Carolina Journal Radio No. 777: Pro-growth policies yield dividends for North Carolina

From Cherokee to Currituck from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state civil asset forfeiture represent a threat to private property rights in North Carolina that across the country that of a national group called the Institute for Justice joins us explain why his group fights asset forfeiture abuse North Carolina policymakers hope to improve some of the states worst performing schools through a new innovative school district you hear highlights from a recent legislative debate about the district 10 years after a landmark US Supreme Court ruling protecting gun rights.

The legal landscape doesn't look as good for gun rights advocates, the attorney who won the court case explains why learn why a recent poll doesn't tell us as much as we might think about Democrats, Republicans and their attitudes about public school spending. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline data from a national moving service shows that when it comes to household moves between the states in 2017, North Carolina is one of the top five inbound states that is a 62% of our moves were coming in North Carolina, only 38% moving out.

The big question is why our next guest may have some insight into that Becky Gray is senior vice president for the John Locke foundation. She's been writing about North Carolina's economic transformation.

Becky went back to the show. Thank you.so more people want to come here and fewer people want to move out.

That's a good thing. There you go. Great news for North Carolina real message that were doing things right here now. First of all I think we have to start this in all fairness we have beautiful beaches. We have the mountains we have diversity of jobs, diversity of people, all of those things at this time of the natural resource piece of Dass on. Generally, you know and and now spring is finally underway beautiful well are you all they think the other thing is, states have those benefits as well.

Why are people chasing North Carolina. I would argue that it's in large part because of some of these programs policies that have been put into place since 2011.

Are we saying reduction in taxes we sing raining and the growth of government, commonsense, fiscal and budget decisions have been made here there more jobs available here. Some of the investments that we made in education are improving educational opportunities for folks. Investments in transportation and things like that have really transformed our state and so I think that's what people may think you doing things right is interesting that you brought up the issue of the geography and the beauty and all that because people do take a look at things like that and they compare all sorts of things when they're making a move. Sometimes it's for a job sometimes it's to come here to go to school. Maybe it's a corporate leaders looking at where they want their business to grow. So all a lot of retirees are chasing and moved in with Clayton and there's obviously lots of choices, so many, many people are choosing to move here population is growing, and as you mentioned there's a lot of opportunity. Tell us a little bit more about what has occurred over the past few years when it comes to job opportunities and keeping more of what we are well some of these progrowth policies that have to do with fewer regulation a lower tax burden more sensible spending and growth of state government have been a real encouragement and incentive for businesses to come here and with businesses calm jobs and opportunity for people that live here. I'm done since 2013. We've had over 440,000 net new jobs created here in North Carolina. Interestingly enough that with our job growth.

There have been fewer jobs in government, but much more jobs in the private sector. So what were saying is a move away from dependency on government and taxpayers and more of an dependency on the private market opening up opportunities for job seekers for businesses for entrepreneurs and I think that people are responding to this on. There's a lot of data out there, a lot of the measures that economic forecasters use whether it's unemployment rate, GDP wage growth. Those kind of measures and all of those economics tell us what John is doing right, but I think in these statistics that you have cited of people choosing to move here North Carolina.

It's not just a set of numbers. It's not just a set of anecdotes people really are seeing the difference here in what, and them there choosing to move here when job creators. Take a look at where they want to bring their businesses and it's interesting that there's all sorts of things they look at not just the corporate income tax rate which is been lowered over the past few years, but there taking a look at fiscal issues that the state has taken actions on because that's the way they operate their own businesses so they would want to see what kind of estate am I looking at moving to talk to us a little bit about the restraint on spending of tax money and setting ourselves up for a rainy day Donna in in response to buyer businesses choosing to move here. What is the incentive here for them.

It's a lot of things that sustainability on its reliability of what they can expect. So, as they make their investments.

They know what that's gonna look like some of the things we done what con is put money aside and savings accounts. Now this is important for number reasons. One, so that if we have a natural disaster and since we're on the post Mina.

We need to prove responsibly prepare for hurricanes, flooding any kind of natural disaster.

But even further than that. When we have a downturn in in the economy again and it's not if it's win, that's going to occur because the economy is cyclical and and there a lot of things are out of control of North Carolina decision-makers may need a national decisions international decisions impact the economy so we need what we can do in North Carolina is prepare for that and position ourselves for the fast and best recovery. When that happens, having savings account. Set aside.

And right now with County savings with the highest they've ever been in the history of the state.

So what that means. As with these fluctuations in the economy.

What con is positioned to continue core functions of government. We can pay teachers we can pay police officers we can keep courtrooms out. Then we can keep highway patrolman on our transportation system without raising taxes on citizens and businesses say that stability is extremely important. Something else that we've done that.

As far as incentivizing businesses and individuals to come here we federal efforts to keep energy costs low. Now imagine if you all would your business considering moving here to North Carolina. Maybe some of the manufacturing maybe some of the food services agribusiness pharmaceuticals any of those things that use a lot of energy. In addition to lower taxes, fewer regulation, sustainability of government services. We also have low energy cost and these are things that businesses look at as they move and also keeping low energy cost on all of this is not just about bringing businesses and it's also taking care of all North Carolinians. So when we have low energy costs are low income neighbors have a break on that are able to spend their money more in ways that they choose to read than having high electric bills during the summer or the winter. Those kind of thanks to all of these things it's it's an incentive to businesses to calm there the job creators. We want to get people back to work, but this benefits all the things I've mentioned also benefit at our low income neighbors across North Carolina's well Becky, it's been really curious to juxtapose the actions of the federal government over the last few months with the actions of policymakers here in North Carolina we seen tax cuts and tax reform at the federal level as well. But the federal level, there has not been this spending restraint exacted North Carolina his headset made sure was coupled with tax cuts and tax reform so on the one hand, it's good that that federal policymakers understand about economic growth and the need to let people keep more of their money, but they're not keeping spending a couple things limit couple points there on you if you compare the federal tax cuts and with Carolina tax cuts, you will discover that they are very similar. That is no accident.

North Carolina has become a model not only for other states of how to reform taxes but for the federal government itself and as a matter fact that the lot foundation we were called by the White House domestic policy office during these negotiations, of how you doing that in North Carolina. How did that work have you couple this together so that you incentivize business but at the same time keep tax rates low for individuals as well.

Again in as you mention what they didn't do that. We recommended and we are the model four is at the same time that you have tax cuts to also bring efficiencies, get rid of waste and abuse in the spending and that it's a two part program.

Here is a two-part reform so we will continue to encourage the federal government to reign in the growth of government as well. In the meantime we will continue to be a model across the country. I guess it's been Becky Gray.

She is senior vice president John, thank you stay with as much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices.

Spending tax dollars wisely.

Carolina journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal imprint each month and on the web each day@carolinajournal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public events@carolinajournal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio imprint on the air and on the web. You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com will go back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got civil asset forfeiture is a process that allows law enforcement agencies to seize your property, even if you've not been convicted of any crime or next guest leaves a group that focuses attention on the problems linked to civil asset forfeiture and other related threats against property rights.

Scott Bullock is Pres. and General Counsel at the Institute for justice. Thanks for joining us great to be for people who are unfamiliar. Just a quick reminder what is civil asset forfeiture will it's this bizarre power of government that most people are shocked to find out even exists in the country that supposed to respect private property rights and due process used to power the government to seize your whole your business, your car, your cash, regardless of whether or not you been convicted or even charged with the crime and its operates under this legal fiction that the property is somehow guilty of activities or civil forfeiture cases of these bizarre names like United States of America versus $2500 in US currency or state of Texas versus a Chevrolet Silverado with the convert the property committed the crime and what it really amounts to is a convenient excuse law enforcement agencies to take property that than they financially benefit from how big of a problem is which huge the federal government does it, and most state governments do it in the federal government generates billions of dollars a year at the state local level hundreds of millions of dollars a year and it's important to point out to that. This is not.

This is distinct from criminal forfeiture when you don't want people to benefit from the illegal activity of somebody to frauds a company and they've taken all the assets and bought a bunch of stuff with their own personal gain. The government should have the ability under certain circumstances with constitutional protections to go and take the property to civil forfeiture.

It doesn't matter whether or not been convicted or as I said even charged with with the crime and the primary problem with civil forfeiture laws is that law enforcement agencies. In addition to the power of civil forfeiture, but they get to financially benefit from this all goes back to the very people were out there enforcing the laws, which gives them corrupt and perverse financial incentive to take as much property as possible. Rather than pursuing justice frequent listeners to this program may know that North Carolina is different from other states without approaches civil asset forfeiture or state law. From what I understand is pretty good but we fall behind when it comes to how the state law enforcement agencies deal with the feds that's exactly right for North Carolina has the switch basically doesn't allow it with some strict exceptions on on the state level, but what you see in so many states that I have pretty good civil forfeiture laws the state level is at the work with the federal government in order to move the state laws under federal law if it's passed off to the federal government, then the forfeiture can proceed in the feds keep 20% in the informal 80% back, state, local law, but this process is called adoption and equitable sharing, which I do somebody some theory what it really is is its filing people's property rights its filing principles of federalism as well because it is really an attempt with the state law will North Carolina decided that we don't want to give this power to government, but the work around that and work with the feds in order to take the property we are chatting with Scott Bloch who is the president and General Counsel at the Institute for Justice. What can be done about this. Well, there's a lot of things are being done it. And what's really encouraging use in the seven years, eight years that we first started a campaign against civil forfeiture is been some profound changes over 20 states of change their laws to better protect property owners, courts are once again becoming protective of property owners and their rights and in this process.

I answer that's been very encouraging. Congress is once again starting to look at these these laws and saying something needs to be done about them all but one of the things were looking to do is to bring this issue back before the Supreme Court to court is not looked at this issue over 20 years. Justice Thomas just issued a concurrence recently an opinion where he said it's time for us to start seriously looking at civil forfeiture laws again and so we think the time is really ripe to get this issue before the Supreme Court. The Institute for Justice has been working on civil asset forfeiture, but you also see some other related or spinoff threats to property rights. Tells about some of those yeah I mean this is something that we've seen happen in a number of different instances where government agencies are financially benefiting from their enforcement decisions and this creates this perverse financial incentive that exists in civil forfeiture laws, but it's also happening in a lot of other areas as well. The impact private property rights and one of the issues that we've been, increasingly involved in his government's reliance on fines and fees where they are looking for excuses really to shake down citizens as opposed to really being concerned about. For instance, property code enforcement, and so we see this in a number of different cities where were governments are looking to find people for minor violations of the city code which could be even something as minor as not having match drapes in your basement windows or the case, we just filed this week in California where a person had some illegal chickens in their in their yard and then was up had a minor fine, but then ended up having to pay you close to $6000 in fees not only to the government which will private law firm that was enforcing these laws on the behalf of this on behalf of the city and again it's not really about truly protecting public health and safety.

It's about trying to extract as much money from citizens and it's a growing problem throughout the country is related to civil forfeiture and it's something that were dedicating a lot of time and resources to try to put a stop to.

Why is it important that we go ahead and have some sort of action on this front and stop government from using this enforcement mechanism basically is a moneymaker. Well it's it really mean it violates private private property rights. It violates rights to do process and it also corrupts government decision-making as well you every economist will tell you that incentives matter and if you give government actors incentives to financially benefit from their enforcement decisions. It's not surprising that they're going to devote more resources towards towards those types of audit enforcement actions rather than what they should be focused on, which is pursuing justice and truly protecting public health and safety. Do you see some positive signs you mentioned earlier that a number of states of change their civil asset forfeiture laws are our people getting it, or is a still lit up uphill battle. Will you be people are increasingly getting it and that's really encouraging to see. It's one of these things where once you explain it to people. People can't believe that it even exists. I see that this is actually power that happens in in the US and so are some similarly we fought for number of years of battles on eminent domain abuse were government was taken property not for public uses, but for private development projects of people thought how could this even happen in a country that supposed to respect private property rights and other constitutional rights and its similar wizard similar reaction to forfeiture.

Typically, the only people that supported her people that stand to benefit from it and that's why were very encouraged by the progress we've made. But you know there's a lot of powerful interest groups.

On the other side of the equation that others are fighting to keep these laws in place will as these threats to private property rights proceed. One group that will continue working against them, and protecting private property rights is the Institute for Justice Scott Bloch is the president and General Counsel expert level on Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina conservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com.

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Support the John Locke foundation will go back to Carolina journal radio why Mitch coconut state lawmakers hope to help some of North Carolina's worst performing public schools through a new innovative school district during a recent briefing on the new district Republican Sen. Ronald Raburn asked a basic question about its work which you presented is a very nice model of how to get better.

But what I don't see that it may be there and I just don't see you as one of the sling. We understand we have low performing schools.

To me that's a result, what kind of data whom you collected or what do you know about the causal agents of the school failure.

What's the real problem that underlies this requirement in his need because if we don't understand that then everyone of these projects becomes a shotgun to try to find out how to fix a problem without being very directive in our resources and directive in no way attack the problem like family keep coming up. There's no doubt in my mind anyhow. Nobody else were families are involved. Students tend to do better, but having the PTA in place that's not a family substitute. There's just no group of people that may or may not include the children who are not getting the education for other reasons. So my right or wrong in here's the surface we got a problem. Let's shotgun it as opposed to finding out what actually causes the problem and how can we fix that is part of the program extremely important point having worked in partnership with Publix was across the state.

Having a lot of work for that across the country you're actually right. There are other barriers that children face when they come to school.

There's the academic barriers that happen within the school nurse nonacademic bears the children are dealing with when the international building each and every day part of our proposal were looking at applicants that are considering to do this work with us. We are asking what is their community-based strategy.

One of the other partners. The third of looking at they'll be involved in this because we don't do something comprehensive and we look at the school site alone. Only through instruction and we try to do that in a vacuum. You miss the greater opportunities to address the communitywide factors that we we hear about the common factors of poverty and the barriers that come with that. We also know that there are some schools out there that are really doing a great job of dealing with those factors and create the right environment and seek to thriving and achieve.

So we have to continue to learn. We have to get better. To me that's part of an organization when it starts is looking at the lessons learned from other places been committed to learning and growing as we get better and better at this work that's Eric Hall, superintendent of North Carolina's new innovative school district. It's designed to help boost the states worst performing schools will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation. We do, and that's not bluster in a private survey of more than 250 North Carolina political insiders 87% said we influence them either a great deal a good amount. So while others talk and complain. We get to work providing research solutions and help our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control.

Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse that is the envy of every other state. Our research is actually help policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first in freedom were dedicated to you will get back to Carolina journal radio why Mitch coconut 10 years have passed since a landmark US Supreme Court case known as Heller protected Second Amendment gun rights, but the ruling hasn't had the impact gun rights advocates might have bought it during a recent Campbell Law school forum Alan Gora explained why girl is the lawyer who won the Heller case. He says many federal judges today don't support the ruling don't think they don't believe you'll and an absent actually being compelled by the Supreme Court to do so, they will force is quite a letter much the United States is a serious question about observation leads Gora to a basic question about the Heller ruling as Heller something is going to survive. Given the intensity of the resistance to assure that it will it's interesting that couple summers ago in 2016 I was invited the symbolic pro-gun rights speaker panel at the site. We have their summer voice is inaugurated and Marinol is to be confirmed or maybe something better from the left. The question was, was whether Heller would survive.

But how and one more is said, well, as soon as they get 50 because I just can't stand in most of my friends on the sides and not worry about that. People around because it's throughput devastating to overturn it just will mean a whole lot is down to nothingness and you didn't seem right to me to saw the boats come in including Judge Garland Parker and I didn't think the left coming off a five second nonetheless. Whether it is a formal matter by neglect or by willful disobedience.

The end result is the same as a decision that exposing any other decisions published reports, judges are there now way how is part of the course itself. We have this parchment and says all kinds of things about the limits of government the power to grant the government but when push comes to shove, if the judge is willing to give the norm is more than the glorious freedom ranging by Joseph Stalin, 1938. That's Alan Gora is the attorney who won the Heller gun rights case at the US Supreme Court 10 years ago you seen that ruling threatened by other court rulings during the past decade quite appropriate when the wind is called upon to interpret the Constitution to apply the Constitution to present-day reality to themselves, whether the framers of this text. Understand this text to mean how is language used during the day and those concepts were then enshrined are the concepts that we are to apply today. The Constitution does not mean the framers thought this really mean anything right words of labor and you can fill in the blanks are empty vessel for whatever content you want those provisions.

So I will think Heller's mobile on the history of absence on all matters is problem is we can trust this process as we have decision process or class of people by large or only to call himself. Don't don't care and are going to enforce decision module issued and support given the current state of federal courts approach to gun rights where things stand for the Second Amendment.

The reality is that I lawyers have client does have real serious questions that are on the rise under the Second Amendment questions that regardless of how you think they should turn out any fair-minded attorney or judge you say will that's an interesting Second Amendment question Cyprus and I asked the potential client.

Where are you there with certain circuits. I busily matter because you can't get a panel going to buy.

The facts are as you see decision-making will only be called results-oriented process. Some judges are more likely to rely on the dissent in the Heller case than the majority opinion. Others engage in a process described as narrowing from below, is that there are some decisions, the Supreme Court that are on your soul all so practical or so offensive. For whatever reason they are narrowed from below by the lower courts that don't give them the most reasonable instruction, but given the most palatable one as part of the judicial was Heller's is one of his what is there is the passage of time is Heller's legacy should point it may soon be regarded as mostly symbolic, I can argue what does this narrowing from below mean for the future of constitutional law girl doesn't like what he sees. Decide what you think this is good or bad from a normative stand point about gun laws how you feel about firearms, gun rights what is good or bad for America. Ask yourself what this does to us as a nation supposed to be a nation of laws and not women is really the fact that we are the kind of country. The president's words used to describe certain places with the law is not where you go to the lawyers office and the lawyer says what you can win or lose based judges sitting is that really what we want for anything, especially the Constitution.

We have an understanding that we teach as others we have a system of vertical precedent Supreme Court as a peer you have the trial court. Everything is a hierarchy says the following in that the law is essential value predictability right values law does is it informs us water rights and duties are how are we to behave based upon the case and that requires judges to make decisions that they don't personally like so you think Heller is wrong and horrible and terrible history was bad. The consequences for America are terrible because that's all well and good, but this is Supreme Court doctrine. Now we have very intelligent scholars who are not telling you is objective matter.

This is symbolic.

This is not give its best construction people following the dissent. I will make a prediction that if this phenomenal continue that a lot of people are okay with the practice like something very long faces when the tables are turned something that they care about is a matter precedent is limited, but what I'm most concerned about is not the feelings of people either side note you left up to her about her play concerned about what this is doing to Americans to my clients and to people. The public who are becoming civil about the mission course. That's Alan Gora.

He's the lawyer who won the Heller gun rights case of the US Supreme Court 10 years ago is concerned about the way courts have responded to that ruling over the past decade. He shared his concerns recently in the Campbell Law school forum for Carolina German radio with a moment commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards for reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing through all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina journal.com has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINFO for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio and Donna Martinez. The latest High Point University poll concludes that North Carolina Republicans and Democrats agree on many education issues that declaration has some analysts scratching their heads. Since some of the most hotly debated policies relate to how we pay teachers, how we assess achievement, and who should decide where kids go to school. Dr. Terry stoops is vice president for research, director of education studies for the Locke foundation. He of course analyzes and writes about all of these education issues and High Point hold definitely caught his eye.

Welcome back.

Thank you so one of the questions of the pole did make sense to me the results. It talked about the issue of respect for teachers and faculty members, and folks who try to really train the next generation of Americans. I respect their so agreement on that. Oh, absolutely. I mean I think everyone agrees that teaching is a difficult job. You just have to look at things like department school shooting to realize that teachers not only have to deal the academic side, but there's students behaviors. There are other issues that make it a very difficult job and so I think that there is a good is good evidence that there is high respect for the profession that they book that the both Democrats and Republicans agree that it's very difficult job and that there probably underappreciated, then the question started to come up with really curious answers on the issue of funding for schools with high numbers of disabled or poor kids. The results were that the majority said they would support legislation to provide more funding to schools with high concentrations of kids who have issues while Terry number one is not already the case that the schools are receiving additional funding for particular challenges.

Absolutely these state funding formula is designed to provide additional funds for school districts that have high numbers of low-income kids that have high numbers of special needs children and encounter low levels of supports from their local school are the local County commission because of limited tax revenues weary have structure in place where lowest income counties receive a higher amount of state revenue is also the case of federal funding follows those school districts that have a high number of special needs children. High number of low-income children in the way that that structured so we have in place already mechanisms that provide additional funding for counties that have these kinds of challenges I have to say it was rather encouraging to know that people are very concerned wanting to make sure that Tim kids who are disabled or have special challenges them receive the focus that they need we do in this state have a couple of scholarships that really address that and one would think that that concern and support shown in this pool would transfer over to support for these special scholarships. That's absolutely right. So when you think about it we provide all the support for these struggling school districts and when they're not able to deliver.

We actually add another layer support allowing parents that are dissatisfied with the education of these children receiving in these places to be able to take a voucher the opportunity scholarship for low income kids and the disability grant for students who have a documented disability to provide funding for them to take public money to a private institution that better meets their needs so we actually have two layers of support for these families.

One providing additional funds for the district schools and to when the district schools are working out, allowing them to take public funding a private school, yet we know just step based on our experience of of watching the policy debate and he of course are very much involved in that in North Carolina over issues of choice and vouchers in scholarships that people don't agree on this is highly debated. It really is and the it's unfortunate that it is highly debated because you find the parent satisfaction with these programs is really high parents indicate that it's not a easy choice for them to just take public money and take it to a private school. It's a very difficult decision and they do it based on the fact that they feel that their child is not receiving a good education or is threatened with safety or other considerations that would make their continued education in a district school and detriments to the future goals and dreams and aspirations that they have so you know it is the case that these programs are put into place to meet the needs of these parents and largely it's Republicans that believe that these programs are a good idea and Democrats oppose them. Terry also in the High Point poll. There's a question about virtual charter schools and the conclusion was that there is a lack of support across that political aisle for virtual charter schools responded that surprise you get it did, but when you look at the question. It is really misleading because the question basically asked. I do support schools allow kids to stay at home and learn online full time. Well that just suggests that there is a child. This unsupervised that's going on the Internet and learning what they can off the Internet is essentially open. Virtual schooling is a highly structured activity where there's a full-time teacher on the other side guiding that student through a very rigorous curriculum and if parents had an idea of what virtual schooling look like especially full-time virtual schooling and have a very different opinion of whether it's a good thing or bad thing because the perception is that these are kids at home surfing the Internet. The reality is that these are kids that are in a very structured and regular rigorous program with a full-time certified teacher. On the other side being held accountable for their results through state tests and various other measures.

I think that's an important point when I have just to talk with people about the question of a virtual school.

They kinda feel like it is completely outside the system, so to speak, and that there is no assessment and therefore no way to know if your child is actually learning. That's not the case that absolutely not the case. So they are held to the same accountability standards as any district school student is and so when you look at state test scores. You can see the state test scores for the states virtual charter schools. Now it's kind of misleading when you look at those test scores because students are constantly moving in and out of the virtual schools so you find that they're not necessarily doing as well as maybe some of the other charter schools or the states virtual charter school state has its own chart virtual public school, but nevertheless of the accountability standards are there and the state takes a very close look at how these virtual charter schools are performing to make sure that there providing the highest quality education. Certainly education these children and families deserve. Why is Sam empowering parents, giving them the ability to decide where their child goes to school what environment is best for their child. Why is controversy well is controversial because there are folks that one to maintain the status quo. They have a lot invested in the traditional system where students go sit in a classroom that's funded almost exclusively from public schools is Ron by the public treasury. That's run by a local school board. There is an idea that this is the ideal educational situation for every family and the truth is that it's not and never has been, but those who would like to maintain the status quo and have something invested in maintaining the status quo want to see it continue. It just seems counterintuitive that that there would still be folks who believe that a traditional public classroom should be able to serve every child around 82% of North Carolina students are in the traditional public school district schools that were all used in knowing about, and the support for choices is actually growing so were seeing more people supporting public charter schools more people supporting homeschooling and private schooling is actually eight enrollments increasing as well.

So there is some support for these choices but it's growing very slowly. Women talking with Dr. Terry stoops. He is VP of research and director of education studies for the Locke foundation. Thank you all the time we have for the program this week on behalf of my cohost Mitch go back. I'm Donna Martinez. Join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email to development John Locke.call 66 GLS 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio nation airline is maintaining Carolina run system.

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