Should Messianic Jews Live Like Orthodox Jews?

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network, so should messianic Jews lived like traditional Jews. When traditional views and how should Jewish believers in Jesus relate to Jewish tradition for the light a fire with your host Google scholar and cultural commentator Dr. Michael Brown your voice for more savvy and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTHs to get on the line of fire and now there's your host Dr. Michael Brown broadcast on thoroughly Jewish Thursday number to call 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 7884. A little background on them to bring on my guest David Costello a few years back. There was reports different parts of the Jewish world saw the news flashes example Jerusalem Post reporting that there was a Christian couple posing as Orthodox Jews trying to win Orthodox Jews to Jesus in Chicago. So was a headline of the Jews of Jerusalem post and I so Jewish telegraph agency so widespread Jewish news reporting the same thing. This was scandalous.

This was shocking. A couple that unashamedly said we believe Jesus is the Messiah living as traditional views and saying what really was traditional views because that's what Jesus wants us to do. Then it was even reported in the New York Post of headlines as well. New York Post saying the very same thing so this was big news. I was even contacted by different people in the Jewish world asking me about this because I'm in constant contact with ultra-Orthodox rabbis most recent contact earlier today Mrs. Stan Knight, constant interaction for decades, interacting with the community living the community very very deeply in the midst of our deep differences or you show so this report was very scandalous and it furthered the day further fuel to the fire that Jewish believers in Jesus are deceptive will will go to any means to try to trick with juice etc. what a case that's that's what I'd read about it there is another case of morels similar well.

A few months back we were contacted by the gentleman involved in this day because those wife, Rivka, living in Chicago. They said they have a messianic synagogue of us Klingon, which is Hebrew for baseless love.

So love without any cause or reason. What Yeshua shows us as opposed to the baseless hatred that put him to death and they said they like to come on my radio show and present what they do and why. And on their own Facebook page. They advertised it as wanting to come on and debate me when people over to their position so we are prepared to differ. Just so you know coming in. We are prepared to differ.

It's not that I'm setting my guest up or that he's going to surprise me. We are prepared to differ, but first we'll get some basic background so this would give either the the large picture and without further ado, let me bring on a David and Rivka Castella. Thanks much for joining us today welcome. Thank you for having me on. You are very welcome.

So David is just you are you and Rivka is a smear of God take care of her now work. It had a baby about a month ago all our thing about like that congratulations are in sync. First let's let's just lay out a couple things for information sake over different reports about with you and Rivka or Jewish. According to Jewish tradition, which would mean that your mother is Jewish, will put aside the question of are your convert religion and debate the just to be clear on this so we can set the record straight or you Jewish according to Jewish tradition, so the basic answer of that sort of company article. Good question about it. I had about look into it but circumcise me call me a finale and a button to go into the mix to get a what that was considered a conversion just through just to be saved, their family members with state-of-the-art and on my side, and terrific. I have gone through a gone through a messianic conversion with a rabbi who has Orthodox Mika.

She has got to sleep. She and the kids have gone through an Orthodox conversion.

She was, not not Jewish. Originally but after the conversion through the messianic we consider her Jewish… The Orthodox world may not do your assessments so you would think so, but just deciding to be clear on that. Okay so just at first. Secondly, what you believe about Yeshua and in terms of quote salvation forgiveness coming into right relationship with God.

We can talk about the tradition that's will focus on the rest of the broadcast right. The first is the most basic things for a listening audience with plenty of Christians 20 messianic 20 views you don't believe what we believe.

So, give, give her basically is there in my basement. That usually is Messiah and that he had come to get to get into a better relationship with God. A full relationship with God. On the walk with him in obedient to what God has put out and what you declared to prefer lives and that we can be in right relationship with him mimicking out true fellowship through fellowship and complete fellowship with him. We believe all political logically required to believe Messiah the Rambam says in his mission of Torah that you you have to believe in him and Messiah and that you have to walk according to all the hawk of your Jewish or non-Jewish you don't need to keep a locket of the seven know I love to believe that he's eternal deity. No no okay got it all clear that so you don't believe in God's tri-unity in any way like okay so how did Jesus come to be Jesus: formed before the fountain before the foundation of the world… In an midrash the Messiah: his name was. Bobby for the before the creation of the world, it's one of the few things were created before the foundational world. And of course our Messiah was first and so he was born for Mary and Joseph and he he lived his life and then died and resurrected. Okay so so just were clear on this, then your your belief would be in terms of his preexistence closer to a Jehovah's Witness than traditional Christian numbers because you don't believe is eternal deity you believe he was created at some point but was preexistent amine and rucksack power okay right so that Mikey would be heretical) out of the physical body.)

He's a created being, and you don't don't worship him in any way as God right okay right so you're right there. From my perspective that's heretical just just we should be clear and again what my reason for laying this out.

David is not to attack but to have spare understanding of of that of which we speak it clear not okay I okay it isn't widely known when when other Christians talk about your work or quick missionary work reaching unreached that you hold these views is that widely known in your circles you have done a couple of other interviews. Recently there are people who know what my parents know and I'll arguably talk about know it you know it you're going into a pastor to talk at a church or something like that.

These are questions that are asked men, though the answer them right and ability.

Okay so I want to absolutely say that while I want to give you a few minutes to just lay out your argument and make your case and then I'll respond okay so right now I'm asking questions to gather information because I don't know you at all.

Beyond the couple of emails and the little bit that's available online so that your answering away.

I do know that you believe that until this moment, so I was and how to set you up just right on the probe okay in your view. If a Jewish person who spent time with you heard the message. Senior arguments openly and willingly rejects issue is not someone is being persecuted by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages and being told be baptized or die. If no clue who Jesus is both spent time with you your community that heard the message the senior lives and they reject him or are they in any sense lost does it affect their eternal destiny.

So I'm not so much concerned about eternal death that I care more mostly about your right relationship with God and I believe your relationship with God is correct on the near eternal death, and they will also be correct though. My main concern is whether or not they are connected to God in the correct way of the gun. The Rambam also brings the thought of mission of Torah as well so that if you reject him Messiah, then you are essentially one who thrown away the Torah in the mythos, and therefore you are not a course that would affect your understanding from a Jewish perspective as to whether or not you have a place in the world to come. Every time you clean Rambam you just did him a massive disservice because Rambam categorically rejected Jesus along with Mohammed and the Messiah which he spoke was not the crucified Messiah.

He was patently clear on that. That if is the Messiah, he will not die before completing his mission. So, the Messiah, which he spoke is different one than Jesus.

So when you when you refer to the Rambam to now make reference to believe in Jesus you insist like if I say will the president said, but I'm not talking about Pres. by them talk about Pres. George Washington is putting words and I'm surely notice you read enough to notice the enemy and I'm thinking of traditional views listening to this is what's he doing is misrepresenting my moderately severe Rambam that usually tried to be Messiah, but he failed with any repair of the world for Messiah so that when it came time for Messiah to come in. The nurse to Messiah's file menu, Messiah Ben David, though in his mission.

Talking about the Messiah, Ben David, the one who is going to bring the kingdom, though I would Messiah Ben Yosef. He prepared the world for preparation for final redemption, which is what we believe that you shall is doing currently data David concerning truck but you know that's not what he meant. You know he was, not making Jesus into Mysia and you're safe. In fact, in those very passages he doesn't mention she has been you're safe in any redemptive way there in employment important fact in and you respond.

This outbreak at this expected fall to this dish immediately, but integrity requires me to point this out that that occurs Maimonides that was a real Messiah comes Christians and others Muslims, they will repent of the lies that they believed to believing in Jesus believing in the hobbit to please, whatever you do make a case without Maimonides is against you respond on the inside of the break we will be right back to the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown Brown delighted to have you with us, please together real Messiah website. Real Messiah.com. You can watch debates about with rabbis. You can read or view answers to the most common Jewish objections to you. She will get lots more information.

Reputation of some of the counter missionary videos of Rabbi Toby Singer, tons of great resources for you all free real Messiah.com or at times I'm speaking with David Castella who asked if he could come on the radio show and debate with me about semi Jews and Jewish tradition we've really discovered some profound differences in belief as to who Jesus is, views that in my view and and most the church would be can send most of the messianic Jewish community would be considered heretical which David is obviously no news to you.

So right before the break. I say that you are using Maimonides Rambam in a duplicitous way.

I feel a million percent sure that any traditional Rabbi would agree with me in a heartbeat, and that they would say you are deeply misrepresenting him and that when he says that in one way Jesus prepared the world of for the coming Messiah.

That's by getting the talk knowledge about Messiah out that the recession's one is the Messiah and Mohammed did a by either they both brought terrible destruction to the world that Mohammed did good in that Islam is put an emphasis on keeping the commandments of when the real Messiah comes doesn't talk about shift when you're safe there. But when the real Messiah comes in shift when David of the one of whom he speaks that that's now the ways been prepared so that is. Jeremiah prophesied these people been influenced by Christians and Muslims that will repent of the lies they believed in turn to the one true God. So again when you speak of Maimonides and his confession, which is not about shift when you're safe. It's about shift.

When David the say you believe in the coming Messiah.

You say what it means we have to believe in Jesus. Don't Maimonides rejected Jesus was talk about the traditional Jewish Messiah. You must know that to me again. I'm a little surprised to be honest, so if I'm reacting a surprise way. It's not put on.

I'm surprised that you would do this because it seems to be completely deceptive and submit any traditional Jew would recognize in a moment or thought through all time about it a lot at the date of the great thing about the weather is plaintiff to avoid out of this agreement and with Messiah of the more immediate possibly better places.

I motivated volley of value shall is the thought of Michelle when you go there is that as well, along with a lot of other negative things, but I think you should himself was proponents of keeping the oral law on all on a lot of that has to do with sort of what we're going to talk about the idea of mutual acuity oral law.

A lot of the lies and things that I think the talk about the mission of Torah is the idea of the oral law and the law itself has been done away with the knife, though I think that one of those things been in think you should himself really goes after our Elliott argues for the oral law and a number of 26, is in Scripture right. Are you sure the Bible actually uphold oral law. So I think that what is what is discussing susu you have ample time to present some arguments to back your case, but would you agree this very simply with them with integrity before God. Would you agree that when Rambam commodities says it is a tenet of faith that we confess our belief in the coming Messiah. He was, not talking about Jesus. He was talking about traditional Jew Miss Jewish Messiah not someone who died it was crucified, and rose from the dead he was.

Not talk about Jesus. He was talking about traditional Jewish messianic expectations. Would you agree with that. Yeah, they described I would describe that of Michelle and David. Okay fine so when you made reference to after believing in his Maimonides told us to eat.

He didn't say believe in Jesus. He didn't believe in Jesus the presupposing energies Messiah son of David, not someone who would be crucified in his okay are I hope you drop that argument then because it's it's deceptive right out of the gate and then last question and then you can go ahead and and begin to make your case for why Jewish believers should keep the oral law so to get back to the question about the religious Jew today. God is the judge of every human being right, but the fact that you went with your wife to mission eyes and to bring your particular brand of faith to traditional Jewish community means that you think these people would be enhanced or helped by knowing about Jesus. So can a traditional Jew without any reference to issue with any reference to what he did on the cross without any reference to his atoning blood simply by seeking to honor God and follow the written and oral law is as hundreds of thousands of several million Jews around the world today.

Could that person be in right relationship with God.

Theoretically, in your view, and intimate fellowship with God right relationship with God completely aside from issue no. Got it. So then if they're not in right relationship with God now that could affect their eternal destiny.

Yet again, I'm not. I'm not super concerned with that much but yet not out of the idea. Okay, got it all clear right so we got a few minutes before the break, so go ahead and begin to make your presentation is is radio time. It's not a formal face-to-face lengthy debate. Some guy breaks, but start in on your argument as to why Jewish believers in Jesus again where we differ on who he is, but Jewish believers in Jesus are required to keep the written Torah and the altar. Yeah, I mean he eat here to the oral Toronto make use of the oral Torah" of Paul and other Bible well out of liftoff aversive brightly him actually using oral law in order to defend in order to 20. What he teaches all start with for the first length of the most important law is the belief in the unity of God. The Shema is foundational the foundation to all other keeping of the Torah method, which is what traditional duty of the belief of well though I go back.

The first question related Acme. The idea that the Shema that God is one and only one is foundational to.net is in fact a Beijing that if followed by the McCarthy he lives on the flip of the verse is often an bring out a couple things in Matthew 1211 Matthew 12 one Mark two 2312 five Mark 227 Luke 416, Luke 1315, Luke 2354 56 John 723 Act I 12 Act III one at 61 Roman two Hebrews 85 Luke 14 one. Matthew 13 2443 Luke chapter 1 with the naming of John and then we have in Matthew 2335. In Matthew 23 one.

Those who fit upon the speed of Moses have the authority to do what they do.

Revelation 12,000 2128. Act 830 to 34, Luke 24, 20, 24, 27 first Corinthians 1117-14 verse 15 Matthew 517 38 Matt 1880, and these are the verses where their lot more about those earth for the verses that I had prepared for infant is where your show is either keeping oral law or engaging in oral law and teaching others to do so as well, though that really the foundation for that God so I categorically reject your position for for many many reasons based on Scripture first and foremost, but will go back and look at some of those examples for those that are not familiar with some of the citations. Many I recognized in my head in her responses to me than the others will have to check the reference but I could list a million versus the question is are they say what I think they say is is the argument sound. Otherwise, it's zero) are equal zero or substance for substance. This makes a very powerful argument or listen to break coming up so quick question, and then death then will diving deeper. I want to ask you questions. Were you sure renounces various traditions of the Pharisees, etc. and then then you pick your best verse or two and you open it up, but just want to understand because one of the great issues with oral Toronto is that it's content.

It continues to be lived out in the rabbinic community today so who is the Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox rabbi, whom you follow, to whom you're submitted right now even play butter heroine kicked out so I don't really have an Orthodox rabbi can follow. Unfortunately though, the is my ready in the way that I the rabbi that I follow.

The reason I asked was one of my ultra-Orthodox friend said that if you met some of you that would be the very first question he would ask you and of course because he would instantly view you as a heretic and reject you, which obviously happen the moment people find out who you really were or the sincere intent.

The month of and you really were they they put you under the band, you were you were excommunicated and traditional views would not look at you or your wife is Jews are also they just look at US Christian imposters of Christians was a young Christian needed to deny fundamentals of the faith you sought obviously are sincere, but that was a very small group it in agreement here does make it right or wrong, but to make clear again you are not living as a follower of Jesus in my book, not living as a traditional Jew in the traditional Judaism as you know, that's a situation which you find yourself. I remember friends David asked, Michelle, please remember that you write back to the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown to learn Brown. Welcome back to thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

By the way, if you're unable to get through today. If we don't get to calls later in the show. The 45 minutes from now on our YouTube channel.

Ask a deer Brown Esther Gibran you to be doing our weekly live Q&A chat so it's a great time feet away in their or ask your questions. They are's B for 15 Eastern time asked Dr. Brown ask a deer Brown YouTube channel where some of your watching live right now I want to get back to my guest David Costello so David another very specific question and have limited us for our listeners not familiar with the concept of role traditional Jews believe that God gave Moses the written law to rush a bit out of the oral law to rush of all pay and that that contains interpretation, understanding, application of the oral law sum given by revelation to Moses. Some developed in each generation is been paid as is the was a been passed down and lived out in Holocaust speak specifically of traditional Jewish law in the New Testament is reflected with the Pharisees often and was referred to as the tradition of the elders which Judaism becomes known as the tradition of the fathers and then put in writing couple centuries after the time of Yeshua in the Mishnah and then subsequently developed in the Talmud law codes, etc. which are study and still develop with commentary. To this day. So David, it's, it's your view that the rabbinic leaders, none of whom followed Yeshua. In other words, the ones that recorded in the Mishnah going back tell Ellen show Myron after none of them to everything that we have recorded believed in Yeshua so hit the contemporaries of the, the Pharisees and then the rabbis that followed them none of them believe that Jesus was the Messiah right through the. The Talmudic rabbi, so the Tana and the Sioux goats lead up to the less blessed a pair that would have been in Jesus day, but then the Tana team and then after that, the more I am and after that the supper I am at and enter the recently in the offing so that the entire stress stretch of tradition from then until now with all that the leaders of it, all of them did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Many of course had no real idea who he was, as the centuries developed and he became lost in a lot of church tradition, but in your view, they accurately transmitted the traditions and gobs with them in doing so, to the point that we need to follow all all of that stuff right up until today, but they were wrong about the Messiah. Is that correct this dissent trouble, you will or make you wonder how they can be's. So off and yet so on.

No.

Is not troubling to me. They have been given the growing need to bathe. They've been given the oracles of God and so the Jewish people are their duty to pass the down Yeshua and felt interact and go to eat with the Pharisees.

Largely anti-thought. If you say be part of a false report of understanding the thing in immediately and starting more with the Dorothy and in fact in the book of John E. John said that there is one among you who do not know it.

Beginning of Messiah and there are you talking to people and from the heart. Even though he was working within the system. I recently had an Orthodox rabbi was talking to Thao I never realized you working within the within the Jewish system you thought it is not outside of the Jewish system is actually in the city. He says to that you system is very specifically Mark seven Matthew 15 very specifically with reference to these very traditions the traditions of the Pharisees, you leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men, you have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish the tradition and in numerous points of Matthew has constant conflict between Yeshua and the Pharisees is rejecting the present day lived among them, so there certain things he would do it certainly didn't go to synagogue within ventricular the traditions up around seven woes on them. In Matthew 23. Based on their traditions so these within the system as a first century Jew right some of found harmony with him the Sadducees some harmony with the scenes of harmony with Pharisees having Jesus scholars debate that to this day, but he is a very very strong things to say about how their traditions nullify the word of God. There first off, there are a few in Mark chapter 7. Five other handwashing. There are actually two groups of therapy.

There is one group are you called base minor is another group of heart you called.

Lally could think of them if two denominations are at the time of the shoe was on the earth. There was a debate about the handwashing base for my Elder you should and water every bit of food where they hello Elder, you should only watch him for the Cumberland so he's obviously in this cave debating base of my he's arguing against them, but is something that had not yet been thought of old tradition at the new tradition was trying to come out of the pilot Yeshua was not fully stylish about point in time.

Later, when the temple was destroyed.

In fact, we now watch her hand to remind us of the temple was destroyed one of the reasons that we want her hand to remind us of the colors red at the time Yeshua speaking these words a couple of damping the E would have an issue with eating non-holy food food. Paul: with washing of the hands where the where is the beat where the base my hourglass hands for anything that they got tied up one of the reasons the be that far carpet thought waters because remember, in the time to honor 1/3 of the tradition going back that they would actually watch her every type of food that it would realize that ignores the whole reasoning that Jesus gave in the passages know you talking about that it is not what your supposed to do you know the passage says that what you eat doesn't defile you consent your heart the files you so the conclusion this is. These are what defile the person with the eat with unwashed hands is not defile anyone to do temple standing or not you try to read these later debates into it it in a way that now ignores the point he was making, which was what Paul reiterates that food in itself. Nothing in itself is unclean. So, meaning that if if you were blindfolded and were being fed and youth you thought it was before it was actually pork. It doesn't actually defile you that that it doesn't spiritually defile so therefore Lauren and Deuteronomy chapter Deuteronomy chapter 11 or Leviticus works, and I believe I'm getting though its greatest 11 and do not ignore lender on equity and not justify like that all they were to be unclean to Israel.

They unclean free. That's with the Texas that's why talking to Jewish people and Paul said that nothing in itself, he's referring to the incentive be sure that nothing itself is actually God can say this is unclean for you and therefore you don't need right now it knows arguing that point right but the point here is the reason that even with unwashed hands doesn't defile is because this is an exterior thing with your hands are washed and not has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of food because food is a spiritual condition. In any case. Please note spiritual condition fine. Jesus is the opposite right. Let's… Read what he says here because what's increasingly clear is esses with all respect and love you on a path that and not too long will just have you what you're ready there. Jesus is another rabbi, but the most important one you've denied other fundamentals. The rest to be denied.

Not long after, and then perhaps you succeed in converting to Orthodox Judaism and fully pasta size. I watch this for decades and is not.

It's a sad thing. It's a tragic thing, but I wanted for decades in the past is always the same.

So ultimately rabbinic tradition is the lens through which everything is read and interpreted, to the point that either Yeshua is no longer who the Bible says he is or he's abandoned entirely but little winter doing how are you divorce Yeshua so much from the Jewish people that need all the longer be is no longer Jewish.

I did I've done the opposite. For decades, there are there are two separate him from from his Jewishness in the messianic community which is quite quite upsetting to me in the fun they don't feel that there is a larger context there when I was going in seminary, I was given a book called biblical hermeneutics. But you have to read everything and in its proper context and part of that was a logical historical interpretation of Scripture you have to read it as the readers would have read it.

I have understood it, not that time.

View the bids were going on and though be be. The question is regarding the youth topics are coming up youth speaking in a contact and you have to understand the content understand what he is talking about. On the other thing is that we have two options that we can. We can either choose the church tradition which interpret Scripture in and out and sometimes anti-medically and weak or we can follow the Jewish traditions and understanding. There is no solace of Torah, both of Torah honors condemned partially by the New Testament and also there is no basis but there is no actual cost of Torah. They were so poor we are denying basic facts in the how we interpret Scripture right so once again, is the author of the book, the real kosher Jesus. Some of his devoted decades to studying Jewish background to the New Testament and works with top scholars, messianic Jews and Christians who are constantly looking at Yeshua in the first century Jewish context and with many, many messianic Jewish friends who are Torah observant and lighted spirit more than in light of rabbinic tradition. I remind you of the principle of what Yeshua said it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person. But what comes out of the mouth that defiles a person.

Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is expelled. That's what doesn't the file but what comes out of the mouth, proceeds from the heart in this defiles the person the employees making point is that the handwashing thing. Whatever the reason was this place. It was misplaced in this one disciples didn't do it. It is misunderstood, was actually have we come back to give me your number one best scriptural argument for leaving views follow rabbinic tradition.

The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown is Isaiah 12 neutral water wells of salvation Michael Brown on Thursday through Thursday 812 more about the number will be getting two calls. If you been on hold. My apologies, but you can post your question about a half-hour little less on our YouTube chat.

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I will get into a debate about so the scriptural I feel confident I can make that to be just based on Scripture but David going out one segment left. Give me your your single best verse that that you are convinced obligates Jewish followers of Jesus to submit to all ongoing rabbinic authoritative rabbinic tradition. To this day of the best one is Matthew 23 verse two McCarthy fit on feet of Moses do they do don't do they say do they say don't do they do hang onto coat that accurately I mix I mix it up do as they Matthew 23 to I'm sure you're familiar with the euro doubting your book and yell you before you left out the scribes subscribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat something observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do, they preach, but do not practice the type heavy birds, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders within themselves and not willing to move them with their finger right so go ahead, you can explicate that for a couple minutes sure if it were to remain in and it Matthew EEE give the. That is whatever you loose and not innate in it that whatever you loose in heaven will elute will whatever you loose on earth we live in heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, traditionally at the display of in of binding and loosing the idea of dumping of motor is permitted of something of the author.

Prohibited men three going through any of doing that and so you telling us to listen to what the car thief. Diane though what art is recorded and followed him and later on toward the chocolate traditions passed down till he got to the rabbi meant that we should do it if I am in fact in Matthew 23 in the middle of the love that you call them Matthew 23. Where 23 I got the wrong address for that Matthew 2323 of the lawyer Torah scholars and further you cover could you tithe mint doing cooling you to have neglected the weightier matters of Torah justice and mercy and faithfulness of method it is necessary to do these things without neglecting the other filter media show is really about making sure that you have the character development that matches the keeping of the Torah that they are both equally important and we know that Matthew 2323 wouldn't talk about hiding Mendonca: a net of 49 and the 50th listed as a home and he says do not neglect the weight view of all matters of the law for the for the heavier matters of the dark character development, and though for me. We should be looking out the Torah and doing it with the with the and a credible stringent the list with the Matthew 2023 at hiding Mendonca Lynn but also having our character are transformed by Yeshua to bring up boat into a closer and right relationship with God. So another words the. The key leaders of his generation within the forerunners of those who develop Mishnah Talmud law codes that they were passing on right traditions that should be followed. But they themselves were damnable hypocrites. Hence the seven woes and their example should not be followed, correct, right. So the issue is with hypocrisy and that occurs in every ligament curling Christianity incurred injury of Manker than that of Islamic art and occurs in very much any time or you have a religion. You will have some form of hypocrisy at the mall they given that that will happen by itself so that topography opposite of what Paul said solemnly the way follow the Messiah in his first 2011 one or Philippians 49 would have you seen learning the do or Hebrews 13 75 example of your leaders so where is Mishnah Talmud are constantly telling you follow the example of the rabbinic leaders follow the example of the Pharisee forebears.

Jesus is saying the opposite of that dumb father example because there but you hypocrites do what they do or do they say not do it.

They do arm so you have fundamentally undermined the entire history of Jewish tradition which is based on the character of those passing on the traditions and if there the trade-ins rejected the person's moral character that was considered a fundamental violation of Torah didn't matter how much they learned how much the new the and and how accurately they were passing things down.

They have now undermined their status in the Jewish community by being moral hypocrites.

So what you're so what you're saying.

I don't know if it's this revelation to but what you're saying is completely undermining your entire argument that the ones responsible for passing these things on are not.

Example is themselves and in fact this woman account and in himself came in and in the Talmud of EEE even watch the way the rabbi defecate's because it's Torah to do that if everything the way I sex with his wife. The guy hides under the beds like was a storage I gotta find out the right way to do all this that they're supposed be living examples. Paul speaks of the believers being literally living examples and yet you're saying that no there hypocrites and don't father example but do father were on.

I finally contrary to the entire biblical ethic but let me but but we everybody all person fundamentally file that it will again be if we trust the rabbi to preview the Canon of the, the way we trust them for other teaching the well of the reject the icon and of the which was established by the rabbis let me in a week then were really hurt if we accepted them. We are embracing at least something of an honoring of Jewish tradition.

Yet the first thing is I'm not Catholic right then and I fully recognize that God works to history to establish Canon beyond the synagogue beyond the church that the Kaman sectarians as far as we know and understand the recognize the same books of the Bible is the Pharisees and the date they rejected image of God in in in in the, the, the earliest locket documents for two MMT documents from Qumran. The debate between the the Hollis of Qumran versus pharisaic color, and the differences and that the Kaman sectarians rejected pharisaic claims of of tradition, so it it. In any case, you can accept that God works through history, but when you're talking about the validity of altar on saying is the oral Torah itself refutes it that that the oral Torah itself is against your viewpoint, and says that these people should be rejected if they are not exempt is what we preach and and then even more importantly, what we come to is in Matthew 21, and in this is really the crux of the matter that he says to the chief priests and the Pharisees, I tell you the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. Hence, the new leaders in the community or the messianic Jewish leaders who may have Some of the traditions and they had different backgrounds but as Paul writes in Romans seven it is not by the old way of the written code, but the new way of life in the spirit and that that was this the spiritual Holocaust that Yeshua laid out that so separated things. David, I you you I was not aware that you believe in theology, though I categorically rejected but it was taken away from the do nothing I said was taken only on the Pharisees and given to the messianic Jewish leaders. It was late in the matter is not replacement of of the people.

The promises that Israel might remain the same is replacement of the leadership over Israel.

That's what he's talking about there. That's the parable, there is method 21 spiritual leaders of Israel were replaced by the apostles is no wonder that anything either. This is talking about that you whatever you are prohibited on earth will be prohibited in heaven. Whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in evidence of the passing on of that idea. You say that it has to be subject to the law of Moses in the system that Moses established with your throne, and chapter 18 right.and then becoming created at the church there and those are messianic Jews. He's talking to their David the messianic Jews. He's talking to, not the Pharisees he's now giving the authority to them and that's why they operate outside of the authorities rabbinic community and that's why we knows the messages continued.

They were put out by the rabbinic community and often rejected by the church as well.

I'm all for messianic Jews living as Jews, for messianic Jews honoring Torah in the life of the spirit, for messianic using hand. These traditions are beautiful to me and I enjoy doing them in categories against Miss and you sitting there obligated to file rabbinic tradition David as someone who has your underwriting embraced apostate beliefs. I pray that God would give you spirit of repentance before it's too late. Please my friend hear me. You asked to come on the air.

I'm more agreeing to align right if you're on may the Lord bring you real teshuvah you wife community to the fullness of faith. Another program powered by the Truth Network