Brent Timmons on the Importance of Balance, The Story (and Family) Behind America's Oldest Brewery and Why I Chose to Go to Vietnam

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Visit Vanguard.com and discover ownership from shareholders on the hospital Vanguard then go to market Corporation Streeter this is Lee Habib and this is our American stories we tell stories about everything here on the show from the arts to sports and from business to history and everything in between including your story. Send them to our American stories.com there truly some of our favorite stop next story from Brent Timmons today. He shares with us a story entitled balance, take it away Brent Nasser left on his motorcycle to work at a summer job. He just graduated needed to make a quick stop at his high school to drop off his borrowed laptop and calculus calculator. 30 minutes later my wife answers the phone information she was given was brief pastorate had a motorcycle accident in front of the school. They thought it would be okay but the ambulance was common. I may end up taking him to the hospital. That was about the extent of the information both of us quickly thought the worst. Like he had collided with another vehicle.

When either turning into the score coming out the wording thought it would be okay registered in my mind as non-life-threatening injuries. Where would they taken was the first question out of my mouth. Tina called the school right back was told it would be Nanticoke.

We wondered how we would know whether to go to the school or the head directly to the hospital. The state lasted about three minutes.

I wouldn't call it hysteria was more like a laser focus on how we were going to get to where our son was the Nasser called.

He said he was okay describe the situation and told us we just needed to come get him and his bike. We know our son. Well enough of this immediately put us in these. I hooked up the trailer and we headed off it was a relatively minor offense – it was slowly turning into the drive of the school actually caught on camera and he had a small patch of sand on the asphalt.

The rear and slipped out in a heartbeat and ended up on the ground under the bike school staff was fabulous. They rush to his aid immediately and watched over him in the nurses office. As he gathered his wits and the shaking from the adrenaline wore off. He had some scrapes. The bike had some scrapes but overall. His bike would be fine.

This is one of those things. One of those things that remind us how quickly something can happen which could alter the future.

It's one of those things that remind us to appreciate every moment one of those things that changes us.

One of those things we are thankful for because of the lessons learned motorcycle riding is by nature much riskier than riding in a car or truck. If you look at the statistics, it's well you don't even want to know. It's a choice made for the known risk letter boys make that choice without risk.

I write myself, why would we do that would be rather boys that engage in such an activity. It isn't that simple life lived without any risk is well it's not really living at all. Is it we take a risk, which is a college major in the face of uncertainty take a risk and participating in a sport when we may possibly be embarrassed by poor performance took a risk in choosing a life partner would take a risk and changing jobs.

Take a risk of buying a home and committing to pay her mortgage for the next 30 years. Life without any risk is a life of not moving forward is not really life at all.

Of course there are ways to reduce risk and we do those things with a passion.

Some point there is a balancing of the passion to live in the passion to walk in caution and wisdom. And that's really part of the secret of life.

People choose different ways to go about it. Maybe you lean on your faith in God or maybe you lean on your faith in yourself personally. I've been disappointed in my own strength way too many times the risk of making you feel like a trip to into a discussion about God cost share this after we decide whether there is a God or not and who that God is comes what I'd say is one of the most prevalent debates about faith. What does God do and what do I do people fall over the spectrum on this it would take me volumes to try to communicate where I've landed personally and honestly, who really cares what I've concluded how to say this, I want my boys to walk in wisdom to not be averse to taking a risk and to trust God in the midst of doing that. Take a risk, ride safe lives well take a risk, ride safe and live will wisdom and all those words. A special thanks to Monty Montgomery on the production of that piece and to Brent Timmons for a short but profound story with some real real-life implications as a relates to all of us and our lives and we love to hear stories from you about this space. We spend a lot of time talking about risk and risk taking our entrepreneur stories are nothing but risks stories. A lot of people think entrepreneurs love risk. That's not quite right.

What we've learned is that they love to manage risk and that a life without risk is not worth living. And so they manage risk better than most of us, and live within the space of risk and real traumatic risk because it's how they're hardwired, you can't make an entrepreneur any more than he can make someone write a motorcycle is risky business writing motorcycle. I've done it for many years my life gave it up when I had kids, so I made a very different decision about risk than this family did that for instance writing motorcycle then your wrist stories your failure stories because we love both of those. What you learn from failure throughout American stories.com that's our American stories.com Brent Timmons story who listens to us in Connecticut on spot. A fight of all places here on our American story and view of the great American stories we tell and love America like we do for asking you to become a part of the American stories family. If you agree that America is a good and great country. Please make a donation monthly gift of $17.76 is fast becoming a favorite option for supporters to allow American stories.com now and go to the donate button and help us keep the great American stories coming@ouramericanstories.com. Millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year and United healthcare can help you feel confident about your choices for those eligible Medicare annual enrollment runs from October 15 through December 7.

If you're working past age 65. You might be able to delay Medicare enrollment.

Depending on your employer coverage. It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be this. It UHC Medicare health plans.com to learn more United healthcare helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop for small business insurance. I mean, my State Farm agent make sure my business days: incompetent business owners to help the past. State Farm is in your corner and on like a neighbor. There call your local State Farm agent for quote today doing household chores can Artie be time-consuming and tedious. And there's nothing more daunting than facing piles and piles of laundry that need to be Darren can be overwhelming for anyone. If you want to get those larger laundry loads down right and get back to your life.

Try all three clear maggot packs all three clear mega packs are bigger packs two times the cleaning ingredients compared to a regular pack so that you can tackle any laundry load without the worry all three clear maggot packs are also 100% free of perfumes and dyes and their dental and skin which is great for any family sensitive skin needs my family. We definitely have sensitive skin. The next time the whole family gets home from long vacation or you get the kids back from summer camp or whatever the situation as that's cause this big pile of dirty clothes. All three clear maggot packs purchase all three clear maggot packs today and conquer any laundry load for all fabric types. And we continue here with our American stories and love stories, family businesses today is the story of a company who recently celebrated their 194 members of the sixth generation and leadership roles just happens to be America's oldest brewery Yingling hears Jennifer Yingling six generation family member back as always.

I have three sisters and the four of us comprise the six generation of so our dad rich again link test generation current owner and president has essentially been at the helm now for over 30 years since 1985.

We were founded in 1829 by my great great-great-grandfather I he emigrated from Germany came over here and we've learned that he was the youngest of his siblings and his father was a brewer in Germany.

David G realized that he would not have an opportunity to own and run the family business so that he decided to come to America and settled here in Pottsville, Pennsylvania time. Anthracite coal is becoming quite popular seven months of thirsty coal miners coming home from work every day.

So he is buried in downtown Pottsville is actually down on Center Street where our City Hall now stands at 1929 was destroyed by fire selling 1831, he relocated to the present site where we are now a test of time restraints we refer to that as our historic ferry built into the side of the mountain so there was no electricity, no refrigeration by those names. In those days, so he dug tunnels into the side of that mountain to use natural refrigeration of the earth to ancient locker. The Bears also there was a spring. Well, not far from that location. So he used all of this water furnace is brewing needs and then handed him a couple sizes. One Sunday, Jean Junior he branched off on his own started brewery in Richmond Virginia James Wintersteen very David was all that successful because it only lasted a few years. So transition then sent to second-generation third-generation was Frank Yingling was my great-grandfather and he probably was at the helm longer, say, 6 to 7 years longer than any other owner went through a lot of different child relations and probably the biggest being prohibition was enacted in 1918 he really was a true entrepreneur learned how to diversify a few real estate type ventures made near beer and that was one half of 1% alcohol is legal in those days, so it is fair to keep many of his workers still employed 10 years of their biggest innovation diversification that overall was that he built the dairy, just across the street from Brian, he made ice cream products prohibition came to an he had a batch of what he called Winterberry as though the breweries had one prohibition that ready the day probation is Eli's doorstep the next day, forcing it into my grandfather and his brother's really lean years getting into kind of the 60s and 70s, there was the rise of the mega brewers if you well.

You had your Budweiser course interstate transportation became widely used in St. Louis Missouri and has a bush can make them. I can get it across the country much more quickly than they had in the past. Advertising and merchandising budgets marketing budgets became so a lot of the local wars regional growers started to either go out of business.

Families didn't want to run them anymore or they simply got bought out by these by this figure, brewers, and give that forth generation my grandfather and his brother Dorman a lot of credit for just hanging in there through this. Those lean years because her wasn't a lot of extra resources and capital to invest but they were able to get by. We had a lot of local support from our community. They supported our brands and we just we just like my dad likes to say we hung in there my grandfather became ill in the mid-80s, at which time my dad had broken off from the brewery had his own distributorships to his local wholesaler here in town so I still maintain ties locally here just distance himself from the plan so and when his father became ill on he came back into the business took it over. And that's when we really started to see our huge growth trajectory taking couple initiatives that didn't work he invested handed once he had the ability to invest in vested machinery, increased our packs and efficiencies and he came out with some good brands like art traditional log stuff like shipped today black and tan and Dominic I. So some great innovation thereto in my dad's early years that put us on the map and enabled us to broaden our reach and expand our footprint mother talk about the founder being an entrepreneur. Some say he found his own business and I almost think Frank the third-generation was very entrepreneurial and being able to diversify the way dad and I think my dad has a lot of the same characteristics, so he had a vision of number one. This logger brands that he wanted to get into consumer's hands. The beer that had more taste, more character than what most consumers were used to seeing at that time my dad along with Jim Cook, the owner of Samuel Adams Boston Boston. Essentially, pioneers in the craft brewing movement. The first wants to come out this beer that little different.

It wasn't yellow for us to it, it was an amber colored beer with a little more flavor to it. So he had a vision number one his entrepreneur and I think he had a lot of confidence in knowing what he wanted to do and very independently thinking to buy able to surround himself with people but it was in the marketing department. The sales department to get where he wanted to go.

I think he saw that you know that the standard yellow Pilsner's they were gaining volume and realize that you can educate consumers to different styles and different beers that are out there that have a different flavor profile to the man he really he had heated on the mark with a lot of brand.

It's about between 70 and 80% of our sales today, so he grew the business.

We had our original historic Pottsville brewery which he got to the point where was maxed out passively so.

By the late 90s we were maxed out that we make in more beer than the brewery was able to sustain my sisters and I started to play a role because his thinking was I need to invest here. I need to invest in this company.

If I want to continue to grow, but I want to do that unless I know the next generation is as interested but once he recognize that we had that commitment. We were interested in coming into the business and he made the decision to build this brewery that were sitting in right now so we call this our Newbery even though it is 20 years old and this is been here since since 2000. At the same time know, he'll build a brewery in a day takes couple years so we still had that we still had to get beer into wholesalers warehouses could be just could not make enough of our Pottsville so the timing was was was appropriate. He happened to be in Tampa Florida and on the last stroke brewery in the country was was up for sale. So lots of different things all coming together really well there. The timing of the size of the brewery was good for us so we bought that strobe plan to some child who's got a flavor match and then all that initial beer came up into our northern markets to satisfy our our wholesalers needs to be able to start pumping beer adhere that point time once we had beer coming out here to start opening markets. New York, Maryland, Virginia, then the beer from Tampa we started opening up our southern markets North South Carolina, Florida and then we've expanded as far west as Mississippi, Tennessee, and currently in 22 states, it's amazing having his I would say it's close to 60 years of industry experience. So I think every day it's picking his brain.

Understanding why he thinks the way does this, he was around and he remembers those lean days so is not quick to make changes or decisions because he's wearing this for the long term, and we we've been here for hundred 90 years elite when we say we want to be here for the next hundred 90 years and I don't think our ancestors would've allowed us to be here this long, if they made too many major decisions so he's he's very very meticulous about his thinking. I think that's one of the things that we we've all learned from him.

Don't don't jump into something or jump on a trend or fad. Just because everybody else is because some of those guys might not be here tomorrow.

Our goal is to be here for the next several generations. The voice of the sixth generation of young boys provide some really lean years in the 60s and 70s when companies like words and Budweiser mass retailers were added to the end. Really, the pioneers in this area along with the Samuel Adams folks and my goodness exploding.

Now today when we return to continue with the story of the six generation family business on our American story millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year.

Healthcare can help you feel confident about your choices for those eligible Medicare annual enrollment runs from October 15 through December 7. If you're working past age 65. You might be able to delay Medicare enrollment. Depending on your employer coverage. It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be UHC Medicare health plans.com to learn more United healthcare helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop for small business insurance. I need my State Farm agent make sure my business days piping hot and I think cool and confident the business owners to help you best.

State Farm is in your corner and on like a good neighbor. There call your local State Farm agent for quote today doing household chores can Artie be time-consuming and tedious.

There's nothing more daunting than facing piles and piles of laundry that need to be done can be overwhelming for anyone.

If you want to get those larger laundry loads down bright and get back to your life. Try all three clear mega packs all three clear mega packs are bigger packs two times the cleaning ingredients compared to a regular pack so that you can tackle any laundry load without the worry all three clear mega packs are also 100% free perfumes and dyes and their dental and skin which is great for any family sensitive skin needs my family. We definitely have sensitive skin. The next time the whole family gets home from long vacation or you get the kids back from summer camp or whatever the situation is. That's because this big pile of dirty clothes. All three clear mega packs have your back purchase all three clear mega packs today and conquer any laundry load for all fabric types with our stories and the story of you going America's oldest brewery which just celebrated its 190 anniversary. The company successes come in part from their patients. Let's get back to Jennifer 70s as well like bears started to develop and I think about the lake there to the late 80s so that we give it time to make sure it's something that's gonna stick before we just jump on the bandwagon.

Several change our model because our whole business model is kind of about scale and volume. So we run we run very few products we make them well and we set up our production lines and we don't do a lot of changeovers were extremely efficient and we need to be as a small I say that relatively small brewery today playing in the same swimming pool with global brewers. We have to be very meticulous with maintaining those efficiencies and saving monies grew up in Pottsville, went to college not too far from here, did a year after college. Not knowing what I wanted to do a little coaching went on to graduate school, got my graduate degree and it was during that time was just finishing that up when we had that kind of like come to Jesus meeting with her dad like you guys want to do with their lives. And I have a job lined up. Didn't know where I was thought of the timing is right for me that as I go Home to home here in 20+ years ago to where I am now in operations I found that on my own and just decided sales and marketing wasn't really my thing. Accounting wasn't my thing but I immerse myself in the operations and went through a training program is rigorous everything from incoming raw materials through the brewing process. Hot side fermentation storage, filtration, packaging, warehousing, logistics, so soup to nuts, went to school then just like a 10 week course and found my own way longingly along the years I've tried to take some of the responsibilities on my dad's hands and scheduling, ordering materials and try make life easier for him at the same time learning from him how he does things so that guided me in the role of VP of operations right now so I was actually I was at first want to come on board and then Debbie and then Wendy and Cheryl slowly reached the guard took her own has to get where we where we are. We each have very different personalities. In one respect, but interesting. I think more so so much and I gravitated in operations. Wendy runs our sales and marketing Debbie does a lot with our employees are culturally and Cheryl works in order services so we don't overlap a lot and I think that's a big part of our success. Because I think if we were overlapping too much tripping over each other. We would probably struggle to make decisions. Whereas, because we have our own kind of areas of responsibilities it works out well for us bleach in different areas of expertise. So it's a matter of respecting the others expertise in their area and on still the ultimate decision-maker's legacies. Now he's here every single day in and he's earned that right.

But I think there's that comfort factor in that we have different ways of thinking. Sometimes.

But in the end what's best for the business is important to all of us so that's I think that's generally how we resolve anything that comes up that needs to be decided by think it's been some things I don't say it was a mistake. Things that we've done that.

Maybe we've taken our eye off of our little refer to our core brands. An example would be seasonals. We started making seasonals a few years ago and I think we do as we transition would have Oktoberfest in the fall and that we would roll into an IPL our version of an IPA at Kellogg or roll into summer weight and that would be cyclical and they were great brands. Consumers love them. Brewers enjoyed making them. We had great packaging but I think we learned that they became a bit of a distraction so our operations people were now spending a lot of time and being inefficient because we were making these brands are sales people were were taught were pushing these brands in game shelf space with wholesalers and retailers, but in the meantime, we took our focus off of our locker brand, and I think we took a step back when I realized like this is our bread and butter. This is what we have to put first and foremost, so we decided to step back from seasonals a bit still make Oktoberfest mothballed the other recipes for the time being. We keep things very simple. We don't over complicate things work hard or expect everybody in the company to work hard. There's no sense of entitlement for anybody. We expect our people to think for themselves. Figure problems out. We don't have a lot of layers were not corporate. If an hourly employee needs something that individual has accessibility not just to my sisters and me and obviously his or her manager but to our dad.

So were we have us a strong presence as a family across across our employees and wholesalers. We look at ourselves to as a multigenerational family owned company but were also very proud of the generations of employees that we have our company to so another kind of fun fact is that we've determined that 10% of our employees and we have about 350 employees, 10% of those either have or have had a family member work here so that's that's kind that's very important to us and it shows that were were dedicated to our employees their passion about us and we there and able to have opportunities as well. So between our two breweries here in Pennsylvania were separated by a temporary by roughly a thousand miles but there's there's been folks who have transition from one brewery to another.

So it's you we have folks who started here as a one individual particular as a forklift operator. He worked his way up to a lead and he's now our packaging manager in Tampa so it's that opportunity and that training in growth and development that I had as a family member to go through the company, but that were able to support our employees. I can think of another example of is our plan coordinator over in Pottsville and started here in his early 20s clan tanks is what he did is like the lowest job number is the claim tax claim tanks worked in the racking room, worked his way up to a Brewer brew cleaned brewing equipment when we brought this plan online. He was instrumental in getting this started up again, working from the bottom up and gives her brewing manager for several years and now he has ownership of our possible plans so everybody and everything over there is falls under his jurisdiction and he works here. His wife works here in the accounting department's two daughters going to college that work for us part-time son is a Brewer over possible so you can get that same theme that family thing. If you are employees of folks who start here you are 18 years old and they retire when their 65.

Every generation leaves its mark on my dad's is obviously the tremendous growth that we've experienced during his tenure, and not a company that does things to too quickly, we joke take this hundred 90 years to get where we are and we want the successive generations coming after us to have the same opportunities that we want to leave this bury in good hands, viable, sustainable sustainability, we want to be conscious of our environment as well so I think just leaving a good company for the next generations of us. You been listening to Jennifer Yingling and the voice of the sixth generation of young wings that is 190 years we been together and there's no doubt will be together.

Another hundred 90 listening to the care with which they run things by the way, it was so extreme that they didn't see this merely is a family business, but it was a family business related as relates to the workers small businesses propel the nation are the ones that turn into bigger business 350 employees at 350 families, small business Yingling story voice Jennifer versus VP of operations there. Yingling story here on our American millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year and United healthcare can help you feel confident about your choices for those eligible Medicare annual enrollment runs from October 15 through December 7. If you're working past age 65. You might be able to delay Medicare enrollment. Depending on your employer coverage. It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be this UHC Medicare health plans.com to learn more United healthcare helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop for small business insurance. I need my State Farm agent make sure my business days piping hot and I think cool and confident the business owners to help you best. State Farm is in your corner and on like a good neighbor.

There call your local State Farm agent for quote today doing household chores can Artie be time-consuming and tedious. There's nothing more daunting than facing piles and piles of laundry that need to be done can be overwhelming for anyone. If you want to get those larger laundry loads down bright and get back to your life. Try all three clear maggot packs all three clear mega packs are bigger packs two times the cleaning ingredients compared to a regular packs of that you can tackle any laundry load without the worry all three clear mega packs are also 100% free perfumes and dyes and their dental and skin which is great for any families sensitive skin needs my family. We definitely have sensitive skin.

The next time the whole family gets home from long vacation or you get the kids back from summer camp or whatever the situation is. That's because this big pile of dirty clothes and all three clear maggot packs have your back purchase all three clear mega packs today and conquer any laundry load for all fabric types. We returned to our American students mixed story colder winters Pearl is the author of the award-winning books never worn what it is like to go to war all is also a Vietnam War veteran and the recipient of the Navy Cross relation second post award for about 1967. Call was far removed from the chaos of battle, the position of privilege is called tell the story of why you chose to join the Marines and why he later chose to go to Vietnam was a series of landmark books that I can put it out. One of the big publishers. It was like the story of Betsy Ross American flag. The story of Thomas Jefferson almost things are like Britain for like about 10-year-old 12. I remember reading one called the story of the US Marines and I just fascinated, but more importantly, it was this thing like the guys on the football team.

Good athletes good runners when they left high school, they would go down to some mysterious place called San Diego CRD Marine Corps recruiting people and the they come back for slow Sundance, which we never saw where we live, and they would. I swear to God. They looked like they were 4 inches broader than the shoulder 2 inches taller than it would literally swagger down the main street were little town Seaside Oregon which was a logging town about 2500 people, 15, 16 years old and I'm just thinking myself. I don't know what that is. But I want some of that Marine recruiter talking to Linda I read you know about the Marines I've seen John Wayne the Sands of Iwo Jima, and I know with the Marines to the land on which is all that sort of stuff I said they do anything else and he looks at you regard all the embassies over the world.

I would really like in Paris and he said absolutely and I could swear to God this is what went through my mind away. Well, the odds are you will get Paris but you surely get Madrid or Rome. Sign me up so so the combination of those things and then there was the draft was patriotism.

I grew up in a time when virtually everybody's dad and uncle was in with the goal of the service will call it that it and what we call it the military.

That's an enormous important change in our language allows you and your dad was in the service that was when your uncle was in the service and there was that sense of you know the draft was like the income tax likes to pay the tax. Nobody wanted to get drafted but you sort of felt like the old country, you know, it's like you know the country won't operate in less you pay your taxes. We don't know the roads don't get fixed unless you pay your taxes.

Country is safe unless you when they draft are you going to do your bit that was the feeling at that time.

That was the late 1950s and early 1960s, so there was that there was the fact.

What if I can do is sort of a young man you know challenge that I make so I joined as a team program called appeals class was a classic Marine Corps program, it was likely to give you any money doing as listed in the reserves went off to Quantico and the summertime and with if you survived what which is the same. Then you got to go to college but they didn't pay you back in the summer and at the end of that commission graduated from college, went to Oxford scholarship, 1967. I thought that would be the Marines would let me do because the Marines were really short of junior officers. They were great. Go ahead. It's a great honor. I got roads. After about six or eight weeks over there having a wonderful time. I just felt guilty. Is this little highschooler grew up six boys died about 70 served in the Vietnam War and the high school was about middle 400 kids so 200 boys and it was so pretty amazing that I was. I just felt guilty. I was pulling my war. I wasn't contributing like they were they were put themselves out there and I was hiking back and I was always raised never to do that for me this is something that you don't do you know if your friends are risking themselves and you will there with the with them and I was choosing not to do that is letting them take the risk and that I felt like I use the word is hiding behind the privilege. Most of the guys I went to high school with the visioning, go to college. That's why such a large percentage of served in Vietnam because in those days the draft was very unfair could get out of service you got a doctor say that you had a bad knee. You could say that you were gay you could see a number things and the other one was legitimate one, which is for long times over to S deferment. If you were in college. The wooden draft which is horribly skewed toward the wealthier part of the country, but it didn't make sense to me is a war that was just not making sense. Just was looking at was the word problematical unethical. I mean, you know, trying to measure the war by how many people we killed.

That's not a moral situation killing people in the military is a consequence of trying to get something else done.

That's the objective and if people get killed on the way that that that is warfare, but but objective of just killing people is, in my opinion, immoral, and we had no we didn't have an objective other than you know will save the South Vietnamese government that was looking a little dicey because I was the corrupt government on the other hand, I could see that the North was totalitarian government that it looked good. It was just a mess and it was a moral moral mess and so you know it's a will and you shouldn't go but I had sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution of United States and I took my will seriously I swear to God that I would uphold the Constitution United States and the Constitution United States says that the present United States. The commander-in-chief of the military civilian control of the military is absolutely essential, and if the military decides that it doesn't want to do with the civilians ask it to do. You got a banana republic so you can have a military were individual people say that I don't agree with the present to uphold the Constitution United States.

You either have to resign or do what you're told.

But now all of a sudden we're fighting a war which the civilians in control decided to put this into well now I've got to moral issues, both of which I agree with, which is the war is wrong, but already in the military. I've swore an oath to do what the Constitution had set up. That was my moral dilemma and I was very acutely conscious. My girlfriend at the time that you go to Sweden with me.

She didn't want put Algeria Algeria was taking deserters and I wouldn't of been a draft are driving in a desert.

That's a one step above the so I have to admit that that's a little bit scary to know that that would've hindered my friend. I was just decided to turn his draft card as a protest and we spent this really long night place. I have the feeling that we were sort of hovering over a single candle is not true, but the feeling of it was the two of us just the two of us in the single light in this dark room is trying to decide what to do were 23 years old.

I was 22 and were trying to decide what to do in a terrible dilemma and believe me, wrote scholarship is nothing that you throw away. We didn't throw them away. We gave them up with great reluctance but we made the decision that I send my letter into the Marine Corps and I go to Vietnam draft garden got out of England got to Canada took off. I think a couple days after that decision was reading was was back in America in the Marine Corps and on active duty, admiring greatly somebody else just sort of hid behind the privilege of people asked me how you feel about the guys went to Canada like the least active. Most of them with honor. So I think that the issue was being true to you to your moral position, but it wasn't easy.

Think you know people would like to think that those kinds of decisions are easy. I just felt ultimately I just couldn't stay there hiding and look myself in the mirror and a terrific job on the production by Monty Montgomery. Special thanks to Carmel unto us for sharing this remarkable story service versus the military difference between the two under your moral code to young men took very different positions, and in the end will Carl had respect for both call story here on our American stores