"What Do You Even Say?"

Speaking of angry we got we got some going on the Truth Network.

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Last seven days following the burial. Why is that important. Well that's why asked longtime friend Eric Walker, Rabbi Eric Walker's messianic rabbi. I've been a regular participant on his show for four years at the end of every month we did a whole thing for caregivers is called igniting a nation. He's the leader that organizations amazing teacher of Scripture and understanding God's provision in these things and wait maybe that you and I haven't thought of before. And so I wanted to invite them on to talk about this and introduce him to you all and hopefully this will turn into be a series of conversations we have if time permits with him so Eric welcome to the show were glad to have you with us.

You're always honor to be with you as you and I spent 4 1/4 years together until it bounced radio together. It's such a large issue affecting so many people that it probably is the single largest issue facing the largest number of Americans on the day-to-day basins and the coverage that it gets the conversations that I had regarding it seems to be almost a taboo word almost seems to be like you know I have pretty and I feel sorry for the people that are going through this and but for the grace of God there go I, and there's really not a lot of words of encouragement. People are ill-equipped to know what to say due to how to lend a hand.

Corporately I don't think that we develop the kind of programs with in denominational Christianity to assist and come alongside the caregiver in ways that we've done in many other areas and you and I having this conversation brings biblical focus to the problem and to resolve and help bring understanding and compassion to those who are affected by caregiving and those who are observers. Those who know somebody who's a caregiver and hopefully the awareness is raised, for they will become more sensitive, more helpful and understand really the plate of the caregiver in terms that will educate and illuminate topic that affects 65 million Americans. I've come to understand we as caregivers may have unique circumstances or task involved in our challenges with our loved one who is dealing with impairments, but on a heart level on a soul level at a core level. Everything we deal with is common to the human condition you its fierce obligations guilty its despairs, rages, resentment is are all common to the human condition. We may live with it on a nuclear level, if you will wear it sometimes relentlessly just just doesn't go away, but the good news is is that all of those things are covered clearly and in depth in Scripture by those things. I mean those things that are common to us as caregivers, we have to learn specific task, but once we learn him. We got we don't have to keep repeating the learning process.

We understand we move on. For example, giving an injection I did learn how to give injections in music school and my hands are pretty steady as a pianist, but holding a hypodermic needle is a much different thing. So as you can imagine, I was pretty nervous the first of had to do this for Gracie, but I've done this now for many times over, over many years so not that nervous about anymore.

I got it right but the stuff that we deal with on a soul level on the heart level we keep revisiting those things and that's what brings me to my conversation here today with you.

The issue I'd like to take on with you today.

Eric is grief and mourning and I am convinced that as caregivers that's a part of our journey is learning how to grieve and a healthier manner to grieve with others in a healthy manner to receive others in our grief in a healthier manner. So much to take some time to talk about the listless go deep into grieving and morning from the biblical viewpoint, Jesus himself was a man acquainted with sorrow and grief.

Scripture says, but as many people do they they often launch into the book of Job when it comes as a sort of thing somewhat you to take us there and unpack some of this for us as we examine the book of Job. One of things we sing is when his friends spoke. It was the wise counsel wasn't in alignment with the will of God.

As a matter fact it was really if I friends like that I would want them but when they finally perceived the depth of his grief. They then displayed ungodly representation of being present and not speaking and in that presence and not resting on their own words that takes me to Isaiah the first five chapters of Isaiah. Isaiah is a phenomenal preacher resolve product when it comes to Isaiah 6 and he comes in the presence of God. He realizes that he's been doing things in his own strength and he is so moved by this that he has taken to his face in front of the Lord and cries out that while I'm a man I'm done, I'm a man of unclean lips, and God takes the coals and burns to his lips and then asked on the question now who should I send. And now that is been refined by the refiners fire is now able to be a messenger of God, not just a good preacher is these friends gathered with Job, not in their advice and their opinions, but just their presence in the seven day period became a period of silence and they sat there only to offer their support and had no words, if Job wanted to speak she could initiate a conversation.

But just the fact that they were present with him established a pattern that says that those who are morning, how they process. Has to be on an individual level and there is no guidance. There's no words I can't bring back your loved one, no matter what I say to you, it is not going to be the right thing. I may satisfy myself and having eloquence soliloquy to tell you to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, or they finally receive their healing and none of that brings comfort to the grieving at the way that seven days still continues today. From what I understand, because sitting Shiva and sitting Shiva is a part of this morning process and the process begins. Even with upon the death in Judaism. We bury within three days that we don't have these lengthy embalming and than 10 days later seven days later you're in the ground as quickly as you can possibly be, and it is done in a simple pine box is not ornate is into the ground as tradition says for us to do is to traditionally not involved because Leviticus 1711 says polite things in the blood and so if you take the lifeblood out of the body. Then when you go to resurrect the body.

There is no lifeblood.

It so are you record resurrecting formaldehyde know what happens as the body goes in the complete decay.

We know that the London of able cried out from the ground so there's a line in the blood and so this is become incorporated as part of the Jewish tradition, the tradition we do not involved unless there is a legal requirement misstate the requires embalming we don't embalm that was an Egyptian. So the reason why Joseph was involved was because they wanted is pretty want to be preserved to be able to have his bones carried the promised land, but only look at this seven day period.

What happens is is that you have a funeral service. Like any funeral service. I preach my father's funeral service of the gathering and then there's a professional processional to the graveside. We bury always facing the east and is always facing east towards Jerusalem or whatever part of the Lord grant whatever direction Jerusalem is because of Ezekiel 43, the Lord will return when he breaks in the eastern sky. So the body is to be raised up. The eyes are constantly looking to the skies, even in death, for the resurrection of the dead. So even wherever the headstone is placed. It doesn't matter ahead is always position the facing towards Jerusalem looking for the Messiah as part of the tradition at the graveside. As you begin to exit this table with your water and you take the picture to handle picture.

So my right hand rinses my left and my left hand rinses my right hand so not cross contaminating and I washed death off my hands. I don't take a trip in the cemetery back into the home. When I come to the home of the Marie I find another picture there to remove any remains too sick to handle picture that I used to wash my hands that I will death into the home for the ultrareligious. They cover all mirrors and pictures so there is no reflection of what you have lost. Then there's a period in which the bereaved is set by a family member in a central location may be their favorite chair, or the caliphs in the living room where people can come and pay their respects, and the way they pay their respects is the come they stand there. They take the hand of the will on his bereaved and they say nothing talking with Missy and Eric grieving and morning. This is hope for the caregiver. This is Peter Rosenberg overweight will be right back in caregiver this Rosenberg will talk with Missy had a graphite Eric and were talking about concept of Shiva, which is morning. In the sitting Shiva you've heard that in Judaism does that same concept of being with people in their grief applied to assist family caregivers before wood to the break we talked about just the importance of just being with someone, not things of not initiating something just being quiet and being still.

Eric took a little bit more about that. If we look at the Exodus and we see what happened with the pillar of cloud that went before the Israelites taken them in lighting the way the red state. When the pillar of cloud moved from the front to the back and illuminated the Israelites from the front and The Egyptians in darkness, the people began to grumble and complain and Moses looked at them and said standstill and the quiet standstill and be quiet now we know the passage be still and know that I am God.

The only time we can have full confidence in God's will more still enough to be able to receive an outpouring of his grace and his mercy and his love when a human being breaks that silence and consider this bereaved unders trowel of the Holy Spirit enveloped the Holy Spirit. If I break that if I intruded upon that, then I'm speaking out of turn. God is the protector God is the covering is what we call the cook for the covering and as the covering out of respect for the presence of God, who is ministering to the Marie who am I to speak and interrupt what God is trying to do now. I may be a very close friend to that person and I may be honoring Darrell them with great stories of great comfort and humor. But this is not the time for if they want to speak, they speak our presence is made known the most comforting thing you can do is take a person's hand in your hand.

Your hand over their hand and cover it to just say I am with you pay your respects and you move on. This goes on for week seven days of people receiving the numbers.

Of course, on the day of the funeral are the greatest, but the family attends to the bereaved. They prepare meals they bring food and they received people of the numbers began to dwindle as we go through that seven-day morning.

What's happening the mind of the bully people leave that evening and there left alone. Maybe they have a son or a daughter that chooses to stay with them, but ofttimes it's not very trying on life without this level. One. And this is a troubling time. This is a time where the mind goes to that place of despair. So the next day you need that reassurance that you're not alone and still for seven days. That reassurance is given to that person. After a week you feel like you're not alone. You've had plenty of people of common John you love and showing the respect and maybe then you want to talk a little bit. Maybe then you want to start making plans for what we can do with dad's close or with my wife's clothing. What how you divide the stop that maybe that conversation starts with the seven days is kind of a window is an island in time. It's very much like the Sabbath. You know what God in the creation of 14 verses creation.

Each of the first six days instead of the evening and then it was morning and it was the first day in the second day after day one came to the seven day he didn't put a timeframe on it just says on the seventh day he ceased from work and rested doesn't say that it was evening.

It was morning on the seventh day was to be an island in time and so imagine being in this island of time for seven days. The time of creation. The time of completion seven is the number of completion set the end of the seven days you have rested in the comfort of the Lord. Psalm 91 dwells. This is that dwelling they have the presence of the Lord right there and family and friends of come to pay the respects, it begins to dwindle down to very close family and break) and finally, after that seven days is over now life begins to return but yet we take an entire year and were in Christianity you might marry somebody and have a headstone waiting for the legal order at the time and it's now prepared and placed them in her grave has a headstone in Judaism. We don't do that, we place the headstone of one year on the anniversary of the death and there are no flowers in the Jewish funeral. Why, because the grass withers and the flowers fade with the word of the Lord knows forever. And so we don't have a dying presence of flowers which will wilt and die.

And when we visit the grave. We do not leave flowers at the grave, because that's not a lasting memorial.

What we do replaces stone on the headstone look around the grave area we find a rock and replace with their and the wind doesn't blow it off. The rain doesn't blow it off and it's assigned that this person mattered and it's in moral talking with Missy in a grid by Eric were discussing the concept of grief morning from the biblical perspective.

How do the principles that are centuries and millennia old we use in Judaism way back before the time of Christ himself would been familiar with how those things apply to us today. How can we as is there a correlation is there Italian these things into our life today when you talk more about that with Rabbi Eric of igniting the nation to visit his website and adding a nation.calm to learn more about him the ministry that he has that is literally speed Roseburg. This is an a family can days that I was racing with Jr's 60 resilient and you like to hear an initial neglect report doing hope for the caregiver.com. Any donation of an event will cede you copy the CD at the confided very meaningful hope for the caregiver.were talking with Rabbi Eric Walker messianic River Eric Walker were discussing the concept of Shiva. What is this mean this is the way that grief is observed for the bereaved in the Jewish culture. This been going on for thousands of years. He can go back and look at it. The first instance of of reading about this is an Job 213 and after the loveless past family members and friends come in and sit with they don't engage unless they are responding to something that the brief says they don't initiate Jesus himself would've been familiar with this and were told how this applies to the family caregiver and that's what will the pivot to talking about those who are grieving. They have no service. There is no funeral service, but there grieving the loss of their loved one who is no longer able to engage because of Alzheimer's or other similar types of afflictions or special needs family going through the trauma and the loss of knowing that this child is going to grow up with much different expectations of their life and they would've had for child all those kinds of things way into the world of the family caregiver they're going through grief and they need to process that grief and have it respected and in a way that's tangible, meaningful, and that's what brings us to our conversation, they can we take the same principles and learn how to engage those who are grieving and morning and allow it to be process in a healthier manner. Can we reflect Christ's compassion in this.

If you've logged any kind of time in this world is a caregiver. You've heard the platitudes in the trite comments that people make unsolicited like will God's obviously got up later she would be here with thank you Capt. obvious or there in a better place leader that comes to you've heard this were people try to offer what they think is comfort, but I think we can go deeper and I think we we must go deeper into this and that's where I go to Scripture and so wanted to get Rabbi Walker to just spend some time and unpack this of what of what Scripture says to this and how we as believers can respond to other people who were going through great trauma and heartache and loss. Maybe not in a funeral since maybe not with the passing of level, but certainly have to watch the suffering and the angst and the heartache, and so thank you Eric very much talked about this a little bit Jesus is pattern was to never assume anything. Even the obvious, the paralytic is lower through the roof obviously cannot walk. He's been in this condition for a very long time. And Jesus doesn't say well it's obvious this man needs healing. I'm just going to kill him.

He asked him what do you want one man says I want to walk instead. Take your ballot go get up. The only grief that I've ever really known from a morning perspective other than this, the regular traumas of life. My father passed. This is a man that I never had a conversation with my life and never had a conversation with. I left home at 14 graduate high school at 16, went off to college. When the corporate world never had a conversation with my life and way past the… In hospice. They had their base. They called me to release them to die slowly.

The only time I ever really spoke to him and he was in a coma and my mother asked me to preach this funeral and I didn't shed a tear.

I didn't mourn the loss of my father.

What I came to grips with was that I was in morning, but I was in morning because I had lost any opportunity never have the father that Mark different kind of morning but it's very terrible to the morning of. I'm never going to have a child. This can be a little walk and never have a child that's ever been and be able to take care of himself. I'm never going to have the ability to go out dancing with grace to your run a marathon with her restrictions things that we grieve in the language there very personal but because Jesus was a man was from a list sorrows, and because he asked what it was that people wanted he was able to give them what they want.

I think that it has to do with relationship with God. What do I want while I want my daughter to walk.

I want my daughter yes you want that pain but that may change.

I believe in the power grab the power miracle, but in the meantime while we wait, how to we how we deal with that. How do we offer comfort. How do we minister the Bible shows as a pattern is for us to actively ask what you want what you need.

How can I help you.

What can I do to support you and Steve need a couple of hours to take a break to. You need somebody to run an errand for in so many situations I say they have these online people providing meals for a period of time then that goes away after some specified. Some arbitrary period of time, but in these permanent situations where you're dealing with caregiving on a full-time basis. There are ongoing needs that are ongoing as you have talked about that healthy caregiver is a benefit to the person giving care to, but a healthy caregiver is a detriment to the person occurring for circle back to something you said earlier about putting your hand on top of someone else's. Just hold your hand and putting your other hand on top of theirs just to be with and it reminded me of that event windows with Gracie. We watch something on television. They were showing somebody running some kind of marathon or something and her eyes filled with tears and she said I wish I could run again. She's to be run before her accident. At that point through their life Scriptures come to mind. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength they should met up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not grow weary, and I could say all kinds of things. It wasn't the time to say that it was just the time of the resort. I just put my hand on hers and I sit on in a letter, grieve it out and try to get out of the way. There were times in the past I tried to, you know hope director, because her grief was so great that she endured these various losses that she's had to go over period of time, legs, and so forth that I would try to steer it and that she was unable to process that grief out appropriately and am learning to respect the trauma respect the grief and and I want to see if that can translate to assist caregivers where other people can learn to respect our grief, our trump and not try to assuage it or make it better or put out a nice boat wanted to let it be what is going to be this year marks the 38th anniversary of Gracie's car accident.

She's been hurt for 38 years wasn't number significant Scripture refers to the guy at the pool who been there 38 years and then Scripture repeats the sentiment of insane he'd been there a long time.

So even Scripture recognize that it was a long time to be there.

It is one of those moments for me that Scripture seems to just verify the plight that seminarian and give it respect and give it credence 38 years was a long time.

Just a long time and I look at my wife and I think 30 years is a long time and you can't just glibly gloss over that you have to give it respect will 35 years of in her caregiver for 35 years.

That's a long time and ended and it takes time to process out that grief it takes understanding from people to help me do it from clergy from counselors and so forth, and is the same way with all my fellow caregiver suite. We deserve to have trauma.

They would live with respected and help us grief through this in a healthier manner. Talk a little bit about that delve into that Scripture brings clarity to this God says in his presence is fullness of joy. He is in the things of an actual reveals the natural thing and so in our presence of making sure we visit making sure we check in making sure we make ourselves known to those who care about that. There becomes a certain comfort and I think that what you're describing is that in building a relationship with the caregiver and showing them that you can be present will then open up the opportunity because the trust compassion and presence to allow for more dialogue. I have wept when people wept. I rejoice when people have rejoiced.

Imagine becoming that kind of friend that you can week together that you get a piece of news are you get frustrated just because this is, is this ever going to end. And if I wish you would and I'm basically saying like the prodigal son to his father was your dad. The only way this this infirmity is can be healed and be over as a death, and so anytime you entertain that wish I wish this was over here basically saying I was. This person would die. And that's not what your heart is you want the condition of the dominant one person resort but some of these conditions are not fixable. There only sustainable or some minor improvements adjustments but it's not on the way we have to go closer together. We have to be transparent part of our transparencies being quiet is to not have the answers were so prone to know what's best for someone else but if I were to come visit you on a regular basis and that barrier starts to drop and I catch you at a moment when you are vulnerable and you're able to open up the greatest gift I can ever give you is a listening ear. I don't have anything to say. I only have ears and wish to receive an elective pour out the free to express yourself and then I give you a hug.

Then during that I take your hand and they just let you know on the desire can't fix it but it's okay God says I'll never leave you or forsake you. For true friend says no greater gift in this than for one man to lay down his life for another. What if I don't get to the ballgame of I don't get another event that I stop by the sleeping just to check in on him in my steaming him more than myself and my making my presence known that I become a trusted friend that I am an eager, faithful and trustworthy when you're ready to talk, and that's the whole concept of is that if the Marie Constable Tom, it's up to then initiate is not permitted is not for me to offer and just to me that this is over.

The caregiver dispute Roseburg were to whomever will be right caregiver and Peter is talking with Missy Eric talk about grief morning is the recent wanted to introduce this this part of the hopefully a series it will be able to do to address this issue because I believe is family caregivers.

The part of our journey to healthiness is learning and experiencing morning a healthy manner week we got her to grieve with, and I know that sales diagnosis was that much of a pathway to anything. I think it is. I think it's a pathway to us accepting what is going on and grieving it out appropriately with hopefully the help of clergy and counselors interested friends but they gotta have the vocabulary think I have the understanding of what that looks like. If you've watched suffragan trauma on a regular basis as a caregiver. I promise you there is grief and mourning in you that needs to come out. The Scripture says blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted. We are invited to comfort one another with the same comfort that we ourselves have received from the God of all comfort pulses in Corinthians, but it's hard to comfort others. If we try to impose what we think is comforting to them and sometimes it starts with just sitting and just being and respecting the grief and the trauma that the other person is feeling and being with the building that relationship of trust so that they can feel free then to grieve this out and receive that comfort in the process. Eric close us out with this and and again I thank you for addressing this issue. I can't tell you this that there is nothing you can do to ever make God stop loving you guys not punishing you stop because the uniquely selected you because he trusted you with this assignment and all these platitudes that we give to people and say that you noted God must trust you so much to have given you, and one awesome responsibility in the silly things we try to stay to uplift you don't need to hear that know I have heard it, but I still need to hear your right you don't need to hear what you need to hear is that when your heart is heavy that you can pick up the phone you call me at 3 o'clock in the morning and I will answer the phone and say what's going on and that's the only thing that will come out of my mouth and you are talking you'll cry and I will cry with you, and I would just tell you will close in order prior.

I have no opinion to offer you got a chance to voice and everything that is hidden in darkness. It's brought up to the light that allows you to bring it out into the open, it loses a lot of its magnitude a lot of its heaviness because you been able to share if you know you have somebody you can openly and honestly share with it's going to listen then you have a friend and support system that is just like God on earth being the ears of Messiah, and she will always talk at the hands and feet of Messiah would never talk about the ears of Messiah.

Messiah listens to us and us trying to be his hands and feet.

Maybe you're better off being his ears and stop trying so hard to do and just be present and listen. You have often said that this process of caring for one another like this is akin to holding someone's hair while they throw up, and only regret coming to be graphic or crass but that's a real-life picture of what it looks like to care for people. It has to happen. The grief has to come out.

These things have to come out and we minister to one another as it happens, were going to grieve. That's a given that we grieving will and are we helping others do the same.

Do we understand that as believers, that we are not grieving as those who have no hope.

That's the whole point of this doesn't mean that we will have tears we don't have to have tears of rage and despair, we can have healthier tears and process this grief that we have that is deep in our hearts in an inappropriate manner. In a healthy manner and hopefully then offer that same comfort to others as we receive that comfort from the God of all comfort. Eric, I really appreciate you being here with me today with good people to get in touch with you. It is igniting a nation where was the best way to do that igniting nation.com and YouTube both on their imagination. You just got our channel type, and Peter Rosenberger and every one of our Apostol's local right up there and watch Oliver igniting nation.com. Take a look, you don't go through stuff. Let's go through it equipped and well-prepared and I think you'll find this fast elaborated about Eric Walker has will indeed help equip you.

Inside was going on in the world today. Typically, the least and also right here at home in her own heart deal with her life dispute Roseburg this and hopefully kick, this is John Butler and I produce hope for the caregiver with Peter Rosenberger. Some of you know the remarkable story of Peter's wife Gracie and recently Peter talk to Gracie about all the wonderful things that emerge from her difficult journey. Take a listen Gracie. When you envision doing a prosthetic limb outreach. Did you ever think that inmates would help you do that, not in a million years. When you go to the facility run by core civic and you see that faces of these inmates that are working on prosthetic limbs that you have helped collect from all of the country that you put out the plea for and their disassembly sell these legs like what you have your own prosody and arms and arms everything when you see all this. What is the duty makes me cry because I see the smiles on their faces and I know I know what it is to me like someplace where you can't get out without somebody else allowing you to get out course, being in the hospital so much and so long and so that these men are so glad that they get to be doing as as one man said something good family with my hands. Did you know before you became an amputee that parts of prosthetic limbs could be recycled now had no idea and I thought a peg leg.

I thought of wooden legs. I never thought of titanium and carbon legs and flex the sea legs and all that. I never thought about that as you watch these inmates participate in something like this, knowing that there there helping other people to walk the providing the means for the supplies to get over there.

What is it do to you. Just on the heart level. I wish I could explain to the world. What I see in here and I wish that I could be able to go and say the this guy right here Denise go to Africa with that. I never not feel that way out every time you know you always make me have to leave. I don't want to leave them.

I feel like I'm at home with them and I feel like that we have a common bond that would've never expected that only God could put together.

Now that you've had experience with it what you think of the faith-based programs. The core civic offers. I think they're just absolutely awesome and I think every prison out there should have faith-based programs like this because the return rate at the man that are involved in this particular faith-based program and other ones like it, but I know about this one are. It is just an amazingly low rate compared to those who don't happen and I think that says so much that has anything to do with me just has something to do with God using somebody broken to help other broken people.

If people want to donate a use prosthetic limbs, whether from a loved one who passed away or you know somebody well groomed. You've donated some of your own for the did it have it out of the do that please go to standing with hope.com/recycle staining with hope.com/recycle backspace