Interview with Tom Hobson Part 2

.1 Mormonism program and examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism.

Why is it that many latter-day Saints are not convinced by evidence welcome to this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry in with me today is Tom Hobson.

Tom is the author of a book titled the historical Jesus and historical Joseph Smith taught welcome to the show here with you, Bill yesterday show Tom. We were looking at your book and you have a section in it that I think is is worthy of talking about and I want to recap that as we go on today but you asked the question how can we know the facts, and then you list a number of subheadings here. Like multiple independent sources, embarrassment, dissimilarity, coherence, and rejection of this of course is in the context of demonstrating the person and divinity. I would say of Jesus himself, but US.

Also the question on page 5 of your book, but what good is evidence, and as you and I were talking before we started recording you have experienced the same thing that we have experience when talking to some Latter Day Saints that sometimes evidence doesn't seem to work as well as we would hope even though I would think most Latter Day Saints in everyday life. Use evidence when it comes to drawing conclusions. But what is your experience when talking with the Latter Day Saints and why this section in your book. What good is evidence, I find that we all tend to see evidence the way that we want to. Based on our own preconceived biases in the book tell the story about the mental patient was convinced that he was dead. Therapist ends up proving to him through all sorts of evidence that dead people don't believe in the therapist that stabs the patient in hand with the scalpel and the patient looks down at his bleeding hand and cried out after all. So that's how it tends to be that the testimony of the Holy Ghost for the LDS tend to overrule any amount of evidence that we would share and I definitely found that to be true in dialogue, evidence, and the Holy Ghost go hand-in-hand. On the one hand, God's spirit cannot authenticate all falsehood and so that's where the book fits in with trying to establish the facts because you claim that God has told you this but it's not backed up by facts. We need to consider whether this is God's spirit are not the role of evidence is to give us reasons why we should trust the testimony to Jesus or to Joseph Smith and not the testimony of countless Muslims or Hindus who have testimony to their own claims of faith. I think that's a great point and it's it's one of the problems that of course you're going to have when talking with a latter-day St. I recall so many times having discussions about Mormon history and how you could lay it out for the Latter Day Saints that this historical aspect of Mormonism doesn't seem to really demonstrate the point that they're trying to make it actually contradicts what they're saying and the seal it doesn't matter.

I've prayed about it. Therefore, I know it's true. It's like the evidence doesn't mean anything to them and actually use the phrase, sometimes with Latter Day Saints. Like why are you blaming the Holy Spirit for telling us something that he couldn't possibly have told you because you're right.

The Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us to all truth. He's not going to confirm something that's not true. The Holy Spirit also is there to help open our eyes to recognize evidence for what it is that's where prayer does kick in as being extremely important. I blog on the subject under the title pray about it not always can be found on the website, but basically when God has clearly spoken on the subject. Prayer becomes any invasion.

For example, the LDS person going to pray about whether it's okay to practice fornication even just one or they going to pray about whether it's okay to use mind altering drugs.

I don't think so. And as we look in the Bible we look at the Council of Jerusalem, the question whether Gentiles have to become Jews before they can follow Jesus. There may have been prayer at that conference, but the Bible doesn't mention prayer. The Bible gives us all sorts of coverage of the discussion based on Scripture good point. Sometimes I think we run the risk with we challenge a Mormon to abrasive Lee about his prayer life on this matter because usually they will be looking at us is saying we don't take prayer seriously and I had the correct Mormons who have assumed that with me and I say no I do take prayer very seriously, even to the point that I feel it is a sin to abuse, prayer, and I don't mean to be offensive in this, but I think when you use prayer to confirm some of the presuppositions that you choose to have your actually abusing prayer. Would you agree is when God is clearly spoken on the subject.

Prayer becomes an evasion where God is not clearly spoken, like, shall we call Pastor so-and-so to become our church's pastor, you have to go to prayer because the Bible didn't give us the name of the next pastor for our church so those are the kinds of places where prayer is crucial and as I just said said one of those places where prayer is crucial is for the Holy Ghost to open peoples eyes to see the evidence for what it is, no matter how smart we are, no matter how good the evidence. If God doesn't open the eyes getting going to get seen true you say on page 5 you say truth cannot be based on feelings and you cite Proverbs 1412 there is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way of death.

You gave the illustration of the death of John F. Kennedy Junior went on to relate that story to our listeners on July 16, 1999 John Kennedy was flying private claims he believed he was flying on a level course that's what his feelings were telling him. But in reality he and his passengers were plunging straight down to their death.

So the instruments in his cockpit told a different story than his feelings and we would say that the instruments of the cockpit would be the word of God. Unfortunately from our worldview we see Latter Day Saints ignoring those instruments on the cockpit and going by their subjectivism, which can be very, very dangerous. All we can do is continue to present the evidence of the instruments. Joseph's far reaching claims in this chapter, you list the Mormon doctrine of preexistence. Adam and Eve residing in Missouri and you also list in that chapter, among other things, the great apostasy.

Why should these be problematic for anyone who wonders if Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Chapter 10 the longest chapter in the book the subject of preexistence and Adam and Eve in Missouri. I kinda deal with. Briefly, Adam and Eve in Missouri and simply, it's the Bible versus versus Joseph. Nothing else really matters on that one on the preexistence of preexistence is a miniature reincarnation which creates problems for biblical doctrine of salvation, but preexistence is very important to LDS I found that reading both of those are of far less importance than the huge central claim made by Joseph Smith in the book of Mormon is the great apostasy that the church supposedly disappeared from the earth. True church at the end of the first century and then had to get restarted by Joseph Smith at the huge claim and to defend that you have to say that they clean and precious teachings have been removed from the Bible that the sub claim claims that the Bible is not translated correctly.

That's another sub claim and then you have the claim that the other church as it existed in the first century A.D. pretty much the same as the days LDS church, and I can give you the details, what they say.

The early church look like and again we just take that apart it's not true. You talk about the plane and precious things.

Let's discuss that because on page 62 you asked the question has anything plain and precious been removed from the Bible. And of course your siding from first Nephi 1328 in the book of Mormon which is where for the LCS that after the book have gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God talk to us about what you have in the book regarding that very issue.

Basically, the heretic marks Jan back in the second century. Around 140 A.D., trying to remove huge amount of plain and precious things from the Bible basically tried to cut out anything Jewish. The problem is that he failed miserably.

In fact, all of our copies of the Bible have everything in them that he tried to cut out the only place you can find any copies of Marcy on a chop job Bible are quoted from the early Christian leader Tertullian, but otherwise his attempt to to do this is a colossal failure to me that is a huge argument against Joseph's claim that any items on this scale could have been removed from the Bible that otherwise would have proved his gospel or his church, you look at the book of Ephesians and there are there copies of Ephesians with and without the words in Ephesus in the the address line in verse one, which shows us there were two editions of Ephesians out there. We did not lose that fact we have enough evidence to show us that little alterations like that happened. So therefore the kind alterations that Joseph proposes have no basis in fact or evidence. Yet many Mormons agree with the premise found in article 8 of the articles of faith. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly very quickly. How should Christians respond to this charge will I have found very very few instances where translation makes any difference in what divides us. There is one particular play item I mentioned in the book from the book of Hebrews 724 where Jesus is said to hold an unchangeable priesthood. I translate unchangeable. It basically means literally on pass Hon. Jesus priesthood cannot be passed on to someone else so the Met Melchizedek priesthood. There was one and only one Melchizedek priesthood and that was Jesus himself and that's a translation difference. There are some other one or two others that I have put in a new version of the book just yell a couple of paragraphs here and there but that one. If nothing else is. That is the big translation item, where we disagree with been talking to Tom Hopson. He's the author of the book the historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith very quickly. Tom where can someone find a copy of this book go to historical Joseph.org historical Joseph.org right on the homepage are five links where the book can be purchased. The lowest price can be found in the link to church source.com. I also recommend the Utah lighthouse ministry. You tell them that or Tom Hopson's book the historical Jesus and the historical Joseph Smith, thank you for listening. If you would like me to research ministry.

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