Virgin Birth Part 7

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A crash course Mormonism.com that's crash course Mormonism.com .1 Mormonism program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective view .1 Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome to this edition of your point on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Aaron shuffle all of my colleague at MRM for the past several broadcasts we been examining the teachings of Mormon leaders regarding the incarnation of Jesus. More specifically, whether or not they were really espousing what we know in Christianity is the topic of the virgin birth now in many of these past broadcasts we are bringing up statements made by Brigham Young and old leaders such as Orson Pratt and folks like that. James Talmage, Bruce McConkey had a more than might say well that's the old days I hear this a lot Aaron that will that was God's way in the past. Wait a minute. If they're all getting their information from the same source and the decrees of God are unalterable as it says in the book of Mormon and Alba, 41, eight then why is there just this distinction between the Mormonism of time passed and the Mormonism of the present Morning apologist give the impression we don't teach that we don't believe that.

But what I'm really interested in is do you have influential leaders claiming to be prophets and apostles who are responsible for long-standing traditional beliefs among your people that today are still persisting on repudiated it easy for them to distance themselves from the leaders of the past by say what we believe in a living prophet, we have living prophets that guide us today in my response that is very simple folks work those living prophets alive when they made those comments back then. And a lot of the living trust.

They were living leaders today just don't touch on a lot of these issues it's it's part of like generic morality. A lot of what you get is generic stuff in the pulpit today and a lot of what Mormons believe today isn't merely explicitly coming from the pulpit of Gen. conference. It's a kind of carry-on vestige humorously: zombie – and sometimes it's it's sort of like it's living but it's post inoculating may be some according to some people it's perpetuating. It's funny it's it's part of that that that massive heavy training of that of the momentum of of a Mormon tradition and we should mention that not only are we quoting Mormon leaders such as the prophets and the apostles of the Mormon church were also we been quoting from church curriculum which is supposed to be put together under the auspices of the first Presley quoted modern morning apologist Kevin Bernie meant a lot more respectable intellectual defenders of the Mormon church and some relative sense.

But you, Bill. I was at the BYU bookstore meeting with a friend for dinner and I always go into the bookstore at the rate and I look at the books of the vision bliss books, especially in the book called Mary, mother of Jesus by Bruce Donna Dana Dana were not quite sure how to pronounce a TA and we got it both ways. So we covered her face. It was published in 2001 continues to be sold. I got it in 2010 and I was just floored by mean this is being sold to know college BYU students and page 52 of this of this Mormon book sold at BYU bookstore. I should emphasize subheading 52 settings as Jesus Christ was born of a virgin is read as part the Scriptures emphasize that Mary was a virgin. This includes the time before and after the birth of Jesus until she was known by her husband Joseph. The question naturally arises if indeed the father and Mary conceived Jesus by a literal union.

How can Mary remain a virgin same question we ask to answer this intriguing question return once again to Elder Bruce McConkey for explanation.

This is him quoting McConkey. Mary was a virgin until after the birth of our Lord. Then for the first time she was known by Joseph, her husband and other children, both sons and daughters were born to her. She conceived and brought forth her firstborn son while yet a virgin because the father of that child was an immortal personage. So were not the only ones who are looking to McConkey to note that the explanations of this kind of thing Mormons are looking to McConkey as to explain this issue. Quoting on from Bruce Donna Dana from this explanation, we learn that Mary's virginity was retained because of the fact of that the conception of Jesus Christ was a union between a mortal woman and an immortal man.

Mary ceased being a virgin when she was known by Joseph, her husband, because that particular union was between a mortal man and a mortal woman. I feel like just yelling out and saying that's that that's what we been hearing from Mormon Mormons on the street that's what I've been hearing for Mormons on the Internet board.

Sometimes I mean that this is yet anyway.

So, the next what's really interesting is, even if you are as a as an intellectual defender of Mormonism were to somehow construe hat is not teaching that God the father had sexual relations with Mary, you ask yourself why the next chapter. Does the author have this title Jesus Christ's conception was not degrading. Some individuals quoting Bruce some individuals may believe that if there were a literal union between the father and Mary that this act would degrade God and debauch Mary Elder Melvin J. Ballard gives us inspired explanation and we've Artie quoted that the in the prior podcast on this. He goes on to say from these inspired and enlightening words.

We understand that mortals view the creative power differently than the four then the father for as Isaiah has well written for my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways to the Lord, by the way, I bet when Isaiah said that I don't think he ever imagined. Someday, a Mormon author including Ballard and Bruce here would construe that to justify the idea that God the father had sex with Mary, and I think you're right. I think you're right, that's a stretch. Elder Ballard has explained it so plainly. Bruce writes, yet powerfully that the creative power is the most sacred holy and divine function that can be performed by man and God. So go on, God the father is the most holy, righteous and pure minded of all men man of all men. Further, he has the most respect for women and womanhood above all others. When Mary was in his presence and he overshadowed her. He performed a most sacred and holy function with divine tenderness and love and respect. Thereby, he did not degrade or debase himself with or Mary this most righteous woman knew that while knew why she was in the father's presence. Gabriel explained this to her while she was in Nazareth. Would we be wrong to believe that she the spirit communicated about sacred things while she while she was being bodily transported to the presence of the highest further, would it not be unreasonable to believe that for a short length of time the veil was taken from her mind and she was able to see the presentation of the father's plan of salvation before his spirit children as well as her own calling for mortal mother of Jesus sum total here what you have is the teaching that God the father was able to have sexual relations with Mary and we read earlier, another quotes the Spirit empowered her basically to put it bluntly here. If this is our last podcast on this issue in the series, Mormon leaders, Mormon authors collectively here have taught that Mary needed the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to have sexual relations with God the father and that somehow that that did not take her away. Her status as virgin, and that afterwards she loved the whole thing is a beautiful sacred function and she said he has done great things to me and and and this is been celebrated by this Mormon author is a beautiful thing about the story of Mary this fits into the larger picture.

He feels like he has to justify. This is not being a degrading or botching thing by basically quoting Ballard is saying that the the function. The sacred function of sex is something that God has given a gift to all men to do and then that some other men abuse this other bit that while I think it needs to be restated to you bought this book at the BYU bookstore, so this is a book that students are probably buying, probably reading, probably embracing and really what he does in this book is quote a lot of the same people that we have been quoting Eddie Scully basically the same conclusion as we have. We get in trouble from Mormon apologists recording the same quotes open Mormon authors quote them somehow it's okay. He even says when he quotes that the Melvin J. Ballard quote he says from these inspired and enlightening words. This is speculative, you know, sort of throw in the trash opinion.

These guys take their own leaders very seriously.

They do, and it seems like the ones you don't taken very seriously are the very apologists that are supposed to be defending the Mormon faith. They are really what I have called the Mormon anti-Mormons think they don't agree with this stuff and yet they sustain these guys as leaders in the church. Every year hey fair hey farms pay shields instead of going after us for pointing out this not so virgin birth teaching of your leaders. Why aren't you going after Bruce E. Donna Dana in and Mary mother of Jesus, you know what, according quote anti-Mormon literature isn't sold the BYU bookstore but this is this is having an impact and influence on BYU college students. Do you care about them. You care more about you know, sort of sparring with us and and and criticizing us for pointing out the mistakes of your own leaders or are you going after you know Mormons who actually take your leaders seriously and quote the Stephanie I get upset about this and I don't blame you… That's me as well, but I think it's important to recognize the fact that there are many Mormons who have to try to downplay and even outright deny some of these conclusions that we get from reading these same quotations. There are Mormons who get the same conclusion as we do. Just by reading the words on the page.

If words have any meaning.

This has a significant meaning to it and you can't just throw it away and arbitrarily try to deconstruct and say well I think this is what they meant when the words don't prove that and next time it comes to celebrate Christmas and and on the radio here, but I'm looking her straight in the eye, my friends, you think about this issue. Can you with integrity celebrate Christmas when you have acquiesced or tolerated or accepted the teachings of your own leaders over God the father having sexual relations with Mary when you look at the baby Jesus in the manger.

When you think on the version of the story. When you sing silent night holy night round young version mother and child. When you sing those things can you do so with integrity not yet having repudiated and denied and disaffirmed what your leaders have a egregiously taught about the not so virgin birth of Jesus, and in them and the Mormon Jesus and Mary. Well as you can tell were pretty passionate about the subject and it does bother us as we hope it bothers you as well. We thank you for being with us in this edition viewpoint on Mormonism. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website at www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you'll join us again as we look at another viewpoint is all of us. It Mormonism research ministry. When you reach out and thank you for your kind support viewpoint on Mormonism. We hope that the information coming your way has been a help and encouragement as you share the hope we all have in Jesus Christ. During this holiday season. Would you playfully considering your intonation to MRM to help give us a much needed financial boost into the new year.

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