Surviving Suicide - Rita Schulte

Today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, the devastating loss of suicide.

How does the person see themselves how they see God having to see the world around him after the shattering event writers the world a safe place so there's a lot of meaning making that goes into having to traverse this Dr. welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary And author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" today, author and counselor read initial talks about her own personal journey. The loss of her husband. She's written our featured resources today titled surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the room. You can find out more at 5lovelanguages.com. As you might expect, today's program is difficult one. Gary, this is a topic that many families friends are having to deal with in our world.

You're exactly right.

Chris is a poster woke with a number from which through this experience.

It's never easy, never easy for me and removes the poster tried to soap a really am glad the readers will be with us today and share her story and also what she's done in this book I think is going to help a lot of people who were walking through the journey to. Let's meet Rita sheltie.

She is a licensed professional counselor. She specializes in the treatment of mental health disorders in 2011.

She created Hartline radio broadcast that addresses cutting edge mental health issues and provides resources. You find out more about her and her latest book of five love languages.com the title again is surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the ruins go to five love languages.com reader welcome to Building Relationships and honor to be here know all the questions I often ask at the beginning is, why did you decide to tackle this topic and for you is a very personal reason to share that with us so therapist sitting with people through the years and hearing a lot about their stories of loss.

I was motivated number of years ago when I wrote my first book shattered because I realize that people were aware of. Sometimes the losses they incurred much less put words to those losses and so I was very interested in helping people connect those dots in terms of how Lawson affected their heart, their faith journey and just dealing with some of those things that go along with losses and so obviously this was before my husband took his life.

But I wanted to really understand why some people make it back from such a difficult adversity with their faith still intact and why others can lose the battle for their heart altogether. So that was that was that journey and I sort of got buried in this whole topic of loss if you well. And then of course being a stranger lost in my own life was was part of it and then after my book came out, my husband took his life by suicide. So that set me on a whole another trajectory wanting to as I as I became whole and healed like reach back and strengthen my brothers love this verse that I use for my first book, Simon, Simon, Satan is asked to sift you as wheat. But I pray for your Simon, that your faith may not fail when you turn back, strengthen your brother so that was kind of my my first night I mean I think Satan wanted to bury me with this loss.

My Mike was my high school sweetheart. We were soul mates and and yet Jesus was at the right hand of the father praying for me and so now that I've been restored.

I can turn back and strengthen the brethren. People that are going through this. People that may be considering suicide as a viable option for long been married – we were married in 1975.

So yeah, close to 40 years.

What were you what were some of your initial responses, emotionally, and thought this, I was pretty paralyzed. Gary, I found my husband and so that adds an additional layer to the trauma so right. I just was immobilized for number of months and then I I I was consumed with the why questions were also drivers, land now and for me the whole idea though I was the therapist right. I couldn't even stop my own husband from taking his life and so if you can imagine thinking about the person that you love most in this world and imagine for a moment that you are responsible for that person's I just breathe that in for a moment. I mean it's it's levels so was a long journey back because you know the traumatic event shatters the tacit assumptions in the core foundational beliefs in our lives that make the saved and predictable and so there's a lot of questions that have to be answered right. How does the person see themselves how they see God how to see the world around him after the shattering event writers. The world is a place can they trust themselves again right so there's a lot of meaning making that goes into having to traverse this.

This dark journey back. I think for those who have not experienced suicidal spouse or family member.

It's hard even to imagine the trauma and the pain that goes with that knows artwork with people through the years, sometimes bluegrass themselves the question. You know what if I had done this.

What if I had done. But what if you done something differently.

It almost a way of taking it upon themselves to did you experience D. You find that common with people absolutely and you know my husband and I were at our home in West Palm Beach through that weekend, and Monday he was going to fly back by himself. He seemed fine. Monday, the weekend wasn't good. We were down there were some friends, he was to find a treatment center on Tuesday. Paul Meyer and I was going to follow him a day or so later and just stay with him as long as was necessary well that Tuesday morning I got up and I was calling him for several hours before I left Florida and I was anxiety written I could get a hold of him and so he had made other attempts and they always seem to be thwarted. I show up or would we get through it, but not being able to get hold of him was terrifying and so I basically called the doctor's office where he was supposed to have an appointment that morning before he left, and they told me he'd been there so that calm me down was able to fly home but the truth was he never made it to that appointment.

Whoever gave me that information was incorrect. So when I flew home I got a cab. I came home and that's when I discovered hundreds of children respond to this, they were devastated. I mean, Mike was their hero. They just was along was a long struggle.

I think my daughter took on the responsibility of I'm in a take care mom right the first few months. I was just no train wreck, but yet was. It was very, very difficult, especially for my son your children your children or adults brothers right yes yes and actually my daughter had just had a baby a month before Mike took his life and my son's wife was expecting their second child so they had a lot distractions you know in terms of their own lives.

You know, in terms of your previous question about you when I work with people that have lost a loved one to suicide. The guilt is always something the what if I did on this is what if I did on that. I think for me I will always carry. I didn't come back with them on the plane that something I have to live with that. One thing I would want to tell your listeners is that you can only be responsible for what you knew if I had it in any way believed that Mike would have done that. There's no chance I would back when I was with him every moment I could be but you can't be with your loved one.

Every single moment. I'm sure as you mentioned earlier, the fact that you were killed for helping other people of this had to be even heavier incidents for you. Absolutely.

You know, suicide and and that wasn't my area of expertise at the time, right, I didn't. I didn't know a lot about all that I knew now what I knew if I do know that then I would've done some things differently, but for people you can only be responsive for what you know and so having that mercy and compassion on yourself is a big part of your healing journey. Thanks for listening to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" are guessed his counselor and author Rita sheltie, our featured resource. Today is her book surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the ruins you can find out more at 5lovelanguages.com that's five love languages.com first session. Of course you are sure your own story with this let me move now to talk a little bit about some of the practical issues in this whole area of losing someone to suicide.

Let me ask about terminology through the years I've heard people talk about the people committing suicide, and it seems like that's changed a bit, and people are now talking more like a victim of suicide is not an important distinction and why, yes, I think, committed suicide may seem somewhat innocuous but it's actually laden with blame and stigma and were working really hard in the mental health community to destigmatize not only suicide but mental illness so the guidelines outlined by mental health jokes and media organizations really advise against using it because it's damaging for a lot of people it evokes associations with this person committing a crime, committing a sin and that makes us think about something morally reprehensible or illegal.

It also ignores the fact that suicide is often a consequence of unaddressed mental health issue. It should be regarded in the same way as physical health condition. So for example I wouldn't say will you come I committed a heart attack instead say something like I my loved one died from a heart attack so the same kind of thing for suicide. It discriminates against those who lost their battle against the disease and it is a sickness certainly grows out of mental or emotional question about the what are some of the common misconceptions that people have about suicide, and suicidal nation.

I think that it's said that his weakness that is cowardice and impulsive act that comes out of the blue that is selfish in the tragedy of suicide or loved ones fought against an enemy who was himself, and they lost their battle against themselves and so putting that on people or even on the survivor is really hard because I've heard a lot of that you know about Mike and that could have been farther from the truth. I mean these folks, you know people say well it's been cowardly here it's it's weaker selfish, but really if you if you understand that these folks many of them load themselves. They believe in their heart of hearts that they're doing their loved ones a favor would you say to someone who's really having problems moving all after the birth of partner or close family member in their destroyed live with it producer like you know I can't get better counseling is so important in groups are so important. I think the biggest piece for me. And research is very robust on this topic is having committed folks walking alongside of you for the long haul. People need other people who are emotionally attuned and available who will listen and not judge, and who will plant seeds for posttraumatic growth that's important. You don't want to Molly, people you want to help move them toward spaces of growth and so counseling and when you're in it for the long haul with that but II think people if your stock you gotta acknowledge what's keeping you stuck. Maybe it's anger you gotta deal with that before the Lord. If it's you know the why questions. You gotta work those out process that you gotta do the meaning making peace and you really gotta look at your concept of God because as I said, an event like this can create just a shattering of everything that you thought you once believed what was safe and predictable in your life. Heard people say why did God allow this to respond? Well, I think for me I had come to a place where I looked at what was Mike's responsibility in this right might make some choices that were real great in terms of his mental health and so I had to be able to say okay will yeah I mean God, God intervened many times Gary with Mike in these attempts, I could go on and on about it and then he didn't and so why did that happen.

I don't understand all that, and I think this side of heaven. We won't understand it, so we have to move it someplace and some point in our journey from the why to the what's next how God can I redeem this loss and move forward. And like I said turn back and help my brothers, you mentioned the value of being a small group of others similar experiences in a given community. Where would a person like that turn to find such a group I went to all that I had a good friend dear friend of mine who did a lot of research. You know, for me, I obviously went to my church and there was a grief group. There wasn't a suicide group but it was a grief group and those are still some of my close friends today. I also went to a suicide loss support group and that was extremely helpful because that was all people that you had lost a loved one by suicide in your community.

You just have to research to see what's available. I up at the very beginning. I went to I think an eight week it was called Haven and it was suicide specific, but people can contact the American foundation for suicidology AFA. You just have to do the research and you just have to go and my friend actually went with me because I didn't waste any time on I was I was in there. I knew what to do as a therapist so she took me me for the first couple months, and sat with me you you you mentioned earlier that you actually found your husband when you flew back. So clearly you went through posttraumatic stress situation. What is PTSD look like. To those who are trying to love and support someone who has PTSD. It's tough. I had a good dear friend and her husband actually living with me for a while. They were building a house in North Carolina and they needed a place to stay and it worked out God's work that out. But I know it was it was just so difficult for my loved ones, my friends, I had episodes of chest extreme hyper activity right where I was so activated and shaking and I would totally dissociate, like nobody's home. I had episodes of just curling up in a ball because that's what I did that night after I found Mike and I ran screaming from her bedroom and I came down here and just, collapsed and curled up in a ball and what happens with with that is the traumatized brain is being flooded with intrusive images, nightmares, flashbacks, and those things literally become what we call procedural memory and they are encoded in the brain. So a lot of this is brain physiology. So when a person is going through a flashback.

The brain literally releases 8 mg of morphine as it relives the trauma so that's a very powerful side.

Wonder why I felt so physically ill and so did all of the different parts of the brain right are doing different things because trauma impacts key structures in the brain that underlie emotional regulation right the emotional brain is constantly hijacking the rational mind. So my prefrontal cortex.

My rational brain is totally going off-line and that little almond shaped structure in our emotional brain or limbic brain. Our amygdala is constantly firing out of danger danger signal and so at any given moment.

You can get triggered and go into this fight or flight mode where you just literally out of control and I remember one day I was in in the sunroom here with some friends and I happened to look up and I got this big huge cathedral ceiling in here and there's a whole in the wall up there in the drywall and and I knew what it was. It was the bullet because the veterans right over the top of this and the minute I saw at I just dropped right back into the traumatic event and so I'm just going through all that stuff for the folks that were walking alongside me. I think the important thing is they need to know what to do to help the person when they get in the spaces and so dear friend of mine is also therapist actually met with my family and close friend and showed them some things to do when I would get in those spaces of hyperarousal or shutdown and so those became, you know, just kind of go twos where people would help me to calm my autonomic nervous system and you know or if I'm curled up in a ball like get me out get me outside were going to take a walk. I don't care if it's you know 32° out snowing, taking a walk and what that would do with it. I would shift right or we would pray or will you know I would read my Bible or whatever because I have some go twos in order to help people. So here usually some of those go twos are just forcing them as it were, to get up and let's take a walk or absolutely your reading Scripture to loom our gifts as well as encouraging the and and praying with them and there is a power and just being there right yes the presence of an attuned, compassionate person because nobody can fix this and we all want to say things you want to oftentimes give versus and sometimes that those are soothing and wonderful but sometimes timing is right with what someone might say, and so really what the survivor needs is just what you said someone's presence something to put your arms around in a people would just put their arms around me and hold me cry with me right. It was it was a beautiful it was. It was being the hands and feet of Christ carries what it was doing to listeners. If you just joining us. Read shuttle to use with us.

She's written the book. It's her future resource to "The 5 Love Languages" .com. The title is surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the ruins. Or maybe someone has suggested this to you because of what you've been through recently. Thank you for tuning in today again. Five love languages.com you'll see a link thereto surviving suicide loss again.

Five love languages.com Rita I have a question the progression of Mike. This was not something that happened just one day and then was gone use of the word attempts earlier. There is also you say in the book. There was also this level of paranoia that he went through. That is one of the things that people look for them to write. Yes it's it's weird because Mike was not a depressed person and he didn't have a mental illness and he was a dentist. He was a pilot he had his own airplane. He was fine. I mean at the beginning if I'm honest the beginning of that year he started exhibiting a little paranoia, but he was always kind of like paranoid about stuff and so you know we didn't think too much of it but the summer we took a trip with my son and his family in August and it was the downhill slide from their mean he just got increasingly paranoid. He couldn't sleep.

He was agitated. He just it was obvious he wasn't himself and the paranoia was really getting back to we know the family member can't keep the person ultimately from suicide but luscious bug a mental commitment to that person who is heard their spouse or something.

Remember mention suicidal faults. What would be the first thing to do when you hear those expressions don't dismiss that people talking about suicide or having a plan.

70% of people who say they're going to do it do it 3/10 say nothing. So if someone's talking about it, get them help immediately. I mean II can tell you I laid in bed with my husband one night and he said to me, I could never really do it Rita because I could never live without you and I would never want to leave you with all this mess. My mistake was believing him.

My kids and I we really week. We did not believe Mike was going to do it, and neither did his psychiatrist so don't dismiss it, get somebody help right away. Thanks for joining us for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. I guess today is counselor and author Rita sheltie author at surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the ruins you can find out more at 5lovelanguages.com router. We took shoulders a bit before we took the break, but looks good, but what does proactive suicide prevention look like you know you said don't dismiss it. If someone mentions they are doing and thinking about it. What are some proactive things that that might be done so you got a look at the risk factors and I said, talking about suicide is a big one. If somebody has a plan that's a big one. If your loved one is sleeping.

If they are marked social withdrawal. If you see your loved one in immense distress or feeling hopeless. You need to get them help so proactive would look like getting them into a see a counselor if the distress is that bad.

So we did that and then Mike's situation began to deteriorate and so what we suggested, then, was a higher level of care, meaning you need to go to an inpatient facility for treatment.

So starting out with the counselor and then if the person isn't responding. You might need a higher level of care, meaning you know we gotta do something else here with the first is reach out to a counselor because the counters been trying to loosen the grip on ideas like and make recommendations in terms of his ready for another strip right absolutely no you also mentioned in your in your book. Something about ideas in the Bible you know where people have experienced trauma and then there survived that new solutions come to your mother know that you might share. I think David is just a beautiful example.

He is my favorite person and he wrote all these amazing songs of deep lament and I think I have a section about lament even in his darkest hour, David went to a lot of trauma salts trying to kill him. He's betrayed by everyone. He feels so isolated and so alone hopeless at times. Immense distress communicated so eloquently to the Psalms and things that we can resonate with. But what he did was even in his darkest hour Gary. He pressed and toward God with a passion. And that's my heart for folks, never, never give up pressed into God. He loves you. He didn't cause this. This isn't his fault. Your loved one made a choice horrible choice, but God is there press in and find him in there you'll find peace because you really don't phone please return in the world right now. We try all kinds of coping strategies to deal with our pain, but in the end it's only an illusion.

I mean I'm not saying this is you know in six months are going to be fine, walk. Is it just isn't. But God did some miraculous things in my life visions he gave me to replace the horror of the trauma that I witnessed when I walked into that room and he's no respecter of persons. If he can do that in my life and he can do that in someone else's life. What about the person who has experienced a family member about suicide and in their thinking. You know, do I need to reach out for a counselor with their harassment because they never had Chelsea before experiencing what would you select a veil that might encourage them or help them take this trip one of the biggest things I think we need to do as therapists to help people is to encourage them to risk and that's what's gonna engender healing in people's lives and so friends that are surrounding this person would encourage them my friend again went with me took me to the counselor and sat there for the hour while I saw the counselor if that's what it takes let somebody do that but you know counseling you now I have a dear friend. My husband's best friend. His son took his life by suicide two years ago and she didn't want counseling. She did a group for little while and she she fared okay with that so I'm not saying that you know you never to get better if you don't see a counselor, but for the majority of people counseling helps and it's hard for us to go and bear our souls, and on some level. Some people feel like they're going to be. I can't talk about my loved one, I can't. I can't say anything bad about my love.

I'm angry at them for taking their life and that's just not true. So try a few counselors. I mean, I went to several different people. If it's not a good fit then at least you know you tried you making a point about you know you can go to medical doctors and sometimes you click with them. Sometimes you don't write about your box then yeah you don't like the person you don't go back to you.

You write about three areas of impact vulnerability for suicide survivors. Can you explain those sure. I think the traumatized brain is the first area of impact and we touched a little bit on that that's going to be all the posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms that go along with the traumatic event.

The second is the guilt and shame that often accompanies death by suicide for a law survivor, leading to more complex trauma.

It's not like a normal death where someone is sick and dies. So these factors themselves increase the degree of shock and trauma experience by survivors compared to other types of bereavement. The third area is the existential shattering that happens, which leads to a crisis of faith in a crisis of belief.

So those are the things that we've got a make meaning out of we have to land somewhere with our story as we tackle these these three areas. It sounds like you're saying use the connection that you have with other people is vital for the sofa survivor but a lot of time in this situation you talk about the guilt and shame.

It's like I don't I don't want to talk with anybody I want to think about this thing about it hurts so it's almost counterintuitive that you go to press into the pain rather than retreat from right absolutely and and stigma keeps people silent and so does shame.

Shame grows in secrecy and so if you're carrying guilt or shame you have to tell the story to someone you have to go announcing it from the rooftops, but you know suicide even more than other types of bereavement makes people uncomfortable and uncertain of how to react. So the normal person you know I had a lady at a luncheon and a friend of mine put this thing together. They were all widows and when she found out Mike took his life. She literally jumped out of her chair and screamed so it makes it more isolating for survivor so you have to find safe people that you can have a conversation with him is not a friend let me counselor, but you have to tell the story to someone because of your caring shame. It's going to grow in secrecy and silence.

You mentioned the traumatized brain can medication be helpful in that aspect of survivor absolutely, and I am the first to be able to tell you I had to be on medication for a while and so a lot of Christians that's a whole another topic for a lot of Christians just can't can't deal with that.

But there's no harm in doing that.

I mean I was not able to function. Had I not had the medication you know I was more engaged in the counseling process and in the healing process because I was my system was able to finally calm down. You some Christians will will take medication for colds or other other physical illnesses with them when it comes to traumatized brain there. They're reluctant to do that, but in reality it's of a lot of it is a physical fighting this happening in the brain which are described earlier.

And medication can can help so absolutely and so you don't have to be on medication for the rest of your life so so maybe you're on medication for a year and that helps you to build be engaged in the counseling to heal and then you know you wean yourself off of it.

This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" are featured resource today is the book by Rita shelties surviving suicide loss making your way beyond the ruins. Find out more at 5lovelanguages.com router you talk in the book about self compassion for the person who has experienced the death of a friend or from a member of our suicide. You practice self compassion. That's a tough one Gary for FedEx, especially for women, you know, we have this idea that self compassion is self-pity or ask about our self-worth unit.

We have all these common misconceptions about it that self compassion is just showing yourself kindness and gentleness, so I talk a lot to my clients about noticing how they are talking to themselves notice their internal monologue. Is it toxic is it blaming is a condemning and how might they say something to themselves. That's a little gentler a little kinder. Refrain that to help you move forward and get what it is that you want and need.

Self compassion is this idea that being human means being subject to limitations and that was hugely freeing for me. Yeah, I'll carry the fact that I didn't come back on the plane that day with Mike till the day I die. But I've learned to have mercy on myself and realize that I'm human and I'm subject to limitations.

I made the wrong call that day and that doesn't mean that I'm a horrible person but I'm I'm able to show myself. Grace that being human means being subject to limitations so I hope that's helpful for folks because we we're not very good at were good at being compassionate to other people and so I always pray my remarks you know in terms of parts with my clients and so there's a part of you this compassionate how can we grow that part up. How can we exercise that part to make it stronger, especially as it relates to you, not everybody else. And so you gotta be intentional about that because were not usually bent toward the someone who's trying to help a family member who is going through this experience. Are there things not to say to someone who's going through suicide loss for you.

This is real pet peeve of mine came Warren on my radio show. Think about a year or so after their son Matthew died by suicide. She wrote a beautiful Facebook post. I don't know if you ever read it or familiar with it, but if you Google came Warren Facebook post.

She said about as eloquently as you can, you know, please don't ask someone to get over this right.

Let them grieve what they've lost before you tell them to be grateful for what they have and so I think all too often people again because they're uncomfortable with our grief. They want their old familiar left one back want to hurry the process and really there's as we know, no timetable on grief, but especially the loss by suicide because there's really no closure with the death by suicide. You try to formulate the meaning making peace and and have some closure, but people say all kinds of things like don't say at least well at least they found the body, or at least you had him for 30 or at least you had a great marriage, it minimizes the person's pain. Be careful with Scripture. People can say what God wanted another angel in heaven. So he took your loved one. Well house I can make you feel about God. Thanks God you now. I wanted my loved one here I was ready to let go. So there's all kinds of things I've had people that if horrible things. Oh well, I hope your loved one is in and how it's really bad.

And so you really need to think before you say something house that can affect the survivor's they've got enough to on their shoulders to bear absolutely on the loss of personal and social talk to the merit whose children are struggling because of the suicide loss of a parent or grandparent to help young children or even adult children process well how parents talk to their kids about suicide depends on how old the child is the key is that parents do talk and we often forget that children are people too, and they're curious and they want to know why, just like we do.

So silence only fuels dysfunction. I think important to note that your ideas about how to communicate about grief and loss. So all the miss that. Perhaps you held from childhood about how to talk about grief mean a lot of us grew up in homes that you don't talk about the stuff you sweep it under the rod. You pull yourself up by your bootstraps replace the loss. You know all those things are going to impact how a person talks to their children about grief and loss and is suicide. So one thing that can happen is children can be fearful that if a parent has died.

Grandparent has died, the other person is going to die or leave them. This is true of younger children.

Are they may become clingy. They make get angry.

They make me act out in ways they may exhibit behavioral difficulties or regress in some areas of their lives I think is important that the parents help their children understand they've lost a spouse to suicide that they are doing all they can to get the help they need to take care of themselves so that they can be there for the child if were talking adolescence children you know have a more concrete awareness prefrontal cortex is in a more developed they know and accept the death is final. They may seek more support from peers and friends as a distraction from their grave.

They may not be able to put words to their pain. They need encouragement help counseling for sure would be great support group.

You don't want to just leave them alone. Often times, an adolescent will feel responsible for the other parent, and so there can be like a shift there where that person takes on this idea that I thought of make dad or mom. Okay, I'm responsible for that. Not their job so you know parent who's alive needs to make sure they are taking steps for their own self-care so that the adolescent doesn't have to feel like they need to step in and do that encouraging the young person to talk about it even though they may be reluctant to do so right yes absolutely check in with them and you can't force them to talk about it but you know there's lots of different things and activities you can do to help memorialize the love want to get a conversation started you know leave us seated at the dinner table on a holiday speak about the things you love about your loved one. Plan a tree, let's do something to memorialize that right where you know we have this particular space not to talk about it all day long, but in this particular space that we want to have a little bit of a conversation about it and checking with everybody to see Heather doing you mention this earlier flashbacks. Sometimes, the visual images that you see in your mind again.

Are there some practical things in terms of processing those those memories of the emotions that come back with them. Sure, the best thing I did in therapy was a therapeutic modality called EMD arts eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

It specifically designed for trauma and the research on it is very robust so God just showed up in such major ways for me through that at the very beginning of this, God gave me a couple of visions that were just superpowerful but I think this when I was doing the MDR session with my therapist.

We were dealing with my guilt and God gave me the most real image I was sitting on the side of our bad and Mike was standing there and he had his hands cuffed around my face and he looked right into my eyes with this laserbeam gaze and he said Rita it's not your fault and boom it was like wow God gave me some other beautiful images like so when the flashbacks, and even now, you know, like I just immediately will see what he gave me is the vision was just God make that I can't make this stuff up a very emotional obsession to be sure for us as well as for our listeners, but I do know those who are listening have gone through the experience of losing someone to suicide. This is been very helpful to them and I want to thank you for being with us today. I will thank you for writing this book and for your basic attitude. You want to turn having walk through this to help others as they walk through it know that's what motivated to write the book, so thanks for being with us.

Thanks for what you're doing and limiters encourage our listeners to to get this book, and it's going to be helpful to you. And if you're listening.

Maybe you haven't gone through this, but you know a friend who is going through it right now. Give it as a gift available it will help them so let's do everything we can to walk with those who are suffering the results of having lost a family member in this matter. Thank you for being with us today. God bless you guys. Thank you so much Gary, thank you.

I use your love languages when I teach my clients about needs all the time. Thank you so much for having me in the blessing as you can hear there's an awful lot of the Valley and are featured resource is the book by Rita Scholl S CH ULT titled surviving suicide laws making your way beyond the ruins. Five love languages but I hope you join us next. As we opened the lines for your questions and comments are first dear Gary broadcast of the fall season comes your way. Thank you. Wiccan Janice Todd and thank you for joining us. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman's leading radio in association with Moody publishers ministry and violence