Seeing Eye To Eye

Okay date so were living in a culture it's more divided than it's ever been all yeah are you surprised by that. Yeah, in some ways I think one of my surprises would be the division in the church and hostility toward one another is what's been surprising to me. We sit in our own family.

Welcome to family life today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most and will send the Wilson you can find us if we live today.com or on our family life.

This is family life today you know as a pastor and just be a part of the church for three decades.

You would think there be unity on most things. That's a naïve assumption, but it also. It's like we need direction reading guidance.

We need some smart people to help us understand have their dog. Yeah, like PhD's.

Have we ever had to PhD's, besides ourselves. I can hardly contain my joy anticipates how we are PhD's, yet now are they just give not anybody's know the truth is PhD's are not honorary right and we got to me often. Rick linger in our studio and by the way, you guys are laughing over there but I mean to do the work you've done to get a PhD is a real deal. Our lives can attest that I set so we are really in the presence of some real wisdom we've been teasing about that, but we appreciate what you've done. You've written a book called winsome conviction. So walking for life today. It is great to be verified. So much for letting us come and join you guys flew all the way here from selling California to write in this book. I love that I love the subtitle disagreeing without dividing the church so we get to talk about that and especially even dividing our families and our home so Tim and Noreen have been speakers in the family life. We can remember team for what 20 almost €27.27 years. He started speaking. We didn't know anything right on the same page called Longview spoken for, 31 years. This is our interview sure what you think conflict with both you guys read Viola would you know we Tim had us come out a few years ago and through your marriage and what he called his son marriage and relationship and Rex out there as well.

You're in biblical studies that Aryan theologies are my my PhD's in philosophy, but I was a pastor for 20 years back on theology as well and so on.

About 15 years ago I got one from a pastor to being a professor by will do with the integration of faith and learning how her faith in her search to the best of few words. Great thing to do to universally come together to write this book, you, we did a lot of things together actually just by all of them say like well we wrote a book on conflict based on experience working is worked a lot with doing classes and things like that. Or we could talk various classes and one thing we really enjoyed was winking through some of Joan's refacing we wrote an earlier book called winsome persuasion about how we can get to the non-Christian world about conviction coming out of it. We were talking to people as we were talking up a book and people so you know this is a problem is just out there. This is a problem with the church. That's what got us thinking about about Christmas follow book conviction yellow thought about that.

I mean even the title tells you a lot. Winsome conviction so defined that a little bit like convictions winsome. How do we do it because in some ways that's where we get in trouble right we have a conviction and we are not always winsome Americans feel this national survey was done last year 98% of Americans think about that time, we don't agree on anything. 98% of Americans will say instability is a problem in our country. 68% say it's a crisis levels and 42% say I do not feel safe sharing my perspective about politics, immigration, whatever publicly now we all hear that and say what. Of course, when non-Christians talk of course, instabilities would be a big issue but it has absolutely come to the church.

I know a Christian who loves the Lord is in full-time Christian ministry, and we had to hang up on the phone because it just got heated and we finally just agreed to cut it off which is a good note, technically known marriages. Let's let's call timeout yeah and we needed to do that, but that's why we wrote the book, and Rex been a pastor for 20 years. You guys are working the church. I was an interim teaching pastor for two years at two different churches and I got a chance to dip my big toe and and I was shocked. Dave just like you not that the arguments would be there, but the intensity and I'm not even talking to anymore. We cross paths going to church. We've got to address that right yeah and what we've experienced in a in is what you're just saying is there are there are topics that we don't bring up in our family.

I'm seriously just avoid yeah because that's like were to hang up the phone or working have to walk out the room because we we've gone there enough times to know it doesn't end well and so I pick up your book Winsome conviction Mike maybe were doing this wrong maybe were not winsome. Maybe it's, you know, of course, we think it's their fault it's gotta be their fault but maybe it's our fault.

So help us understand that because that is too common. We were hang up the phone were slamming down the our fists were walking out of the room, not just in the workplace, but in our churches and in our home just say this, the social media today. I mean, we are just attacking one another and the church is attacking one another and it's like, what's the solution will let me begin by just pointing out what we come up with a lot of things we look at Christians doing badly and we're just like the world so we'll talk about this would divorce her with premarital sex and our teenagers. Whatever like how it shouldn't be this way. The interesting thing with our corals about convictions is in some ways I think Christians actually have a bigger challenge when it comes to convictions in the non-Christian world the limits point, especially between Christians. Here's the deal. I'm non-Christian who's thinking of their convictions is what what do I think about this that I might read this book about books and basically you develop your conviction to please yourself not to miss or make you happy but just took what you find to be reasonable good sense that I make sense of the world, yet the end of that I can you feel that I host. So a Christian. Besides, before conviction, and honestly I don't care what I think I care what Jesus points so I have inconvenient convictions convictions.

I don't like, particularly when I think I will probably look, I don't really have a choice and there's all kinds of things. I read the Bible that I would've thought up, many of them over the course of years are going to treasure our lives over was a problem that I could've thought that up, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm looking to please Jesus. So if you have the audacity to have a different conviction when I do what you're really telling me is that you disagree with my conviction that you disagree with my vision of Jesus telling me I got my God, whom I worship wrong will help second goal and so you realize, ma'am. This upscaled significantly and we do the same thing biblically because were peeling not just to a book with the book of absolute so you read your Bible and think that we should care for the poor are read my Bible and think that we should be preaching the gospel to tribes across the world and suddenly we see these things differently and it's like oh but if you're telling me the Bible says and I'm telling you, so something different. One of the universe is a false prophet so you can just see the whole thing ramping up my observation is this isn't an indictment of Christians. This is an observation about the way we never get to things, but it makes it way harder to have a disagreement about conviction yes oh, that's reality anywhere on their heads and oh yeah oh yeah and we do have the book in all of us hold it in high esteem. So we want to honor the truth in the book so when we do you describe the problem you now so here we are were sitting at a dinner tackler meal we find a person with a PhD so you know how you have these marital disagreements where you haven't ever had a Marine Sgt. You just go, that is not what I said I just know you you sent or I said it, but that's not what I meant okay to Christians can go to the exact same passage. Let's let's take Romans 910 and 11. Some the most controversial chapters of their test because it deals with sovereignty, predestination, words like that you can have two scholars who know their Greek better than you could ever imagine. They were both looking at 910 11 say Paul actually means the exact opposite of what you are sent to Greek does not mean what you say it needs, or using it in a way that I totally disagree with. So now you both look at the same passage and are like were speaking in alien language because Paul did not mean that that's what's so hard when it's families because you both are quoting the Bible which we used to think is like it might drop right. Hey I want to court a passage boom is your spouse, child, coworker, and they go yeah my Jesus done believing that that's when it gets hard. So one of the things were going have to do is we have to find the relationship working have to step back and say listen were married couple and we seek first Jesus's kingdom were committed to Jesus's purpose is not what were doing is probably ranking these differently is what where the tension is going to be so I do think it's important step back and say hey we really do like each other as coworkers. I love you as my son or daughter were just haven't a bona fide disagreement and we think at the Winsome conviction project that's not always bad to have what Rick what you describe a little bit what you say in authentic disagreement. Yeah, we one of the biggest problems we have in these sorts of areas is the failure to actually achieve disagreement because we don't really understand what the other person say and until I can articulate it in a way that you nod your head and say you said and also you've captured my feeling about it you know if I'm all charged about her yeah and you give me this flat statement on the psycho you haven't gotten it so can I actually articulate the viewpoint of a person who I do not hold in a way that they say.

Yeah, you understand and what I tell people look until you can do that you haven't actually disagreed because you don't know what they think and you can disagree if you don't know what they're thinking. So make the effort to actually understand that it involves listening often the hardest part is actually empathizing people on the opposite side of these contentious issues. You have a hard time wanting to feel what they are feeling when you find them feeling some slavery to say because he could be listening and I heard a lot of people I could say something in there, they'll say all that stupid right now soliciting cousin so you feel rejected. So you pull back and then that animosity builds. See, that's the Winsome part that that's what we mean by Winsome so communication is always on to levels not one. There is the content which which would be that's my interpreting Jesus this way. My content is I vote this direction, but the relational level is the amount of respect between two and visuals the amount of acknowledgment and the amount of compassion went when Deborah Tannen, a Georgetown linguist describes today is the argument culture.

She's mostly saying we failed on the relational level. Americans have always disagreed with each of the churches always had disagreements, she feels like it. It's a failure of acknowledgment compassion and empathy because you're right and people respond like about that stupid you got about 20 you have to do this in a cyclone I don't have to do anything.

And that's where the tension comes in. So we want to slow people down.

Give them a speed bump so we work with a large Christian high school in California to help teachers know how to talk about the upcoming elections was before the election how to talk about it with themselves and with students so you can move the four step method as we would really get going now. One guy said he can't Just say what I want to say yes you gotta do these four steps so that's interesting because in marriage. People say the same thing. My friend used to say to me I would have to kiss printing this beautiful little package I Michael you don't have to suffer the kind you just let it all out and you're saying this is truly a conflict turn the biblical word Hall Paul says speak the truth content. Do it in love, Nader says yes I want you be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you content do it with all gentleness and reverence. Wow, I think that's facets easy content relational everywhere in the things of the new test before or not but I also want to make one comment that is so genius of you guys. I mean, you know this because you you know your genius is likely to like about this is simple because when you're talking about, listening, empathy restating to me to my satisfaction that you heard me, and you understand me that's relationship all yeah you know me when that happens, even a person does that and it could be your spouse because this everything you said is I God is that have to happen in the family room with your spouse every day and your kids yeah but when my wife or my kid when I can restate in the persons nodding something happens there.

We are like, okay, I trust you. You cared enough to listen well, you're even captured my emotion you don't agree, but you've captured it okay we have a relationship.

This building that could be a total stranger, but something just right since it started here and now we can go somewhere but if you don't do that. There, it's the relationships that there are now were both sort isolate walking away but anyway this is a common because I'm thinking there's there's couples right now that are that are estranged and part of it is your spouse feels like you never really listened. Or you could say the words back to them, but you never captured how the tone I called earlier saying that you now you know I season when Atticus is my luck and that's the problem right with within a marriage.

They know all of your pills yeah so the name no. Oh that's Dave's funny little smile when you say I don't believe you know and I wouldn't know that not all know that about their clear in a heartbeat. Yes, so this is a challenging to do the things out there. Good take a deep breath. I'm actually going to reported I'm going to replace it with feeling and consider perfectly, David.

It's what rebuilds trust in like okay okay now I hear is now we can now we can take the next step. But until you take that first step. The other people like you… Is not taking this trip know my favorite Telles Mitel is that I wish Marie were here. So ignoring saying something again. I teach communication. I know you have to keep out of sight. Now he's telling I know not to say to Noreen come on this. This is, or can I just wrap this up. Hello you.

I'm about to read about you and I got the drop the Mike moment I raise my glasses.

I squeeze my and I just say something but you can't really understand like you are about about it though and has perfect deniability. If Noreen ghost what would you say I said I'm praying for I'm praying for you to pray for us on American reason does not tell right like all that he just dismiss is not even Wheatley is a great quote in the book of Baptist set up an Episcopalian. I can't listen to because what I think you're about to say oh wow, that's great, and that a great quote so so maybe we should talk about these four engines, four steps are revolutionary, but they were meant to be a speed bump before we talk about anything super simple subspace good to say hey here's what I heard you say number one number one is he really needs is so first thing to say. Here's what her decision so I can think what that I grew almost always or should be some point of contact that I won't get in the quibbles about whether or not that's technically true, or whatever him to sing look lenient. Third thing is, what did you resonate with MS really interestingly different than what I agreed with.

So, for example, a person might tell you about a story about their dad who came in as an immigrant and all the challenges he faced and all that and they're making a case for for open borders sorts of immigration pulse we might disagree with that policy but you can still resonate with the feeling. What was it like for your dad to live in a country as a 13-year-old were didn't speak the language it didn't have a place to blowing oh so I risen with it and then you get to add your part. So first let me play back what heard. Second, here's what I referred here's what I can resonate with what struck me in them for fears. Would like to add to the conversation. So what were doing this. It became the moderator we called up a speed bump what it really was, was self moderation tool and all the people we kind of instantly appointed to be group leaders had to do is just in effect when the person said I don't want to do this. I just want to respond safe you can respond. We let you respond after you said the other three things so it made them pause opens up the opportunity for first hearing the other thing it does is a reflex response is very emotive so this gives you apostolate your reason kicked in, and without that pause, you just blow your flame and this basically is a little regulator turns down your pilot like you don't ignite the gas courts are going at it in the thing that speed bump for me. I hate him. When I say when I fly over to Mike. What's this is the speed but the truth is there need barely protect the neighborhood.

The other tech like you said anything I don't always want to do this I need. So I'd like to do this.

Apply the speed bump to say that okay let her know how likely you give us an example.

So let me do my position I came up with this and again we should say this right away. The views represented here do not necessarily those of bio universes even represent you guys. Maybe this is just one got away. They got into a lot of trouble and you can do that because your doctor okay so I did not vote for president you voted, but not fiber loaded for the down ticket. All the props all that concept when it came to president, I felt I was stewarding my vote by not giving like if you're too lazy to evoke shame on you died for your right to vote. The people died for my right to steward my vote and I simply don't think that that these two kids.

This is just me these two candidates.

I just couldn't vote for either for different kind of reasons and so I purposely offered a non-focus to me.

The narrative will never change. We just walked in the two parties I have to boat know you don't have to vote you have to steward your boat. So, believe it or not there's a bazillion people who disagree with that and actually have gotten mad at me. So Rick so if two more to say that you let me just give my flame respond by random shop. Tim floats is going to if you don't vote no one knows your vote just simply vanishes so it's great to say hey my rhetorical strategies to withhold my vote.

But no one knows that you withheld is like saying I'm not to save us on Twitter and you don't have a twitter account and no one knows that you're not saying anything you conveyed nothing so I doubt would take me off to every one. The tone did you notice that, like within development, and Rick and I are friends, but if I got hit with that right obligates that just won't work right. So let me wind it back okay. Option two is okay to.

I think I hear what you're saying in the spring and partly is your frustrated because you feel like you can't vote for even the two viable candidates we have and presumably if you voted for third party that's as good as wasting something or you're actually endorsing somebody attribute disagree with this you don't favor the third party leader to your feeling trapped with history and I kind of agree with your point. I don't feel really comfortable with either of these candidates either, so I'm I'm feeling that he resonating fascinating sailors of the agreed part I rereading right now I'm in. Here's the thing I said you honestly Tim, I have lost sleep over this matter. I have lost sleep… Really concerns her lip, so I I hear you, but let me say what I'd like to mess, Stoppard's. I understand that you just don't want to vote, but the bottom line is you know ahead of time one person or the other is going to become president and why not at least make the effort to put in the direction of whomever you feel is best because your silence.

Just as in the Potomac.

So that's what I'm going to do and I'm to go ahead and vote for Caribou that I find less objectionable now. Quick point Armandos notice we have a vivid disagreement at the and this is why we don't just say women, some Kumbaya, but rather when some conviction because we we do not want to do anything to dispel conviction. If anything, I worry that we live in the whatever general yeah you have done by creating a speed bump is you've taken the face down because you're ready for a fight that you've come at it with peace as a person of peace and so the fiscal go down you're willing to but it won't work if I ignore it, not the number and respond with is a conversation on a date where it's time to my response response so I'm in respond to what Richter said but if I if I toss out the method just say one of my totally disagree that my vote disappeared you kidding me. It did not dissipate right now were back in that argument culture so I have to force myself to go speed bump speed bump.

Okay, here's what I'm hearing you say right and then I do it and then he throws the ball back to me after about him and you just keep in this not we feel like it's learning how to play scales on the piano, but a good jazz magic position at the end.

He just plays so after a while we hope that this becomes been a marriage with your kids. This is just a normal part and now we can kinda mentally go through incentive. Okay Juan I gotta say now said to resonate right hopefully becomes like like jazz loan. What I as I'm listening to you. I'm thinking oh it's the fruit of the spirit Galatians if love is joy, peace, patience and kindness like if we would apply these goodness, faithfulness, and self-control that I would just end with this. I can picture homes all around the country. Listening to this broadcast and haven't different conversations tonight in the family room is parents say. Here let me teach my kids how to do a speed bump modeling of let's have a winsome conversation, not throw our convictions away and are really strong, passionate beliefs, but no hold onto those and let's dialogue.

I mean I can change America mean go you just modeled obviously what the Bible would teach about how to resolve a conflict.

It's like this and it can be with some dozen is not hard doesn't mean you might not get really ugly. You might have to walk out of the room and when you go bring a speed bump back in and start writing units was going to be honest, but man, if couples are doing that families are doing and I hope you brought hope into this room when you go, especially guys for being with us to our pleasure. I am thinking maybe you are to about conversations I've had in recent days where a speedbump would've helped slow things down. De-escalate the situation. Have a more reasonable interaction and conversation. And that starts with us being committed to have a more winsome conversation Tim. You'll often Rick Langer have joined us today to talk about a book they've written called winsome conviction disagreeing without dividing the church and it's a book we got in our family life today resource Center. You can go to our website. Family life today.com to get more information about the book you can order from us online or you can call to order one 800, FL, today is our number again. The title of the book is winsome conviction disagreeing without dividing the church order it online@familylifetoday.com order by calling 1-800-358-6329 that's one 800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today.

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Rick Langer and Tim you'll helpful be here again were to hear about what the Bible says in Romans 14 about how we can have personal convictions. We need to be careful that we don't turn those into absolute truth for everybody that's a tricky thing to manage and will hear more about that tomorrow. Hope you can join us for that on behalf of our hosts David and Wilson on Bob Lapine see that next time for another edition of family life today. Family life to date is a production of family accrue ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most