Holding on to the Hope of Heaven

With all that's happening in the world you may be looking for ways to both entertain and encourage your family. We like to help you do just that by giving you a four week free trial of the adventures in Odyssey club you can find our catalog of nearly 900 adventures in Odyssey programs.

These exciting episodes are a great way to keep your family connected to God's truth as you navigate through significant and unexpected changes to your normal day-to-day life. So go to a I/O club.org and get started on your free trial of the adventures in Odyssey club through the eyes of these people. God's given us the gift of truly being able to imagine what the Bible told us all along. In a way that doesn't just make your heart fall in love with God so much more I want to do everything you can do to please him because you're just in all of the love and the goodness and the kindness of God, and that's what I hope people focus on most that's John Burke he's our guest today on Focus on the Family your hostess pokes president Dr. Jim Daly and I'm John Fuller you John add so much has been going on in our country and our world. Because of this coronavirus people are discouraged or stressed out there afraid maybe in some cases there desperately seeking for peace and what does this mean and it does begin to alert you to the fact that you're not going to be here forever and I don't know what's going to take you out but I will guarantee you something well in this life that hopefully 80 9010 whatever you live to God's got a plan for that transition moment he knows every day that you're to be on this earth and we need to trust in that, as Christians, now the apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament, in Romans 818 for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us and it's in that spirit that I wanted our guest today to come on at Jean and I have read a great book that is written called imagine heaven and it really opens up our mind to what heaven is going to be like, and I know some people don't have questions working to get into it in just a minute and John Burke is our guest. As I said, he is a pastor.

He is the founder of Gateway church in Austin Texas and has written this book.

Imagine heaven it debuted.

Interestingly, on the New York Times bestseller list and Jim. This is one of those opportunities were you said team. I want to do this and here we are glad to have John with us look so fun and our executive producer Rob Kirkpatrick and I talked to him about it he got the ball rolling and that I think it was Ashley our other producer who got into this with the John himself, it started with Jean and I listening to the audiobook. Just about every night. The last couple months and Jean is with me in the studio.

Jean is great to have you here all thinking I'm really excited to be here for this particular product.

Yeah I know and and then again both of us really encouraged by the book the John let me welcome into the program formally great to have you with us.

No thanks much for having Jim appreciate it yeah and it's great that you know in so many ways you have spent 35 years compiling near-death experiences may be a good place to start for the listeners what defines a near-death experience. What is it yeah what I try to focus on were the ones that were someone clinically died.

You know they had a heart attack, your heart stopped beating. Maybe in a car accident. There different things that cause it, but heart stops beating brain waves sees and yet they are resuscitated, sometimes a few minutes after sometimes 30 minutes. Sometimes an hour and 45 minutes even and they come back talking about the experience of the life to come, that they say consistently was more real than this life. It's amazing. I want to make sure to your background. I mean you are a skeptic of Christianity, but in doing this work over the last 35 years.

It played a significant role in you coming to accept Christ right yeah absolutely so I was an agnostic, I didn't know if I believed in God. I thought Jesus was just probably a good teacher. You know, blown up into something he wasn't. I didn't know if there was an afterthought.

I didn't really care and the my dad got cancer and someone gave him the first book that was the original research that coined the term near-death experience and I read it in one night us on his nightstand and so many of them talked about seeing God is God of light and love and Jesus that I said oh my gosh this God Jesus stuff may be real and if it is, there's nothing more important and I have since gone from a career in engineering so I'm analytically science minded. That's the way my mind is wired, but I went from that into ministry.

I was a missionary for number years with the seminary and then my wife Kathy and I started Gateway church 22 years ago here in Austin but for the last 30 years I have been curious, what are those experiences people have, and more importantly, how do they align with what the Scripture says eventually I've studied over a thousand of them and started to see commonalities and started to see the alignment and found which will talk about some interpretive keys and I would imagine heaven really for two reasons one to show skeptics like I was there is verifiable evidence for this. But secondly, to show how much it aligns with what the Old Testament prophets and Jesus have said in the Bible along when it's so good a in this is the you know it's kind of tricky and some people are very skeptical even in the church, maybe especially in the church because they want to be careful that things are texturally accurate. You know that this is not some kind of moment that the enemy can play on this and that kind of thing and I think in that regard. How do you approach these things. It know maybe we need to be a little flexible with the idea that we are going to go to heaven. That is the hope that it is good to be a place of tremendous love that were going to feel the presence of God I meet. It's almost that weird thing and as Christians we want this. And then when somebody says I was there for 10 minutes it's going to be awesome. They were you're really there. I don't know if you're really there. Talk about that dichotomy. Yeah why I think it's very important that we address it because in the Gallup poll found that 1/25 Americans has had these experiences that night.

The Wrightstown that yeah extraordinary that against the listeners grab it over 13 million Americans have had one of these experiences and by the way surveys done in Europe.

I found the same time about same percentage so high note fork for the Christian. I think this is really really important. Sometimes we reject and push away things we don't understand without asking the hard questions and trying to wrestle through the mystery of it.

I think at the same time I am skeptical of any one of these experiences and I think it's very important to realize that all of them or interpreting an experience that is truly out of this world the way I like to describe it is. Imagine if this entire experience wheat we live in three dimensions of space. One dimension of time, so four dimensions.

Imagine if our entire experience is being lived on a flat black-and-white painting on the wall right deafening separation right are our soul is separated from our physical body. So imagine your ripped off that flat two-dimensional black-and-white photo and you come out into a three dimensional reality of this room that was all around you all the time. You just couldn't even fathom. If you didn't have 1/3 dimension in this color and then imagine being pressed back into the flat black-and-white photo and you have to describe color and three dimensions in two-dimensional black-and-white terms. Yeah that I'm convinced is what people are trying to do. Let's get to it and talk about these common features of the stories that you collected and their generally common amongst all near-death experiences. What are those common denominators that you found in your research.

Yes, maybe just taking through it when people die they say that they leave their body. But they have a spiritual body. And they talk about how it's they don't even realize they're not themselves. In fact they feel more themselves more alive than they've ever felt before, and not just five senses. They say more like 50 senses and they have arms, legs, you know they can be work were ourselves.

It's life abundant. But here's the thing is that initially they say they many of them are in the room still where they're being resuscitated.

Then they say they travel, and it's a little bit different for different people, but some are said to go through skin like a tunnel.

Some it was like a pathway of light summit was like through space and they come to a place of incredible beauty, not unlike Earth, and grass, trees, flowers, mountains, rivers, streams, but they are experiencing it in new dimensions. Like I said engines of time you dimensional space, heightened everything commonly come back and say is that this world is really the shadow of that world. Yeah, and I found that really interesting. In the book that that common theme that heaven is more real than earth that that was repeated over and over. Let me ask you, John at one of the stories and there's many obviously your book is packed with people who went through this experience. One of the early stories in the book talked about. I think a child who you know flat line died on the table, etc. this hospital. They had the experience of being out of their body, but they mentioned to the doctor and the nurse when they brought this person back. This child back that they saw a shoe either in the on the roof of the hospital or in a window I can't remember exactly but the doctor said to the nurse go check that out and sure enough there was a shoe attend issue. If I remember correctly that the child saw in that experience and they found it correct yeah and so there are many experiences like that and this is what convinced many skeptical like I said doctors and all kinds of people. So yes, that was actually when the child that was in the hospital in Seattle. The person left her body. But as they were going up out of the hospital saw the tissue on like the second or third ledge outside the window and they checked it out. Now here's the thing you could say one family. These are urban myth right.

One of the doctors who are cardiologist that I interviewed Dr. Michael save them.

He set out to prove these were myth, so he set out to prove that this can't be true, but after five years of studying it as a cardiologist.

He said what convinced him was so many of them recounting to him what he did during resuscitation. He said I could've taped it and used it to teach physicians and this is what's quite honestly such a shame is that Christians have not spoken into see every good gift from God. The evil ones get to take and try to twist and use it against God.

We know that right right sex is a great gift from God. But if you just look at the way people use it, you know, without seeing God's perspective on it mean right is a lot of damn right right so it's the same with these experiences and unfortunately Christians early on as this research was coming out didn't understand it and said it's a tannic it's I don't know what it is but leave it alone and as a result, many of these people turned away from the church and try to make sense of it in the New Age kind said hey welcome. Come on over here and so many of them got interpreted that way early on but that is not what they say and you know I said a few minutes ago. I'm skeptical about any one of these because it is an interpretation of an experience so they are going to interpret their experience in our you know for dimensional terms based on their own worldview right so I don't necessarily agree with all the interpretations. But when I've looked at over a thousand of them and what they commonly report. It's amazing how it lines up with the Scriptures. This is what the Bible is been telling us all along. It's incredibly blessed that revelation.

I think when you look at the book of Revelation. In fact I looked at that Scripture this morning that they overcame the evil one him by the blood of the Lamb and the power of their testimony, and in this context that's kind of what you've compiled her people's testimonies of what they saw what they experienced in that five-minute 10 minute hour even hour and 1/2 situation where they have passed away and I think we have to have an ear for that and that's why I wanted to have you honestly let people know. Think about this. Hopefully though read your book in the you know be challenged a little bit. Well John and I would say I was a skeptic and I have a science background. So what I've really appreciated about your book is the research and that you have tried to compile only near-death experiences from people that you felt had nothing to gain, and only something to lose by retelling their experiences and mean there are really compelling stories in here. I'm convinced yeah I mean you know I've interviewed surgeons commercial airline pilots pastors multiple pastors, bank presidents, any college professors. These are people who have nothing to gain making up these crazy wild stories that do not it's can hurt their career and yet they say it was the most real thing that ever happened. Hey Jon, I we want to get to some of the stories of the people can kinda wow okay that's interesting. I think I'd rather lean on you. I mean, of course, Jean and I read the book you got, George Ritchie, war veteran, but what stories stick out to you that really exemplify what you're trying to capture.

Let's go through two or three of them and just elaborate on them. Well I'll tell you the ones that are the most evidential to me and quite honestly just kinda blow me away are the ones of people who are blind so I write about three people who were blind from birth and imagine heaven and when blind people and doctors who studied this, researchers have studied this have found blind people have the exact same experience they can see and yet when they come back there so blind. But, for instance, Vicki was blind from birth, she died in a car accident. She's up above her body and she's watching them work on her frantically and it takes a while to adjust the site and then she realizes that's me because she had long hair and she could see that she had a ring wedding ring with orange blossoms on it and she said she just felt awesome and she's like why are they so worried this is I'm not working and she was a Christian. She said I know where I'm going and she was like I'm out here and she says she takes off through the roof of the ceiling and goes up and enters what she kinda described as as a tunnel. She comes out in finds herself on grass. Again, this is life is everything of this life plus and so she looks around and their trees, their flowers, there's this vast number of people in this place of tremendous light. Now listen to how these blind people describe the likes of Vicki's and the light was something you could feel as well as see and she said everybody there was made of light.

I was made of light and what the light conveyed was love and love is everywhere. It was like love and light came out of the grass love came out of the birds love came out of the trees was incredible really beautiful and I was overwhelmed by that experience.

I couldn't really imagine what light was like looking at all. That may sound very bizarre to you again until you really look at what the Bible is been telling us all along.

In Isaiah 60 and in Revelation 21 yeah John says they basely say the same thing, but John sees the city of God, and says the city has no need of sun or moon for the glory of God illuminates the city and the Lamb Jesus is its light, and the nations will walk in that light, not think about that. How do people around the globe, and even people who were blind from birth say the same thing about the light of heaven coming out of everything and it's not like like we see it's palpable. It's love and it's life. And yet they are saying exactly what the Bible says the light is the light and life and love of God gets the glory of God which think about that when Paul says the suffering we experience now is nothing compared to the glory will experience that I think are MNEs of the observation you know one point the early world thought the world was flat and you can look at Scripture and realize that it was not the people failed to see it in Scripture it again just evidence of reading the Scripture carefully and then adding it to what people experience a Jon, I do want to ask the question that some have to be thinking about and that is and I note doctors wrote about this, or at least added to it. Those that come back with traumatic effect. Another words they're not experiencing love there experiencing what we in the Christian community would consider at least hellish interpretations speak to the dark side of all this, and what some people experience yes and you asked me kind of the stories that stand out to me.

Some of the people were blind. The others are like Howard storm. He was an atheist college professor. He was taking students on a tour in his lower due addendum ruptures he's taken to the hospital. It's a Saturday. Can't find a doctor to operate on them and he felt the worst he had ever felt in his life.

He thought death is, you know, unplug the computer instead. There's nothing and he passes and he standing there in the room confused because he feels great and he's looking around the room and he notices this body in the bed that they resembled him but it's not computing to him and then people are calling to him from the hallway. The hospital power. You know we're here for you. Come with us, and they seem nice and they end up in this place of utter darkness, just like Jesus talks about the outer darkness where the be weeping and gnashing of teeth. He said, and he start howitzers to realize that they're tricking me. I can't trust them will they turn on them and they mall them. It's like the worst prison scene ever and as this is going on. Something inside him says pray to God and he's fighting with his pride and I don't believe in God. Micah pray to God. But as he started just pieced together anything you could say about God. These people back off and a song comes into his mind. Jesus loves me from when the neighbor took him to church as a kid and he he wants that to be true so much. He cries out Jesus save me and into this outer darkness comes this brilliant light brighter than the sun, just like other in the Eisai hands reach out, pick him up and as he is sobbing like a baby Jesus rubs his back and he says I don't know how I knew but I'm you. He loves me very much. Just the way I was, and Howard comes back after this, and two years later leaves his tenured professorship to become a Christian pastor's wife is still an atheist. She divorces him because she thinks he's gone crazy, but he's been proclaiming the gospel. Jesus ever sense. That's amazing. And Jon, I think that's the point people listing and I get it. Everybody I mean is this really Focus on the Family but the thing that struck me here is again your diligence in the doctors and others who have studied this and the conclusions that you've referenced that there is something what is it and we as Christians should be run into the mountaintop saying this is that this is how it lines up with Scripture. This is why people are having these you know experiences in the way that they describe it. This is what God is saying through them and again going back to Revelation. You know that they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the power of their testimony.

These are powerful testimonies from people who have experienced something, but John, I know someone if not a thousand or more people are going right Jim, I have really thought so highly of you for so long and about and who is this John guy. I mean right here. I think it took me 30 years to write it.

I know that I know what people think and hate. I feel the same way like open this door and all kinda wacky things can come through. Yes, that's true, but God allows that in this world. Why do you think he couldn't change it. No, so we have to be willing to enter into the mass of how people take God's good gifts. And you know skew them or interpret them wrongly, but that's why I put so much scripture in imagine heaven as I wanted people to see this aligns it. In fact, there's nothing that makes sense of it more than seeing how the scriptures align and then help interpret even how some people might misinterpret these experiences yeah well I just I would encourage the skeptic to read this book, I was skeptical you are skeptical of your butt is so compelling when I think that's where we want to be any part of what we do here focus on families, we want to introduce people to Jesus Christ and you know in this situation where we have a pandemic going around the world.

As I started the program. Death is, you know, being thought about in different ways. Right now, in more ways right now and I really wanted people to hear from you John to hear what your research has revealed in the context of Scripture not blindly, and I know there are those skeptics in the church and outside the church, and I think those within the church. They want to be true to the Scripture. They want to make sure that there not pursuing something that is outside of God's will and I get that but I would say is you lined up so many of the Scriptures that reference things that we kinda read and blow right by you know we don't quite understand when Paul says I was lifted up into the third heaven. We don't have context for that. Wow, you're given us context for that what might've happened 14 years ago when Paul was stoned and he made common to both of those things that's a very intriguing thing to think about and I think got John for me today. It was to put in front of people. The idea that yet. As Christians we believe there is an afterlife. These people are tasting it and experiencing it in some way and you've just done the job compiling it and saying I think here is the biblical context for what they're experiencing and I so appreciated. Anything you want to add your defense will yeah Jim, I mean I thought hard about this for decades right. I mean I think you guys felt this, too, and it was what I was trying to put into the book through the eyes of these people. God's given us the gift of truly being able to imagine what the Bible told us all along.

In a way that I'm doesn't just make your heart fall in love with God so much more I want to do everything you can do to please him because you're just in awe of the love and the goodness and the kindness of God, and that's what I hope people focus on most white appreciated and I think the challenge we have is really think of that agnostic or that atheist it's hearing this, you know, they just happen to stumble on the program. Somehow, someway there hearing this, and I would say to you if you're listening, man, this is your moment may be God inspired you to be where you're at. Listening to this right now and what I fear that Howard and were giving you a little something to think about so that if that moment comes for your when it comes for you to be equipped to do something and I hope you would do it now.

That's why were here. We want you to be walking with the Lord introduced to Jesus Christ. That's our goal. That's our first passion here Focus on the Family so don't wait for your near death experience. Live it now. Contact us. Let us introduce you to Christ. Let us give you resources that will help build you. Certainly John's great book. Imagine heaven and I believe I mean if you call us and you are not a believer in Jesus.

I will take care of sending this book to you. I trust other believers will help me do that but get a hold of us. This is what it's about and we want you to know who Jesus Christ is in this life, so your affirmed and confident in the life to come and again John, thank you for the diligence the work that you have done to put this together and again my defense is simply I want people to think about this.

I want believers to have a deeper conviction.

And what I've walked away from it. I think you have two Jane is I am more confident now about what I'm gonna be walking into. I kinda want to go in to heaven like Yahoo just to experience that heightened everything that God has the abundant life that you referenced. That's what organ experience. I want to do that tepidly.

I want God to to just be right there when I'm passing from this life and I want others to have that confidence as well. What an awesome thing to be able to do that absolutely. And he once asked to show that love his to those here a letter absolutely. So again, thank you, John Maximus, Jim, thanks for having me on appreciated and it is Jim who said we are a phone call away love to address your questions.

We have a free little booklet called coming home that we can tell you about explains what it means to become a believer in Christ and also is Jim said we do have the book in stock. Imagine heaven get that from us for your gift of any amount got details about these and other resources in the episode notes or call one 800 the letter a in the word family on behalf of Jim and Jean Bailey and the entire team here at Focus on the Family.

Thanks for joining us today.

I'm John Fuller inviting back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ