in hell. But I have to say III don't assert that I don't know what happens to those guys die in infancy. Germany going to the other one that it's pretty common. I don't I take up all your time okay.

In the second big one is. Maybe it's more related to salvation by grace and not necessarily Original Sin but but I think that this idea that while okay here we are saved by grace, so you just believe and your good and you can sin all you want, you know like Greek. We can kinda just commit whatever sins we like but we see all throughout Scripture. All throughout the Bible that God is constantly reminding his people to come toward him to repent and turn away from sin all throughout the Old Testament we see that Israel we see them turning to false gods and idols and in the New Testament we see them falling all kind of gossip being in all kinds of sinfulness and and so God causally trying to pull us back toward him. There's a few passages on it or read about that. So first Peter two 1111. I urge you, as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul. Psalm 9710 hate you, will you love the Lord preserves the souls of his godly ones. He delivers them from the hand of the wicked first rantings 1534 become sober minded as you ought stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God, I speak this to your shame on James 121 therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness and humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. See Hebrews 313 but encourage one another, day after day as long it is.

As long as it is still called today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and the entire epistle of Hebrews is constantly calling his people to faith in Christ and faithfulness in continuing in that faith.

So we we don't see Original Sin is just thing like okay were sinful God saves us and them were good to go.

You know were kind of just we know we we can kind of do whatever we like Original Sin.

It corrupts everything in a sale at work were completely corrupted by the sinful nature and God as to completely change our natures make us into new creations.

Second contains five talks about is a complete change is radically changes in the some new creation, and we will not desire to do's and after that we shouldn't desired will will want to please God will want to follow Christ. So maybe that legacy. Maybe that's not directly relate Original Sin, but I mean that's just one of the big objections I see to Christian theology pressure probably the number one objection I see from latter-day Saints.

This is the one my connection in on you as well, and that is related to little children with minimal children die and Paul the apostle, in talking about the resurrection said that if Christ is not as dead.

We are of all men most miserable employees making the areas that resurrection cannot happen then Christians are visual because the false hope and I think that there's there's nothing more, nothing more pernicious than giving someone a false hope for them emotionally and spiritually, and as I think about some of the doctrines of Mormonism related to salvation from the bad and little children, I can't help but think that some ways it's it's it's false hope, especially when you know the history of how those doctrines within Mormonism can that Joseph Smith must've felt the death of their children and I can't help but sympathize with them, but to develop doctrines out of emotional situations seems to dangerous window. So one of the things that is of become a Christian and started to really try to dinner talked about before is sure that my theology is grounded in the word of God because of its knowing a thing about God is going to be his revealed word about himself and so I guess what I'm going with all of that is that I don't want to give anyone a false hope right to call out the careful were talking about this because people have painful situations I have painful situations in my life that I think about when I think about this is doctrines like I was saying about James Minard's book the forgotten Trinity well it is about the struggle thought that came with what I mentioned earlier was that I didn't bring myself into existence did not bring itself into existence. So you know I'm very existence to our creator and just like I didn't have my first creation. I also am not responsible for my creation in Christ Jesus told us when a chance on that one cannot see the kingdom of God. Most unless the person is born again and I did not become born again on my own interests is Michael certainly are being born is something that happens to you. It's not the something about on your own and so in addition to the doctrine of Original Sin, just to be careful about also be grounded in the word of God and written notices that touched on that fairly adequately lists this episode, I think you said earlier Michael that when you when you have a biblical understanding Original Sin that really allows us to have a greater understanding and appreciation for the atonement of Christ.

Because if we don't think we're that bad to start off with. Then we really don't need that much help to become good or if we assume were already born good then then you know why. Do we really need a Savior.

And I think it's a point then you really need to be driven home is that if we understand just how cell phone. We are just how helpless we were dead in our trespasses and sins were not were not sick or not, you know hurting were were dead and it's like, and I think that the instance of Jesus with Lazarus is the perfect example to demonstrate that he waited. He could've come earlier and healed.

And while you still alive, but he waited specifically to make sure that he would have died and he came to visit and then yelled asked in white. Why did you come earlier you know, if you came earlier you could've saved them.

And so, to demonstrate God's God's grace and God's power rose Lazarus from the debt from the dead and see came, he commanded him to rise up and to walk out of the tomb, and he did and I think that's Christ was trying to teach us something there. He's trying to say that this physical raising of the dead of Lazarus from the dead is analogical to God's raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life and if we were never spiritually dead in the first place. Then we don't really need to be brought to spiritual life. So I think once we have to understand those two things how they juxtapose each other. Spiritual death and spiritual life and how just completely incapable.

We incapable we are of coming to God in faith without his grace.

So once we understand that then we can truly appreciate him and in no just how gracious God is like that to you later talk about how Lazarus was was dead in Christ brought a bag and just because the snarky person making general like the thought became the landline was all he was mostly dead, you know, and I think is a letter is a letter to St. it's kind of how you view your situation. The grossest said it's like I'm only mostly dead.

But if you just mostly dead and that means the atonement of Christ is only mostly amazing.

You know the worst situation is the worst mankind situation is more amazing. Christ actually is and Mormonism was its doctrine that man is good or man is the same species of God. All that does is it diminishes Christ, and it diminishes his atonement and when he did, because it just really wasn't that spectacular absolutely.

Amen. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook.

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