The Worth of a Woman

It's clear that most of the well-known characters in the Bible are men pastor Eric Shoemaker says when you start to read your Bible, looking for what God says about the worth and value and dignity of women. You may find yourself surprised.

I started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible and at the first promise of the Messiah, the seed of the woman will crush the serpent said it is interesting that God says is the seed of the woman he's going to come from the woman and I've just noticed as I've re-examined the storyline of redemption. How many times there are old, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women who rescue the line of the seed. This is family life to the hosts are David and Wilson on Bob Lapine. You'll find us online@familylifetoa.com, Eric Shoemaker and Elise Fitzpatrick believe it's time for us to take a second look. Along hard look at what the Bible says about the worth of women talk more about that today.

Stay with us and welcome to family life today. Thanks for joining us. I'm curious, have you and felt like a second class Christian because you're a woman to good question.

Wow, that's a loaded grade is not a question I wait to hear her answer, and I started in ministry in 1980 and so there are times that I found very confused of my role of my voice where my place was in the church and so I'm not sure.

I felt like a second-class citizen because I knew who I was in Christ, and that sometimes in the church. Yeah, yeah, I think I did have you observed that as her husband. Oh yes, I was wondering how honest she was going to be yeah for sure. Being a strong woman. This that's what made it really hard. I kept thinking, should I not be strong. Should I pretend that I'm not strong. That's where can really get tricky because I'm not just a naturally submissive and very significant. Today we have that we have a soulmate with you in the studio today. Don't wait staff. Elise Fitzpatrick is joining is a good family life today.

Elise welcome.

Thank you five along with Elise Eric Shoemaker is here.

Eric is a pastor from Iowa and Elise is an author and a speaker who lives in Southern California at the two of them work together on a book called worthy. That's about the value of women celebrating the value of women. Eric, I should say welcome to you as well and Elise I saw you kind of nodding and moving in like I have felt exactly how and has felt its name because in one sense when I was first saved and I didn't become a Christian until 1971 when I was first saved. I was actually in the church that ordained women to the pastorate, although I still sort of felt that there was something more important about getting men to affirm you then, women then after we left that church and I've been married for over 45 years, so Phil and I left that church and went to anymore. Let's say reformed sort of a church. Then I really felt it and it was it was not just that women couldn't like let's say teach on a Sunday morning right something like that it was not they needed to be quiet and going to first Peter three this quiet tone and so women like us who have stronger personalities who are louder. I sort of always felt like I didn't fit in and started reading the old dead guys and the things that they said about women were shocking to me. Still, I don't think I really took it to heart and an example of what's in the old dead guys. You know, we can even we can even talk about rabbis of old hello who would say I thank you God that I was, not born a pagan and that I was not born a woman and things that even people that I love and really venerate Luther and Calvin.

The kinds of things that they said about woman being the source of evil and the reason that the race has fallen and how she is by nature. Nothing other than emotional and eight trap those kinds of things that are still there and I think that probably I want to say subconsciously. Maybe those things have infiltrated into the life and doctrine of man who read the old dead guys and so there is a discounting of the voice of a woman. What we need to frame this conversation that I think because you guys know family life. We know you. We share common convictions that the Bible has things to say about proper role and function of men and women in the church and in the home and not everybody agrees with this, but we look at this and say there are there are certain limited things that the Scriptures would say a woman in church ought not do these few things a woman at home should there should be some deference some submission to her husband's leadership and authority, you affirm that as you write this book on the value of women right that's correct so what were talking about when we talk about how we ought to think rightly about women in the church and in the home comes with those caveats in place but sometimes Eric those caveats have so controlled the discussion as to kind of go beyond the bounds of what Scripture saying and so will let's push it down even more and let's silence women in places where where the Scriptures when we we go beyond what the Scriptures say that's right, I think income or posture is something's gone wrong in the church were wrong in the culture and we need to recover what the Bible is saying about this. We can begin or posture of recovery or defense, or even going on the offense and we can begin to define everything we think about an issue such as men and women in terms of this is under attack. There's a threat against this and one of the consequences of that as we begin defense the law in the sense that the Bible might have these restrictions, instructions, and we draw boundaries around those so that we don't get close to violating those rights and what ends up happening as we begin to say to women, you can't do this and this, because it might look like this and we prevent them from doing things God is called equipped and gifted them to do on that note, we begin to think about woman of strong personality or something to say and we can begin to be suspicious of them to automatically suspect she's probably trying to usurp my authority or bring down man or or something like that which can be very unhealthy and we have obviously many many incredible women in our churches and ministries all over and I think a lot of them have felt. I know my wife is felt like I can't use my gifts, I shouldn't use my gifts, I should not even say something in this meeting because I'm strong and I miss it. Strong 11 times I've been like okay settle down there. I'm saying that it's interesting to watch that you know that it's totally different church world and ministry world and it is in the corporate world and you see that you wrote about it. Would love to hear your perspective because we got a man in a woman writing a book on women and honestly you think thoughts can be a woman writing this in Eric your part of this lies that what your perspective. I've been a pastor for 17 years and in the Caymans of pastoring with a very strong complementarity and theology that Bob just describes you know I would affirm in my theology that men and women are ontologically equal work or equal in our value and are equal worth, I think, as I thought about the distinct roles God might have for men and women in the church in the home. I over applied those in some ways that were biblical and it took for me. Some strong women who I would remind pastors and husbands. Our gift to you. Some strong women coming in saying why are we able to do this or I don't feel like our women are being given solid theological education. You know, maybe all the training is for the men and women are being overlooked or women coming in saying I'm confused about where I can speak and how I can have a voice and even just noticing in my own heart.

Sometimes there's suspicion about strong woman in her voice and realizing I don't know why that is but it is and so it's been a journey for me to think afresh about what the Bible says about women and their role in the storyline of Scripture and so really for me. Oh, just a few years ago just thinking you know it's been a long time since I've examined these issues and thought critically about them and then with the rise of the me to movement.

I think your 20 years ago as a young knee-jerk conservative sometimes emphasis on jerk. I would've written off the whole me to movement, just as you know, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. You know, just women. They got hurt and angry and trying to burn everything down and I decided I just need to listen. I need to listen to these stories. And as the church to movement began to develop thinking and to listen to what these women are saying they're experiencing in the church, especially with Rachel Dan Hollander. You know she brought down Larry Nassar and exposed so much going on in the gymnastics world listening to her speak about how she was received in her church and even lost her church because she was advocating for women who were sexually abused.

It just really struck me and I realize I have a lot to learn and listen to hear and so I started paying attention to where women showed up in the Bible and that's sort of the genesis of this book is I tweeted out a series of women who were the first humans to do certain things. It turned into an article, and Elyse and I then turned it into a book and what I've noticed as I've just re-examined Scriptures looking for where women show up, you know that the first promise of the Messiah, the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. So often I just looked at that passage and thought also were looking for the sun which we are you know are looking for the sun that will crush the serpent said. But it's interesting that God says it's the seed of the woman using the come from the woman and I've just noticed as I've re-examined the storyline of redemption. How many times there are bold, wise, strong, shrewd, brave, courageous women who rescue the line of the seed that's promised and preserve that and so it's not like in the storyline of the Bible that we have these active men who are the initiators in the Savior's and these passive women who are the saved. We have some active women, who often take initiative to do brave and courageous things to save God's people and sometimes preserve his deliverer alive. Elyse, how did you and Eric connect so I saw what he was doing on social media, and so we started connecting through social media and then I saw his article that Winamp on that 21 first the first time that this promise is given. It's given to a woman the first time that this name of God is used. It's used by a woman the first time that this promise.

The promise that nothing shall be impossible to God. The first time that that was ever given was given to a barren woman, Sarah, the first time in the new covenant when it was given is to a 14-year-old virgin girl named Mary so you know where Eric had this list of all of these firsts where women were involved and it's really quite a shocking list when you begin to think about it, and to say then we connected. We had a minor little podcast and then said maybe we should do something with this and that's how we connected. Is this subject in the Bergman your own heart from before reading Eric on social media sure because as an aside, as women. This is something we have experienced and even just to the point that when I go into a congregation and all I see is males leading and again and we have to say this over and over again. We are not pushing against the ordination of males who are qualified, were not pushing against that what we are saying. Over half the congregation here is women and I can we have some representation somewhere and not only that, but when the sermon is being given is it primarily sports illustrations.

I may just go away is throw off like a so you know, the question is, MI has a women even acknowledge is my gender even acknowledge and quite honestly I think as women we've learned to accommodate ourselves to that, so that I'm not shocked when I go into a congregation and see one gender represented and one gender being talked to and about. However, I think it would be a good thing if the men would recognize the fact that more than half of their congregation is not male and it's more than half. Here's the tension that I felt in the church world and in you, primarily, we we will not apply this in marriage and family because that's who were talking to, but in the church world because we've all been a part of the church world. I felt the tension at watching men usually naturally drift into passivity yes and we want to call men to active involvement in spiritual matters because we know their default is to naturally disengage and we've seen it happen that if women will say I'll do that, guys go great. I'll go home once a game.

You do that and all of a sudden guys subject out and it goes badly for us so to overcorrect what we've said is we've got to get a call men been part of the way we call men up this by saying the women just don't get involved over here because if you do, guys are going to go back home well that's a problem with guys. That's a problem with women and at the same time we are modeling everybody in the congregation. Something that I think is not a good healthy biblical model about what the practice of God's people coming together in worship should look like. It's men and women joining their voices together to worship God. I think that's exactly right. And I think you note some of the dependent congregation urine and why shepherding and so if I'm in the third church that have been pastoring, and in one of those. I remember we used to have a annual Thanksgiving meal service that followed afterwards and would have a time of getting up and sharing what blessings were thankful for. Over the past year.

In my first year to their it was almost all women who got up and shared, and the women in the church would complain that men don't seem very spiritually active. There were men who were and I started engaging the men more and inviting them to do more things and within a few years. It was almost all men were sharing of the prayer request time and women were coming to me and saying this is such a wonderful thing to hear the voices of men giving praise to God in the church.

On the other hand the Carnation that I'm in now. I am responsible for associate pastor responsible for organizing our services leading our music and those sorts of things and I've started with our liturgy readings, responsive readings, sometimes women will lead the delete or parts of those and we alternate between men and women reading the Scripture reading in the service and women have commented on how great it is to hear a female voice in the service, to the point where they said now you know we were out of town.

We visited church in it was striking to me that I didn't hear a woman's voice the entire time we were in church and I think about the apostle Paul in his instructions to first Corinthians were talks about head coverings the context of it is he's talking about a woman praying and prophesying in church and Paul seems to expect that in the local church gathering you're going to hear a woman speaking at some point so it what what what what about you know that's a longer discussion. I think mines are additional that is later on. That's where he saying when there's a prophecy to have it weighed and I thought, I think you start with the elders exercising their authority to weigh the prophecy and that they're the ones that are doing that and I know there's interpretations over the place. There so as I think about that, I'm a father of five and so I have four boys and one girl.

My daughter is 11 now and of course my boys have all been into the avengers and the marble you know superhero universe and I honestly hadn't really noticed that my daughter hadn't been interested in those movies and I took her to see Capt. Marvel and she absolutely loved that's you know we had to go out by poster of Capt. Marla for room afterwards and she comes home and she says I want to watch the rest of the Avengers movies and I think it was because she saw a woman in that superhero role.

All the sudden she realized I'm part of the story and I think that when young girls or old women females in between, and men to see a woman participating in the corporate worship of their Lord and Savior on Sunday morning and when they see women highlighted in the Scripture, not just as damsels in distress, but as active gifts of God, who carry the story forward. They begin to realize this is my story to not in some radical feminist sense that wants to crush men and put them down but in the sense that God said it's not good for man to be alone I will make a helper for him and always remind people that when God says it's not good for man to be alone will make a helper. The only implied deficiency. There is in the one that needs help, not in the helper would need to help her if there wasn't something lacking, and so it's not good for the woman not to be present. She is a necessary ally in this great task that God is given us. I know that it's been 30 years now, maybe 31 and will maybe she'll remember this but I remember I was going to preach on Sunday at our church about marriage and I just thought of that verse is not good for man to be alone for my delay in doing this alone. There's so many women sit out there there and I can hear a woman's perspective, they're only going to hear me and my sports stories and so I went in to fill over this that I just said you join me in this message.

She's like you're saying I go, I don't care eyes honestly said that demerit as I said, just speak what ever you want to say to what I'm saying. And of course I want you see the notes and I and we should've prepared. I just felt she needs be up there to represent a woman's perspective on this because all the women are to be like okay that's great. I'm here for another husband. Hopefully it's good but that lacked you to be there.

See comes up with me and I'll never forget, we have Saturday service and then three or four on Sunday and Saturday night. She just sat there like I know what you can do. She strong woman.

She's a little upset told me on Tuesday instead of this morning and I can remember it like yesterday. It was the best marriage message. We had ever given I've ever given. Because she did, she interrupted and said I actually disagree.

Here's I would say this might in the winter like it was like Capt. Marvel is like I'm up there and SH unrepresented and I look back on our legacy at our church. There is rarely a marriage family message given without the man said my woman can be with me on this. It's something you have modeled at our church. It's sort of the DNA. I think the laws were going to come down when I sat on the stool beside Dave and when we are talking about the woman being the helper I said I thought, why do I have to be the helper where is my helper, I think Dave is like you and I said I said I lifted up in the dictionary in Webster's dictionary and it says a helper is a subordinate someone important tells them what to do.

She's a gopher. She does the dirty work and I said no wonder I hate this coming you going to see. Exactly, then that's how we need to go deeper into the study of what God calls us is bringing because your birthday I can hear our listeners some of them drafting the emails in their head that send us down and that's fine numbingly.

It's good for us to engage in this in a lively way and to be corrected when we need to be corrected and and were all open to that, but I think the overarching theme of your book were the end of this conversation is we have to recognize that half of the body of Christ needs to have more opportunity to engage in in the life of the church and in the life of the home and then use our gifts at exactly that and we will all benefit from that engagement.

I think this is good for us to think about and do I interact about and I'm grateful for the book you guys have written that gives us a chance to dive deep into this. The book is called worthy celebrating the value of women by Eric Shoemaker and Lisa Fitzpatrick. You can order the book from us online@familylifetoa.com or you can call to order at one 800 FL today again our website. It's family life to a.com phone number to call to order a copy of the book worthy is one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today you will.

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During this time now. Tomorrow we will talk about what the Bible means when it says a wife is to be a helper to her husband, set a term of value and dignity. How should that be understood. Lisa Fitzpatrick and Eric Shoemaker join us again tomorrow and join us as well. Think our engineer today. Keep along with our entire broadcast team on behalf of our hosts David and Wilson team. See you back next time for another family life family like to use a production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry help for today hope tomorrow